Having 4 arms is probably ok, but you won't get any extra actions or attacks. Action economy would remain the same. (i.e. no real benefit)
Having 4 arms is probably ok, but you won't get any extra actions or attacks. Action economy would remain the same. (i.e. no real benefit)Why. You can make an attack with every natural weapon, so claw claw slam slam is completely legal
I'm not actually sure about this. Most examples I see if creatures gaining attacks in the same limb have to pick one or the other. I'm not sure if there's a consistent rule though.
You can't twice with the same appendage, normally. Like a tail swipe and a sting with the same tail?
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I'm not sure if there's a consistent rule though.
You can't twice with the same appendage, normally. Like a tail swipe and a sting with the same tail?
Nope, there is no such rule. Indeed, there is a published monster which not only uses the same body part (head) for two different natural attacks (not actually that uncommon for horn-gore + bite), but the same part of the same body part (mouth) for two of them (gore from tusks, and bite). If that flies, tail slap + sting should, too.
The only explicit thing about unstackable natural attacks is this FAQ, which is sadly not really written in a general way, but at least says you can't get multiple bites form the same mouth.
People often presume a "no two attacks from the same limb" rule, but that's just the rule for combining natural with manufactured weapons.
I'm hesitant to say "RAW, slam + claws form the same arm is fine", because RAW, three sets of claws on the same arm are fine, too, and no GM should allow that. Of course, there're plenty of monster that slam with something other than arms. Bodyslam anyone?
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Having 4 arms is probably ok, but you won't get any extra actions or attacks. Action economy would remain the same. (i.e. no real benefit)Why. You can make an attack with every natural weapon, so claw claw slam slam is completely legalI'm not actually sure about this. Most examples I see if creatures gaining attacks in the same limb have to pick one or the other. I'm not sure if there's a consistent rule though.
You can't twice with the same appendage, normally. Like a tail swipe and a sting with the same tail?
Elementals don't need to have a humanoid form, not make their slam attacks with the arms. As an example, they could take the form of a centaur and hit with two hoof attacks. Or be a wave and strike with their body.
Although all air elementals of a similar size have identical statistics, the exact appearance of an air elemental can vary wildly between individuals. One might be an animated vortex of wind and smoke, while another might be a smoky bird-like creature with glowing eyes and wind for wings.
So taking a form with four limbs or none doesn't change at all the elemental attacks. What matters is what the claws do.
Claws (Su): At 1st level, you grow claws. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack,
As written, 1 or more slam plus 2 claws for an elemental is fine.
@Derklord unless some specific rule allows some of the claws to stack, you can use only one set of claws for each limb you have. The claw attacks overlap.
@Derklord unless some specific rule allows some of the claws to stack, you can use only one set of claws for each limb you have. The claw attacks overlap.
Do you have a rule, or really anything written, to support this statement?
is there such a creature with multiple sets of claws on an appendage that gets to attack separately with all of them? I'd think they'd just up the damage for a claw attack on that one arm.
+1 to above. While slam is often visualised from arms/closed fists, it can come from other body parts.
Tail slap, followed by sting, totally legal and easy to visualize.
Since elementals are basically amorphous until you set the shape, I don't see any reason why you couldn't do as many limbs as you wish. But, no multiple grabs, manufactured weapons, or item holds without appropriate feats/powers/spells paid for.
I'm sure I agree. But the lack of a clear rule is apparent, so I'd say - use your best judgment. I believe you can't stack Eidolons natural attacks without appropriate limbs or heads, so that's a good rule.
Elementals are effectively amorphous and weird, so I can see the slam being unrelated to having arms.
Gore and bite have been treated as historically separate even if it doesn't make a ton of sense (bad argument), as opposed to claw and wing buffet with the same appendage. Whether you personally think it makes sense (or me) is irrelevant beyond our individual rulings at our own tables.
I'm pretty sure I've seen it done both ways in published Paizo materials, but most commonly they are replaced not addative. A half-fiend fire giant gets claws or slams, not both.
There's no rule that says you can't attack a thousand claws into a armless creature, but I think that's common sense.
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You COULD have four hundred arms and seventeen legs, but it doesn't change how you operate. As a Medium elemental with dragon bloodline claws, you have one slam and two claw strikes.
For all the rules care, you could slam with the same arm you use to claw. Rake your opponent with the claw, then come back with a back fist punch for the slam. The slam could also be a kick, headbutt, elbow, shoulder tackle, pretty much anything that isn't a tentacle, wing buffet, or tail slap.
Now, there is a rule that says that a natural weapon can't be used if its limb is wielding a weapon:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although a creature must forgo one natural attack, be it a claw, slam, or tentacle attack, for each weapon clutched in a limb that would otherwise make a natural attack). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of their type.
But yeah. If your earth elemental form is just a dirty animated statue version of you, you still get a slam and two claws. So you may want to keep it simple :P
Pathfinder Elementals are roughly Humanoid
"Elementals are creatures from one of the Elemental Planes that are made up completely of one of the four elements of air, earth, fire or water. This means that they do not have anatomies and nervous systems as do most other creatures. As a result they cannot be stunned, poisoned or paralysed, do not breathe, eat, or sleep, and do not have a blind side or vulnerable areas that can be targeted by their enemies." - Pathfinder RPG Bestiary (First Edition), p. 311
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Pathfinder Elementals are roughly Humanoid
"Elementals are creatures from one of the Elemental Planes that are made up completely of one of the four elements of air, earth, fire or water. This means that they do not have anatomies and nervous systems as do most other creatures. As a result they cannot be stunned, poisoned or paralysed, do not breathe, eat, or sleep, and do not have a blind side or vulnerable areas that can be targeted by their enemies." - Pathfinder RPG Bestiary (First Edition), p. 311
Elemental Subtype: An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. An elemental has the following features.
• Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
• Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
• Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are
proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
• Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
The Fist printing errata doesn't cite any change about the shape of the elementals.
The elementals description:
Although all air elementals of a similar size have identical statistics, the exact appearance of an air elemental can vary wildly between individuals. One might be an animated vortex of wind and smoke, while another might be a smoky bird-like creature with glowing eyes and wind for wings.
...
When an earth elemental lumbers into action, its actual appearance can vary, although its statistics remain identical to other elementals of its size. Most earth elementals look like terrestrial animals made out of rock, earth, or even crystal, with glowing gemstones for eyes. Larger earth elementals often have a stony humanoid appearance.
...
Fire elementals vary in appearance—they usually manifest as coiling serpentine forms made of smoke and flame, but some fire elementals take on shapes more akin to humans, demons, or other monsters in order to increase the terror of their sudden appearance.
....
As with other elementals, all water elementals have their own unique shapes and appearances. Most appear as wave-like creatures with vaguely humanoid faces and smaller wave “arms” to either side. Another common form is that of any aquatic creature, such as a shark or octopus, but made entirely out of water.
Conclusion: when using wildshape to turn into an elemental you don't need to take a humanoid shape at all.
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@Derklord unless some specific rule allows some of the claws to stack, you can use only one set of claws for each limb you have. The claw attacks overlap.Do you have a rule, or really anything written, to support this statement?
Basic Pathfinder rules: the same source doesn't stack (barring specific rules). They overlap.
Claw left arm doesn't stack with claw left arm and claw left arm.
I know I can't use two attacks on the same limb. My question is this: When turning into an earth elemental, can I choose to have 4 arms?
You actually don’t need anymore than 2 arms.
From natural attack rules:
“ You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks).”
In simple terms, if your BAB is 6+ you can make an attack with a second natural weapon on the same limb if you have one. If you somehow have three natural weapons on one limb, you can use all three at BAB 11+. You don’t get iteratives, but you do get to use the same limb more times.
I wonder if gaining claws would do anything for someone in elemental shape. The elementals are described as having multiple possible forms, including animals, but they don't have varied natural attack options based on those forms. It's possible that growing claws wouldn't do anything for an elemental since manifesting with claws normally wouldn't.
Something else to consider from the natural attack rules:
"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although a creature must forgo one natural attack, be it a claw, slam, or tentacle attack, for each weapon clutched in a limb that would otherwise make a natural attack).
This seems to indicate that the slam is associated with a limb that could be otherwise occupied.
The FAQ for assigning manifested claws to limbs says:If you are a bipedal creature (roughly humanoid-shaped, with two arms and two legs), your claws must go on your hands; you can not assign them to any other limb or body part.
If you are a quadruped (or have more than four legs), you can have claws on your feet. If you have claws on all of your feet, normally you can't use all of those claw attacks on your turn unless you have a special ability such as pounce or rake.
So we also have the possible interpretation that slam is attached to limbs and would be replaced by claws.
That said, 2 claws and a slam is a more than reasonable number of attacks for a 10th level character. You can afford to be generous here.
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Pathfinder Elementals are roughly Humanoid
"Elementals are creatures from one of the Elemental Planes that are made up completely of one of the four elements of air, earth, fire or water. This means that they do not have anatomies and nervous systems as do most other creatures. As a result they cannot be stunned, poisoned or paralysed, do not breathe, eat, or sleep, and do not have a blind side or vulnerable areas that can be targeted by their enemies." - Pathfinder RPG Bestiary (First Edition), p. 311
Elemental Subtype: An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. An elemental has the following features.
• Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
• Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
• Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are
proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
• Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep.The Fist printing errata doesn't cite any change about the shape of the elementals.
The elementals description:
...Although all air elementals of a similar size have identical statistics, the exact appearance of an air elemental can vary wildly between individuals. One might be an animated vortex of wind and smoke, while another might be a smoky bird-like creature with glowing eyes and wind for wings.
...
When an earth elemental lumbers into action, its actual appearance can vary, although
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying they're roughly humanoid, don't have anatomies, nor nervous systems, nor a blind-side. If you look at one of the pictures for the Water Elemental, it looks like a large wave with a shark-shaped arm comprised of water, which is barely humanoid-shaped at all.
So I think as long as you satisfy the mechanical aspect of "this elemental has 1 slam & 2 claw attacks" for the attack entry appropriate for the type/size of elemental you wild shape into, then I see no real reason you can't have the elemental look like just about anything you want. If you want the elemental to have horns, 50 arms, 10 wings, and 7 tails for aesthetic reasons, then that would be fine but only insofar as it shouldn't be abused to say that this thing has 10 wing strikes, 50 claw attacks, 1 gore attack, and 7 tail slaps, but rather the extra arms, wings, tails, and horns are purely for "uniqueness", "storyline", and/or "aesthetic" reasons from the Player and/or GM, and would still only have "1 slam and 2 claw attacks" or whatever is mechanically appropriate for the Elemental you've wild shaped into.
I mean, if I had a player who wanted to play a Druid who once he reaches level 12 and can become a Huge Elemental, he wants to wild shape into a Quetzalcoatl-looking Air Elemental with 45 wings representing the 45 personal ethos of nature he abides by, 73 talons representing the 73 acres of the grove he defends, and horns because horns are badass, I'm going to say "YES! A thousand times YES!" and probably shed a few tears of joy because I have a creative player who is highly invested in his druid, but he still only gets 2 slam attacks as per the entry for a Huge Air elemental.
I don't see any problem with that at all. Not only does this not break my game mechanically, but it also ensures the Player is having the maximum amount of fun at the same time.
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As a DM in this very specific case I would say:
You can either have the slam attack from the elemental or the claw attack, not both. Simply because if you get additional attacks this way, why can't a four-armed character not attack twice?
Because manufactured weapons and natural weapons have different rules
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Just to point it out, as I think it replies to several posts:
the Draconic Bloodlines claws (both Sorcerer and Bloodrager) are a SU ability.
That matters as you can grow them after you have changed shape to an elemental.
An ability that alters your original body or an EX ability will not work as polymorphing to something different from your original form will remove a set of natural claws.
You get the extra attacks because the SU ability Claws grant the extra attacks and the Claws don't conflict with an ability that the elemental form grants.
Pathfinder Elementals are roughly Humanoid
"Elementals are creatures from one of the Elemental Planes that are made up completely of one of the four elements of air, earth, fire or water. This means that they do not have anatomies and nervous systems as do most other creatures. As a result they cannot be stunned, poisoned or paralysed, do not breathe, eat, or sleep, and do not have a blind side or vulnerable areas that can be targeted by their enemies." - Pathfinder RPG Bestiary (First Edition), p. 311
Scroll further down the article and it mentions other types of elementals. Primal Elemental may be the most famous, but they are not the only type. The article does not even state they are the most common, just the most famous. There is no reason when taking the form of an elemental you are limited to a primal elemental.
Scroll further down the article and it mentions other types of elementals. Primal Elemental may be the most famous, but they are not the only type. The article does not even state they are the most common, just the most famous. There is no reason when taking the form of an elemental you are limited to a primal elemental.Pathfinder Elementals are roughly Humanoid
"Elementals are creatures from one of the Elemental Planes that are made up completely of one of the four elements of air, earth, fire or water. This means that they do not have anatomies and nervous systems as do most other creatures. As a result they cannot be stunned, poisoned or paralysed, do not breathe, eat, or sleep, and do not have a blind side or vulnerable areas that can be targeted by their enemies." - Pathfinder RPG Bestiary (First Edition), p. 311
Thanks Captain Obvious for that excellent assessment.
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Because manufactured weapons and natural weapons have different rules
So a four armed character with improved unarmed strike (or a monk) could make multiple attacks? I don't think so...
But at the end this specific case is not specified in the rules, so it will be a DM-by-DM decision. And I just mentioned how I (as a DM) would rule in this situation. ;)
Because manufactured weapons and natural weapons have different rulesSo a four armed character with improved unarmed strike (or a monk) could make multiple attacks? I don't think so...
Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons.
Basic Pathfinder rules: the same source doesn't stack (barring specific rules).
Can you actually quote such a rule, or did you just make that up? I know there is an FAQ that claims such a rule existed, but it only refers to the stacking rules, which only give such a rule for untyped bonuses.
Of course, if we did draw a ruling from that FAQ, the not-stacking would only apply to claws from the same source, while I was talking about using different abilities. That you can attack with a claw is not an effect.
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Because manufactured weapons and natural weapons have different rulesSo a four armed character with improved unarmed strike (or a monk) could make multiple attacks? I don't think so...Unarmed strikes are not natural weapons.
Basic Pathfinder rules: the same source doesn't stack (barring specific rules).Can you actually quote such a rule, or did you just make that up? I know there is an FAQ that claims such a rule existed, but it only refers to the stacking rules, which only give such a rule for untyped bonuses.
Of course, if we did draw a ruling from that FAQ, the not-stacking would only apply to claws from the same source, while I was talking about using different abilities. That you can attack with a claw is not an effect.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties
on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r43
Temporary Hit Points: Do temporary hit point from the same source stack?
No. Generally, effects do not stack if they are from the same source (Core Rulebook page 208, Combining Magical Effects). Although temporary hit points are not a "bonus," the principle still applies.
This prevents a creature with energy drain (which grants the creature 5 temporary hit points when used) from draining an entire village of 100 people in order to gain 500 temporary hit points before the PCs arrive to fight it.
Temporary hit points from different sources (such as an aid spell, a use of energy drain, and a vampiric touch spell) still stack with each other.
No FAQ Required: As per this FAQ on effective size increases, two effective size increases do not stack. Shield spikes and bashing both grant effective size increases, so they do not stack. The extraneous mention of armor spikes in Ultimate Equipment’s spiked shield entry is in error, and it should be reflected in the next errata.
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9qx4
Weapon Special Ability, Impact: Does this stack with the lead blades spell?
No. The weapon special ability and the spell are similar effects; note that impact lists lead blades as a construction requirement.
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9rdl
Bane: Can I apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon? If so, do their effects stack?
You can apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon. For example, you can have a +1 dragon- and fey-bane longsword, which has an increased enhancement bonus and damage against dragons and against fey.
If you have multiple bane effects on a weapon and attack a creature against which more than one bane applies (such as a chaotic- and evil-outsider bane weapon used against a demon), the effects do not stack: the weapon's enhancement bonus is only +2 higher than its actual enhancement bonus, and it only deals +2d6 points of damage against that opponent.
(Compare to fighter weapon training or ranger favored enemy bonuses, both of which say you use the highest bonus if more than one bonus applies.)
Etc.
I think that after a few iterations of "stuff don't stack unless it explicitly says it stacks" we have a general principle on how the rules are meant to work, not several unconnected examples.
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Because manufactured weapons and natural weapons have different rulesSo a four armed character with improved unarmed strike (or a monk) could make multiple attacks? I don't think so...
considering there's a feat to reduce the penalty yes they can. Just not as a flurry of blows. If they want to make 1 primary hand and 3 off hand attacks at regular bab with all the penalties in place, go ahead
Or look at a mariliths stat block
Melee +1 longsword +24/+19/+14/+9 (2d6+8/17–20), 5 +1 longswords +24 (2d6+4/17–20), tail slap +17 (2d6+3 plus grab) or 6 slams +22 (1d8+7), tail slap +17 (2d6+3 plus grab)
That's 6 longswords or slams. 1 per arm.
Because manufactured weapons and natural weapons have different rulesSo a four armed character with improved unarmed strike (or a monk) could make multiple attacks? I don't think so...
But at the end this specific case is not specified in the rules, so it will be a DM-by-DM decision. And I just mentioned how I (as a DM) would rule in this situation. ;)
The only restriction to attacks for multi-armed characters come from the source of their extra limbs. Alchemists with vestigial limbs are explicitly restricted by the ability, Kasatha’s four-armed racial feature explicitly limits their attacks... etc... these limits are mostly found on playable races, class abilities, and items... monsters and monstrous races with multiple limbs on the other hand have no such limitations.
This basically goes back to specific trumps general. The general rule, a creature may make one attack per round for each limb it possesses that is capable of wielding a weapon or has a natural weapon. Specific rules found on class features and racial abilities remove those additional attacks beyond the first pair of limbs, specific rules for iterative attacks grant additional attacks with manufactured weapons for the mainhand, specific rules for two-weapon/multi-weapon fighting feats grant additional off-hand attacks where qualified.
I think that after a few iterations of "stuff don't stack unless it explicitly says it stacks" we have a general principle on how the rules are meant to work, not several unconnected examples.
So I guess the bonus attacks from Haste and Rapid Shot don't stack? The attacks even originate from the same weapon!
Absolutely nothing you've said made my statement of "RAW, three sets of claws on the same arm are fine" wrong. Even if it did exist, an unwritten "general principle" would not be RAW, per definition.
considering there's a feat to reduce the penalty yes they can.
No, they can't. There is no rule that allows them to. A feat's normal section is not a rule. A stat block is not a rule.
Just because the feat and the stat block act as if there was a rule doesn't make it so. Just like Prone Shooter acting as if being prone imposed a penalty on crossbow/firearm attacks didn't make it so, and Potion Glutton acting as if drinking potions was a move action didn't make it so.
The general rule, a creature may make one attack per round for each limb it possesses that is capable of wielding a weapon or has a natural weapon.
Seriously, there is no such rule. The actual rules on fighting with more than one manufactured weapon is that you only get additional attacks by using the TWF option.
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I think that after a few iterations of "stuff don't stack unless it explicitly says it stacks" we have a general principle on how the rules are meant to work, not several unconnected examples.So I guess the bonus attacks from Haste and Rapid Shot don't stack? The attacks even originate from the same weapon!
Absolutely nothing you've said made my statement of "RAW, three sets of claws on the same arm are fine" wrong. Even if it did exist, an unwritten "general principle" would not be RAW, per definition.
When citing someone, please use the right name.
Nice strawman with the bow, but totally false.
The sources of the extra shot are:
- the spell Haste,
- the feat Rapid Shot.
The problem with your interpretation is that you see "three sets of claws on the same arm" as three separated items. But we have two "Claws" bloodline abilities giving the same thing. Same name, same effect. And a FAQ that says how the claws should be placed.
Claws and Talons: If I gain claw attacks, can I put those claw attacks on my feet?
If you are a bipedal creature (roughly humanoid-shaped, with two arms and two legs), your claws must go on your hands; you can not assign them to any other limb or body part.
If you are a quadruped (or have more than four legs), you can have claws on your feet. If you have claws on all of your feet, normally you can't use all of those claw attacks on your turn unless you have a special ability such as pounce or rake.
Talons are much like claws, but go on a creature's feet, usually a bipedal creature (especially a flying bipedal creature such as a giant eagle or harpy). An ability that grants you claw attacks cannot be used as if they were talon attacks (in other words, you can't "re-skin" the ability's game mechanics so you can use it on a different limb).
posted November 2013 | back to top
So we have: left-hand claw, same left-hand claw, same left-hand claw.
Then the rules about natural attacks in the CRB:
Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks).
Your example hasn't extra limbs to make the second and third attack, nor extra body parts, as the part is always "left-hand claw".
So what rule allows you to make 3 attacks?
The rules say that you can make 1 natural attack with that limb.
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@derklord I can't help but notice you don't address the stat blocks that contradict your statement
Melee +1 longsword +24/+19/+14/+9 (2d6+8/17–20), 5 +1 longswords +24 (2d6+4/17–20), tail slap +17 (2d6+3 plus grab) or 6 slams +22 (1d8+7), tail slap +17 (2d6+3 plus grab)
The stat block says 6 swords all get attacks.
That is impossible under your statement, but that's what it says.
Both cannot be correct.