Wait...why did reading about Irori make you want to build an archer?
I mean, he's a perfectionist god, but like, you could try to be a perfectionist of anything...so I'm not sure why you went to archer.
Monk makes perfect since, as he IS the "default" monk deity.
In any case, Zen Archer is in an incredibly front loaded class and you don't get much by staying it it beyond like 3/5 levels. It's great for a multiclass, especially with something like Inquisitor. It allows you to forgo dex and focus on strength and wisdom and grants you a bunch of great archery feats. Honestly, you can stop at level 3 and transition to something else.
Sohei...is a much different commitment. Sohei can't flurry with his bow until level 6, when he finally gets weapon training. So you're not really an archer for a while, or your ignoring a big class feature.
One thing to remember with the Zen Archer, is that you will likely end up not using flurry eventually. Long term it's beneficial to pick up Rapid Shot and Manyshot vs using Flurry. You're bow flurry will only get one extra attack from your monk levels, which is slightly better than rapid shot (which gives you an extra attack but with a -2 penalty to all attacks). But many shot gives you another attack with no penalty. And you can't combine rapid shot/manyshot with Flurry.
Far strike monks aren't exactly archers but they do attack at range. Or with a maneuver that works with a ranged attack (sunder by default, possibly others with a dip into some relevant class/archetype or with higher level feats) a maneuver master monk can flurry with a bow.
The zen archer and sohei are more efficient than either, but those are different options.
while as Claxon said, you can't flurry and rapid shot/manyshot, if using Unchained, you can eventually pickup Ki Hurricane and be a royal pain in any combat as you zip around the battlefield while making your full compliment of flurry arrow shots...that seems kind of fun!
Zen Archer Monk still has their scaling Fast Movement and Abundant Step, can take the Dimensional Savant feats, benefits from flanking with themself because they threaten the squares around them at level 9... if you wanted to get up close and personal... could actually be a silly amount of fun. Be a Strix, worship Irori, take the Wisdom of the Flesh trait to put Fly on Wisdom. Enjoy.
For Sohei, I like the good old tried and true Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoos, Shaman's Apprentice, Fate's Favored, and a HornBow... ride a battle-trained Bison.
One thing to remember with the Zen Archer, is that you will likely end up not using flurry eventually. Long term it's beneficial to pick up Rapid Shot and Manyshot vs using Flurry. You're bow flurry will only get one extra attack from your monk levels, which is slightly better than rapid shot (which gives you an extra attack but with a -2 penalty to all attacks). But many shot gives you another attack with no penalty. And you can't combine rapid shot/manyshot with Flurry.
I had the impression Zen Archer was core monk only (which you can houserule around obviously).
In which case, non-flurry with rapid shot/manyshot would be +13(2 attack manyshot)/+13/+8/+3 vs +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 for a basic flurry routine. Maybe i am misunderstanding?
Zen Archer is technically core monk only, but I'm confused by your numbers here.
Your flurry stops progressing when your stop taking levels in monk, which I recommended after level 3. At level 3, you only get one extra attack from flurry.
So If I'm looking at say a 15th level character, with 3 levels of zen archer and 12 levels of Inquisitor then they would have a BAB of 11. If they used flurry, I believe it should be 12/12/7/2. For not flurry, but using Rapid Shot and Multishot I think it should be 9(x2)/9/4/-1.
It's really weird to do the math because Flurry acts as pseudo full BAB and stacks with BAB from other classes interacts weird.
In any event, you get more attacks with Rapid Shot + Manyshot, but you'll be more accurate with flurry. But if you go Inquisitor, you'll be adding all sorts of bonuses to attack, and so that difference in BAB is actually less pronounced than it seems.
And it should be noted I'm not adding in bonus from dex(or strength) to attack rolls, nor magic weapons, or anything else.
What I'm really confused about is how you got +18 (max for a flurry routine)and are comparing it to a +13 for a non-flurry routine.
Edit: It looks like you were comparing a single class zen archer monk at 20th level-thier flurry routine, vs using their regular (non-flurry) BAB with Rapid Shot and Manyshot.
Yes of course that's worse. If you were to go single class zen archer you would never want to pickup Rapid Shot and Many Shot.
But we're not going full Zen Archer, because while the 20th level zen archer gets a lot of attacks, they don't get too much to buff the damage of those attacks.
Going Zen Archer 3/Inquisitor X gets you access to Bane, Greater Bane, Judgements (for both attack and damage), and all kinds of spells.
It wont have as many attacks, 5 vs 7. But the multiclass character will actually have a higher to hit because of all the bonuses Inquisitor provides (judgement, greater bane, divine favor/power) and much higher damage because of all those same things.
And it should be noted I'm not adding in bonus from dex(or strength) to attack rolls, nor magic weapons, or anything else.
What I'm really confused about is how you got +18 (max for a flurry routine)and are comparing it to a +13 for a non-flurry routine.
Edit: It looks like you were comparing a single class zen archer monk at 20th level-thier flurry routine, vs using their regular (non-flurry) BAB with Rapid Shot and Manyshot.
Yes of course that's worse. If you were to go single class zen archer you would never want to pickup Rapid Shot and Many Shot.
But we're not going full Zen Archer, because while the 20th level zen archer gets a lot of attacks, they don't get too much to buff the damage of those attacks.
Going Zen Archer 3/Inquisitor X gets you access to Bane, Greater Bane, Judgements (for both attack and damage), and all kinds of spells.
It wont have as many attacks, 5 vs 7. But the multiclass character will actually have a higher to hit because of all the bonuses Inquisitor provides (judgement, greater bane, divine favor/power) and much higher damage because of all those same things.
ZAM 3/Inquisitor X is legit... I had one in my Kingmaker campaign, scary she was. Crazy effective.
I wouldn't at all call that character a Monk Archer, though.
Bolt Ace Gunslinger 5/Sohei 6... Flurry with a 17-20/×4 Dwarven PelletBow... Grit and Ki, Nimble, Dex to damage, Deeds...
At 11:
BAB +9
Base saves +9/+9/+6
I guess that's fair VoodistMonk. It is pretty light on the monk side of things.
If you're doing a pure monk (or at least mostly monk) character I would probably lean toward the Zen Archer, if only because waiting 6 levels to be able to flurry with bow as a Sohei kind of sucks.
Also, at low levels the Zen Archer will just be better. It's not until the Sohei has picked up all the good archery feats and is combining flurry with rapid shot and manyshot (the sohei version of flurry doesn't preclude it like the zen archer's does) on top of the other needed feats that the sohei pulls ahead.
And zen archer gets point blank master earlier than anyone, and just gets a bunch of bonus archery feats that makes it come together way earlier.
It's a much better play experience if you're starting at level 1, in my opinion.
Commenting to the zen archer/inquisitor, it can be even more crazy effective if you play a small race, take the chivalry inquisition which grants you a mount with full progression. Now your mounted (on a mount that fits inside anywhere) and your character has become a mobile turret, making full attacks every turn because you never need to use your move action to reposition.
So If I'm looking at say a 15th level character, with 3 levels of zen archer and 12 levels of Inquisitor then they would have a BAB of 11. If they used flurry, I believe it should be 12/12/7/2. For not flurry, but using Rapid Shot and Multishot I think it should be 9(x2)/9/4/-1.
It's really weird to do the math because Flurry acts as pseudo full BAB and stacks with BAB from other classes interacts weird.
Your math for the attack routine is off... monk 3 is +2 BAB, wat priest 12 is 9/4.That brings it to 11/6/1 before any modifiers. Flurry would be 10/10/5/0 (monk +2 becomes +3, war priest is still 9/4, and flurry has a -2 penalty). Multishot was correct at 9/9/4/-1... so a Multiclass zen archer gets next to no benefit from flurry over multishot+rapid shot.
While zen archer might not offer much after level 3, a full 20th level zen archer can still output some serious damage. Though, I do agree zen archer is best served as a 3-5level dip...
Sohei is arguably more advantageous for a full monk build... but the late access to ranged flurry is rough... and your stat focus as a sohei is far more broad than as a zen archer... with a zen archer you can largely ignore dex building pure strength wisdom, but for sohei you still need dex for attack... additionally the monk bonus feats on sohei do not benefit ranged monks, while zen archer offers nothing but ranged feats.
I see where I went wrong, I wasn't adding in the -2 penalty to the flurry routine. It is still the same number of attacks, but at 10/10/5/0. Which is much more comparable to the 9(x2)/9/4/-1.
The analysis works out the same though, Zen Archer flurry isn't advantageous when you don't stay in the class the whole way. And when so many other classes can offer more in terms of attack and damage bonuses (I mean really ZAM doensn't have much, they increase their bow damage die by spending ki, but it's not a great deal) it's really hard to justify sticking with it, IMO.
Sohei will definite output more damage long term, but getting there is a huge pain. And waiting 6 levels before you can even use a bow really sucks. It's not exactly screaming monk archer, unless you start out at high levels.
If you only look at level 20 builds the Sohei. If you start at level 1 the zen archer actually works as an archer. Somewhere between level 6 and level 20 the sohei overtakes the zen archer, but I'm honestly not sure where.
You should consider the zen archer's flurry to be a super-rapid-shot, which is why it's incompatible with regular rapid shot.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You should consider the zen archer's flurry to be a super-rapid-shot, which is why it's incompatible with regular rapid shot.
The problem with that perspective is in the fact that Sohei exists... a Sohei monk can flurry of blows with a bow and STILL add both rapid shot and multishot on... while a zen archer explicitly cannot... and it’s not even a general rule in regards to ranged flurries either... as a standard monk with shuriken can also flurry+rapid shot, and has for a long time been considered a valid and balanced build...
Sohei would rely on a relatively normal archery build...
1(race): Endurance
1(monk): Combat Reflexes
1(level): Point Blank Shot
2(monk): Mounted Combat
3(level): Precise Shot
5(level): Rapid Shot
6(monk): Mounted Archery
Flurry is "full" BAB -2, giving us:
+4/+4/-1...
Rapid Shot is another -2:
+2/+2/+2/-3
Mounted Archery is also -2, so:
+0/+0/+0/-5
I don't like it, to say the least. Even Weapon Training only adds +1 at this point... the Gloves of Dueling are probably still a few levels out. Ki Weapon gets you another +1, but you're burning resources at this point, and you might want to add extra shots to your Flurry with your Ki, too.
If we totally forget being mounted, pick up Dodge and Deflect Arrows at 2 and 6. Or Improved Trip at 6, and work towards Ranged/Ace Trip...? You have Weapon Training, after all.
Sohei:
1(race): Endurance
1(monk): Combat Reflexes
1(level): Point Blank Shot
2(monk): Dodge
3(level): Precise Shot
5(level): Rapid Shot
6(monk): Improved Trip
Whatever class you want:
7. Deadly Aim
9. Ranged Trip
11. Ace Trip
|
Honestly, I'd just go half orc arsenal Chaplin warpriest of irori. Use the spell Channel Vigor that only Irori offers. Call it a day.
At 6th you can grab many shot as a bonus feat. Use human fc bonus (as a half orc) to get another feat at 6. Maybe point blank master or weapon specialization.
Use orc horn bow. Take all standard archer feats. Fates favored trait.
Between fates favored, divine favor, and Channel vigor the to hit is pretty good. Even after rapid shot and deadly aim
Arsenal Chaplain archer is good...but completely misses the monk part.
Unless you're suggesting Zen Archer Monk 3/Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest X, which is roughly equivalent to the Inquisitor. Both are very powerful, very similar builds.
I prefer the Inquisitor though, because I can get a mount. And mounted archery is just so damn good.
Now, Strix Zen Archer looks a little bit more like this:
1(monk): Precise Shot
1(level): Hover
2(monk): Weapon Focus
2(monk): Dodge
3(monk): Point Blank Master
3(level): Fly-by Attack
5(level): Improved Initiative
6(monk): Weapon Specialization
6(monk): Improved Precise Shot
Just for completeness sake, the menhir guardian monk can flurry with a sling.
Arsenal Chaplain archer is good...but completely misses the monk part.
Unless you're suggesting Zen Archer Monk 3/Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest X, which is roughly equivalent to the Inquisitor. Both are very powerful, very similar builds.
I prefer the Inquisitor though, because I can get a mount. And mounted archery is just so damn good.
I don't know what the Arsenal Chaplain does, but could you instead go Sacred Fist for the monk-iness? Air Blessing works well for ranged characters, Blessing of Fervor, Channel Vitality or Divine Power will get you a haste attack. Sure you'll be doing just regular bow damage, but you have a good many buffs and can hit from pretty much unlimited range (as far as most any encounter is concerned). They have channel so you could work into Guided Hand so that you're not so reliant on physical stats.
Sacred first wouldn't work to be an archer at all.
Only the zen archer and sohei can make their flurry compatible with a bow.
So yes, you could technically make a sacred fist archer...they would be bad as it. Their main class feature wouldn't work.
Well I guess you could go the hard route of crusader's flurry, but you can't grab it until you get the channel energy class feature.
And besides, ever since the sacred fist got nerfed (their BAB during flurry doesn't count as their level) it's...bad.
I mean you can still buff yourself, but your going to be mad trying to increase dex, str, and wisdom.
You get the monk fill, but you'd honestly just be making a sub par character.
Oh, and you'd need to worship a deity with a favored weapon of a longbow...which isn't going to be Irori.