Alchemist Perfumer and Effervescent Bombs

[Bernt]

I dont understand how the effervescent bombs are supposed to work. How do they work with the discoveries that specify a "direct hit"?

Usually there is an extra effect or damage with the direct hit. Does that just not work with the perfumer?

[Firebug]

Perfumer Alchemist archetype.

Perfumer wrote:

Effervescent Bombs (Su): Rather than deal direct damage, a perfumer’s bombs create an effervescent puddle in a 5-foot radius for a number of rounds equal to the alchemist’s intelligence bonus (minimum 1). Each creature within this area takes 1d4 points of fire damage immediately and again each round it remains within or enters the puddle. A creature caught in the puddle when it is first created can attempt a Reflex save (DC = 10 + half the perfumer’s level + the perfumer’s Intelligence modifier) for half damage. The effervescent bombs’ damage increases by 1d4 at 3rd level and every odd level thereafter. Effervescent bombs otherwise functions as bombs, and discoveries that apply to bombs apply to effervescent bombs.

This alters bomb.

Some bomb discoveries wrote:

Acid Bomb: Creatures that take a direct hit from an acid bomb take an additional 1d6 points of acid damage 1 round later.

Concussive Bomb: Creatures that take a direct hit from a concussive bomb are deafened for 1 minute unless they succeed at a Fortitude save.
Force Bomb: Creatures that take a direct hit from a force bomb are knocked prone unless they succeed on a Reflex save.
Frost Bomb: Creatures that take a direct hit from a frost bomb are staggered on their next turn unless they succeed on a Fortitude save.

So, the Perfumer throws a bomb just like a normal Alchemist.

When throwing a splash weapon you can choose to target an individual or a grid intersection.

Throw Splash Weapon wrote:

... A hit deals direct hit damage to the target and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. ... You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature.

A normal Alchemist targets a creature and hits, direct damage to the target and creatures adjacent take splash damage. Since the target was hit, apply any additional effects from the bomb type. Rounds after the first, nothing.

A Perfumer Alchemist targets a creature and hits, no direct damage to the target and creatures adjacent take splash damage(presumably, since that's not direct damage and it otherwise functions as a bomb). Since the target was hit, apply any additional effects from the bomb type. Rounds after the first, no hit roll required, just auto deal the damage listed. No hit, no additional effects.

Normal Alchemist targets grid intersection, splash damage to all, no direct targets hit, no additional effects from bomb type. Rounds after the first, nothing.
Perfumer Alchemist targets grid intersection, splash damage to all, no direct targets hit, no additional effects from bomb type. Rounds after the first, no hit, no additional effects.

[Diego Rossi]

You trade less damage for a true area effect for your bomb full damage.
I don't think that you can't make a direct hit with an effervescent bomb.

Edit: maybe Firebug is right. But if he is right, you get a 5' puddle around your target, so a 15' diameter puddle, not a 10' diameter one.

Badly written.

[Firebug]

Diego Rossi wrote:

You trade less damage for a true area effect for your bomb full damage.

...
Badly written.

Seconded. Sure you get a smaller die size, but if you have a party with forced movement, its basically tons of extra damage with no save. Level 1 20 Int alchemist is doing nearly 40 damage per bomb if only one enemy just stands in it for the full 5 rounds. Maybe for balance reasons drop the +Int to damage the puddle damage.

Compared to Immolation Bomb (which confusingly stacks), where it drops the damage to 1d6+int but reoccurs (and resplashes...) for a number of rounds equal to the number of dice you would normally throw. Effervescent is instead full damage (but d4s) for number of rounds = Int mod. Together? Primary gets immolation effect and resplashes, but still leaves a puddle that deals full damage?

[Chell Raighn]

Firebug wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

You trade less damage for a true area effect for your bomb full damage.

...
Badly written.

Seconded. Sure you get a smaller die size, but if you have a party with forced movement, its basically tons of extra damage with no save. Level 1 20 Int alchemist is doing nearly 40 damage per bomb if only one enemy just stands in it for the full 5 rounds. Maybe for balance reasons drop the +Int to damage the puddle damage.

Compared to Immolation Bomb (which confusingly stacks), where it drops the damage to 1d6+int but reoccurs (and resplashes...) for a number of rounds equal to the number of dice you would normally throw. Effervescent is instead full damage (but d4s) for number of rounds = Int mod. Together? Primary gets immolation effect and resplashes, but still leaves a puddle that deals full damage?

Effervescent Bombs already don’t get the int to damage that normal bombs do...

[Nyerkh]

As I understand it : you don't target a creature, there's no direct hit and probably no splash damage either. The Perfumer's bombs presumably aren't even splash weapons.
Which does make a bunch of discoveries fairly useless for that specific archetype, but that's hardly unusual.
On the other hand, there's no downside to picking something that sets your bomb dice to d4s since that's your baseline. Even the 1 or 2 that explicitly downgrade dice size are less impactful.
Along with a few other unexpected benefits and weird interactions.

Effervescent Bombs - and the Perfumer in general - certainly could have benefited from a clearer wording (Persistent Pheromones almost bothers me more).
A shame, I otherwise like the archetype.
Still I don't think all those bomb things are major issues for the Perfumer, as it's geared much more for a support/tactical/utility role that a straight up mad bomber.

[Firebug]

Chell Raighn wrote:

Effervescent Bombs already don’t get the int to damage that normal bombs do...

Perfumers still have the Alchemist's version of Throw Anything which gives +Int on Splash Weapons. It's just that the class designer also baked that into the Bombs class feature as well for clarity.

Effervescent Bombs does not say it is no longer a splash weapon, nor does it say it doesn't deal splash damage. In fact, it says it otherwise functions as a bomb, so it must still have splash damage. Creating a puddle is probably more of a splash than a normal explosive version... at least thematically.

Effervescent Bombs does not say you can't target a creature, just that you don't deal direct damage. As I have pointed out already, not dealing direct damage is separate from targeting. If they meant you can't direct target, they should have said so. Example: Dye Arrow deals no direct damage but is still targeted like a normal arrow(well, vs touch).

Nyerkh wrote:

Effervescent Bombs - and the Perfumer in general - certainly could have benefited from a clearer wording (Persistent Pheromones almost bothers me more).

The way I read Persistent Pheromones is that it only affects atomizers with Pheromones in them. The mutagen replacement, not all atomizers which the extracts come in.