Repeating weapons - Please fix them if they're in G&G


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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I'm definitely seeing some benefits with this weapon. You can be very john wick and mix grappling and shooting. Also, mixing the shield or dual wielding. It is a versatile weapon. It is a less demanding weapon. Sure, if you are just gonna shoot it is probably not great, but it offers a versatility that bows do not.


Unicore wrote:
DOes nimble shield hand work with a 1+ handed bow?

You can interact to reload and also you can hold another object in this hand: since it's not a 2 hand weapon, it seems fine to me. The only thing it doesn't allow is wielding a weapon but a 1+ hand weapon NEVER says the + hand is wielding the weapon, it's just "retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow": ie, Interacting with the bow.

Unicore wrote:
Nimble shield hand would let you use a hand cross bow and still reload, but I don't think it would allow you to use a regular sized shield and a bow.

I see nothing to prevent it: it requires a hand to wield and a free hand to interact with the bow. Looks good to me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't see how striking with a bow can be done with one hand. A 1+ weapon requires that you have the bow in one hand and a free hand to fire with. Nimble shield hand only lets you count as having a free hand for the purposes of using an interact action or holding an object. That is pretty clearly preventing you from counting as having a free hand for the purposes of firing a bow.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
If the goal posts are going to shift, they need to shift equally for both sides of the debate.

This entire discussion has assumed that the hand crossbow user has proficiency, which is 1-2 feats depending on whether or not you're a fighter. The discussion of dual wielding further assumed access to dual thrower, which is again another 2-3 feats depending on whether or not you're a fighter.

It seems weird to turn around and cry foul when someone suggests a feat or two that might benefit the archer when we're already giving the RHC user 1-5.

Now how much those feats help or tilt the scales one way or the other is a valid concern, but to suggest that it's somehow unfair for the archer to take any feats? That doesn't make sense.


Unicore wrote:
That is pretty clearly preventing you from counting as having a free hand for the purposes of firing a bow.

Exactly where in firing the bow is the off hand doing something other than an interact action? What action does the bow user do that is prevented/ The entire reload takes no extra time but is still an interact.

Please point to the exact part that is "pretty clearly preventing you from counting as having a free hand". Which of "retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow" isn't an interact and what exact action is then?

EDIT: Reload
Source Core Rulebook pg. 279
"While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action.: this shows that with reload 0 weapons, drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the interact action and action Nimble Shield Hand allows Interact actions.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You are not reloading a bow when you use a second hand to draw and aim an arrow. The 1+ hand description explains that the action "Strike" requires that you have the weapon in one hand, and you use the other hand in the process of making a strike action. A reload of 0 is not folding a free interaction reload action into a strike with a 1 handed weapon. While you are firing a bow, you are using it two handed.


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Knock the arrow->pull the bowstring are the same action done with the same hand (the one that isn't holding the bow). That one should be pretty obvious...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Exactly, they are a part of a strike action, not a separate interact action. Nimble shield only makes your shield hand a free hand for holding objects and performing interact actions. Not for making strikes with that hand. You couldn’t punch or grab some one with that hand either.


For a fighter, it seems like a good offhand weapon for a swordfighter. Sword and pistol style.


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I thought this was going to be about the difference between a magazine and a clip.


Unicore wrote:
Exactly, they are a part of a strike action, not a separate interact action.

Yes, that is my point: that's why it works.

Unicore wrote:
Not for making strikes with that hand.

That hand never strikes: it specifically used to "retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow" and none of those are Strike.

Unicore wrote:
You couldn’t punch or grab some one with that hand either.

Sure, that's because none of those are interact actions... Good thing that have is doing an interact action.

Dr A Gon wrote:
I thought this was going to be about the difference between a magazine and a clip.

LOL well yes, technically the clip feeds a magazine and a magazine feeds the weapon but there isn't a reason to worry about the in a RPG, especially in a fantasy one.

EDIT: to explain further, shooting a bow is an Activity
Source Core Rulebook pg. 461
"An activity typically involves using multiple actions to create an effect greater than you can produce with a single action, or combining multiple single actions to produce an effect that’s different from merely the sum of those actions. In some cases, usually when spellcasting, an activity can consist of only 1 action, 1 reaction, or even 1 free action."

The bow attack has 2 subordinate actions, Reload and Strike with reload taking one hand and strike taking the other. It's much like Twin Takedown where in a single action, you have each hand doing a different subordinate action.


graystone wrote:
Dr A Gon wrote:
I thought this was going to be about the difference between a magazine and a clip.
LOL well yes, technically the clip feeds a magazine and a magazine feeds the weapon but there isn't a reason to worry about the in a RPG, especially in a fantasy one.

Which is an odd statement in a game full of highly detailed, nuanced weapons :-)


Dr A Gon wrote:
graystone wrote:
Dr A Gon wrote:
I thought this was going to be about the difference between a magazine and a clip.
LOL well yes, technically the clip feeds a magazine and a magazine feeds the weapon but there isn't a reason to worry about the in a RPG, especially in a fantasy one.
Which is an odd statement in a game full of highly detailed, nuanced weapons :-)

Not so at all as there usually isn't anything gained by going into the nuts and bolts of reloading a magazine as in game you're usually just slapping in the mag and would only use the clip off scene. I mean, we don't get into the nuts and bolts like a reloading press, reloading die, ingot molds, powder measures, ect... Because of this, no matter how highly detailed and nuanced the weapon might be we don't go into details no one sees in game. ;)


graystone wrote:
Dr A Gon wrote:
graystone wrote:
Dr A Gon wrote:
I thought this was going to be about the difference between a magazine and a clip.
LOL well yes, technically the clip feeds a magazine and a magazine feeds the weapon but there isn't a reason to worry about the in a RPG, especially in a fantasy one.
Which is an odd statement in a game full of highly detailed, nuanced weapons :-)
Not so at all as there usually isn't anything gained by going into the nuts and bolts of reloading a magazine as in game you're usually just slapping in the mag and would only use the clip off scene. I mean, we don't get into the nuts and bolts like a reloading press, reloading die, ingot molds, powder measures, ect... Because of this, no matter how highly detailed and nuanced the weapon might be we don't go into details no one sees in game. ;)

Except for those weapons with the ability to use an internal or integral magazine (the M-1 Garand), which is loaded by slapping a clip into the weapon. Finally there are weapons that could be loaded with either method, and we still to work out how Golarion's repeating crossbows work, because the historical ones, mainly Chinese, usually used an integral magazine.

It's just like the longsword vs arming sword debate, but worse! :-)


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graystone wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Exactly, they are a part of a strike action, not a separate interact action.

Yes, that is my point: that's why it works.

Unicore wrote:
Not for making strikes with that hand.

That hand never strikes: it specifically used to "retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow" and none of those are Strike.

Unicore wrote:
You couldn’t punch or grab some one with that hand either.

Sure, that's because none of those are interact actions... Good thing that have is doing an interact action.

Dr A Gon wrote:
I thought this was going to be about the difference between a magazine and a clip.

LOL well yes, technically the clip feeds a magazine and a magazine feeds the weapon but there isn't a reason to worry about the in a RPG, especially in a fantasy one.

EDIT: to explain further, shooting a bow is an Activity
Source Core Rulebook pg. 461
"An activity typically involves using multiple actions to create an effect greater than you can produce with a single action, or combining multiple single actions to produce an effect that’s different from merely the sum of those actions. In some cases, usually when spellcasting, an activity can consist of only 1 action, 1 reaction, or even 1 free action."

The bow attack has 2 subordinate actions, Reload and Strike with reload taking one hand and strike taking the other. It's much like Twin Takedown where in a single action, you have each hand doing a different subordinate action.

so the hand holding the bow is performing a strike action and not the hand releasing the arrow? That doesn’t really make any sense. Both hands are being used in the strike action. You don’t have one hand only performing an interact action and one hand firing the arrow.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think unicore is right here. You specifically need a hand free to properly wield a 1+ weapon and Nimble Shield Hand only gives you a situational free hand, not a completely free hand.

Buckler would be fair game though.


Dr A Gon wrote:
Except for those weapons with the ability to use an internal or integral magazine (the M-1 Garand), which is loaded by slapping a clip into the weapon.

yeah, the en bloc clip is in a bit of an off place with an archaic loading system for a modern weapon. Good for a WWII game but not seen much out of there. I was thinking of the strip clips.

Dr A Gon wrote:
Finally there are weapons that could be loaded with either method, and we still to work out how Golarion's repeating crossbows work, because the historical ones, mainly Chinese, usually used an integral magazine.

Well, the M-1 Garand could be manually loaded with a single round for instance. Now the Chinese repeaters use an internal gravity feed mag but I've seen a mix of internal/external for others. The... lets call it a 'crossbow', that was with the repeating hand crossbow actually showed a clip but the 'crossbow' showed no magazine. :P

Dr A Gon wrote:
It's just like the longsword vs arming sword debate, but worse! :-)

LOL no, there is a different crowd here: historical ancient weapon semantics nerds are different from historical modern weapon semantics nerds and we have more of the former lurking around a fantasy game. ;)


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graystone wrote:
yeah, the en bloc clip is in a bit of an off place with an archaic loading system for a modern weapon. Good for a WWII game but not seen much out of there. I was thinking of the strip clips.

Clips are still common for heavy weapons. Which won't be a problem at all, until the giant instinct barbarian learns to shoot, or Alkenstar make a repeating rifle.

graystone wrote:
Dr A Gon wrote:
It's just like the longsword vs arming sword debate, but worse! :-)
LOL no, there is a different crowd here: historical ancient weapon semantics nerds are different from historical modern weapon semantics nerds and we have more of the former lurking around a fantasy game. ;)

Fantasy game?! I could claim steampunk or magitech when Guns and Gears arrives! Actually, Alkenstar probably already has steam tanks, but it's OK because all that will be uncommon!


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Unicore wrote:
so the hand holding the bow is performing a strike action and not the hand releasing the arrow? That doesn’t really make any sense. Both hands are being used in the strike action. You don’t have one hand only performing an interact action and one hand firing the arrow.

It NEVER says "Both hands are being used in the strike action."

Hands
Source Core Rulebook pg. 279
"To properly wield a 1+ weapon, you must hold it in one hand and also have a hand free." You only ever HOLD the weapon in one hand; The other hand is used to reload and reload says that it happens at in the same action as the Strike.

Secondly, if both hands must be used in the strike, that means you aren't wielding the bow anymore as you must have a free hand to do so... This mean reloading as a subordinate action works then firing as a subordinate action works but smashing it together and using 2 hands doesn't.

Squiggit wrote:
I think unicore is right here. You specifically need a hand free to properly wield a 1+ weapon and Nimble Shield Hand only gives you a situational free hand, not a completely free hand.

How do archers get a proficiency bonus if they don't properly wield the bow? The strike can never be required to use 2 hands as "To properly wield a 1+ weapon, you must hold it in one hand and also have a hand free."

Now if it's just a debate on the limitations on the free hand... I don't really see what the hand does that isn't an Interact so I don't see the issue: what kind of action are "retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow" if not an interaction?

Interact
Manipulate
Source Core Rulebook pg. 470
You use your hand or hands to manipulate an object or the terrain. You can grab an unattended or stored object, open a door, or produce some similar effect.

retrieve an arrow: manipulate an object, check.
nock an arrow: manipulate an object, check.
loose an arrow: manipulate an object, check. This is the only questionable one as an argument can be made for it to be Release but that ends up with unreasonable outcomes where you can pick up/hold items but not drop them.


Dr A Gon wrote:
Clips are still common for heavy weapons.

Well autocannons and such use them but that a but bigger than heavy IMO. ;) Now there are smaller weapons like the Type 11 Light Machine Gun, which comfortably fit into heavy, but it's got a funky hopper with multiple clips in it...

Dr A Gon wrote:
Fantasy game?! I could claim steampunk or magitech when Guns and Gears arrives!

We're in a game where you can load a heavy crossbow in 4 seconds and the playtest for firearms and flintlocks in 2 seconds: if that isn't fantasy, I don't know what it.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Unicore wrote:
I don't see how striking with a bow can be done with one hand.

It's actually rather simple. :P


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I made a new thread for discussing whether a character can use a short bow and a shield:

Does Nimble Shield Hand allow you to use a shield?

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