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I could dig a variable duration additive. I'm just a little confused at the direction. If anything, so far the highlights were that mutagens have proved functional while bombs haven't - a small QoL change to mutagens won't help bomb-spammers.
Reminder that ever since the game released, the points of strength of Alchemists have been highlighted as long-duration buffs and wide availability of mid-power effects (whether they were considered sufficient has been argued ad nauseam). Removing said long duration, even if at times it may be inconvenient, goes against their most hard-to-obtain advantage.
There is value early mutagen termination if you want to juggle mutagen effects, but Revivifying Mutagen works fine for that. I would enjoy early termination baked into the items though if only to make people less scared of them. Energy and Drakeheart seem to scare people off less since you can opt out when the weakness is threatened
There is value early mutagen termination if you want to juggle mutagen effects, but Revivifying Mutagen works fine for that. I would enjoy early termination baked into the items though if only to make people less scared of them. Energy and Drakeheart seem to scare people off less since you can opt out when the weakness is threatenedI could dig a variable duration additive. I'm just a little confused at the direction. If anything, so far the highlights were that mutagens have proved functional while bombs haven't - a small QoL change to mutagens won't help bomb-spammers.
Reminder that ever since the game released, the points of strength of Alchemists have been highlighted as long-duration buffs and wide availability of mid-power effects (whether they were considered sufficient has been argued ad nauseam). Removing said long duration, even if at times it may be inconvenient, goes against their most hard-to-obtain advantage.
While it's nice Energy has an escape hatch, it's only there once you get 11+ of that mutagen.
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No, because then everyone starts going for alchemical items because it's a bonus that stacks with everything else, no matter what level they're at. Then they become functionally necessary to keep up.
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Graystone the item bonus thing goes back to 1 of my chief complaints.
Alchemical items should have given a +1/+2 alchemical bonus. Then higher level version could actually get new abilities instead of "its the same but +1".
As Cyouni said, it would become a mandatory part of upkeep.
More mathematically, if a +1 is roughly equivalent to a +10% (damage, defense, and so on) then the value of a +1 depends on your level, and therefore is worth different monetary amounts.It’s why Cat’s Eye, Silverhseen and other non-numerical elixirs are so strong. The benefits scales with level (25% more hits, +1 dmg/lv), the cost does not, so you can have several of them at close to no cost (and you always should).
Ps. No, -(neg20%)=+25%.
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Graystone the item bonus thing goes back to 1 of my chief complaints.
Alchemical items should have given a +1/+2 alchemical bonus. Then higher level version could actually get new abilities instead of "its the same but +1".
As Cyouni said, it would become a mandatory part of upkeep.
More mathematically, if a +1 is roughly equivalent to a +10% (damage, defense, and so on) then the value of a +1 depends on your level, and therefore is worth different monetary amounts.It’s why Cat’s Eye, Silverhseen and other non-numerical elixirs are so strong. The benefits scales with level (25% more hits, +1 dmg/lv), the cost does not, so you can have several of them at close to no cost (and you always should).
Ps. No, -(neg20%)=+25%.
Honestly, this is a good reminder for me to pick up some of those, since I don't have them on stock. My party thanks you.
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Honestly, this is a good reminder for me to pick up some of those, since I don't have them on stock. My party thanks you.Graystone the item bonus thing goes back to 1 of my chief complaints.
Alchemical items should have given a +1/+2 alchemical bonus. Then higher level version could actually get new abilities instead of "its the same but +1".
As Cyouni said, it would become a mandatory part of upkeep.
More mathematically, if a +1 is roughly equivalent to a +10% (damage, defense, and so on) then the value of a +1 depends on your level, and therefore is worth different monetary amounts.It’s why Cat’s Eye, Silverhseen and other non-numerical elixirs are so strong. The benefits scales with level (25% more hits, +1 dmg/lv), the cost does not, so you can have several of them at close to no cost (and you always should).
Ps. No, -(neg20%)=+25%.
Shout out to higher level Leaper's Elixirs. Handing out a 25 foot vertical leap on demand is actually pretty great.
Shout out to higher level Leaper's Elixirs. Handing out a 25 foot vertical leap on demand is actually pretty great.Honestly, this is a good reminder for me to pick up some of those, since I don't have them on stock. My party thanks you.Graystone the item bonus thing goes back to 1 of my chief complaints.
Alchemical items should have given a +1/+2 alchemical bonus. Then higher level version could actually get new abilities instead of "its the same but +1".
As Cyouni said, it would become a mandatory part of upkeep.
More mathematically, if a +1 is roughly equivalent to a +10% (damage, defense, and so on) then the value of a +1 depends on your level, and therefore is worth different monetary amounts.It’s why Cat’s Eye, Silverhseen and other non-numerical elixirs are so strong. The benefits scales with level (25% more hits, +1 dmg/lv), the cost does not, so you can have several of them at close to no cost (and you always should).
Ps. No, -(neg20%)=+25%.
Well, assuming you can make the 25 DC athletics check... Even those that focus on strength can end up with a roll that'll leave them with a 10' jump for 55gp. Now if you have someone with assurance athletics, and can make/exceed 25, you only need the lesser level 1 version as the greater only changes the minimum distance [10'-15'].
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Don't forget Vermin Repellent Agent if the GM permits access to it, for a level 3 item it provides an Item Bonus to Poison AND also forced Will Save for any Arthropods, Insects, and Invertebrates that would attempt an Attack against the user that can frighten off bugs or even swarms of creatures.
VERY solid as a daily prepare, long term craft/purchase, or even better with Quick Alchemy if you're surprised by those nasty buggers.
No, because then everyone starts going for alchemical items because it's a bonus that stacks with everything else, no matter what level they're at. Then they become functionally necessary to keep up.If only becomes necessary to keep up if Paizo give them to everyone. Also I never said to remove the penalties, or to reduce the higher level penalties.
As it is right now an Alchemical item of your level is already a +1. So all that making it a separate bonus does is keep it consistent. Does this make buying/making a low level mutagen much better? Maybe. But that could had been fixed by making the penalty level dependent. Or maybe making it so the low tier version has a higher penalty then the high tier one; Then you are paying for having less downsides as opposed to paying to keep up with basic items.
Ok, so you want to make lower level versions more punishing, or have higher level versions basically a bonus that stacks with everything for little-to-no cost?
All so that you...benefit people already fully invested in a thing more. This can only go well, looks at PF1, yep. Not like we don't have years of examples of how min-maxing like that was a standard thing that led to higher expected numbers across the board.
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X+1 item bonus or +1 untyped bonus with some mechanic to compel using appropriately leveled items is basically six of one and half a dozen of the other.
It wouldn't really change anything about how mutagenists play, either. I'm sure you could make it work with the right tuning, I just don't see how it really accomplishes anything or helps address the mechanical deficiencies of mutagenist characters.
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Wait a minute, wasn't one of the big problems with the Alchemist that people actually agree on is how rough the early game is? Wouldn't making the penalties for low level mutagens even more severe just make that even worse?
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Wait a minute, wasn't one of the big problems with the Alchemist that people actually agree on is how rough the early game is? Wouldn't making the penalties for low level mutagens even more severe just make that even worse?
I don't use mutagens now because if the penalties so increasing them wouldn't change that in the least. :P
Hint: There's a reason I said it in that fashion.
Also, after thinking and seeing no one answer I'll say the one valid criticism I see: Making it a +1 makes it so you can't turn a bad stat or skill into a good one. Cyouni's comment about "benefiting those who are invested" is what made me see the line, even if he was talking about minmaxing increasing the baseline.Again (can't recall if I suggested it in this thread or the other one running simultaneously): we already have a mechanic for turning a milksop into a combat monster. It's called a battle form.
We don't have that for skills though, right?
Wait a minute, wasn't one of the big problems with the Alchemist that people actually agree on is how rough the early game is? Wouldn't making the penalties for low level mutagens even more severe just make that even worse?Yes right now everyone gets basically the same benefits from mutagens and the alchemist gets the short end to pay for having versatility. But if they were more painful doesn't that open up Mutagenist to have a feature to make it less painful?
No.
Mutagens being a little better for mutagenists is not a horrible concept, but they are also a major part of Bomber's power, just like Abjuration is a strong contributor to Evokers. Nerfing it for bombers just nerfs bombers, who really, really do not need it.
If anything one should consider incentivating bombers to use more of their non-bomb items, as they are essential to a solid build. This just pushes more people into the trap of building 15 bombs to waste.
I mean let's be honest I don't prepare 15 mutagens either. You need a mix, or you will just plain suck. As many pointed out.
Yeah, I *just* started playing a 1st Level Bomber (exactly 1 PFS2e session to date) and there's no way I would be playing this build without Quicksilver Mutagen.
Right now, my mix is 9 bombs (6 Acid Flasks, 3 Bottled Lightning, although I'm open to switching that ratio up), 2 Quicksilver Mutagens, and 1 unused reagent for pulling a rabbit out of the hat with Quick Alchemy. If nothing else, at the end of the day I can use it to heal up a bit from the damage of drinking Quicksilvers. :D
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Yeah, I *just* started playing a 1st Level Bomber (exactly 1 PFS2e session to date) and there's no way I would be playing this build without Quicksilver Mutagen.
Right now, my mix is 9 bombs (6 Acid Flasks, 3 Bottled Lightning, although I'm open to switching that ratio up), 2 Quicksilver Mutagens, and 1 unused reagent for pulling a rabbit out of the hat with Quick Alchemy. If nothing else, at the end of the day I can use it to heal up a bit from the damage of drinking Quicksilvers. :D
Taking 4 damage before even counting enemy damage sounds bad to me at 1st... I've found myself eating dirt several times at 1st without damaging myself. It's like having 8 less Con for hp. :P
Yeah, you gotta be careful with it. Thinking of taking some Medicine feats to help heal up. The first dose isn't too bad... Just knocks you down to Wizard level. (And like a Spellcaster, Bombers try to stay in the back a bit.) But if you don't heal in-between, subsequent doses can be a real problem.
Yeah, you gotta be careful with it. Thinking of taking some Medicine feats to help heal up. The first dose isn't too bad... Just knocks you down to Wizard level. (And like a Spellcaster, Bombers try to stay in the back a bit.) But if you don't heal in-between, subsequent doses can be a real problem.
Well a normal longbow can do 26 hp damage at range and a greatpick 36 in melee [both without str which might do extra]. I'm not very keen on increasing the chance of being dropped in a single hit. It's why I looked at it, said 'heck no', and never looked back. I figured I'd do more damage standing up than laying unconscious. ;)
Well a normal longbow can do 26 hp damage at range and a greatpick 36 in melee [both without str which might do extra].
Yeah, well, that's the game. On average, a longbow is going to do around 14-15 pts on a critical. It's going to be a problem for a lot of characters, particularly mine . But, my vision of the character includes that bit of a self-destructive impulse. He's going to take any advantage he can get, even the risky sort.
On the plus side, he's got a maxed armor class. He's not any more of a crit risk than any other. If the GM gets lucky, the GM gets lucky.
How would it be if didn't have to keep up with item bonuses, but also gave some ability like Drakeheart mutagen?
I gotta agree with Cyouni amongst others. Making Mutagens stack with Item bonuses is a direction I would consider unwise.