Hello,
For once i want to try and make a necromancer but when i read the rules i got a little lost and got some questions :
1. When you make a Variant like bloody skeleton, it increase the CR of 1, does it increase the number of HD too?
2. I saw some people speaking a lot about the fact that you cant use animate dead to create a skeleton champion but i cant find the rule on d20pfsrd but i find it one archive of nethys, did they miss it or does it get changed?
2.1. If there isn't a way to create a skeleton champion is there any way to get a human undead who keep his HD?
3. do you recommend some feats?
4. Apart from the Skeleton, zombie and Frostfallen, is there any other template that can be applied by animate dead?
That's all i think, thanks for reading
5. In the spell description at no moment it is written that you must take the corpse stats, is it because it's obvious or is it written somewhere else?
Hi there.
1) No. The variant powers already justify the CR increase. If you would get the additional HD on top (based on the new CR), you'd basically get the variant powers for free. But it sounds like you are a player - CR is mostly a GM's concern, not yours.
2) IMO the best source is the most recent English book. Archives of Nethys and translations come second, since they are very careful with adopting rules. d20PFSRD is sometimes sloppy, so it should only be used in conjunction with other sources. So, the most recent Core Rulebook says:
Animate Dead description wrote: "This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) that obey your spoken commands." A skeletal champion has its own entry in the Bestiary, so it's different from a skeleton. If a player wants to create skeletal champions, they need a book that allows that.
5) The rules about stats are in the Bestiary:
Quote: A skeleton’s Dexterity increases by +2. It has no Constitution or Intelligence score, and its Wisdom and Charisma scores change to 10. Quote: Str +2, Dex –2. A zombie has no Con or Int score, and its Wis and Cha become 10. Templates modify a base creature to a certain extent. If a change is not mentioned (explicit or implicit), it doesn't happen. So skeletons keep their Strength and get their Dexterity increased, while zombies get a Strength boost at the expense of Dexterity.
ok thanks for your answers, the 5. was because my GM told me that when you use animate dead you set the number of HD of the undead (exemple if you raise a human lvl 7 you can set him up to have 12 HD, wich i think is wrong) cause there is no mention in the spell that say that you must apply the skeleton/zombie template to the corpse, so to argue with that i would have love to find some rule or even one of tweet of paizo staff that explain it more more specifically but i dont think i will find it :/
From the Skeleton page on AoN, and bolded for answers to your questions: Variant Skeletons wrote: Numerous variant skeletons exist, such as those whose bones burn with an unending fire and those who drip with gore and reassemble themselves over time. Both of these variant skeletons(referring to bloody and burning skeletons) can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting. Once controlled, they count normally against the controller’s limit.
Perhaps the most dangerous variant skeleton, though, is the skeletal champion. This skeleton retains its intellect, and often any class levels it possessed in life. A skeletal champion cannot be created with animate dead—these potent undead only arise under rare conditions similar to those that cause the manifestation of ghosts or via rare and highly evil rituals.
Each of the following skeleton types modifies the base skeleton in a few key ways. Except as noted, these variations can be stacked with one another—it’s possible to have a bloody burning skeletal champion.
1. Bloody skeleton doesn't gain bonus HD, but counts as double for purposes of creating.
2a?. Cannot, you must use a different spell. They were wrong.
2b?. Juju Zombie might get you what you are looking for. Mark of thevoted is probably the easiest way to get that going, or giving your recruits Wendifisa Spears. There are other, more powerful, undead that keep their class levels. But are not spell created. Graveknight, Lich, etc. Maybe planar binding on a Nabasu with the Improved Death Stealing feat would also allow you to start creating Juju Zombies.
3. Feats for what? The undead? The caster?
4. Exoskeleton
You don't get to set the HD of humanoid undead via animate dead. They come back as 1 HD human skeletons (or 2 HD zombies). Skeleton wrote: A skeleton drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d8s. Creatures without racial HD are treated as if they have 1 racial HD. Humans don't have racial HD so are treated as 1 HD.
Creating undead via Animate Dead should almost never animate humanoids. Animals are much better.
So is the GM arguing that...
A: You do apply the template and is just missing that text (drop class levels completely, racial HD only, treat as 1 if less)
B: Arguing that you don't apply the template and use the base Human Skeleton from the Bestiary
C: None of the above and just make up whatever you feel like if you have enough Onyx?
Nothing in the spell description allows for changing the base HD of the creature. When the spell talks about creating a number of HD of undead, it talks only about a limiting factor to the spell. If you can animate only 8HD of undead and you try to raise a 10HD creature the spell fails, however if you try to raise two 4HD creatures it will raise them both, or if you tried to raise a 6HD creature and a 4 HD creature you would only be able to raise one of them per casting.
To add on, since zombies and skeletons have no int score, they lose all their feats and have none.
Firebug wrote: From the Skeleton page on AoN, and bolded for answers to your questions:Variant Skeletons wrote: Numerous variant skeletons exist, such as those whose bones burn with an unending fire and those who drip with gore and reassemble themselves over time. Both of these variant skeletons(referring to bloody and burning skeletons) can be created using animate dead, but they count as twice their normal number of Hit Dice per casting. Once controlled, they count normally against the controller’s limit.
Perhaps the most dangerous variant skeleton, though, is the skeletal champion. This skeleton retains its intellect, and often any class levels it possessed in life. A skeletal champion cannot be created with animate dead—these potent undead only arise under rare conditions similar to those that cause the manifestation of ghosts or via rare and highly evil rituals.
Each of the following skeleton types modifies the base skeleton in a few key ways. Except as noted, these variations can be stacked with one another—it’s possible to have a bloody burning skeletal champion.
1. Bloody skeleton doesn't gain bonus HD, but counts as double for purposes of creating.
2a?. Cannot, you must use a different spell. They were wrong.
2b?. Juju Zombie might get you what you are looking for. Mark of thevoted is probably the easiest way to get that going, or giving your recruits Wendifisa Spears. There are other, more powerful, undead that keep their class levels. But are not spell created. Graveknight, Lich, etc. Maybe planar binding on a Nabasu with the... He is arguing that you can set up the HD number without looking at the HD that the corpse has before his death since its not written that you MUST take the HD of the corpse in the spell
Chell Raighn wrote: Nothing in the spell description allows for changing the base HD of the creature. When the spell talks about creating a number of HD of undead, it talks only about a limiting factor to the spell. If you can animate only 8HD of undead and you try to raise a 10HD creature the spell fails, however if you try to raise two 4HD creatures it will raise them both, or if you tried to raise a 6HD creature and a 4 HD creature you would only be able to raise one of them per casting. i know but since its not written "You must apply the skeleton and zombie template to the creature that you raise" its hard to convince him
How is making a skeleton/zombie without applying the template?
Animated Objects?
Firebug, I like Mark of the Devoted on JuJu Oracles, going into Agent of the Grave as quickly as possible. Grab Undead Servitude and Spirit Vessels.
Agent of the Grave's capstone ability, Undead Initiate, means you retain your Intelligence and free will when you become Undead... in this specific case, a JuJu Zombie, due to Mark of the Devoted.
Honestly, I highly recommend Agent of the Grave for anyone serious about necromancy.
First off, IMO the best necromancer is the undead lord cleric.
That being said, this is a great article on how many skeletons you can have
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjRWFhSWc1ZzAzaDg/edit
Quote: i know but since its not written "You must apply the skeleton and zombie template to the creature that you raise" its hard to convince him Hrm, Animate Dead has this first sentence:
Core Rulebook wrote: This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) that obey your spoken commands. If he insists on his ruling, he actually makes the necromancer stronger. Finding corpses with enough HD (to be combat relevant) becomes way easier, and you will be at the animate dead HD limit more quickly. Maybe he didn't consider that side effect yet.
It sounds like your GM is thinking about Create Undead, honestly.
All Necromancers are valid. Welcome to the club!
For a fun BBEG, you can effectively gain 9D8 Undead JuJu Zombie racial HD resetting a Human Mark of the Devoted JuJu Oracle 4/Agent of the Grave 5 into an Intelligent Undead JuJu Zombie... no class levels, but still has their Intelligence/free will... and 9D8 racial HD as a JuJu Zombie...
Adding class levels to a monster incudes built in stat adjustments... which will help losing all your stats outside of Intelligence... so absolutely dump everything/spike Intelligence on the original build... be a Wizard JuJu Zombie this go-around. Lol.
9D8 with a preset Cha of 10 is ~40hp.
JuJu Zombie Human Wizard with class levels... could have a ~24 Intelligence at level "1"...
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