In need of subtle hints, the party doesn't realize the plot NPC is a lady.


Advice


Greetings.

The layout:
Home game. The party occassionally has meetings and support from a plot related NPC, a local baron's daughter. She's disguised whenever she goes out. To the point where neither clothes nor voice give away who or what she is.

The party was convinced from the start the contact is male, despite neither side had ever been suggested in any form, and thus never inquired into it.

Plotwise, there will come an assassination attempt on the baron's daughter in the near future. She herself is unaware. The party will soon learn though.

I need the party to figure out their contact is her, before this happens.

Hints i had given, but no response in return:
Glimpse of hairless arms.
Bandages.
A sudden impulse of buying a particular set of jewelry, and wearing those in altered form of a young woman.
Likes sweet things.
Does not share rooms.

I'm running out of inspiration for small hints. Anyone got more ideas?


Yelling "Kyaa!" when supersized should do the trick..

a bit subtler things might be:

- saying things like "i am not a laying\dishonest man" when talking about serious stuff. but then keep laying about a lot of things (well she is NOT a laying man)

- going gaga over cute puppies and babies.

- having matching clothes, shoes and belt pouches.

- having a bag of holding full with nothing but shoes\boots\sandals etc.

- always late.

and if all of this is still not enough go for the more obvious things:

- baby (or adult) unicorn follow her around and snuggle at her.
- can't look straight at a shirtless macho man without giggling.
- giggling
- when stressed her swear words seem to evolve around saying 'Oh sugar' a lot...

and when all else fail. a little boy (her younger brother that has been stalking her). runs to her crying & yelling "Aneue"

Sovereign Court

The Fiend Fantastic wrote:

Greetings.

The layout:
Home game. The party occassionally has meetings and support from a plot related NPC, a local baron's daughter. She's disguised whenever she goes out. To the point where neither clothes nor voice give away who or what she is.

The party was convinced from the start the contact is male, despite neither side had ever been suggested in any form, and thus never inquired into it.

Plotwise, there will come an assassination attempt on the baron's daughter in the near future. She herself is unaware. The party will soon learn though.

I need the party to figure out their contact is her, before this happens.

Hints i had given, but no response in return:
Glimpse of hairless arms.
Bandages.
A sudden impulse of buying a particular set of jewelry, and wearing those in altered form of a young woman.
Likes sweet things.
Does not share rooms.

I'm running out of inspiration for small hints. Anyone got more ideas?

The obvious thing is just to keep it simple and switch the genders.

The NPC is the baron’s son and is about to be murdered.

Unless the story has some important element regarding her gender, just flip it and your players will never know.

—-

Alternatively, men and women tend to have different builds. Men have Adam’s apples, we tend to have different posture and gait (due to skeletal/muscular differences). Those could be clues.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

drop the bomb

"does this cloak make me look fat?"

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would avoid heavy stereotypes. They could easily come across as clumsy, failed disguise checks.
They might also annoy people.

The most sweet-toothed person I’ve met was my grandfather: a big man who worked at a car plant, met his mates to play snooker and darts and had a shed full of tools that he used to make/repair things for the house.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

It sounds like you don't really need to give hints that it's a lady. ("Well, that narrows it down to half of all sentient humanoids.") You need to give hints that it's this specific person.

I don't know to what extent they know this baron's daughter, but possible clues would be:

Both the daughter and the stranger use the same phrases.

The daughter mentions something that only the stranger should know.

The stranger gets an injury; later, the daughter has the same injury. Or vice versa.

The stranger pays them for help with a valuable item that they previously spotted in the baron's home.

The stranger says something about her father that accidentally reveals to them who her father is.

They have to sneak in to the daughter's room for some reason, and while there they find the strangers clothes.


zz ani wrote:

Yelling "Kyaa!" when supersized should do the trick..

a bit subtler things might be:

- saying things like "i am not a laying\dishonest man" when talking about serious stuff. but then keep laying about a lot of things (well she is NOT a laying man)

- going gaga over cute puppies and babies.

- having matching clothes, shoes and belt pouches.

- having a bag of holding full with nothing but shoes\boots\sandals etc.

- always late.

and if all of this is still not enough go for the more obvious things:

- baby (or adult) unicorn follow her around and snuggle at her.
- can't look straight at a shirtless macho man without giggling.
- giggling
- when stressed her swear words seem to evolve around saying 'Oh sugar' a lot...

and when all else fail. a little boy (her younger brother that has been stalking her). runs to her crying & yelling "Aneue"

Haha, no, she wouldn't do the 'kyaa' thing. Too obvious, and unlike her.

Perhaps a little more background info on her: daddy baron is very protective/overly concerned, and she was the sole daughter among 4 siblings. She therefor not become too girly in that regard for the options you mentioned.

--------------

Geraint wrote:
Alternatively, men and women tend to have different builds. Men have Adam’s apples, we tend to have different posture and gait (due to skeletal/muscular differences). Those could be clues.

True, though she's hiding the lack thereof behind a mask and hood, when not at the castle. She's overly cautious.

Her outfit would probably be best described, as something similar to a adventurer outfit - meets - venice costume.

Geraint wrote:

I would avoid heavy stereotypes. They could easily come across as clumsy, failed disguise checks.
They might also annoy people.

The most sweet-toothed person I’ve met was my grandfather: a big man who worked at a car plant, met his mates to play snooker and darts and had a shed full of tools that he used to make/repair things for the house.

No stereotyping intended, though my experience in school and at work, is that 3 out of 5 times, rough estimate, the girls were enjoying the sweeter consumptions. I tried looking for types of food, that'd be more in favor with women than with men, and sweet things often came up.

Though admittedly i, too, have a weakness for a particular 2 kinds.
Spoiler:

Liquorice allsorts, for one.

Sounds like a cool grand dad, Geraint.

------------------------

Matthew Downie wrote:
It sounds like you don't really need to give hints that it's a lady. ("Well, that narrows it down to half of all sentient humanoids.") You need to give hints that it's this specific person.

I expect they will deduce her identity once they figure out she's a she.

At current time, they have not yet entered the baron's castle before.


You could try using some gender specific magic/spell effects (I know there are at least a few) that either fail to work on the stranger, or conversely, work when they shouldn't. Even if the players don't know, have that trigger an appropriate knowledge check. Alternatively, you could introduce or reference an all female society or organization that the stranger references, appropriate knowledge local or nobility check to pick up on the slip. Even if you're players just aren't getting it, you should be able to slip in a mechanic like that to provide them a bette clue without it being too much like a club over the head.

On the othe hand, why do they characters NEED to know the stranger is a woman before hand?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Matthew's comments are spot on. Clues are much harder to spot than GM's realise. I'm on the phone so linking is too hard but Google 'Rule of 3 Alexandrian' for some great advice. You may want to consider pointing out some clues, like Matthew's example of a phrase, you could say OOC to the PCs with decent Knowledge (Local) it's uncommon but you have heard it before.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Derek Dalton wrote:
A simple way is Perception versus Disguise have her fail it. He the man has Breasts. Wait what? They should start them asking questions. Something to consider with all the new transgendered people some of those going to a different sex they don't transition well. I have a friend who was a man to a woman. He is my friend but he is Not a good looking woman. You can tell he's a man trying to be a woman. The same ir true for woman.

This is wildly offensive, btw. In general, to trans folks and women.

And insanely inaccurate. Not every person who identifies as a woman has noticable, stereotypical "feminine" features. People come in all shapes and sizes. And there's totally real world ways to conceal your sex before magic comes into play.

Here's a tip: if you have a trans friend, don't call them "transgendered" unless they specifically prefer this. It's generally "trans" or "transgender". Or nonbinary, often.

Additional tip: Putting down your friend's appearance on the internet makes you look at best like a bad friend to a very longsuffering person.


@ Derek, on perception vs disguise.
Usually that's the way for disguises. The baron's daughter actually uses bandages to cover up. Akin to the japanese Sarashi wraps. She is a thorough preparing type, in that regard.

The party, on their assumption from the start, hadn't even bothered for a perception check.

@ Sysryke, i was unaware there are gender related spells. Such a method of scanning could be implemented somewhere.
As to why they should be aware, it is so they can deduce it is the baron's daughter, and can warn her directly about the assassination attempt, whether they are forthcoming with seeing through her disguise or not.

@ Hugo, i'll have a look into that Alexandrian 3. Thank you.


have the party spot a specific piece of jewellery that the baron's daughter has been known to wear ... perhaps a signant ring she forgot to remove during a quick change into her "alternate identity".

Have a party member physically bump into her and notice an obvious boossom.

Have them meet the baron's daughter in the marketplace or on some official meeting and have them notice she has the same exact cloak hanging nearby that the contact always wears.

spoiler .... yes I am going there ....

during a conversation with the contact, have a familiar or animal pet with scent take interest in the contact. The front of her cloak has a fresh stain of red fluid. .... if that isn't obvious I don't know what else is.


in regard to the perception checks .... as GM you could either call for one or use a "passive" perception based on their usual bonus. Someone with a +10 perception is going to notice a lot even when they aren't specifically looking.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Fiend Fantastic wrote:


The party, on their assumption from the start, hadn't even bothered for a perception check.

The player may not have thought to ask for a perception check, but the character is perceiving things all the time. Have you made checks to see if the character has noticed the disguise and relayed the characters' observations back to the players?

You as the GM are entirely responsible for describing your game world to the players. If they have failed to ask for a perception check then you have failed to give them a sufficiently clear prompt.


The Fiend Fantastic wrote:

@ Sysryke, i was unaware there are gender related spells. Such a method of scanning could be implemented somewhere.
As to why they should be aware, it is so they can deduce it is the baron's daughter, and can warn her directly about the assassination attempt, whether they are forthcoming with seeing through her disguise or not.

I might be mis-remembering from 3.x, but I'm pretty sure there are some enchantments that will only work on those of the opposite sex of the caster, though that may have been more to do with traditional, hetero-assumptive writing about "attraction". Alternatively, you could use some kind of ward or alarm spell where the parameters are allowed to be set. Only men, or women, or nobles, or 'x' may pass kind of deals. When she is tripped or tossed across, that should be a pretty big give away.


@ Hugo,

Failed is such a horrible word. We don't play the passive perception route this game.
Whether players inspect something or not, i leave up to them. Maybe in the future i will, but not for now.
Perceptions are also so so, we're still in the low levels.

Am i sometimes surprised they inspect something useless? Sure, but can be fun.
Am i sometimes surprised they don't inspect something important? Also sure. More often than not, they remind themselves to inspect things like that in the future.

That said, i do believe i've gotten some good ideas from the feedback.
Thank you all. :)


2 people marked this as a favorite.

is it imperative that they stop the assassination?

I'd have it go off and then have her ghost appear before them with one last mission; avenge her

Then they can kind of work backwards as to why this random ass noble ghost came to them, how it found them or even knew of them and in the process discover it was her all along. Then they can follow the clues back to her killers and get some just revenge and put her soul to rest. Can get clues like they overhear someone mentioning the assassination and that the assassins thought they had the wrong bloke at first as they were hiding in their closest and it had men's clothes in it, or something along those lines.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Another thing you can do is contradict them if they infer that you gave them information that you didn't give them. For example, if they say that they know their contact is a man, you could point out that the person was well enough disguised that they actually can't be sure of anything even that basic. After that, be sure to give them one or more clues such as the ones Matthew suggested.


The Fiend Fantastic wrote:

@ Hugo,

Failed is such a horrible word. We don't play the passive perception route this game.
Whether players inspect something or not, i leave up to them. Maybe in the future i will, but not for now.
Perceptions are also so so, we're still in the low levels.

Am i sometimes surprised they inspect something useless? Sure, but can be fun.
Am i sometimes surprised they don't inspect something important? Also sure. More often than not, they remind themselves to inspect things like that in the future.

That said, i do believe i've gotten some good ideas from the feedback.
Thank you all. :)

Fair enough and I didn't mean to be as harsh as I came across. One thing you should consider though by not using passive or hidden checks is that you are changing the game dynamic from PC v NPC to player v GM. In this case you are (I presume) a man roleplaying a woman pretending to be a man. The player has to distinguish your acting role from your narration role and recognise without any other reference that you are lying to him when you say 'a man approaches you and whispers in a put on accent...'. It's really no wonder they aren't getting the clues as they can't distinguish your roles and have to believe what you say. If you were to do an opposed perception check against the disguise in secret you could pass a clue back along the lines 'you notice the man's stride is unusual, more effeminate than expected' and if they did really well on the check you could add 'and poised, like somebody used to being seen in public.'


Two questions:
1. Is revealing their contacts gender really going to help them identify who their contact is? It sounds like you're trying to give a clue to a clue that may not go anywhere. The odds of the clue eliciting a "oh, neat" seem higher than it going anywhere. I'd focus on clues that point directly to her. Half your population is women, this won't narrow things down quickly.

2. Are they trying to identify their contact? It's something you want them to uncover, but where is it on their list of priorities? Right now it sounds like there's a life or death deadline to uncovering something, but the players don't know it's life or death, or that there's a deadline, hopefully they have interest in the something otherwise you're the only one at the table playing the game.

But, to answer the question you asked. They probably smell different when compared to people who aren't nobles. I'd guess a baron's daughter would have better penmanship than most people. Their choice of words and idioms also probably reflect their favored life. Their conversational cadence should be distinct, even if their voice is unrecognizable. They could have tools that are very uncommon for the lower class, but pass unnoticed with nobles, like a key ring.


Having re-read the OP and spurred on from ErichAD's comment. I think the OP needs to ask the who, what, why questions from the players' perspective.

First and foremost: Why should they care who the contact is? The players will no doubt be given some information by a mysterious person, which leads to the next adventure. Back in town the mysterious person provides more information and the next adventure begins. The players have learnt that the mysterious person is the adventure hook for joining the campaign together and are enjoying the GM's story unfold. It hasn't occurred to the players that they should seek out the true identity of the mysterious person.

Perhaps the GM should ask the players why their characters aren't curious about who they are working for? That might shunt the players onto the right track.


The Fiend Fantastic wrote:

@ Derek, on perception vs disguise.

Usually that's the way for disguises. The baron's daughter actually uses bandages to cover up. Akin to the japanese Sarashi wraps. She is a thorough preparing type, in that regard.

The party, on their assumption from the start, hadn't even bothered for a perception check.

So I want to break this down, because in my opinion, there's a lot that you've done incorrectly here. And I don't mean that to be rude, it's simply an statement from my perspective.

1) Even if a person is thorough in their disguise, it's still a disguise check. You can give a situational bonus that you feel is appropriate. ON the high end, I probably wouldn't give over a +10. In fact, even a +10 is probably too much, since that's what Disguise Self spell gives, and that's magically concealing what you look like with actual illusion to look like someone else. No sarashi wrap is going to exceed that.

2) Players can't ask to make a check for what they have no suspicion is there. Asking the players to always ask for a perception check is just not the appropriate thing to do in my opinion. If there is an invisible key in the middle of the floor should the players really be asking to inspect every 5ft square of the floor they're near? NO! You should be making secret checks whenever the players come within a reasonable distance and see if the notice it. Perception is mostly about noticing something in the first place. In order for a player to ask for a perception check, they need to already be aware of something, or they're just being suspicious for suspicions shake. Which slows the game to a grinding halt as they inspect every 5ft square in every room they come across.

Players shouldn't be the ones asking to make most perception checks. It should typically be reactive, unless players are actively searching for something. Then they can ask to make checks to find something. But noticing that the man you're talking to is actually a woman in disguise should be a secret check that you as a GM make on behalf of the players against the NPCs disguise check.

To be honest, I think you've run things incorrectly and if I was one of your players I'd probably be in the same boat.


ErichAD wrote:

Two questions:

1. Is revealing their contacts gender really going to help them identify who their contact is? It sounds like you're trying to give a clue to a clue that may not go anywhere. The odds of the clue eliciting a "oh, neat" seem higher than it going anywhere. I'd focus on clues that point directly to her. Half your population is women, this won't narrow things down quickly.

Maybe it's one of those fictional worlds with an extreme gender imbalance. Like, in Return of the Jedi, if you realise a character is a woman in disguise, you're going to suspect it's Princess Leia, because who else is it going to be?


The Fiend Fantastic wrote:

Greetings.

The layout:
Home game. The party occassionally has meetings and support from a plot related NPC, a local baron's daughter. She's disguised whenever she goes out. To the point where neither clothes nor voice give away who or what she is.

The party was convinced from the start the contact is male, despite neither side had ever been suggested in any form, and thus never inquired into it.

Plotwise, there will come an assassination attempt on the baron's daughter in the near future. She herself is unaware. The party will soon learn though.

I need the party to figure out their contact is her, before this happens.

Hints i had given, but no response in return:
Glimpse of hairless arms.
Bandages.
A sudden impulse of buying a particular set of jewelry, and wearing those in altered form of a young woman.
Likes sweet things.
Does not share rooms.

I'm running out of inspiration for small hints. Anyone got more ideas?

So, my only question is this: why should the PCs be suspicious enough to wonder who this person is?

Like, there's a big difference in narrative style by saying "As you go to purchase rooms for the night, the masked figure says 'I'll get my own room.'" and "As you go to purchase rooms for the night the masked figure screams 'NO SHARED ROOMS! I MUST have my own room for... privacy...'" the last word emphasized by the GM's eyes shifting nervously between all the players as the NPC seems to retreat from the party.

I have an NPC that the players had to determine if she was a good guy or a bad guy. In the beginning she was working for a local inn, helping them with alchemy and herbalism. Later they met her again but she was now working with a demon. They captured her and imprisoned her, at which point she began feeding the party good tips on evil in the region while professing her innocence. Sure, there's spells to help reveal the NPC's alignment but the PCs still didn't trust them.

Why?

Because when I played her in her cell, claiming she'd been controlled by the demon, I ACTED like I was lying. I wanted the players to doubt this NPC. In reality her alignment is CN and she's ACTUALLY in league with the fey, spreading lies and rumors to point the PCs at enemies of said fey.

The players are STARTING to figure it out and definitely know she's lying now, but for the first couple missions they went on for her they straight up DIDN'T QUESTION this NPC. If I don't give the players reasons to be suspicious, they won't be and by extension, their characters won't be.


Mark Hoover wrote:
So, my only question is this: why should the PCs be suspicious enough to wonder who this person is?

They had yet to encounter a masked or shady robed figure up to that point.

@ Claxon, i get where you're coming from with that logic. But frankly, we're pretty casual about it, we generally play things this way, whoever has the role of GM. Different people, different tastes.
And generally, perception rolls are rarely forgotten by the players.
We're aiming more for the fun than the RAW, regarding strictness of application.

Would it be society play style, then the game would be very different, indeed. There was, i recall, even a mission wherein an erinye hides their wings underneath heavy, loose falling clothes. A sarashi underneath both regular clothes and leather armor seems trivial in comparison, in my impression.

ErichAd wrote:

Two questions:

1. Is revealing their contacts gender really going to help them identify who their contact is? It sounds like you're trying to give a clue to a clue that may not go anywhere. The odds of the clue eliciting a "oh, neat" seem higher than it going anywhere. I'd focus on clues that point directly to her. Half your population is women, this won't narrow things down quickly.

2. Are they trying to identify their contact? It's something you want them to uncover, but where is it on their list of priorities? Right now it sounds like there's a life or death deadline to uncovering something, but the players don't know it's life or death, or that there's a deadline, hopefully they have interest in the something otherwise you're the only one at the table playing the game.

To #1: That is related to plot, actually. The baron had defeated a dream demon many years ago. Said demon, as any proper villain often does, swore revenge. 'i shall take what you and your kind hold dear'.

Cue said demon has returned, and the children and women of the residents of the barronny, are no longer waking up. For some mysterious reason, the daughter is the only woman not affected, which has spread as a rumor. Desperate times, giving rise to the deluded idea that maybe a deal could be struck with the demon, if given the daughter of the baron.

To #2: They have not made specific effort thus far, no. As far as they are currently concerned, it's a friendly NPC who feeds them info from time to time. Hence me asking for advice here, before i'd have to improvise something to make it more clear.

Somehow i'm getting the feeling the trail went from advice, towards 'what you aught to do'
Going over the suggestions again, it's plausibly a better angle, indeed, going the way with circumstance quirks and mannerism.

So again, thanks for the ideas and suggestions.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Fiend Fantastic wrote:


@ Claxon, i get where you're coming from with that logic. But frankly, we're pretty casual about it, we generally play things this way, whoever has the role of GM. Different people, different tastes.
And generally, perception rolls are rarely forgotten by the players.
We're aiming more for the fun than the RAW, regarding strictness of application.

Would it be society play style, then the game would be very different, indeed. There was, i recall, even a mission wherein an erinye hides their wings underneath heavy, loose falling clothes. A sarashi underneath both regular clothes and leather armor seems trivial in comparison, in my impression.

I mean, if you're arguing for fun...I'm super confused.

For me as a player, it's way more when I don't have to guess that something might be there, and instead the GM makes rolls to determine if my character notices or trusts me not to metagame and just openly asks for a perception check (this is what my table usually does).

It's not fun for me to have to say I'm check every 5ft square for a trap or something interesting.

So honestly your argument to me just makes no sense, and seems to be an impediment to the game flow your looking for.

And honestly, the way I'm discussing running really isn't "RAW". The rules don't really give a lot of guidance on how to handle this issue.

And this isn't passive perception thing, because passive perception is the concept of basically giving your players a constant take 10 instead of rolling a check, and then telling them what they've found based on that.

What we're discussing is more the social contract of as a player you can't see the game world, except what the GM describes. If something is supposed to be hidden or obscured (like a disguise) then as a player you have no way of knowing unless the GM tells you. The GM doesn't want to tell you unless you meet some criteria. But you don't know to ask. So the social convention (for fun, IMO) is that the GM roll without telling the players, and then let them know if they find anything.

I really don't understand how you expect your players to know to ask for a perception check against this NPC. Sure you made some off hand remarks, but how do they know if it's important?


The Fiend Fantastic wrote:

Greetings.

The layout:
Home game. The party occassionally has meetings and support from a plot related NPC, a local baron's daughter. She's disguised whenever she goes out. To the point where neither clothes nor voice give away who or what she is.

The party was convinced from the start the contact is male, despite neither side had ever been suggested in any form, and thus never inquired into it.

Plotwise, there will come an assassination attempt on the baron's daughter in the near future. She herself is unaware. The party will soon learn though.

I need the party to figure out their contact is her, before this happens.

Hints i had given, but no response in return:
Glimpse of hairless arms.
Bandages.
A sudden impulse of buying a particular set of jewelry, and wearing those in altered form of a young woman.
Likes sweet things.
Does not share rooms.

I'm running out of inspiration for small hints. Anyone got more ideas?

Without diving into gender stereotypes, I have both questions and suggestions:

Q: Does the party know this person much at all? (If so, could they reach a point in directly confiding in them?)
S: If there is a local bath house, perhaps they wait until it is empty to use it (though I presume that they would simply go back home...) and perhaps something subtle about the bath house (like the water in one section is scented with rose petals and the other with lavender)
Q: The jewelry, you said it was "particular" - was it obviously unique?
S: A minor injury to the person requires the party healer to assist. Perhaps you send information to that person in particular (whisper, text, whatever), and see how they utilize it. Maybe they beg the healer to keep it a secret, and the healer is forced to make a choice when they learn of the assassination plot.
Q: Online or in person game? (May not have an impact, but curious)
Q: Do the players only know the contact well in their current guise, or do they know both the disguised and non-disguised person well?
S: If yes to knowing both well, perhaps a slip when the Baron's daughter mentions something only the contact would know, or vice versa.


Claxon wrote:
I mean, if you're arguing for fun...I'm super confused.

No arguing intended. Heck i'm seeing enough of it between colleagues at work, as of late.

It's been a tiring day, much as everyone has from time to time. I guess your comment came across a little stronger than intended due to it, and some misinterpretation on my part.

Quote:
I really don't understand how you expect your players to know to ask for a perception check against this NPC. Sure you made some off hand remarks, but how do they know if it's important?

There's not really an expectation, more an assumption they would do the check, but had not. Hence i needed more ideas to get the identity across via other means. The board's a trove of ideas.

Skrayper wrote:

Without diving into gender stereotypes, I have both questions and suggestions:

Q: Does the party know this person much at all? (If so, could they reach a point in directly confiding in them?)
S: If there is a local bath house, perhaps they wait until it is empty to use it (though I presume that they would simply go back home...) and perhaps something subtle about the bath house (like the water in one section is scented with rose petals and the other with lavender)
Q: The jewelry, you said it was "particular" - was it obviously unique?
S: A minor injury to the person requires the party healer to assist. Perhaps you send information to that person in particular (whisper, text, whatever), and see how they utilize it. Maybe they beg the healer to keep it a secret, and the healer is forced to make a choice when they learn of the assassination plot.
Q: Online or in person game? (May not have an impact, but curious)
Q: Do the players only know the contact well in their current guise, or do they know both the disguised and non-disguised person well?
S: If yes to knowing both well, perhaps a slip when the Baron's daughter mentions something only the contact would know, or vice versa.

1) They have seen her actual self from a distance briefly, at a public meeting. A point of meeting her as herself is planned, yes.

2) It was particular, in that it was jewelry a young lady would wear.
3) Personal game.
4) They only know them as their disguised persona, currently. f2f with her actual self is planned.

Those are some nice suggestions too.

Scarab Sages

Hugo Rune wrote:
Matthew's comments are spot on. Clues are much harder to spot than GM's realise. I'm on the phone so linking is too hard but Google 'Rule of 3 Alexandrian' for some great advice. You may want to consider pointing out some clues, like Matthew's example of a phrase, you could say OOC to the PCs with decent Knowledge (Local) it's uncommon but you have heard it before.

True so true I had one GM who thought mentioning a puddle a few times in his description of a cave was a sufficient clue for me to realize that the group of trolls charging after my character to eat them wouldn't smell me if I hid in it. I on the other hand never even considered trying to hide in a puddle because you know group of trolls charging after me so keep running. What seems obvious to the one dropping the hints can be missed entirely by your players because they don't have the same knowledge or information.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Fiend Fantastic wrote:
Claxon wrote:
I mean, if you're arguing for fun...I'm super confused.

No arguing intended. Heck i'm seeing enough of it between colleagues at work, as of late.

It's been a tiring day, much as everyone has from time to time. I guess your comment came across a little stronger than intended due to it, and some misinterpretation on my part.

Quote:
I really don't understand how you expect your players to know to ask for a perception check against this NPC. Sure you made some off hand remarks, but how do they know if it's important?
There's not really an expectation, more an assumption they would do the check, but had not. Hence i needed more ideas to get the identity across via other means. The board's a trove of ideas.

Don't get me wrong, I do hold a strong opinion on how you're running the perceptions checks and disguise for your game, but I'm not trying to be argumentative or rude.

I'm more trying to convince you that perhaps the method you've been using, even if it's the you've used for years, may not be the method that players enjoy the most or facilitates the best play.

A win for me in this case, would be if you run a session or two with my proposed idea and see how that works out for you. With a)having the NPC have a disguise DC and b) that the PCs get an automatic check to notice it (and anything else that you might notice rather than actively investigating).

For example, you're not going to notice a key in a desk draw without investigation. But you might notice the invisible chest in the corner or the room (as a reactive check hidden from players, unless you trust them not to metagame). I personally believe if will foster more enjoyable game play for both you and your players.

And depending on the check result for perception, your players could get result ranging from "You know this person is actually female rather than male" to "It's obvious this person this concealing their gender, it seems like it they could be important" to "You believe based on description you've heard that this person is the daughter of a local noble house in disguise".


Matthew Downie wrote:

It sounds like you don't really need to give hints that it's a lady. ("Well, that narrows it down to half of all sentient humanoids.") You need to give hints that it's this specific person.

I don't know to what extent they know this baron's daughter, but possible clues would be:

Both the daughter and the stranger use the same phrases.

The daughter mentions something that only the stranger should know.

The stranger gets an injury; later, the daughter has the same injury. Or vice versa.

The stranger pays them for help with a valuable item that they previously spotted in the baron's home.

The stranger says something about her father that accidentally reveals to them who her father is.

They have to sneak in to the daughter's room for some reason, and while there they find the strangers clothes.

I like this approach, but with the PCs not entering the palace one would need to modify the hints.

- the document with their mission has the same handwriting as a letter from the baron's daughter the heroes found
- she is wearing a signet ring only the baron's family is allowed to have
- if she is more of a fighter, the magic sword she is wearing this time is rather famous
- because you arrive you see her send off an butler/stewart, who is a known servant of the baron's house
- she accidently forgets her handkerchief

You could explain these mistakes with her being nervous due to rumors of a planned assasination.


If you want to go cryptic then you could always sit the party down for a Harrow reading? You can then chuck as many cryptic clues into the pot as you like? Nothing like a blind witch dealing out the harrow cards to upset eth apple cart. you can set the cards dealt, to each player and give hints in those.
Possible cards:-
The Hidden Truth
This is the lawful good card of intelligence. It represents the discovery of the greater truth within.

The Snakebite
This is the chaotic evil card of intelligence. It represents poison, venom, assassination, and discord.

The Twin
This is the neutral card of charisma. The doppelganger represents duality of purpose or identity, or indecision and fence-sitting for the subject or the entire spread

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Fiend Fantastic wrote:
I'm running out of inspiration for small hints. Anyone got more ideas?

More specific hints might have nothing to do with gender, and more to do with their relationship.

Even their disguise clothing is spotlessly clean. Even after seeing them in a previous encounter get mud on their cloak-hem, the next time you see them, it's been cleaned, suggesting that they have servants to take care of such things.

Their clothing includes an item (scarf?) of imported silk, rare in the area, and only owned by the wealthiest of local nobles. Or perhaps they have a handkerchief they place over their nose when passing through a common area of town, where livestock are kept and the smell gets a little strong. Any regular person would be used to this, since it's an area of town just about everyone has to pass through to cross town. Except for the Baron and his family. They have their own gate, and only someone who lives in the Baron's keep (or a visitor from another town, obviously) wouldn't be 'used' to the smell. (Doesn't have to be livestock. Could be a tannery, or an alchemist's quarter, or a fishmarket. Whatever.)

There's a scent you pick up when the contact is around, some sort of perfume. It's utterly unique, and you've only smelled it once before, at the Baron's court...

The contact uses a phrase that you've only ever heard used by the Baron, but when the contact uses it, it's got a sarcastic ring to it (like they've grown up hearing this motto, but few in their family truly seem to live up to it...). It might even be a phrase or word emblazoned on the family crest, like 'Veritas Victoriat' or something.

(Warning, I don't speak Latin, I made that second word up...) :)

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / In need of subtle hints, the party doesn't realize the plot NPC is a lady. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice
Perfect Scholar Monk