
NihilsticBanana |
So my group seems to love running campaigns with Gestalt, Which I mean, Is fair. It's fun if a bit broken at times XD But I often find myself getting confused as I try to make something cool often leading me to be the one who often makes uh- Bad/dumb combos? But I think I'm onto something here with this latest idea. I just need a little help in really making it all tie together?
So a dreadnaught barbarian gets dead calm... Which if you don't know what that is it's the replacement for rage that archetype gets. It reads as follows -
A dreadnought can enter a dispassionate killing spree as a free action, granting her additional combat prowess. The dreadnought gains only half the usual bonuses from her rage but takes no penalty to her AC, can use all her normal skills and effects that require concentration, and is not fatigued when her rage ends. The dreadnought cannot enter a rage for 1 minute after she ends her rage, and she cannot charge or run while under the effects of her rage.
which says to me if I'm not mistaken because they can use concentration stuff they can still cast spells even when in a rage- Which surely must be good for something right? Maybe it'll lend itself it being some kinda... Super... Melee witch- thing? Sure I could shoot for some other spellcasting class other than just like a witch but- Idk I just like the sound of a witch more so I wanna try and make that work? Can anyone help me figure something out here? Or is the effort just a lost cause?
I have a 25 point buy to work with if you need to know that and uh- Yeah. Thanks for all the help/advice in advance!

Ryze Kuja |

Barbarian+Witch are both going to be seriously competing for your Move Actions and Standard Actions. Also, Barb/Witch combo has a low Reflex save. I don't think this is a good class combo tbh. I think it's got a lot of flavor in mixing them, for sure, but your action economy is going to suffer.
I'd consider Brawler instead so you can get Hex Strike and now all 3 of your Saves will be Maxed. Your smashing face and Hexing will be synergized and happening simultaneously. Maybe Pummeling Charge and Quick Dirty Trick Master build, with Hexes? Pick up Boots of Haste and you'd be a 120ft-per-round Charge+Full-attack Debuffing machine that puts out a lot of dmg too.
Also, you'll probably want to use the Prehensile Hair Hex from the very start, as well as make liberal use of Frostbite. Maybe try to sneak Rime Spell in as an early feat, and get Magical Lineage: Frostbite for lots of lvl1 spell 1d6 cold dmg + Fatiguey+Entangley goodness. Then get a Cackling Hag's Blouse as soon as humanly possible.
Btw, are you playing with Drawback Traits? Any 3pp? What is your party comp and what level are you going to end roughly?

NihilsticBanana |
Btw, are you playing with Drawback Traits? Any 3pp? What is your party comp and what level are you going to end roughly?
Drawback traits yes, No 3pp, We currently have a pretty balanced team so I'm basically the one wild card, and in terms of what level are we ending? I'm not too sure- somewhere near level 10 would be my guess. Maybe 12.

NihilsticBanana |
Are you dead-set on Barbarian/Witch? Or does the Brawler/Witch sound interesting?
It's interesting, though I do need a bit more explanation there. Like- With the hex strike right? What hex would I be trying to apply with that most often? And when it comes to spells like frostbite or just- I guess any touch spell in general how does that mesh with doing unarmed strikes? Am I choosing to do one over the other? Is there a way so that I'm casting spells while I'm punching? or what? I am a bit worried about my ability scores being spread too thin there too- But I guess that was always going to be the case while trying to be a spell caster as well as a melee person.

Lelomenia |
Ryze Kuja wrote:Are you dead-set on Barbarian/Witch? Or does the Brawler/Witch sound interesting?It's interesting, though I do need a bit more explanation there. Like- With the hex strike right? What hex would I be trying to apply with that most often? And when it comes to spells like frostbite or just- I guess any touch spell in general how does that mesh with doing unarmed strikes? Am I choosing to do one over the other? Is there a way so that I'm casting spells while I'm punching? or what? I am a bit worried about my ability scores being spread too thin there too- But I guess that was always going to be the case while trying to be a spell caster as well as a melee person.
slumber hex is a a good option; if your Int will be terrible, Evil Eye gets you at least something on a successful save, and Misfortune is the go to if you expect to be fighting lots of constructs/undead/mind affecting immune.

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Consider Bloodrager, and the feat Mad Magic. It let's you cast spells from all classes while (blood)raging. And you keep full rage. With the Primalist archetype you can even keep rage powers.
Also consider Shaman as it gets some hexes (if that is what you were going for) and can cast in armor just fine since it's a divine caster.
Rage Prophet is kinda similar to what you are looking at, but Barbarian/Oracle.

avr |

It's interesting, though I do need a bit more explanation there. Like- With the hex strike right? What hex would I be trying to apply with that most often? And when it comes to spells like frostbite or just- I guess any touch spell in general how does that mesh with doing unarmed strikes? Am I choosing to do one over the other? Is there a way so that I'm casting spells while I'm punching? or what? I am a bit worried about my ability scores being spread too thin there too- But I guess that was always going to be the case while trying to be a spell caster as well as a melee person.
As I understand it - when you cast a touch spell you get one attack with it as a free action. This is just the touch attack, not an unarmed strike + touch rider. The next round though you can attack with unarmed strike + touch rider on each attack of a flurry or whatever, so long as your frostbite (or whatever) has attacks left. You can't flurry or otherwise make a full attack with touch attacks alone, pure touch attacks are limited to making one as a standard action.
Hex strike is limited to one hex that you choose when you get the feat. You probably choose one with a generally useful effect; evil eye (useful debuff, some effect even on successful save) or misfortune (applies to anything, not mind affecting) or slumber (brokenly good on whatever it does affect).

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A gestalt Barbarian | Witch is always going to be a weak option, because while you have two classes, you only have one set of stats. There isn't really one distribution that works well for both classes.
You might want to consider a Hexcrafter Magus if you're trying to combine melee and hexes.

VoodistMonk |

Elf or Half-Elf Slayer/Witch with Weapon Finesse, Elven Battle Training/Style/Focus feats... largely based on Dex and Intelligence... can melee and cast and hex and assassinate...
But also does absolutely nothing to answer your question. Hmm, how about the Scarred Witch Doctor before they changed it? Constitution is good for Barbarians, right?

NihilsticBanana |
But also does absolutely nothing to answer your question. Hmm, how about the Scarred Witch Doctor before they changed it? Constitution is good for Barbarians, right?
If my DM was cool enough to let me play that I'd be thinking of a completely different build XD Always wanted to give it a go, Not too sure why they changed it in the first place tbh. But it is what it is.

Lelomenia |
Yeah, from a mechanical standpoint, there’s a ton of anti-synergy and it’s not clear where the advantage is supposed to be. In general, i imagine with this gestalt some rounds you will be a low effectiveness witch (due to low int and lack of feats) and some round you will be a low effectiveness barbarian (due to dreadnought, lack of feats, and lower physical ability scores).
Issues:
Ability score needs of the classes conflict
Both classes have 0 bonus feats, and barbarian especially is a really a feat starved class to start with
Armor = arcane spell failure (no armor = death here)
Action economy as class features don’t combine efficiently
The Hex Strike concept at least gives you some synergy between Witch and Barbarian features, but as above, for a Hex Strike build Shaman/Brawler is much better in almost every way.
If you really do have your heart set on witch, Monk at least works around your armor issue (recommend Seducer Witch and Scaled Fist Unchained Monk). For a Barbarian pairing, Shaman is better.

Sysryke |
Gestalt can actually help cover a lot of ground. Had a party member who did a barbarian witch. Can't remember which archetype, but there are one or two others that let the barb keep her mind intact whilst raging. On the witch side she did white haired witch, for all the grapples. Mostly combat focused on the barb side, saved her spells for when range, buffs, utility, or spare healing was required. Player had a blast. The one major difference though, is we have a generous stat rolling system, we don't do point buy.

VoodistMonk |

Shaman or Divine Scourge Cleric could get you a handful of Hexes, divine 9th level casting, and Wisdom synergizes with Barbarian better, in my opinion.
You still only end up with two good saves... but you can cast in armor, so that should help. Wisdom-based casting helps Will saves, too, which is always nice.
Don't forget about the Viking Fighter or Wild Stalker Ranger for your Rage business. Pretty sure you can pull off Wisdom-based casting during normal Rage as long as it doesn't require concentration.
You might be able to find better synergy with a Ragechemist gestalt with a Witch... could be quite interesting, actually. Only 3/4 BAB, but all good saves. Purely Intelligence and Strength. Obviously still need Con, but that's a given for a frontline rager.

Ryze Kuja |

Ryze Kuja wrote:Are you dead-set on Barbarian/Witch? Or does the Brawler/Witch sound interesting?It's interesting, though I do need a bit more explanation there. Like- With the hex strike right? What hex would I be trying to apply with that most often? And when it comes to spells like frostbite or just- I guess any touch spell in general how does that mesh with doing unarmed strikes? Am I choosing to do one over the other? Is there a way so that I'm casting spells while I'm punching? or what? I am a bit worried about my ability scores being spread too thin there too- But I guess that was always going to be the case while trying to be a spell caster as well as a melee person.
Tbh, Evil Eye would be your bread n butter for Hex Strike. I would combine this with Cornugon Smash and a Cruel AOMF for Shaken/Sicken/EvilEye, and at level 8, your Evil Eye becomes -4 to AC, attack, or saves, etc., and that's a pretty significant debuff combo by itself. Pair that combo with Quick Dirty Tricks Master for 1 of your attacks = Blind or Sicken 1st round->Nauseate 2nd round, and by level 11-13 you'll be a lockdown specialist. Dirty Tricks Masters who land Nauseates is the ultimate lockdown, because nauseate = reduced to Move Actions only and Greater Dirty Trick = your DT conditions can only be removed with a Standard. With a Cackling Hag's Blouse, you can Cackle as a Swift when you can't afford to lose your full attack or a move action.
One big upside about a build like this is getting access to the Prehensile Hair Hex and having Rime Frostbite charges loaded on yourself, and anytime an enemy tries to go past your threatened area while trying to get your allies, you Entangle/Fatigue them with Prehensile Hair with an AoO. Also, if you go the Pummneling Charge feat line and pick up some boots of haste, you can charge 120ft and deliver a full attack, complete with a Dirty Trick (Blind) and a Hex. So this is a highly mobile build that allows you to control combat by putting enemies out of the fight just with debuffs, and by lvl 11ish, you should be dealing around 6-7 attacks on a charge, so this build features a lot of hurty-hurt too. AND, you're a witch. So whenever you want to sit back and cast spells/hexes, you're no slouch in that area either. Very versatile build and lots of survivability for you and your allies through debuffing enemies into being worthless.
I would even start a collection of Cursed Items, ideally finding a Necklace of Strangulation or something like it, and then use these with Beguiling Gift. Charge 120ft, Full Attack the BBEG w/ Hex Strike Evil Eye+ Shaken/Sicken for -8 to Saves, then round 2, use a Heightened Beguiling Gift (or turn Beguiling Gift into a Spell Hex), and hand the BBEG the Necklace of Strangulation. Then cast Summon Lawn Chair and Summon Popcorn.

Ryze Kuja |

So here's what I'm thinking
Human Brawler/Witch
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 18 (16 +2)
Wis 11
Cha 12
Alt Racial Traits:
You can replace Skilled if you want to, but it's not necessary
Traits:
Magical Lineage (Frostbite)
Bred for War or Heirloom Weapon (+ CMB)
I think Hex Strike is a feat that you don't "need" every battle, so I would leave this out of your build on purpose, and plug it in with Martial Flexibility whenever you want to use it. At level 6, you can use MF to gain 2 combat feats, and if you're going to be mostly a Witch in a particular encounter, you can plug in defensive combat feats like Dodge + Snake Style, or Dodge + Crane, or Imp/Greater Disarm, or if the situation calls for it, Throw Anything + Catch Off Guard. And then when you want to be an "in your face offense" in a particular encounter, you can MF Cornugon Smash + Hex Strike.
lvl1 Dirty Fighting, Human Bonus Feat: Rime Spell, Hex: Prehensile Hair
lvl2 Bonus Combat Feat: Power Attack, Hex: Evil Eye
lvl3 Improved Dirty Trick, Maneuver Training: DirtyTrick +1
lvl4 Hex: Cackle
lvl5 Combat Reflexes, Bonus Combat Feat: Pummeling Style
lvl6 Hex: Flight! <----- Get a Cruel Enchant for your AOMF by lvl 6
lvl7 Quick Dirty Trick, Maneuver Training: DT +2, Trip +1
lvl8 Bonus Combat Feat: Pummeling Charge, Hex: Misfortune, Slumber, or Coven, your choice
This is a Milestone level for this build because now you have Pummeling Charge. As of lvl 6, you could get two feats with MF as a Move action (Hex Strike + Cornugon Smash), and you could Fly 1min/level, but now at level 8 you can Full Attack at the end of a charge. So 120ft flying charges+full attack are now possible. Boots of Haste can bring this up to 180ft flying charges. And your First attack can deliver a Quick Dirty Trick as of lvl 7. And at lvl 8, your Evil Eye is a -4 penalty of your choice. So everything you really want to be doing is online from here until your campaign ends, and the rest is icing on the cake.
lvl9 Greater Dirty Trick
lvl10 Major Hex: Ice Tomb
lvl11 Any Feat (Suggested: Vicious Stomp, Spell Hex: Beguiling Gift, or Split Hex), Bonus Combat Feat: Dirty Trick Master, Maneuver Training: DT +3, Trip +2, Grapple +1,
lvl12 Hex: Any Hex
lvl13 Any Feat
Another huge benefit about the Brawler/Witch combo is the lack of a poor Save. All your Saves are Strong Saves.