Hi everyone,
After much hesitation and back and forth, I have decided to take a plunge into PF 2e. And I would like to start off by re-enacting an old concept of mine.
A no-nonsense ex-army sergeant who has been through a lot. One of the things he has learned in recent years is a strong arm and a nice blade will usually not be enough to win you a scuffle on its own - you need to use your brain. And if you manage to have a handful of people you can trust with you, then you have got a real chance to succeed.
He has been in prison, and served in the military - at the end of it all he came out acting rugged and callous at first sight. Those who care to look a bit deeper however, are many times surprised at the lengths he will go to stand by the ones he believes in.
I would like to roleplay his Inspire Courage as something along the lines of 'barking orders' or shouting advice amidst a fight. Insults at the adversaries also works :D
Crunch wise... In PF1 he was an half-orc, STR based Fighter 2(or Ranger2)/BardX with a reach weapon. Above all he would be a versatile character, perhaps not fully decked to be a frontliner, but compensating with magic, tactics, and a strong blade arm.
In PF2e I have absolutely no idea :P
I am thinking definitely a martial bent character, but with as many options as possible, a tactical mind, etc. My first impulse would be either a Fighter with the Bard Archetype? Or would it make more sense the other way around?
Any advice would be welcome - as you can see I having some doubts where to begin.
Thanks!
In PF2 the mixed classes need to choose. You can either be good with weapon and have a few utility spells, or you can be good with spell and so so with weapons. You need to choose your primary class, then multiclass into the second to gain a few abilities via feats. The middle ground doesnt really exist at all.
Both work depending on what you want to do. Fighter is a good base as it gets better attack numbers/hitpoints/saves and just extra feats. But the Bard is a full caster so it has the best top end.
Or you can look at the Marshall Archetype and use that instead. It sort of fufills the leader role.
For the insult at adversaries angle, training Intimidation up and using Demoralize is probably the best bet. As an upside you don't need to dip in Bard to access that
The build is MAD, multiple attribute dependent.
A bard needs Charisma for skills and offensive magic.
A fighter need Strength.
But there are 3 defensive ability scores - Dex/Con/Wis
You only get to improve 4 as you level.
So your effective options are:
Use Dex based weapons and ignore Str, or
Get into Heavy Armour and ignore Dex, or
Accept a low Cha for Skills and spell DC and use utility Bard Magic only - of which there is plently.
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Yeah, the "compensating with magic" part doesn't apply much in PF2.
As Gortle mentioned, you'll be great (if you don't intentionally undermine yourself) at whatever your main class's shtick, which leaves a lot of space to use feats for breadth (though those side roles will remain a few steps behind a PC with a class made for that role).
When you face the big boss, do you want to use spells or weapons to attack? That answer tells you whether to base w/ a martial class or caster. Against a boss, your other options will not measure up (though might be fun against minions).
One issue is the Bard's main "leadership" trick of song buffs (Compositions) requires an action every round. Fighters have great action economy and can fully utilize their actions already.
Multiclass Dedications (MCDs) take a long time and lots of feat investment before their spellcasting pays off (and then not so great offensively due to lower proficiency and casting stat, yet extraordinary for utility/healing which usually don't rely on those.)
This gets to the "as many options as possible" part of the build.
PF2 balances around party synergy rather than individual builds (like 3.X/PF1, et al) Being strong, intelligent, charismatic, and capable across many roles means you'll end up watered down to mediocrity so that your PC will end up being few if any of those things.
Thankfully PF2 is generous with skills, especially if you take an MCD, so you don't need the Int to have skills on your Fighter. You would need a 14 Cha for the Bard MCD, yet I wouldn't try to build up spellcasting because Fighter feats are tremendous. Nor would I try to be the main face, since you will need the stats elsewhere, though 14 is good enough to play around socially and Intimidate from time to time.
Funnily enough, since PF2 does have a more mobile, tactical combat mode, you could bark useful orders that would have significant impact, only being a Fighter. :)
Sorry my advice doesn't focus to a point. :P
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You're looking for the Marshal Archetype:Hi everyone,
After much hesitation and back and forth, I have decided to take a plunge into PF 2e. And I would like to start off by re-enacting an old concept of mine.
A no-nonsense ex-army sergeant who has been through a lot. One of the things he has learned in recent years is a strong arm and a nice blade will usually not be enough to win you a scuffle on its own - you need to use your brain. And if you manage to have a handful of people you can trust with you, then you have got a real chance to succeed.
He has been in prison, and served in the military - at the end of it all he came out acting rugged and callous at first sight. Those who care to look a bit deeper however, are many times surprised at the lengths he will go to stand by the ones he believes in.
I would like to roleplay his Inspire Courage as something along the lines of 'barking orders' or shouting advice amidst a fight. Insults at the adversaries also works :D
Marshals are leaders, first and foremost. Marshals can come from any class or background, though they all share a willingness to sacrifice their own glory for the greater good of the team. Some marshals lead from the front, sword and shield raised, while others may call instructions and encouragements from the rear while providing allied spellcasters with skilled support. Regardless of their preferred method of combat, marshals' ability to bring the best out in every ally is a valuable addition to any group.
I recommend a Fighter or Champion (offense vs. defense, respectively) with the Marshal Archetype. Melee, plate armor
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A Sergeant isn't the first person through the door so I think Bard makes more sense, Warrior muse would be flavourful too.
And the marshal dedication fits right into this. Be in the middle of the fight inspire courage and other forms of battlefield buffs with minor martial or spell support.
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I second the Marshal archetype: it gives you the flavorful abilities, and you can choose to what degree you want to commit to them.
As the base class, it depends on what you want to do more: striking down enemies yourself, or casting spells and buffing your allies.
First of all, thank you for the feedback!
I will share a few more notes on how I see the character in social situations and combat:
- Out of combat, the idea is to play a sort of 'tough love' kind of character. He is hardened and calloused for having lost friends over the years, but he values teamplay and friendship above everything else. He is definitely not the face of the group, neither wants to be, but he has lived around people from many walks of life, so he has learned a few things here and there about how to 'address' people in a way they can relate (PF1e Bard versatile performance Oratory). Most of the times, he will not even chip in - not really interested in convincing others of anything - but when he does, there are decent chances people will listen to what he has to say. His knowledges (PF1e Bardic Knowledge and Loremaster) are the fruit of experience - he may not be extremely focused on any of them, but he can chip in many discussions;
- In combat/more tactical situations, he is usually not the first through the door. He will be the one scolding the fact they did not scout the area before, or that they are going into the mission/place/quest/etc without enough information. With a nice UMD (PF1e), he can carry a few helpful wands around to help overcome some specific situations if the need arise, as well as use some utility Bard spells (some 'stuff, abilities, whatever you want to call it' he once discovered he had, with the help of an old wizard friend). But he COULD be the first one through the door if needed (Shield, Mirror Image, good saves, etc) - in a bad spot, he will force a breach if needed. During the scuffle, he is shouting encouraging and harsh words left and right (Inspire Courage), providing a buffer/protection for his ranged/arcane/divine companions (Reach weapon + Power Attack + maybe Combat Reflexes), otherwise stepping ahead to side with the frontliner (again 2h reach weapon, power attack, etc), casting support spells if needed (I am a particular fan of Saving Finale), heck with a decent Inspire Courage he can even pick up a bow and be half-decent with it.
So not really aiming to be excellent at everything, just above average/good at a few. But the spells do play a role - shoring up some defenses, buffing, etc. They are never/rarely used on adversaries, but instead on himself/his companions most of the time (so in PF1e Cha would be around 13-14 at level 1).
THIS here is a chassis of the character in PF1e - I think I was planning on going Dragon Disciple with eventually (that is why he has Skill Focus Survival) :P
Would a Bard with the Marshal archetype be able to swing a weapon decently? Is that a thing? :D
it's a thing you could do as a 3rd action sometimes and not look like a doofus. If you only attack once you're only 1-3 behind all the martial classes and 3-5 behind the fighter to hit.
And for some levels you'd be equally likely to hit.
As a third action seems to far off removed Schreckstoff.
I think my priorities would be along the lines of :
1 - Get Inspire Courage going;
2 - Fight! Weapon swings come here in second place
3 - Buffs if/as needed
So I guess less Bard/Marshal, and more Fighter/Bard?
(sorry guys, some of these questions must seem really dumb. I am admittedly a complete noob to PF2e)
Hey Malk_Content, thanks a lot for clarifying that - it makes a HUGE difference.
So I will not be crying my eyes out if I build a 'melee' bard in PF2e? :D
What do you guys think would be the main differences I feel between a Bard/Marhsal and a Bard/Fighter?
Ok, I have some sort of base crunch:
Half-orc bard 1 Core Rulebook 386, 386
CG, Medium, Human, Humanoid, Orc
Perception +6; darkvision, low-light vision
Languages Common, Orcish
Skills Acrobatics +4, Athletics +6, Diplomacy +5, Legal Lore +3, Medicine +4, Occultism +3, Performance +5, Survival +4
Str 16 (+3), Dex 12 (+1), Con 14 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 14 (+2)
Other Items studded leather, guisarme, sling, sling bullets (20), purse (15 gp)
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AC 16; Fort +5; Ref +4; Will +6
HP 18 Focus Points 2 Hero Points 1
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Speed 25 feet
Melee [1] guisarme +3 (trip, reach 10 feet), Damage 1d10+3 S
Ranged [1] sling +4 (propulsive, range increment 50 feet, reload 1), Damage 1d6+1 B
Occult Bard Spells DC 15; 1st (2 slots) magic weapon, protection, soothe Cantrips (1st) detect magic, forbidding ward, guidance, message, shield
Focus Spells 2 Focus Points, DC 15; 1st Counter Performance, Inspire Courage (At Will), Lingering Composition
Feats Experienced Tracker, Lingering Composition, Orc Sight
Other Abilities component substitution, composition spells, maestro, muses, occult spellcasting, spell repertoire
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How do these initial choices look? Obviously had some doubts around Feat, spell and equipment selection. And obviously the Muse....
@Malk_Content: I would like to go with a more reactive fighting style, something along the lines of reach combat, perhaps with some combat Reflexes and Power Attack sprinkled in. Is that something not part of the Marshal chassis?
Redundancy worries me a bit, though...
EDIT:On a side note, I have always envisioned the character as STR based, but what if he went Dex? Bard/Swashbuckler? Would it have more sinergy?
One can go Dex based, and still look and be bad#%& - I have proof ;)
Do not MCD into Fighter. Its main benefit is getting Trained in good weapons (all martial), but not being Expert w/o another feat much later.
So you'd become as good as a 1st level Fighter at level 12!
A Bard already gets good weapons (some martial) and advances to Expert naturally at level 11. So I don't think Warrior Muse is even that great unless it's a prereq for another feat you'd need (not merely want).
As a full caster, you could invest a lot of effort into becoming a melee participant, but most of your budget is pre-spent on full casting so you have a hard climb and can never compete with a competent martial.
-You'd need Strength for damage (because you don't Rage, have Fighter's higher proficiency, a Rogue's Sneak, etc. and your Weapon Specialization comes late game while they've moved on to Greater WS.)
-Dex for defense, not just AC, but to keep the Reflex saves up because yours won't progress past Expert and you lack the h.p.
-Con for defense because Fort saves never progress past Expert and you lack h.p.
-Wis for Perception & Will cannot be ignored, though thankfully Bard's do very well here.
-Max Charisma for offense & counteracting w/ spells (and being the leader). If not at max, you cut into the power of that large pool of spells that makes up the class's power budget. :O
So you could be a great Bard who's a mediocre combatant (who CANNOT approach boss's with any sense of safety unless perhaps next to a Champion) or a mediocre Bard (low Cha) who's STILL a mediocre combatant (but who might be able to approach a boss with more confidence...which isn't necessarily a safe attitude to have).
Archery is one way to skirt the danger, but I've seen an excellent Wizard/archer (not Archer the Dedication) who during rougher battles had to drop all pretense of archery and cast/move or cast/Shield every round just to survive. So many feats invested for a minor benefit when Telekinetic Projectile can match the damage (and often have a better attack).
But what's better for attacking than Telekinetic Projectile?
Being a martial class.
If excelling in (or surviving) melee matters, then you kind of have to be a martial first.
As mentioned, Demoralize (via Intimidate) on one's enemies is comparable to inspiring one's allies. It'd be many level before you can Inspire via Bard MCD, but you'd be as good as a standard Bard at doing so. Ignore the spell progression though unless playing to the highest levels (and then scout out which Fighter feats you'd want to see if you have space). The Marshal works better (even if it has less effect) because you can set up your emanation w/ one action and be done, and it has some decent support feats. (Not Steel Yourself, that's horrible and I don't know why somebody mentioned it. Hardly worth the action on a max Charisma PC, much less the feat.)
Also consider Champion. It doesn't get the offensive boosts of other martials (higher accuracy of Fighters/Flurry Ranger or higher damage of the others), but it has lots of aura options. Plus its reactions very much have the "looking out for your troops" vibe, as does Lay on Hands.
And they make fine Marshals.
Of course, much of the worth of any of these leader PCs depends on fighting alongside other martials! If in a caster-heavy party, many of these bonuses have minimal value. In such a party, Champion's best because it's the best tank/wall/protector.
And most of these bonuses do not stack! So if there's an actual Bard or other support/buffer in the party, one of you has wasted abilities (unless specifically working with each other to not overlap on which stats you buff).
Though a bit meta, also consider what difficulty the campaign is.
If playing published modules/APs/grimdark home game, they're quite hard so all my advice applies.
If playing PFS or a lighter home game, then you need not fear boss battles so much and "mediocre" becomes sufficient.
I actually made a decent Bard with minimal Charisma for an one-shot with the focusing mainly into melee support role.
What I did:
Warrior Muse: For Weapon Proficiency and access to the metamagic that give orders to allies, but the last is mainly at high lvls.
Focused mainly on Athletics, for combat maneuvers, they are able to reach legendary making you pretty good at it.
Marshal for the Inspiring Stance to combine with Dirge of Doom.
Bard feats being mainly Accompany and Dirge of Doom.
My turns usually would be like:
Stride - Dirge of Doom - Trip/Grab/Strike
Inspiring Stance - Dirge of Doom - Stride/Strike/Trip/Grab
Dirge of Doom - Strike - Trip/Grab
With spell slots being mainly used for Accompany to increase the slots of the other caster, or for buffs or utility.
Topple Foe, Steel Yourseld and To Battle are interesting stuff that would been interesting to have but I didn't had the feat slots or lvl because the one shot was lvl 9.
Maestro could have been used but I wanted to use a Ramseur so I needed the Warrior muse proficiency.
I only casted a spell like, 3 times on 5 encounters, and all the castings were Soothe the rest was mainly used by the Witch in the party with Accompany reaction.
There is definitely a lot to mull over, that is for sure :D
So far, from the advice I have read, it would seem there is more... Hmmm.... Role specialization than in 1ed, and less versatility? Where do the gishes come in now? Or is there no such thing?
So I need to take this slow, and one step at a time - I will aim at keeping it simple for my first character, and trying to get a grip on how exactly things work in PF2e. All the while, I guess I will focus on the character concept to provide me some guidelines on how to build him.
In that spirit, I have made some slight modifications to the crunch - at level 1 it would look like this (in any case, since this is if inexperienced 2e players and GM, we are ok to change stuff as the game progresses):
Reknar
Half-orc bard 1 Core Rulebook 386, 386
CG, Medium, Human, Humanoid, Orc
Perception +6; darkvision, low-light vision
Languages Common, Orcish
Skills Acrobatics +5, Arcana +3, Athletics +6, Intimidation +4, Medicine +4, Occultism +3, Performance +4, Warfare Lore +3
Str 16 (+3), Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 12 (+1)
Other Items studded leather, longspear, morningstar, sling, sling bullets (20), purse (13 gp; 5 sp)
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AC 17; Fort +5; Ref +5; Will +6
HP 18 Focus Points 2 Hero Points 1
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Speed 25 feet
Melee [1] longspear +6 (reach 10 feet), Damage 1d8+3 P
Melee [1] morningstar +6 (versatile P), Damage 1d6+3 B
Ranged [1] sling +5 (propulsive, range increment 50 feet, reload 1), Damage 1d6+1 B
Occult Bard Spells DC 14, attack +4; 1st (2 slots) magic weapon, protection, soothe Cantrips (1st) detect magic, forbidding ward, guidance, shield, telekinetic projectile
Focus Spells 2 Focus Points, DC 14; 1st Counter Performance, Inspire Courage (At Will), Lingering Composition
Feats Intimidating Glare, Lingering Composition, Orc Sight
Other Abilities component substitution, composition spells, maestro, muses, occult spellcasting, spell repertoire
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My questions now, based on your feedback:
- Is Charisma 12 ok? (And I did take Telekinetic Projectile :D)
- Performance is now a catch-all skill?
- At level 1, does this guy look horrible to test out on an adventure?
- Would you take a different Ancestry Feat? (think it is the one under my control?)
- I cannot take Power Attack, right? It is now a Fighter only feat?
- Assuming in the future I want to go the way of Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and the whole Reach tactics logic - what is the easier way for me to get my hands on those feats? Fighter?
Overall, knowing what I am aiming at, and at the fact this is a first level character which can eventually be modified in the future, any further advice is welcome :D
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So far, from the advice I have read, it would seem there is more... Hmmm.... Role specialization than in 1ed, and less versatility? Where do the gishes come in now? Or is there no such thing?
There are fewer ways to bolster a character's fundamental math (attack accuracy, spell DC and the like). Martial characters that take a caster multiclass as a secondary feature are a thing, but they are primarily martial with casting as a more minor aspect. Casters that so use martial strikes are a thing, but they are casters primarily, and they cannot make weapon strikes at a martial's level.
An actually 50/50 gish does not exist right now, but characters where the secondary class is worthwhile do.
As for your case, charisma of 12 may be pretty rough for the things you've got that will use charisma against defenses (intimidate, tk projectile, etc) or scaling DCs (Lingering Performance).
Albion,
That PC will be effective at early levels, but martials will continue to accumulate prowess (proficiency + weapon specialization + whatever their class's trick is) while your PC will go "Woo, 18 Str!" at 5th and remain stagnant for a long time, never coming close to a martial again because you're instead gaining spells.
Your primary Strike will be about as good as their second swing (partly because of accuracy/partly because of lower damage).
And defensively you'll struggle because even though you're doing the best you can w/ a Bard, they're getting more on top (except Rogue, but they can take feats that debuff or help them skirmish safely).
PF2's tightened math means your buffing spells cannot bridge the gap, partly because buffs have such short durations. Recovery breaks ("lulls") between combat are somewhat expected, taking 10+ minutes to do Medicine and recover Focus Points. That means you'd burn through buffs quickly as they keep expiring. (Few buffs last more than 10 minutes, and many are 1 minute.)
As you suspected above, gishes struggle in PF2, if not outright fail if they try to be equal in both fields. The upcoming Magus class might solve that, yet from the playtest it looks like they're giving up lots of spell capacity to do so.
So the question is what do you want to do with spells? I mean, they are consuming your budget as a Bard, yet you have a low Charisma.
-Avoid spells that require saves, spell attacks, or counteracting unless they're simply too good. An 18 Charisma caster is about 50% more effective (given the normal range of enemies and a crit success x2 bonus) which means the spell has to be that much better to be worthwhile.
-That still leaves plenty of spells.
Soothe: Kind of a must-have as a Signature Spell.
Magic Missile: Doesn't miss, bypasses save, therefore great for bosses (and poor vs. minions) and you're as good as any other Bard. This means you could play martial/support/healer until the big boss arrives then drill them with every slot of Magic Missile you've got (and yes, this should be a Signature Spell too for a low-Cha Bard). Except if your imagery is fighting the climactic battle in melee while inspiring your allies. (Not gonna happen w/ Bard in a hard campaign.)
Those two alone impact combat a lot, leaving you plenty of space for non-combat or utility buffs (since there aren't many numbers buffs).
True Strike is a bit of a trap, since your Strike isn't that great of a foundation. Magic Weapon's nice at lower levels...yet nicer on your ally's bigger weapon backed by more accuracy.
Note: I'm not saying you can't make this build work (I have a 10 Cha Dwarf Bard concept I wouldn't mind playing someday), but that you might not be getting that martial or gish imagery you're thinking of. And you will be the most fragile of frontliners, so it's not just meek offense interfering.
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To expand on the comments about power attack:
In 1E you pick up a 2 handed weapon, take power attack early and never sto using it because it's a cornerstone of melee damage scaling.
In 2E, Power Attack is a situational tool. It uses 2 actions for a single strike, and as you get Striking runes adding extra dice to every weapon attack, Power Attack can be less expected damage than 2 normal strikes (depending on the AC of your target). However, PA remains a solid tool for bashing through enemies that resist your damage and for taking advantage if things like True Strike that buff a single attack.
Very different feat.
Thanks a lot for all the input guys - it has been a very good learning experience for a 2e noob like me.
I went with Bard at level 1, since the GM is fine with us doing changes further down the road. So I will review my choices when level 2 comes around :D
Build ended up like:
Half-orc bard 1
CG, Medium, Human, Humanoid, Orc
Perception +6; darkvision, low-light vision
Languages Common, Orcish
Skills Acrobatics +5, Athletics +6, Intimidation +4, Medicine +4, Occultism +3, Performance +4, Society +3, Warfare Lore +3
Str 16 (+3), Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 12 (+1)
Other Items studded leather, longspear, morningstar, sling, sling bullets (20), purse (11 gp; 5 sp)
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AC 17 (19 with shield raised); Fort +5; Ref +5; Will +6
HP 18 Focus Points 2 Hero Points 1
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Speed 25 feet
Melee [1] longspear +6 (reach 10 feet), Damage 1d8+3 P
Melee [1] morningstar +6 (versatile P), Damage 1d6+3 B
Ranged [1] sling +5 (propulsive, range increment 50 feet, reload 1), Damage 1d6+1 B
Occult Bard Spells DC 14, attack +4; 1st (2 slots) magic weapon, protection, soothe Cantrips (1st) detect magic, forbidding ward, guidance, shield, telekinetic projectile
Focus Spells 2 Focus Points, DC 14; 1st Counter Performance, Inspire Courage (At Will), Lingering Composition
Feats Intimidating Glare, Lingering Composition, Orc Sight
Other Abilities component substitution, composition spells, maestro, muses, occult spellcasting, spell repertoire
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I will also be crunching a base classe Fighter/Bard, and see how different it turns out. Quick question though - what is the impact on the spellcasting? Will still reach max level Bard spells? Will still be limited in the armor I can use, if I want to cast Bard spells, right?
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There is no attribute requirement to cast spells in this edition, so you could cast all the way up to 10th level. Only your spell attack rolls, DCs, counteract rolls, etc will suffer, nit your ability to cast at all or number of slots.
Armor does not limit casting in any way, in this edition. You can put a wizard in full plate, if you want.
So even if my base class is Fighter and not Bard, I can still cast all the way up to level 10?
Armor does not limit casting in any way, in this edition. You can put a wizard in full plate, if you want.
:O
So even if my base class is Fighter and not Bard, I can still cast all the way up to level 10?
No, no, I misunderstood the question. I was thinking of how your low CHA affects casting, not of switching to fighter main. The spells you can cast are much more limited in that case. You take archetype feats for your spellcasting. The dedication gives you 2 cantrips, which do scale all the way to 10. The other feats follow the standard archetype casting pattern you can read about at https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=170
Basic Spellcasting Feat: Usually gained at 4th level, these feats grant a 1st-level spell slot. At 6th level, they grant you a 2nd-level spell slot, and if you have a spell repertoire, you can select one spell from your repertoire as a signature spell. At 8th level, they grant you a 3rd-level spell slot. Archetypes refer to these benefits as the "basic spellcasting benefits".
Expert Spellcasting Feat: Usually taken at 12th level, these feats make you an expert in spell attack rolls and DCs of the appropriate magical tradition and grant you a 4th-level spell slot. If you have a spell repertoire, you can select a second spell from your repertoire as a signature spell. At 14th level, they grant you a 5th-level spell slot, and at 16th level, they grant you a 6th-level spell slot. Archetypes refer to these benefits as the "expert spellcasting benefits".
Master Spellcasting Feat: Usually appearing at 18th level, these feats make you a master in spell attack rolls and DCs of the appropriate magical tradition and grant you a 7th-level spell slot. If you have a spell repertoire, you can select a third spell from your repertoire as a signature spell. At 20th level, they grant you an 8th-level spell slot. Archetypes refer to these benefits as the "master spellcasting benefits".
Also important, of you want more spells is the Occult Breadth feat which does this: "Your repertoire expands, and you can cast more occult spells each day. Increase the number of spells in your repertoire and the number of spell slots you gain from bard archetype feats by 1 for each spell level other than your two highest bard spell slots."
Bit late to the topic, but I'd advice to go either Caster (bard) with Cha 18 and Str 16, and for you grizzled veteran take champion dedication for armor and some nice support abilities (defending your fellows) by taking the champion reaction.
Or if you want to be more martial, go for Dex based Swashbuckler and take the bard dedication, very good synergy with bard, also action wise. 18 dex and 16 cha, go for the wit bard, take One for all.
Pf2 means you really need to choose to be either martial or caster primarily.
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Pf2 means you really need to choose to be either martial or caster primarily.
This is so true. In PF2 you are and always will be your Class first and foremost. Multiclass just gives you a smattering of abilities that come from the other Class but they do not change your character's main focus.
If you want to be a caster with some martial ability then caster Class and martial multiclass it is. And vice versa. 50/50 gish does not yet exist in PF2.
Note that by going Fighter you will be proficient with better armors than the Bard (and awesome at weapons).
Ok. I am back - so far it has been an interesting learning process playing PF 2e. It feels like yo can do so much stuff in a round! :D
Following up: since we are all level 1, the game has been moving along smoothly, and my Bard passes as an acceptable combatant so far. But it is noticeable how different he is from the Barbarian, as it should be I guess.
@Hammerjack: Thank you for the added explanation on Bard spells if base class is Fighter. I have an additional question then - what about Inspire Courage? When would I be able to get it? Am I right in thinking only at level 8, with Inspirational Performance? That's harsh...
@Falco271: It does feel like the Champion Dedication would give me more than Fighter indeed. Fighter Archetype basically means extra Feats. Am I reading it right? Though there are surely many golden Fighter Feats I am most likely overlooking, I admit it. My 'thing' with the Champion dedication on this concept specifically is the presence of a deity, and the implied religion. It does not work very well with what I have in mind.
I will definitely try the Swashbuckler/Bard build - it does feel like it may be synergistic as heck. A thought: is it possible to build a STR based Swashbuckler character in PF2e?
The Raven Black: Ok, not only Feats then - also better armor and weapon awesomeness :D
Yes, Inspire Courage is a level 8 feat if you multiclass into bard. On the one hand, it feels harsh when compared to front loaded 1E multiclassing. On the other, Inspire Courage is good enough to be a competitive choice of feat at 8th level. It does create some awkwardness with other bard feats that require Inspire Courage, though.
As for fighter dedication, its definitely one of the worse options for many characters, in terms of what the dedication feat itself gives. That being said, the fighter class has got a pretty solid selection of low level feats that stay useful for the long haul.
Ok, so a Fighter with Bard dedication would mostly be focused on improving himself with magic for the majority of the first few levels, and not so much his/her companions - would that be an accurate depiction?
Ok, so a Fighter with Bard dedication would mostly be focused on improving himself with magic for the majority of the first few levels, and not so much his/her companions - would that be an accurate depiction?
More or less. The occult spell list does have some support options, and many of which it will be up to you who you cast them on. Personally, I don't think being a fighter really adds much to your concept, and I don't think being a bard will give you quite the martial staying power you want.
Ranger or maybe even Investigator feel like better options-- both have a lot of knowledge and party support feats and can provide that scouting and intelligence gather you mentioned. Both are good at skirmishing. The Investigator will be particularly versatile when it comes to skills. The Marshall Archetype could also be added to either.
And if you just want to be able to bust out a scroll every now and then, Trick Magic Item will work for you.
That said, this is all up to you and your vision. Any of these can be viable options-- it is just a matter of figuring out what fits the character you want to play.
Regarding MADness mentioned way earlier, I don't think you really need Dexterity if your character concept/class includes grabbing heavier armor. Yes, it's mentioned often, yes Bulwark on the heaviest armor is not a perfect substitute for Dexterity's uses. But it sure as heck does enough for enough cases to allow prioritizing Strength/Charisma/Wisdom/Constitution, with some Intelligence if desired for flavor and Recall Knowledge checks.
And on the other side, if your character concept includes lighter finesse weapons, you can do fine without Strength if you'll be content with less damage per-hit (especially at the earlier levels) and can handle the lack of Bulk. Having both high Strength and Dexterity offers some advantages for martials, but is also arguably a little narrower than focusing on one at the expense at the other, since they kinda cover each other for pure combat stuff. (Obviously you miss out on on-level Athletics actions and hard Stealth/Thievery stuff.)
Anyway! PF2 is weird because it's needlessly restrictive in some places but also, overall, offers lots of ways to get to your concept and has a high enough power floor most of the time that people with average luck will usually do fine. In theory. There are actual pitfalls, like trying to use unoptimized offensive spells on on-level peeps or wasting actions on fruitless 3rd attacks or fighting aggressively without enough bulk/healing to manage it or fighting bosses without using/having any debuffs — but I don't think using supportive Bard or Marshal stuff is such a pitfall. That'll pretty much always be helpful if you have good enough DC where needed.
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If you can retrain easily, I would start with a Martial Chassis (choose the one that provides abilities you prefer) and take Marshal Dedication at second level and Marshal feats at fourth and sixth levels. Then at eighth level, retrain out of Marshal and retrain the sixth level feat to Bard Dedication, so you qualify for the Inspirational Performance feat.
This has the advantage of starting with a CHA at twelve and increase it to fourteen with the fifth level ability boost.
If your Martial chassis is very action consuming, though, I would rather get the Bard dedication at fourth level, the Lingering Composition feat at sixth level and the Inspirational Performance at eighth. Note though that this will require a starting CHA of fourteen.
Thank you Cap. Morgan, Alfa and Raven Black - your inputs gave me a lot of food for thought :D
Maybe indeed Fighter does not add much, but how are Rangers and Investigators supporting their companions? I can see the Knowledge part plain as day, but not the support (a.k.a. being a noob).
IF I stay with Bard as my main class, I will probably lower his Dex, and get the Fighter dedication for better armor? Seems a bit lackluster, but a solid choice?
I do like the Marshal on a Martial chassis idea, BUT it completely trades away all the spellcasting, and I have this sickness in my mind from 1e which cries out martials have 100x more survivability if they are slightly gish-i-er (Shield, Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin, etc, etc) - is it different in 2e?
That being said... Investigators could be gish-like? Do they still get Extracts and such?
There are a lot of things here that aren't quite right, because 1E and 2E really are extremely different.
1. Regarding Investigator and Ranger support: if you're trying to get support out if those classes you would be looking at feats like the investigator's Shared Stratagem or the ranger's Monster Hunter. They aren't show stoppers, but they are tools that exist, to some extent.
2. Fighter dedication doesn't have anything to do with getting better armor. To me, the big selling point of fighter dedication, if you want to go that route, is that fighter has some excellent low level feats that can really replace the basic Strike, on rounds where you would be striking something.
3. Having some spellcasting tricks can certainly be useful for a martial character. You are not wrong there... but it is absolutely NOTHING like the difference between characters that can cast a bit in 1E, in terms of how much you gain, and martial tools alone hold up quite well.
4. Extracts are not a thing at all. The alchemical items that alchemists create are much less similar to the 1E Spell-In-A-Bottle approach. One of the investigator methodologies does provide a little bit of on-the-spot alchemical item production, though.
Again Hammerjack, thank you for clearing those points for me.
Admittedly I still need to learn a lot about 2e, but 3. and 4. make me sad though. Gish characters are my all time favorites, and the Investigator in particular (as it was) perhaps my favorite class overall :/
EDIT: When I first tried to create a martial character with magical 'options' in PF1e, I created a pure martial with a very decent UMD. Perhaps that is the way to go now too? Fighter with Marshal Dedication (or like HumbleGamer suggested Fighter with Bard Dedication - Inspire Courage at level 8 only...), AND a very decent UMD (Trick Magic Item)?
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You can get some nice cantrips, and even bona fide spells, from Ancestry feats too.
The gish indeed does not exist yet in PF2. You are either a martial with some casting ability or a caster with some martial ability.
The Magus aims at filling the gish niche, but we only have the playtest version at the moment and it is sure to change in the final version.
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Yeah, a major difference in 2e is that martials have really good survivability and don't need many of the magical tools. Magic in this edition is less about power and more about versatility. In addition those spells you mentioned are all short lived and either only last a single round or just a single encounter, usually. They're also toned down in power quite a bit too.
For example, Shield. A fighter raising a physical shield gives a better bonus and you can block with it multiple times a fight vs the spell. The spell isn't useless if you don't want a piece of metal strapped to your arm, but a properly equipped fighter doesn't really need it.
Blur can be very useful in combat, but it only ever lasts 1 minute. And as a Bard, you only have a max of 3 spells slots per level. So you're not using it every fight.
2e hasn't really gotten a true Gish right yet. Maybe Magus will do it. I'm playing a Bard/Champion right now and it's ok. But Bards are full spellcasters, not martials. If you really want to fight, it's better to be a martial that gets a few spells than the other way around.
I think a Fighter with the Marshall archetype is very viable and would be fun to play.
Thank you Cap. Morgan, Alfa and Raven Black - your inputs gave me a lot of food for thought :D
Maybe indeed Fighter does not add much, but how are Rangers and Investigators supporting their companions? I can see the Knowledge part plain as day, but not the support (a.k.a. being a noob).
For a ranger, you'd want a feat progression something like this:
Precision Edge
1 Monster Hunter
2 Monster Warden (Retrain into this at 10th as it stinks at this level)
4 Scout's Warning
6 Hunter's Luck
8 Warden's Boon
10 Master Monster Hunter
12 Double Prey
14 Shared Prey
16 Legendary Monster Hunter
18 whatever
20 Triple Threat
Every one of those feats can provide some sort of bonus to allies. Some are better than others, so you can pick and chose what you actually want. But it provides allies with bonuses to initiative, damage, to hit, and AC. You also get free knowledge checks on enemies (Recall Knowledge is an action for most characters) which you usually roll twice on and can do exclusively with Nature.
It isn't as good or consistent as a bard on the buff game, but it ain't bad and you get to do that while still being a solid front liner. You probably want to swing a two handed weapon around because those work fine without feat investment.
The only downside is the wilderness baggage doesn't seem to fit the character great. But it does help you to scout and whatnot, which is nice.
Again a lot of nice posts - thank you everyone!
Let us take this in a different direction then:
- Base class would be a Martial. Fighter or Ranger (the wilderness baggage suits well the grizzled sergeant I think :D) - I was VERY surprised to see so many actions from the Ranger which can be shared with his companions. But looking at Monster Hunter as an example, it seems... Weak? You need to critically succeed to gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack roll against that prey. And you can use it only once a day for each prey. Very limited, no?
- Multiclass would possibly be Bard (need to have Cha14), or Marshal Dedication.
The main thing I see here is that at level 2, the character is really not buffing/motivating/inspiring/aiding his companions at all. Sure I can roleplay in whatever way I want, but there are no mechanical effects. He will definitely be a competent combatant though.
At level 4, the issue remains - no decent buffs or magical defenses from the Bard, BUT here Marshal pulls ahead (in my opinion) with Inspiring Marshal Stance for example. If coming from a Ranger base, there can be some marginal (they are marginal, right?) bonuses to allies also.
So barring roleplay, tactical positioning, smart combat play and player advice (which one can do on any character), only at level 4 things start shaping up somehow as a sergeant/leader who barks orders and advice on the field to his companions. Am I looking at it correctly?
On a side note, I took a look at Trick Magic Item, and.... It seems 'harder' to use than the 'old' UMD? Since now you need not only the Trick Magic Item, but also an associated skill to activate the magical item?
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Yeah, Marshall gets a buff online faster than Bard archetype (2nd level if you consider the fear bonus), which can be preferable. But that buff is nowhere as powerful or can be as varied as a Bard after some investment.
One word about Monster Hunter. The +1 bonus is gravy. The real value is to be able to do a Recall Knowledge check for free when you Hunt Prey. Yes, it means you need to be invested in knowledge skills. Yes, it seems like a minor thing. But knowing what weakness or immunities or even just the worst save for a creature is pretty big for 2e. The Ranger isn't the best class to have that given their lack of skills, but it still means you get 2 things for 1 action.
The thing to remember with 2e archetypes: You will never be as good as the base class. In 1e, you could take a level in a new class and basically be as good as a level 1 character at that class. In 2e for the most part, you could be level 20, having taken all your class feats in that archetype and likely you still can't do something a level 1 or 2 character of that class can do.
For example, a Bard archetype never gets more than 2 Bard spells for any level, and never gets more than 2 cantrip slots. 2nd level Bards have 5 cantrips slots and 3 1st level spells. Similarly, taking the Fighter archetype you'll never get the Shield Block ability (not through the archetype anyway) and you don't learn how to wear heavy armor.
So in 2e, your core class is really your identity, which is why the gish is so hard. You can get some neat tricks from an archetype to augment yourself and they can be very worthwhile, but if you just use the archetype class as a measuring stick, you're missing some fundamentals.
Again a lot of nice posts - thank you everyone!
Let us take this in a different direction then:
- Base class would be a Martial. Fighter or Ranger (the wilderness baggage suits well the grizzled sergeant I think :D) - I was VERY surprised to see so many actions from the Ranger which can be shared with his companions. But looking at Monster Hunter as an example, it seems... Weak? You need to critically succeed to gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack roll against that prey. And you can use it only once a day for each prey. Very limited, no?
Like I said, some are better than others. You can replace the ones you don't like with archetype stuff. But as Tim points out the real deal is the free action knowledge check. Also, Master Monster Hunter makes that bonus much more viable-- you get it on a normal success, and more importantly can use Nature to identify all creatures. That is huge in an addition where you can only advance so many skills past trained. (Monster Warden, though, is pretty bad until you get Master Monster Hunter. Hence, skip it and retrain into it later.)
Identifying monsters can be really crucial, though it does depend a bit on your GM actually giving you actionable information. There's room for table variance there.
I am liking the Ranger more and more... Would it synergize well with say... Marshal Archetype?
Wait, wait.... Inspire Courage does not scale? :O