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Yeah, it was pretty underwhelming. It's nice for dragon themed clerics and druids though
Keep in mind that a lot of those archetype feats are intended for anyone not a draconic bloodline sorcerer. That said, I believe most (at least those that have been vocal on the matter) find the archetype overall underwhelming.
An idea I’ve thought to use in the case of the feat Scales of the Dragon:
I don’t mind the AC cap as the bonus is a status bonus allowing the use of item bonuses. It also is “donned” at all times and allows draconic bloodlines to use their bloodline power on an ally freely as bonuses of the same type don’t stack. However, those benefits are very situational and minor. Plus the 3 extra resistance is meh. Personally, I’ve considered adding a scaling (some pun intended) resistance to slashing and piercing in lieu of higher AC; maybe a 2,4,6 based on either level or proficiency bonus.
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Scales of the Dragon is useful for wildshaped characters as the +2 Status bonus to AC just adds. Or for people with mage armour.
Claws of the Dragon are Ok secondary weapons that don't actually take up your hand. For flavour it makes sense. Im just not really sure why anyone would bother with them. Use a real weapon, or wild shape. Or get something from an ancestry. Mostly its just not worthwhile spending a precious level 4 class feat on.
Dragon Arcana is really only worthwhile to someone who is not a Draconic Sorcerer.
It is probably more for a kobold from another class becoming draconic sorcerer like, or a monk/wild shaper/caster who wants the +2 AC bonus. Like many of the archetypes a lot of its features are useless to the class it is closest to.
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The feat is awesome for a Sorcerer who has medium or heavy armor, like from Sentinel or Champion dedication, or a Draconic Barbarian (whose AC sucks and won't work their Dexterity past 14). But the fact you need another dedication to utilize its effects isn't very conducive to a lot of builds.
I do find that the archetype works best for those who aren't Draconic Sorcerers. Kobold Sorcerers with different bloodlines (Fire Elemental Bloodline Kobold Sorcerer is my personal favorite) or Draconic Barbarians would benefit from these feats a lot more than an actual Draconic Sorcerer would.
In my opinion though, the access is way too restrictive, because outside of GM FIAT or specific access, Uncommon or rarer options are just automatically off the table to consider, because it's entirely GM purview. Which you can't control or dictate whatsoever. Dragon Style Monks might want it to work with/as their Ki attacks, as one example that's not listed.
Kobold Animal Barbarian's works as a Kobold Monk. It starts to look very good the combination of Scales of the Dragon and Animal Skin.
Not that monks or barbarians are the best at defense. But there are some very strong builds here.
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I think the problem with the archetype is that it just doesn't know who it wants to be for;
- Dragonscaled kobolds have access, but the resistance from their heritage and dedication won't stack.
- Dragon Arcana would be neat on a Strongjaw Kobold cleric of Apsu (favored weapon: jaws), except those don't get access.
- The dedication and draconic sorcerer claws don't stack so it's kinda feat taxy.
Some feats seem to be for one class, others for another. Dragon Scales could be useful for a sorcerer without armor proficiency that doesn't expect to really be racing to top Dex for example. If you've already resigned yourself to being a backliner who's not got the best AC in the party, this is a one-feat fix to at least reduce how bad your AC is.
Meanwhile dragon claws fix that it's kinda weird that dragon barbarians don't have claws.
Dragon Arcana seems to be for non-sorcerer casters who wanna add some dragon mojo?
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I think the problem with the archetype is that it just doesn't know who it wants to be for;
- Dragonscaled kobolds have access, but the resistance from their heritage and dedication won't stack.
- Dragon Arcana would be neat on a Strongjaw Kobold cleric of Apsu (favored weapon: jaws), except those don't get access.
- The dedication and draconic sorcerer claws don't stack so it's kinda feat taxy.Some feats seem to be for one class, others for another. Dragon Scales could be useful for a sorcerer without armor proficiency that doesn't expect to really be racing to top Dex for example. If you've already resigned yourself to being a backliner who's not got the best AC in the party, this is a one-feat fix to at least reduce how bad your AC is.
Meanwhile dragon claws fix that it's kinda weird that dragon barbarians don't have claws.
Dragon Arcana seems to be for non-sorcerer casters who wanna add some dragon mojo?
True on the Kobold Resistances not stacking, but they can be for a different damage type than the Heritage choice, and they are increased against breath weapons of that damage type. Spellscaled Kobolds are also able to take it, and would get full benefits here.
I feel it is oddly bad for Draconic Sorcerers. I am not sure that is much of a problem. Also by RAW I think you can take it on any non Draconic Sorcerer which would actually be really good.
By RAW all you have to do is be a Kobold and GMs are free to wave that restriction too.
There are a lot of classes that can benefit a lot from it.
Champions/Monks
-Dragon Breath - Since logically it should be an innate spell and both these classes spell DC scale. They can also use their tankiness to be in a good position and get focus points.
-Shape of the Dragon - Haven't ran the numbers but feel any martial should be able to use it good.
Charisma Casters
-Pretty much benefit from everything.
It definitely feels like an Archetype you want to pick and choose the things that really fit for your character. For example I am playing a Monk and am mainly just getting it for Dragon Breath and all the 12+ feats probably.
I probably wouldn't consider it a super strong archetype but I find it very thematic and cool. I do kind of wish it was less limited though and players could freely choose it. I didn't really want to be a Kobold but that is the only way for me to be a Monk Dragon Disciple without asking the GM for exceptions.
I feel it is oddly bad for Draconic Sorcerers. I am not sure that is much of a problem. Also by RAW I think you can take it on any non Draconic Sorcerer which would actually be really good.
By RAW all you have to do is be a Kobold and GMs are free to wave that restriction too.
There are a lot of classes that can benefit a lot from it.
Champions/Monks
-Dragon Breath - Since logically it should be an innate spell and both these classes spell DC scale. They can also use their tankiness to be in a good position and get focus points.
-Shape of the Dragon - Haven't ran the numbers but feel any martial should be able to use it good.
Charisma Casters
-Pretty much benefit from everything.
It definitely feels like an Archetype you want to pick and choose the things that really fit for your character. For example I am playing a Monk and am mainly just getting it for Dragon Breath and all the 12+ feats probably.
I probably wouldn't consider it a super strong archetype but I find it very thematic and cool. I do kind of wish it was less limited though and players could freely choose it. I didn't really want to be a Kobold but that is the only way for me to be a Monk Dragon Disciple without asking the GM for exceptions.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure if Dragon Breath scales as well as you might hope. It's a Sorcerer spell from an Arcane bloodline, which means it's an Arcane spell. Since the Monk & Champion only increase their Divine spellcasting proficiency (or Occult for some Monks), their proficiency for the spell's DC is going to be stuck at trained rather than increasing to Expert or Master.
It is an arcane spell but it doesnt exactly say innate spells. Shape of the dragon states it is an innate spell.
If it is an innate spell then it scales with your highest spellcasting proficiency
If it isnt an innate spell then it would only really be usable by Wizard/Witch or Sorcerer which would be really sad/bad.
I looked a little more and there seems to be no consensus, so I am not sure. It seemed logically to me that it was an innate spell since Shape of the Dragon was... I guess I will post this in the rules thread.
The feat is awesome for a Sorcerer who has medium or heavy armor, like from Sentinel or Champion dedication, or a Draconic Barbarian (whose AC sucks and won't work their Dexterity past 14). But the fact you need another dedication to utilize its effects isn't very conducive to a lot of builds.
It only works when unarmored, so it doesn't stack with wearing other armor.
My understanding is that the devs has already indicated that it will be getting an errata to be an item bonus to prevent some issues (drakeheart mutagen stacking) and if so it really needs to be equal to light armor at least.
I don't think it needs to be errated for balance reasons. It is normally baked in 1 lower AC to start with. It will stack up with Mage Armor or Bracers, but the DEX limits cap it a fair bit. So when you look at it in practice it mostly is only netting 1 point of AC. Which is still in line with bonus you can get from Heavy Armour. For the effort you are going to that is fine.
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What I liked most about the 1e Dragon Disciple was that it allowed full casters to build themselves into something beefier and more capable of fighting in the front lines. They had to sacrifice some of their spellcasting power (unless they took Prestigious Spellcasting multiple times), but in return they became a genuine melee threat. I feel like they should do something to lean into that kind of fantasy.
For example, Claws of the Dragon; why not give Sorcerers a means of getting higher proficiency with the claws specifically? Let them get master proficiency at 13th- or even 15th-level. Hell, make a level 14 DD feat that increases their proficiency, or lets them use their spellcasting proficiency (while still using Dex stat and appropriate item bonuses) when using their dragon claws. Frankly I wouldn't be opposed to giving up the 1d6 slashing damage and/or permanent claws for something like that.
Also, what about a "Resiliency" feat? "Class granting no more Hit Points per level than (10 or 8) + your Constitution modifier" so Barbarians can't abuse the Hell out of it, then "You gain 3 additional hit points for each Dragon Disciple feat. If you're a Draconic Sorcerer, you also gain these additional hit points if you take the Advanced Bloodline and Greater Bloodline Sorcerer feats." Suddenly the Sorcerer isn't as squishy, and can actually try fighting in melee without getting torn to shreds by a strong breeze.
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What I liked most about the 1e Dragon Disciple was that it allowed full casters to build themselves into something beefier and more capable of fighting in the front lines. They had to sacrifice some of their spellcasting power (unless they took Prestigious Spellcasting multiple times), but in return they became a genuine melee threat. I feel like they should do something to lean into that kind of fantasy.
For example, Claws of the Dragon; why not give Sorcerers a means of getting higher proficiency with the claws specifically? Let them get master proficiency at 13th- or even 15th-level. Hell, make a level 14 DD feat that increases their proficiency, or lets them use their spellcasting proficiency (while still using Dex stat and appropriate item bonuses) when using their dragon claws. Frankly I wouldn't be opposed to giving up the 1d6 slashing damage and/or permanent claws for something like that.
Also, what about a "Resiliency" feat? "Class granting no more Hit Points per level than (10 or 8) + your Constitution modifier" so Barbarians can't abuse the Hell out of it, then "You gain 3 additional hit points for each Dragon Disciple feat. If you're a Draconic Sorcerer, you also gain these additional hit points if you take the Advanced Bloodline and Greater Bloodline Sorcerer feats." Suddenly the Sorcerer isn't as squishy, and can actually try fighting in melee without getting torn to shreds by a strong breeze.
I do not get how these abilities follow the "sacrifice some of their casting power" you mention for the PF1 DD.
Until we get class archetypes that mess with it, PF2 casters never lose even part of their base casting power.
Reduced casting power is the province of the casting dedications.
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Maybe the idea behind Scales of the Dragon was that a typical sorcerer/wizard has to work hard at AC because they don't have armor proficiencies. So say a typical L4 sorcerer could have 3 AC from Dex at best, so Dex 2 + 2 from Scales would be an improvement.
Basically, the feat assumes that you've resigned yourself to being a clothy caster who's gonna be behind on AC, and the feat makes it that you're only 1 behind on AC instead of much more. Note that for such casters it kinda works out; they keep using their Unarored proficiency so you dodge the weird moment at level 13 when you might ditch any armor proficiency you picked up because your unarmed proficiency gets better.
For such casters it's also a way to avoid having to make Dex a near-key stat.
Though until it gets (likely) errata to prevent drake mutagen stacking, it's interesting for Mountain Stance monks..
I think that Dragon Disciple works a lot better as a second archetype, after gaining access through multiclassing
Well after posting in the rules it was stated that Dragon Breath is not an innate spell so Dragon Breath is very hard to make scale well for most characters.
There are a few characters like Wizard/Witch/Sorcerer(Arcane) that can still use it quite effectively though.
It seems like it is a very "niche" archetype now and you just pick the few things that make your character better. The high level stuff can be quite fun in general though.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure if Dragon Breath scales as well as you might hope. It's a Sorcerer spell from an Arcane bloodline, which means it's an Arcane spell. Since the Monk & Champion only increase their Divine spellcasting proficiency (or Occult for some Monks), their proficiency for the spell's DC is going to be stuck at trained rather than increasing to Expert or Master.
Yes the DC for Focus spells from other traditions in not well described in the rules. It is actually not clear. I guess you end up having to fall back to Charisma and Trained like innate spells.
Its not good, especially if you are a caster of another tradition and had a good DC there anyway.
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Draconic Disciple is one of the most flavorful, coolest archetypes there is. But it doesn't work that well as an archetype much of the time, particularly for Draconic Sorcerers, one of the few that get access.
Here are some changes I suggest to improve it.
Dedication - Half your level in resistances to your energy type, and
You also gain a +1 circumstance bonus to saving throws against sleep effects and effects that would make you paralyzed.Thoughts - Kind of weak, and is duplicative with your dragon claws, as the resistance doesn't stack. I suggest either making the spell saves better (maybe mental?) Or moving this line of text from the Claws of the Dragon ability. "If you are a draconic sorcerer, when you use the dragon claws ability increase the resistance to 10 at 1st level, 15 at 5th level, and 20 at 9th level."
Claws of the Dragon
Gives you claws. Good for what it is I suppose, but who is meleeing with dragon claws? (Seriously, dragon claws ability on sorcerer is awful, give them something useful to 98% of sorcerers)Scales of the Dragon.
Gives you natural armor, 2ac, +2 dex max. 4 total armor. Less than light armor. Less than max dex. For a 4th level class feat, just make it +3 armor or +3 dex, equal to light armor/medium armor? I mean sentinel gets you better than this at lvl 2.
I think they are already changing it to work like normal armor, so make it decent.Dragon Arcana
Completely useless for a sorcerer, as these are your bloodline spells. How about "If you are a draconic sorcerer, these spells become signature spells." Or something.Breath/Wings of the Dragon - Useless, sorcerer gets these sooner.
Dragonic Scent - Not sold on how useful this is, but haven't messed with imprecise senses, could be wrong.
Shape of the Dragon -
Lets you cast lvl 7 dragon form once a day, scales to 8th at lvl 16, 9th at lvl 18. This would be cool except there that a lvl 7 or lvl 9 Shape of the Dragon spell doesn't exist. So basically this is weak at lvl 14 when you get...
This seems like a homebrew thread to me.
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Unfortunately, I'm not sure if Dragon Breath scales as well as you might hope. It's a Sorcerer spell from an Arcane bloodline, which means it's an Arcane spell. Since the Monk & Champion only increase their Divine spellcasting proficiency (or Occult for some Monks), their proficiency for the spell's DC is going to be stuck at trained rather than increasing to Expert or Master.Yes the DC for Focus spells from other traditions in not well described in the rules. It is actually not clear. I guess you end up having to fall back to Charisma and Trained like innate spells.
Its not good, especially if you are a caster of another tradition and had a good DC there anyway.
For innate spells, you fall back to Charisma, but if you're expert or higher in a spell casting tradition you use that instead for proficiency. This opens up a lot more utility since a Bard, Oracle, Sorcerer or Cleric who has a higher charisma for a good font will be much more likely to result in a pretty good spell DC for that ability even if arcane mismatches with their core spellcasting feature. It's not perfect, but it's less bad on a caster than at first blush the way you're presenting it.
You're always trained in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for your innate spells, even if you aren't otherwise trained in spell attack rolls or spell DCs. If your proficiency in spell attack rolls or spell DCs is expert or better, apply that proficiency to your innate spells, too.You use your Charisma modifier as your spellcasting ability modifier for innate spells unless otherwise specified.
Dragon Breath is not an innate spell.
Dragon Breath is not an innate spell.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure if Dragon Breath scales as well as you might hope. It's a Sorcerer spell from an Arcane bloodline, which means it's an Arcane spell. Since the Monk & Champion only increase their Divine spellcasting proficiency (or Occult for some Monks), their proficiency for the spell's DC is going to be stuck at trained rather than increasing to Expert or Master.Yes the DC for Focus spells from other traditions in not well described in the rules. It is actually not clear. I guess you end up having to fall back to Charisma and Trained like innate spells.
Its not good, especially if you are a caster of another tradition and had a good DC there anyway.
For innate spells, you fall back to Charisma, but if you're expert or higher in a spell casting tradition you use that instead for proficiency. This opens up a lot more utility since a Bard, Oracle, Sorcerer or Cleric who has a higher charisma for a good font will be much more likely to result in a pretty good spell DC for that ability even if arcane mismatches with their core spellcasting feature. It's not perfect, but it's less bad on a caster than at first blush the way you're presenting it.
You're always trained in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for your innate spells, even if you aren't otherwise trained in spell attack rolls or spell DCs. If your proficiency in spell attack rolls or spell DCs is expert or better, apply that proficiency to your innate spells, too.You use your Charisma modifier as your spellcasting ability modifier for innate spells unless otherwise specified.
Its a focus spell of potentially another tradition.
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The dedication is indeed missing the information it is supposed to provide when giving you a focus spell.
"If you get focus spells from a class or other source that doesn’t grant spellcasting ability (for example, if you’re a monk with the Ki Strike feat), the ability that gives you focus spells also provides your proficiency rank for spell attack rolls and spell DCs, as well as the magical tradition of your focus spells. "
Likely Trained and Arcane tradition since that is the tradition of the Draconic Sorcerer. Also the very similar Kobold Breath ancestry feat is Arcane.
I would love to be able to fall back on the aforementioned rule for innate spells. But I believe there is nothing in the RAW that supports it.
Thread necro!
Shape of the Dragon says that "you can cast 7th-level dragon form," but Dragon Form is a level 6 spell. Does that extra level do anything, or is that just a typo?
Thread necro!
Shape of the Dragon says that "you can cast 7th-level dragon form," but Dragon Form is a level 6 spell. Does that extra level do anything, or is that just a typo?
It is likely a typo. Technically you can cast the spell at 7th and 9th level and there are some minor counteract benefits in terms of the spell being heightened. That is, pretty much nothing. The Dragon Form only has stats for 6th and 8th level only. Every one who uses it wishes it had stats for more levels.