The overshadowing part was inevitable when all full spellcaster classes were decided to share 4 sets of "traditions" as spell lists (not that I dislike it though).
While Bard, Cleric, and Druid have minimal excuses on using different key ability other than INT, differentiating the Wizard and an arcane Witch was doomed to be tricky, as even the forumites here alone are wildly disagreeing whether the exchanged class feat(-ures) are worth it or not...
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Personally, I see no reason to discuss flavor alongside mechanics. If you absolutely need the witch to fit the flavor of your character, more power to you. For everyone else though the witch is a strictly inferior option.That is a pretty extreme statement.
If you don't like the Witch class, feel free to rip those pages out of your copy of the APG. But saying that everyone else should do the same seems ... unfounded.
But it doesn't feel like you are actually interested in a conversation where we can each try to understand the opposing point of view. You just want to win an argument on the internet. So ... congratulations?
My primary concern was finding a mechanical purpose for the witch. Being tied for best INT skills while being able to access the non-arcane lists seems to be it. A specific niche but a niche nonetheless.
What do people here think of multiclassing into Witch
The witch makes a great target for archetyping for casters that can spare the stats to INT. Generally this is the wizard, the cleric and the druid. Two feats gets you basic lesson or cackle, and three gets you both. You also get a familiar. Non-casters don't get as much benefit since they don't want to be sustaining spells, but fighters dumping DEX, thief rogues and champions dumping DEX and CHA can all benefit from life boost.
What do people here think of multiclassing into WitchThe witch makes a great target for archetyping for casters that can spare the stats to INT. Generally this is the wizard, the cleric and the druid. Two feats gets you basic lesson or cackle, and three gets you both. You also get a familiar. Non-casters don't get as much benefit since they don't want to be sustaining spells, but fighters dumping DEX, thief rogues and champions dumping DEX and CHA can all benefit from life boost.
This remember me the average impression of Alchemist where's the Archetype is more interesting than the main class.
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Personally, I see no reason to discuss flavor alongside mechanics. If you absolutely need the witch to fit the flavor of your character, more power to you. For everyone else though the witch is a strictly inferior option.That is a pretty extreme statement.
If you don't like the Witch class, feel free to rip those pages out of your copy of the APG. But saying that everyone else should do the same seems ... unfounded.
But it doesn't feel like you are actually interested in a conversation where we can each try to understand the opposing point of view. You just want to win an argument on the internet. So ... congratulations?
My primary concern was finding a mechanical purpose for the witch. Being tied for best INT skills while being able to access the non-arcane lists seems to be it. A specific niche but a niche nonetheless.
What do people here think of multiclassing into WitchThe witch makes a great target for archetyping for casters that can spare the stats to INT. Generally this is the wizard, the cleric and the druid. Two feats gets you basic lesson or cackle, and three gets you both. You also get a familiar. Non-casters don't get as much benefit since they don't want to be sustaining spells, but fighters dumping DEX, thief rogues and champions dumping DEX and CHA can all benefit from life boost.
Multiclassing into Witch is particularly good for Investigators who want to dabble in spellcasting, since they can use their Intelligence to make strikes with Devise a Stratagem.
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I will admit the Witch Dedication is fire, as Ventnor says, not only is it strong with Investigator it's super flavorful.
Dean/Sam Winchester, Constantine, Demonblood, and Trese are all basically Investigator Witches.
I mean it's a value Dedication because it's Cantrip + Familiar as it is, but it's also super flavorful too.
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Casters suck if:
a) you are regularily fighting enemies with a level advantage so you almost never get criticals
b) if you are playing a simple blaster caster, and don't get that Reflex is often a pretty good saving throw for enemies
c) you haven't got the synergy going to debuff enemies saving throws, like Intimidation or Bon Mot plus targetting will saving throws
d) you only buff and heal, because of the aboveIts mostly about GMs and players. But to be fair my group started down this path too. Casters are more complex to play than martials who can get by on flanking/buffing/healing.
I actually think more people wouldn't mind playing casters if they tailored their expectations with the above in mind. I know I've found more success as a caster tailoring my spell, feat and item choices with the idea that I will always be fighting with a level disadvantage. The fancy failure and critical failure effects get people excited over something that doesn't occur nearly often enough to matter and that virtually never occur in any climactic/important battle.
Stoke the Heart is a very good damage booster that works for all damage rolls. The bard can't match that damage boost. You could even argue it works with Persistent Damage as it states it works with a damage roll.
It seems like a very underestimated hex.
If I could pick additional Hex cantrips independent of Patron, that would definitely be high on my ranking.
Unfortunately it rides along with the Divine spellcasting tradition.
This is pretty spot on. Stoke is a fantastic spell for breaking enemy hordes together with AoE spells, but divine is a miserable list for anyone except the cleric. I also don't agree that fast healing X once a fight from life boost is nearly strong enough to qualify a witch as a healer.
some back and forth about hexes vs compositionsGiven that hexes seem to take the same power budget as compositions,...
in my games its hard to get the players to not play the casters
To further clarify, despite the name "Focus" Cantrips don't interact with Focus Points, they're just class (or feat) specific cantrips. A Bard can cast Inspire Courage, but its not on the Occult spell list for an Occult to Witch or Sorcerer to just take.
There was some discussion about that a couple of pages back and (amazingly) there was broad agreement that the 1 minute lockout is unnecessary. The 1 hex per round limitation on focus cantrips was more contentious.
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What do people here think of multiclassing into Witch (from something else)? (In 1st Edition, VMC Witch was very likely the 2nd worst VMC, saved from worst only by the sheer mind-numbing awfulness of VMC Gunslinger.)
(I'll probably want to ask this again once Secrets of Magic comes out, both if it has more witch stuff in it, and if it looks like Magus multiclassing into Witch is a usable way to approximate a 1st Edition Hexcrafter Magus.)
On top of what people are saying about taking the archetype with classes that already get the int, it's a great one for the level 9 half-elf racial feat. You get a cantrip, you get most of a familiar, and the rest of the familiar comes for free with Basic Witchcraft if you can find a witch 1 or 2 feat that you like enough to buy it with your class 10 slot (or are playing free archetype). Living Hair on a monk is a story that almost writes itself.
So two things I'd like to just point out and curious as to everyone else's thoughts on.
So the Night Patron grants the sleep spell and the lesson of dreams also grants the sleep spell. With the dream lesson as the next up thematically from night, what spell should replace sleep.
Also after looking back over the Witch playtest I found 3 lessons that have not been officially released as well.
Basic Lesson of Deceit - Hex: Beguile and spell: Phantom Pain
Greater Lesson of Secrets - Hex: Discern Secrets and spell: Secret Page
Major Lesson of Boundaries - Hex: Draw Boundary and spell: Private Sanctum
What are your thoughts on these lessons and where could they possibly appear and how should the be adjusted to fit with the finalized Witch.
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So two things I'd like to just point out and curious as to everyone else's thoughts on.
So the Night Patron grants the sleep spell and the lesson of dreams also grants the sleep spell. With the dream lesson as the next up thematically from night, what spell should replace sleep.
Also after looking back over the Witch playtest I found 3 lessons that have not been officially released as well.
Basic Lesson of Deceit - Hex: Beguile and spell: Phantom Pain
Greater Lesson of Secrets - Hex: Discern Secrets and spell: Secret Page
Major Lesson of Boundaries - Hex: Draw Boundary and spell: Private Sanctum
What are your thoughts on these lessons and where could they possibly appear and how should the be adjusted to fit with the finalized Witch.
Discern Secrets got made into the Rune Witch cantrip
Beguile just seems like a focus spell version of Charm - it doesn't really belong as a focus spell, it's not something you really want to cast every 10 minutes. Better just making it a 1st level spell whose effects last until the target rests or until you cast the spell again.
Draw Boundary just seems like a really horrible wall spell.
I just don't understand why lessons are feats. They should be just a class featurr
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Most classes pay with feats for similar things, like bloodlines etc.
But yes witches need more things in the base class.
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Most classes pay with feats for similar things, like bloodlines etc.
I've yet to play a sorcerer that needed to spend feats to get a bloodline. It comes with the class.
Though I suspect you were referring to the focus spells associated with said bloodlines.
Most classes pay with feats for similar things, like bloodlines etc.
But yes witches need more things in the base class.
I get it, I just don't think something so clearly important to a classes identity should be an "optional" feat, because we all know 99% of the time a witch or sorcerer is taking their lesson/bloodline when they get the chance, so it's barely an "option"
I get it, I just don't think something so clearly important to a classes identity should be an "optional" feat, because we all know 99% of the time a witch or sorcerer is taking their lesson/bloodline when they get the chance, so it's barely an "option"Most classes pay with feats for similar things, like bloodlines etc.
But yes witches need more things in the base class.
Not necessarily true. A lot of sorc focus spells are pretty bad and not worth the feat. It's a different story for the witch because you can choose your lessons but even then, most are really bad. Though witch doesn't really have anything better to take at those levels in the first place.
Not necessarily true. A lot of sorc focus spells are pretty bad and not worth the feat. It's a different story for the witch because you can choose your lessons but even then, most are really bad. Though witch doesn't really have anything better to take at those levels in the first place.I get it, I just don't think something so clearly important to a classes identity should be an "optional" feat, because we all know 99% of the time a witch or sorcerer is taking their lesson/bloodline when they get the chance, so it's barely an "option"Most classes pay with feats for similar things, like bloodlines etc.
But yes witches need more things in the base class.
I don't think the lessons are bad at all, at least not the basic ones. Life boost, blood ward, elemental betrayal and needle of vengeance are all pretty good depending on your party's comp.
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Not necessarily true. A lot of sorc focus spells are pretty bad and not worth the feat. It's a different story for the witch because you can choose your lessons but even then, most are really bad. Though witch doesn't really have anything better to take at those levels in the first place.I get it, I just don't think something so clearly important to a classes identity should be an "optional" feat, because we all know 99% of the time a witch or sorcerer is taking their lesson/bloodline when they get the chance, so it's barely an "option"Most classes pay with feats for similar things, like bloodlines etc.
But yes witches need more things in the base class.
That's an issue with sorcerer feats not being well balanced, not whether lesson/bloodlines should be core features vs feats. Personally I rather have core "subclass" features being part of the class, with extras being in feats, but Paizo didn't go that direction for all classes.
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I think basic lessons are too. If anything I think they're too compelling. A witch who skips Basic Lesson almost doesn't have a focus spell and loses a lot of their internal flavor and some of the most compelling reasons to play a witch (as articulated by posters in this thread) comes from what picking the 'correct' lesson enables.
The problem is a level 2 witch will likely have over a dozen feats they could pick from.
The witch's free first level focus spell that's supposed to be comparable to domain spells and such is Phase Familiar, which is just... I had to look at the witch again on AoN to remember what it's called because it's so forgettable. Probably the worst core focus spell in the game. I don't think anyone would be upset if this got excised from the book and replaced with a lesson of your choice.
What I find funny is that Phase Familiar would had been pretty useful if your Familiar didn't return for free at the start of every day.
But people really wanted to get their familiars back right away.
When familiars didn't come back for free it was awful. Make a single mistake and you're just screwed.
That's an issue with sorcerer feats not being well balanced, not whether lesson/bloodlines should be core features vs feats. Personally I rather have core "subclass" features being part of the class, with extras being in feats, but Paizo didn't go that direction for all classes.
The point he was making (or what I took from it at least) was that every witch and sorc would be taking their focus spell feats so it didn't feel optional and therefore should be baked in. I wouldn't object to it being baked in (everyone likes free stuff), but it's far from 99% taking them. Personally, I wish we had the same option to take other things with the automatic bloodline spells sorcs get.
I don't think the lessons are bad at all, at least not the basic ones. Life boost, blood ward, elemental betrayal and needle of vengeance are all pretty good depending on your party's comp.
I'd really only say life boost and elemental betrayal (fire or water) are really worth it. Life boost doesn't tie you up with sustain so it's easy enough to just throw out and elemental betrayal can rack up good damage with enough martials in your party to take advantage of it. Needle and blood ward are laughably easy to ignore by just targeting someone else, if they even need to. Needle being single target means it does nothing vs a horde either and offering a save means the boss is taking pretty low damage as well. Blood ward at least helps mitigate damage and may even help you make a save but it's still purely defensive and requires sustain. One or the other maybe but it being both sours me on it.
Lesson of mischief is the only greater lesson worth considering. Major has frozen queen but that's rare. The only other one you'd want is death to get raise dead on a non-divine list. I really do like mischief though.
Lesson of life is imo really cool, but considerer that the bard hymn of healing is easy to get ( multitalented +1 class feat, or simply lvl 2 and lvl 4 dedication ), I am not sure I'd go for it.
The 2 are different enough to not invalidate each other:
Hymn of healing is 2 action and require sustains but gives temporary HP on initial cast.
Life Boost is 1 action and do not need sustain.
Now, as Hymn of healing is a composition and Life Boost an Hex, they limit the use of abilities with these so I can see the point of going dedication to play around that.
Having both on a (support) character doesn't seem great though,it would be a bit to Focus point intensive.
I don't think it's worthwhile comparing Witch to Bard, pretty much everything Bard does it's insanely good at.