Who you calling Tiny? (Or help with how to get as small as possible)

[Skrayper]

So I know the basics if you are trying to be of small stature:

1. Pick a small race

Then there's the semi-obvious

2. Permanency Reduce Person

That said, the race I was really hoping to be, Kitsune, is medium, but the goal is to be as tiny as possible.

Presuming that I have not heard back if a "Polymorph Any Object" during character creation is ruled out or not (starting at 14th level) and absolutely NOT wanting to Power Game it, what are the best ways of getting as small as possible presuming both PoA being allowed and not allowed?

I was wondering, if you use Permanency Reduce Person, and a Greater Hat of Disguise (Alter Self), does the Alter Self *set* you as a Small size (presuming you pick that), or do you get "Small" and then the Reduce Person kicks in and you are "Tiny"?

So basically trying to make something akin to a fairy. The tinier the better.

[Ryze Kuja]

8th lvl Druids can become Diminutive animals with wild shape, which is 1/8th lb. to 1 lb. For reference, a Hummingbird is 1/6th-ish of a lb. As long as you have Natural Spell feat and decent stealth, you can rain all kinds of hell down on a battlefield without ever being seen or targeted.

Pick up Natural Spell, Skill Focus (Stealth) and Hellcat Stealth feats, and now you can Cast a Spell as a Standard action while Wild Shaped, and then perform a Stealth Check while being actively viewed as a Move Action (with a -10 penalty). If they can't pass the Perception check, they can't see you, if they can't see you, they can't target you with spells.

As a Diminutive-sized Druid with Stealth feats and a couple of Stealth items, you could be rocking Stealth checks in the 60-80 range by lvl 10ish even with the -10 penalty if you're actively being viewed.

[Skrayper]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

8th lvl Druids can become Diminutive animals with wild shape, which is 1/8th lb. to 1 lb. For reference, a Hummingbird is 1/6th-ish of a lb. As long as you have Natural Spell feat and decent stealth, you can rain all kinds of hell down on a battlefield without ever being seen or targeted.

Pick up Natural Spell, Skill Focus (Stealth) and Hellcat Stealth feats, and now you can Cast a Spell as a Standard action while Wild Shaped, and then perform a Stealth Check while being actively viewed as a Move Action (with a -10 penalty). If they can't pass the Perception check, they can't see you, if they can't see you, they can't target you with spells.

As a Diminutive-sized Druid with Stealth feats and a couple of Stealth items, you could be rocking Stealth checks in the 60-80 range by lvl 10ish even with the -10 penalty if you're actively being viewed.

That is... well, absurdly awesome.

I probably should have prefaced it with wanting a specific class (Arcane Trickster), so as to avoid any class-specific options. That said, the druid build is certainly tempting and interesting.

[Ryze Kuja]

You can still do a tiny-stealthy-caster build as a Halfling (or any small race) Arcane Trickster with a Permanent Reduce Person spell for 2,500gp+Tip, and become Tiny-sized (1 lb.-8 lbs). As a Kitsune, you could do the same thing but you'd only become Small-sized (8lb-60lb), but the build still works. You really just need the Stealth items and feats to make it good. Small gives +4 Stealth, Tiny gives +8 Stealth, and Diminutive gives +12 Stealth. You also get 1/2 of these aforementioned bonuses to Fly checks.

Check out This Linky and check the Size Modifiers to Fly and Stealth.

So if I were you, I'd get a Ring of Chameleon Power for +10 competence bonus to Stealth, Child of the Moon Trait for +1, +2, or +4 Stealth depending on the Moon, Potions of Greater Heroism. With Greater Invisibility, you have a +20 Stealth while moving and a +40 Stealth while remaining in your square. Pick up Skill Focus Stealth and Hellcat Stealth feats.

As a level 10 Kitsune, and modestly-assuming a Dex of 18, you could have 10SkillRank + 3ClassSkill + 6SkillFocus + 1-4 CotMTrait + 4SmallSizeBonus + 4GreaterHeroism + 10Chameleon Power + 4dex + 20-40Greater Invisibility =

1d20+60-63 Stealth while moving, depending on the Moon

1d20+80-83 Stealth while Not moving, depending on the Moon

1d20+40-43 if enemy has See Invis and is within range to see you

Modifiers:
-10 Stealth from these figures if you're being actively viewed
+1/10 DC to the Perception check for every 1ft. you are away from the target

For extra non-detecty goodness, go true Neutral for alignment to avoid Aura Sight and alignment-based detection spells, and have a wand of Negate Aroma to counter tracking by smell. And casting Fly on yourself can avoid tremorsense.

If you really want to crank up the Stealth to the next level, get Fast Stealth, Dampen Presence, and/or Ledge Walker.

[Sysryke]

I started a thread last year on much the same topic. Don't know how to link, but the title was "Fine size. Things that are, and how to get there." if you want to search for it, may have some ideas that will help.

Ryze's druid idea sounds really good, but you may want to double check the creature size ranges. I don't think PF has stats for a mouse, but in 3.x they were "fine" size, and I think the numbers ported over almost exactly to PF. Depending on the species variances of course, a mouse is going to be about the same volume and close to the same weight as a hummingbird. So, to be something that miniscule, you'll probably need one more step/component past the diminuative wild shape to become certain creatures, or hit fine size.

[Skrayper]

Sysryke wrote:

I started a thread last year on much the same topic. Don't know how to link, but the title was "Fine size. Things that are, and how to get there." if you want to search for it, may have some ideas that will help.

Ryze's druid idea sounds really good, but you may want to double check the creature size ranges. I don't think PF has stats for a mouse, but in 3.x they were "fine" size, and I think the numbers ported over almost exactly to PF. Depending on the species variances of course, a mouse is going to be about the same volume and close to the same weight as a hummingbird. So, to be something that miniscule, you'll probably need one more step/component past the diminuative wild shape to become certain creatures, or hit fine size.

Link to your thread

I'll be sure and take a look at that too. Really love what I'm seeing so far.

[Skrayper]

In regards to the ring, do you find that better than getting something like Silk Armor and adding Shadow, Improved? I know the ring does allow for disguise self as well, which is nice.

[Ryze Kuja]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

As a level 10 Kitsune, and modestly-assuming a Dex of 18, you could have 10SkillRank + 3ClassSkill + 6SkillFocus + 1-4 CotMTrait + 4SmallSizeBonus + 4GreaterHeroism + 10Chameleon Power + 4dex + 20-40Greater Invisibility =

1d20+60-63 Stealth while moving, depending on the Moon

1d20+80-83 Stealth while Not moving, depending on the Moon

1d20+40-43 if enemy has See Invis and is within range to see you

Modifiers:
-10 Stealth from these figures if you're being actively viewed
+1/10 DC to the Perception check for every 1ft. you are away from the target

I made a math error here. Should be:

1d20+62-65 Stealth while moving, depending on the Moon

1d20+82-85 Stealth while Not moving, depending on the Moon

1d20+42-45 if enemy has See Invis and is within range to see you

Modifiers:
-10 Stealth from these figures if you're being actively viewed
+1/10 DC to the Perception check for every 1ft. you are away from the target

[Ryze Kuja]

Anywho, you're at a perfect starting level to do an Arcane Trickster build because if you go

1-wiz
2-wiz2
3-rog1 (w/ Accomp. SnA)
4-wis3
5-AT1
6-AT2
7-AT3
8-AT4
9-AT5
10-AT6
11-AT7
12-AT8
13-AT9
14-AT10

then you'll be playing a fully-fleshed out Arcane Trickster with level 7 spells (with 8th lvl spells coming at lvl 16) and Surprise Spells w/ 7d6 SnA.

On the flipside, a level 14 Druid would also have level 7 spells (with 8th lvl spells coming at lvl 15), and you could take the Dreamed Secrets feat to be able to choose 2 new Wizard spells every day (at 1 spell lvl lower than you can cast). You could be a Druid with Contingency, Disintegrate, Spell Turning, Animate Dead, Polymorph Any Object, or Form of the Dragon I-III if you wanted.

The world is your oyster.

[Skrayper]

Well, I know it cuts into how fast I get Surprise Spells, but I really prefer spontaneous casting to prepared casting. The group is 14th, so yeah - I could get Surprise Spells now, but I think I'd rather wait one more level and have spontaneous casting.

Really the thought was "play an arcane trickster as tiny as possible" and started me off thinking "tiny goblin" but that hurts spellcasting, so then thought "tiny halfling" and wondered if I could get said halfling smaller than tiny.

Or if using a Greater Hat of Disguise (constant Alter Self) to be a small version of a Kitsune, then Permanency Reduce Person to be a tiny Kitsune. The temptation to add the Child template is there as well to get diminutive, but the penalties are pretty rough. Not impossible to overcome, but rough regardless.

[Ryze Kuja]

Polymorph wrote:

Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature’s type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell. (see Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes)

Alter Self is a Polymorph spell, so Reduce Person would not change your size, unfortunately.

[VoodistMonk]

It's probably easier to just ask your GM if you can be a monster of whatever size you are looking for. They might even say yes if you aren't trying to be clever.

I'm sure there are plenty of tiny, 1HD monsters that would make functional playable characters if you added class levels to them.

[David knott 242]

In addition to Druid, you may also want to consider Sorcerer with the Shapechanger bloodline and use the Fey Form spells to make yourself ever smaller for increasing periods of time, eventually reaching Diminutive size for hours per level.

[avr]

For a kitsune (which you said you wanted to be) taking the fox form feat seems like the simplest way to get tiny.

If you want to use the shapechanger bloodline to extend polymorph spells significantly, remember the eldritch heritage feat line if being a sorcerer doesn't suit you.

[David knott 242]

There is also VMC Sorcerer, which pays off sooner than the Eldritch Heritage feats for this particular bloodline (at 7th level for the 3rd level power you really want) and does not require investment in charisma.

But for that or the Eldritch Heritage feats, you still need to pick a class that has access to suitable polymorph spells since neither of these options will grant you the actual spells.

[Fulgur8]

If I am reading the official FAQ properly, I believe you will not be able to combine multiple actual size changes to your character. But if somebody else could confirm if this is the correct interpretation...

Paizo FAQ: wrote:

Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).

Link Paizo FAQ

[David knott 242]

You are reading it right. That is what should make assuming Fine size impossible.

[Coidzor]

Sculpt Corpse is of interest here. For one thing it is not a polymorph effect.

Does have the downside of needing to die first, though, but it's fast enough that you could have it cast on you and still be brought back by Breath of Life. It also can't be dispelled due to being an instantaneous spell. The last sentence is very open to individual GM interpretation, though, and that is probably the biggest downside of it.

A Seamless Skin made from a Small size creature with the Young simple template (Tiny) that was then shrunk via Sculpt Corpse would allow a Tiny creature that donned it to become Diminutive.

[avr]

Coidzor wrote:

A Seamless Skin made from a Small size creature with the Young simple template (Tiny) that was then shrunk via Sculpt Corpse would allow a Tiny creature that donned it to become Diminutive.

Or you could go to the source - seamless skin more or less replicates recorporeal incarnation, which is a spell which says it can be made permanent for 17 500 gp.

[Skrayper]

avr wrote:

Coidzor wrote:

A Seamless Skin made from a Small size creature with the Young simple template (Tiny) that was then shrunk via Sculpt Corpse would allow a Tiny creature that donned it to become Diminutive.

Or you could go to the source - seamless skin more or less replicates recorporeal incarnation, which is a spell which says it can be made permanent for 17 500 gp.

Those are cool, but a bit gruesome for this character :)

Definitely going to need to remember both for future concepts.

Right now I like the Improved Eldritch Heritage - Shapechanger (Mutable Flesh), and using Fey Form II or III (depending if going Sorc or Wizard). I know going Wizard gets me higher level spells and access to Surprise Spells faster, but spontaneous casting and going Phoenix Bloodline makes the character even more versatile (even if you're fighting stuff with high magic resistance/immunities, you can buff AND heal the party). I'll need a Cha of at least 15 even if I go Wizard to meet the prerequisites for Improved Eldritch Heritage.

[Ryze Kuja]

Just take the Fox Shape feat, which allows you to shapeshift as per Beast Shape II, which would make you Tiny. I think that's the smallest you'll be able to get, and the cheapest way to do it. 1 feat. Simple.

[David knott 242]

If you can actually cast Beast Shape III or Fey Form III, you can actually make yourself Diminutive for the duration of the spell.

[Ryze Kuja]

So here's what I'd do:

Kitsune FCB for Sorcerer is +1/4 Enchantment DC, and Kitsune Magic racial trait gives +1 Enchantment DC. So either focus on making your Enchantment spells crazy good, OR, trade out your Kitsune Magic racial for the alternate Racial trait Superior Shapeshifter so that you can get Fox Shape as a free feat.

Traits: Wayang Spellhunter (Fireball or Burning Hands) / Magical Lineage (Fireball or Burning Hands)

Lvl1 - Crossblooded Sorcerer (Phoenix Bloodline) (Orc/Draconic(Fire)/Solar Bloodline for +1 per dmg die -- this helps with both dmg and heals) Orc gives the best payout though, as it doesn't matter the descriptor-- this is a flavor choice that is entirely up to you.
Feat: Fox Shape (allows you to become Tiny per Beast Shape II) or Intensify Spell
Lvl2 - Sorc2
Lvl3 - Rogue1
Feat: Accomplished Sneak Attacker
Lvl4 - Sorc3
Lvl5 - Sorc4
Feat: Spell Focus (Evocation, Transmutation, or Enchantment)
Lvl6 - Arcane Trickster1
Lvl7 - AT2
Feat: Greater Spell Focus (Evocation, Transmutation, or Enchantment)
Lvl8 - AT3
Lvl9 - AT4
Feat: Empower Spell
Lvl10 - AT5
Lvl11 - AT6
Feat: Maximize Spell
Lvl12 - AT7
Lvl13 - AT8
Feat: Dazing Spell
-- If you have Wayang/Lineage on Fireball, you can cast Dazing Fireballs in a lvl 4 slot that Daze for 3 rounds even if they make the Reflex Save. If you don't put Wayang/Lineage on Fireball, you can still do this with a lvl 6 slot.
Lvl14 - AT9
At this level, ensure you have 14 points in Knowledge Arcana, because next level you can get Spell Perfection. Put Spell Perfection on Disintegrate (if Transmutation) or Fireball if Evocation, or any spell that you want.
Lvl15 - AT10 - Surprise Spells
Spell Perfection - Fireball or Disintegrate
Now you can Maximize or Dazing your Fireball for free with Spell Perfection, and you can Empower it for free with Wayang/Lineage, and it still only costs you a lvl 3 spell slot. That's a lot of damage, healing, or crowd control. As an added bonus, when you're casting from Invis or if they're flat-footed, this adds your SnA to the damage.

You can be Tiny at all times with Fox Shape, but I would take Beast Shape III and/or BS IV for your 5th/6th lvl spells for on-demand Diminutive-size.

[Ryze Kuja]

If you want to do sneaky-caster with a Stealth Focus

Forget enchantment. Trade out Kitsune Magic trait for Superior Shapeshifter to get Fox Shape as a free feat.

Traits: Wayang Spellhunter (regional) + Child of the Moon (magic)

Lvl1 - Rogue1
Feat: Skill Focus: Stealth
Lvl2 - Sorc1 Crossblooded Sorcerer (Phoenix/Orc Bloodline)
Lvl3 - Sorc2
Feat: Accomplished Sneak Attacker
Lvl4 - Sorc3
Lvl5 - Sorc4
Feat: Spell Focus (Evocation or Transmutation)
Lvl6 - Arcane Trickster1
Lvl7 - AT2
Feat: Hellcat Stealth
Lvl8 - AT3
Lvl9 - AT4
Feat: Empower Spell
Lvl10 - AT5
Lvl11 - AT6
Feat: Maximize Spell
Lvl12 - AT7
Lvl13 - AT8
Feat: Dazing Spell
Lvl14 - AT9
At this level, ensure you have 14 points in Knowledge Arcana for Spell Perfection.
Lvl15 - AT10 - Surprise Spells
Spell Perfection - Fireball or Disintegrate
Lvl16 - Sorc5
Lvl17 - Sorc6
Feat: Spell Penetration or Fast Stealth

Spells/Items:
Ring of Chameleon Power for +10 Comp bonus to Stealth
Potions/Scrolls of Greater Heroism (or add this to Spells Known)
Potions/Scrolls/Wand of Greater Invis (or add this to Spells Known)
Potions/Scrolls of Beast Shape III and/or BS IV for on-demand Diminutive-size (or add this to Spells Known)

At level 14, you would have 14SkillRank + 3ClassSkill + 6SkillFocus + 1-4 CotMTrait + 8TinySizeBonus (+12 if Diminutive) + 4GreaterHeroism + 10Chameleon Power + 20-40Greater Invisibility + whatever your Dex is =

1d20+66-69 Stealth while moving, depending on the Moon

1d20+86-89 Stealth while Not moving, depending on the Moon

1d20+46-49 if enemy has See Invis and is within range to see you

Modifiers:
-10 Stealth from these figures if you're being actively viewed
+1/10 DC to the Perception check for every 1ft. you are away from the target
+4 to these figures while Diminutive
None of these figures above include your Dex Mod

[willuwontu]

Note: When you shapeshift to a nonhumanoid form you can't cast spells with somatic or verbal components. Thus, the best way to cast while in those forms is to be a psychic caster.

Alternatively, an ascendant reduce person can be permanencied to make you tiny if you're medium size to start with.

[willuwontu]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

If you have Wayang/Lineage on Fireball, you can cast Dazing Fireballs in a lvl 4 slot that Daze for 3 rounds even if they make the Reflex Save.

Incorrect, if they save, they don't get dazed.

Dazing Spell wrote:

When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect.

Unlike cherry blossom, where if the spell still damages on a successful save the effect goes through, dazing spell doesn't do anything if the enemy saves.

Edit: Also, how are you missing Magic Trick (Fireball) on a blaster sorc build based around fireball?

[Oli Ironbar]

Share Shape spell works if you have a familiar you wish to copy.

Also Rod of Wonder has an outcome where you become diminutive (I believe?) for 1 day, so you can activate that until your size changes. You may also turn purple or blue in the process.

[Ryze Kuja]

willuwontu wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

If you have Wayang/Lineage on Fireball, you can cast Dazing Fireballs in a lvl 4 slot that Daze for 3 rounds even if they make the Reflex Save.

Incorrect, if they save, they don't get dazed.

Dazing Spell wrote:

When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect.

Unlike cherry blossom, where if the spell still damages on a successful save the effect goes through, dazing spell doesn't do anything if the enemy saves.

Edit: Also, how are you missing Magic Trick (Fireball) on a blaster sorc build based around fireball?

My bad, you're right. For some reason I thought if you were damaged at all by a Dazing spell then the daze applies. Nvm.

As far as Magic Trick build focused on nothing but Fireball, Wizard would be ideal, but for a Sorc you could go:

Traits: Wayang Spellhunter (Fireball) + Magical Lineage (Fireball)

Lvl1 - Sorc1 Crossblooded Sorcerer (Phoenix/Orc Bloodline)
Feat: Empower Spell
Lvl2 - Sorc2
Lvl3 - Rogue1
Feat: Accomplished Sneak Attacker
Lvl4 - Sorc3
Lvl5 - Sorc4
Feat: Widen Spell
Lvl6 - Arcane Trickster1
Lvl7 - AT2
Feat: Magic Trick (Fireball)
Lvl8 - AT3
Lvl9 - AT4
Feat: Maximize Spell
Lvl10 - AT5
Lvl11 - AT6
Feat: Spell Focus (Evocation)
Lvl12 - AT7
Lvl13 - AT8
Feat: Spell Specialization (Fireball)
Lvl14 - AT9
Lvl15 - AT10 - Surprise Spells
Feat: Spell Perfection - Fireball
Lvl16 - Sorc5
Lvl17 - Sorc6
Feat: Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, or Varisian Tattoo (Evocation)

Get an Orange Prism Ioun Stone for +1 CL.

Tbh, I think Full Wizard would be ideal for a Magic Trick(Fireball) build-- Varisian Tattoo, GSF, and Spell Pen are much to be yearned for prior to getting Spell Perfection at lvl 15. But this build still has a crapton of dmg potential.

With Spell Perfection and Spell Specialization, and Ioun Stone, your CL for Fireball would be 15+4+1= 20CL, so that's 10 Fireballs 10ft wide that deal 2d6+2 dmg each with Magic Trick Cluster Bomb. Widen it to 20ft with Widen Spell, then Magic Trick Concentrated Fire and reduce it down to 5ft radius, now each of the 10 fireballs deal 5d6+5 damage each, so 50d6+50 total. We're still at lvl 3 spell slot because Widen is free with Spell Perfection.

Now Empower it for free with Wayang/Lineage. Still at Spell slot lvl 3. Drop Empower and Maximize it for level 4 slot.

[Baba Ganoush]

You might be able to stack on Fairy Cap - it says it works like reduce person but it's a herb not a magic item, "...effects function as ...reduce person, except can affect any Large or smaller living creature; the effects persist for 10 minutes in either case."

[Skrayper]

Baba Ganoush wrote:

You might be able to stack on Fairy Cap - it says it works like reduce person but it's a herb not a magic item, "...effects function as ...reduce person, except can affect any Large or smaller living creature; the effects persist for 10 minutes in either case."

I think the fact that it acts as Reduce Person might make it not work with other polymorph spells.