If you go Ranger something like this with Marshal might be interesting.
Precision Edge
1 Monster Hunter
2 Marshal Dedication
4 Inspiring Marshal Stance
6 Disrupt Prey
8 Warden's Boon
10 Master Monster Hunter
12 Double Prey
14 Shared Prey
16 Legendary Monster Hunter
18 whatever
20 Triple Threat
Or if you don't take the Monster Hunter tree this is also a possibility
Precision Edge
1 Gravity Weapon
2 Marshal Dedication
4 Inspiring Marshal Stance
6 Soothing Mist
8 Warden's Boon
10 Topple Foe
12 Warden's Focus
14 Double Prey
16 Shared Prey
This one gives a healing focus spell and the Topple Foe reaction from Marshal, that let you trip enemies on the reaction after an ally strikes. It will need a trip weapon or a free hand however.
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I find that gaining a reaction when you have none by default is a big power boost and both above give that.
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Regarding Inspire Courage not scaling, remember that a +1 to hit in 2E is a significantly bigger deal than a +1 to hit in 1E (because of also adding to crit chance and because of the overall reduction in bonuses to stack). The impact of the +1 to damage does diminish.
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The only way to improve it is by taking and using Inspire heroics bard feat
1 free action and 1 focus point cost
You call upon your muse to greatly increase the benefits you provide to your allies with your inspire courage or inspire defense composition. If your next action is to cast inspire courage or inspire defense, attempt a Performance check. The DC is usually a very hard DC of a level equal to that of the highest-level target of your composition, but the GM can assign a different DC based on the circumstances. The effect of your inspire courage or inspire defense composition depends on the result of your check.
Critical Success The status bonus from your inspire courage or inspire defense increases to +3.
Success The status bonus from inspire courage or inspire defense increases to +2.
Failure Your inspire courage or inspire defense provides only its normal bonus of +1, but you don't spend the Focus Point for casting this spell.
But Inspire Herics costs a focus point and only lasts for one round.
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If we're talking about strong ally support with a Charisma flavor, and honorable mention also needs to go to Swashbuckler Dedication, because One For All is a low level feat that becomes a staggeringly effective bonus to a single ally action as your diplomacy skill goes up and you start critting the check all the time.
Thank you for all the input guys, it has been extremely valuable so far.
I will try to keep focused on my main concept/idea, but I have to say. it does not seem possible, or at least the way I envisioned it in first edition:
= Medium Martial capability complemented by Magic, which may make it Good in certain situations;
= Mix up of versatile spells, which allow him... Well... Not raw power, but versatility;
= Be an inspiration to his companions via a recurrent/helpful buff(s)
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I get the feeling PF2e rewards total focus in a role, and that is something I particularly dislike in my characters (I think the only character I ever created with a single class, was a Wizard). I am not looking for a single character that can do all, but for a character which is versatile.
However you guys have given me many viable options, and alternatives - I just need to mull it over, and adapt to playing the concept differently I guess. For now, it seems my original idea is too close to a gish to be viable in 2e.
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The Magus could be what you look for when it will be released.
The Martial yardstick is the Fighter who has peak to-hit. The other Martial classes have their own thing to become as efficient in damage dealing as the Fighter, or a bit less efficient but more durable.
The Magus might be the Martial that uses magic to get this. We shall know when Secrets of Magic comes out this summer.
If your idea is melee with arcane magic, then probably wait for the magus. If you're not completely wedded to that, here are some interesting martial+magic possibilities:
*Champion of Nethys with a destruction domain, aura, divine blade, etc.: Sure it's "divine" magic, but when it's from the god of magic who cares?
*Ranger leaning into Warden spells: Same idea as above, but nature. Forget the companion and focus on you.
*Fighter or Ranger + Eldritch Archer: Here's your magic warrior, it's just at range
*Fighter + Druid: Nature magic to wild shape and use your fighter attack, AOO, and reach to destroy things
These probably don't "feel" right, but they could scratch the itch for the time being.
Thank you for all the input guys, it has been extremely valuable so far.
I will try to keep focused on my main concept/idea, but I have to say. it does not seem possible, or at least the way I envisioned it in first edition:
= Medium Martial capability complemented by Magic, which may make it Good in certain situations;
= Mix up of versatile spells, which allow him... Well... Not raw power, but versatility;
= Be an inspiration to his companions via a recurrent/helpful buff(s)
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I get the feeling PF2e rewards total focus in a role, and that is something I particularly dislike in my characters (I think the only character I ever created with a single class, was a Wizard). I am not looking for a single character that can do all, but for a character which is versatile.
However you guys have given me many viable options, and alternatives - I just need to mull it over, and adapt to playing the concept differently I guess. For now, it seems my original idea is too close to a gish to be viable in 2e.
I dunno, looking at your original build, it feels pretty achievable. But I guess it depends what you mean by things like "medium martial capability" and how much magic you actually want to have.I wasn't as focused on magic in my prior suggestions but that seems doable.
A liberator gives you a recurrent reaction you can use to protect allies AND lets them 5 foot step as a free action, which nicely emulates a buff and shouting tactics. They get a few passive aura buff options and have a some magic options, many of which are defensive like Reknar's spells are. Blade Ally also allows their normally "medium" damage to spike pretty dramatically against the right enemies. And you can then spend your feats on as much spell casting as you want. You won't Inspire until 8th but you can snag Bless at 4th. And scrolls are still a thing.
Ok, I think it has sunk in - I will need to think differently about how to play this concept in PF2e.
For argument's sake, if I insisted on going with a 'martially focused' Bard - what dedication and Spells/Feats would be more 'useful' to bolster that Martial ability?
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Ok, I think it has sunk in - I will need to think differently about how to play this concept in PF2e.
For argument's sake, if I insisted on going with a 'martially focused' Bard - what dedication and Spells/Feats would be more 'useful' to bolster that Martial ability?
Any caster/martial hybrid will be MAD. I recommend getting the Sentinel Dedication so you can dump DEX but still have decent AC and Reflex. It requires a starting STR of 16 (which you should have anyway for any melee buid) and also spending a General Feat on Medium Armor Proficiency ASAP. Boost your STR at level 5 to 18 and get plate armor. Your important ability scores for this build are STR, CON, WIS, and CHA.
Assuming you mean using a bard as the base class...
Any caster/martial hybrid will be MAD. I recommend getting the Sentinel Dedication so you can dump DEX but still have decent AC and Reflex. It requires a starting STR of 16 (which you should have anyway for any melee buid) and also spending a General Feat on Medium Armor Proficiency ASAP. Boost your STR at level 5 to 18 and get plate armor. Your important ability scores for this build are STR, CON, WIS, and CHA.Ok, I think it has sunk in - I will need to think differently about how to play this concept in PF2e.
For argument's sake, if I insisted on going with a 'martially focused' Bard - what dedication and Spells/Feats would be more 'useful' to bolster that Martial ability?
This is solid. Haste will also be a key spell for you because it increases your action economy, letting you stride, strike, and cast every turn. Or cast, strike, inspire in one turn. At low levels Magic Weapon is quite the buff, albeit one you may be better off casting on the party's fighter instead. Heroism will also be good later on. And Dirge of Doom may wind up being better than Inspire Courage if you're going to be in the thick of it.
You might look at Champion too. You get the heavy armor proficiency in one feat and the Reaction is amazing. Unfortunately, the armor proficiency doesn't scale up later, but at 14th level you can take another feat to up it. It's more class feat intensive than Sentinel, but still worth a look. Devote yourself to Shelyn, and it makes sense for a Bard.
Ok, I like these ideas! Thank you guys.
- Bard/Marshal: I guess Snap out of it! and/or Steel Yourself! would make sense, since I would already have Inspire Courage?
- Bard/Sentinel: What are the exact effects of being Trained, or Expert, or a Master in one kind of armor?
- Bard/Champion (I had not envisioned the character too much with a religious bent - after all he is a grizzled veteran sergeant, with not much faith in anything but the one fighting next to you. I may find a fitting deity for him - something along the lines of Crom :D)
I will have a look at a way to stat them, and see how they work out.
Ok, for the effects of armor proficiency:
Armor Class = 10 + Dexterity modifier (up to your armor’s Dex Cap) + proficiency bonus + armor’s item bonus to AC + other bonuses + penalties
If you’re untrained, your proficiency bonus is +0. If you’re trained, expert, master, or legendary, your proficiency bonus equals your level plus 2, 4, 6, or 8, respectively.
So the difference between being trained and expert in the armor you're using is 2 points of AC. This is the same as the difference in any other modifier or DC that you have going up a proficiency level, whether it's proficiency in a weapon, a skill, a save, a casting tradition, etc.
For Marshal, what you really want is the Stance, Dread Marshall stance or Inspiring commander stance.
Both of these kind of alleviate the need for inspire courage (My favorite is dread marshal cause it scales the damage bonus to +4 eventually) and save you a ton of actions on action economy.
Also means that you don't have to be a bard, you can be a Fighter/Champion/Swashbuckler/Ranger with the marshal archetype and buff just as well as the Bard.
If you go bard, bard is a full spellcaster with a good spell list and who gets to legendary. I have a player who plays a Bard/Marshal with a two hander in my game, he swings a decent hit with true strike on a flank if he's hitting a lower level creature. But that's definitely not his go to, his go to is spells.
So basically do you really want spells? Or do you want a gruff fighter with incredible leadership potential.
If you really want to be a spellcaster, you will never be master proficient with weapons, whatever you do, no matter how you go at it, so you'll always be 2 behind (or 4 in the case of fighters) the martial classes, AT BEST, probably 3-4 (or 5-6) because strenght is your secondary attribute and you won't invest in a belt of giant strenght.
Bard/Marshall is kind of interesting. Like a platoon commander or tactician. Choose either Dread Marshall stance and Inspire Courage or Inspiring Marshall stance and Dirge of Doom so they don't conflict. The problem is that the aura for Marshall is small so you need to be near the fight yourself. You need to have a high Dex with the light armor and even then you're a bit squishy. Your effectiveness goes up exponentially the more in your party though.
My main issue with not going Bard and Inspire Courage, is having to wait for X levels before a build ‘comes online’ (and finally gets some mechanic to assist the group), and also my notion (perhaps out of place in 2e) that you can use an appropriate choice of spells not to be a blaster, but to buff others, or yourself to increase your martial ability to a competent level = allowing you to be in the thick of it.
Also please keep in mind I am playing this char from level 1, so it may not be very relevant if it is focused around abilities gained at levels 6+
That being said, completely forgetting about Inspire Courage and spells, it does seem that the Ranger/Marshal combo might do the trick... I assume there are feats based around aiding others in combat also, right? Any suggestions?
And what can I do to have something similar to UMD from 1e to complement this? :D
Yes, a martial/Marshall (ha!) will come online faster than a Bard archetype in terms of buffing. It's just got a smaller aura size to buff with, but it can do other fun things.
As far as aiding others, the aid action from 1e is now a reaction and it has a general DC 20, meaning that it is hard to succeed on at low levels. It also only gives a +1 on a success; +2 or higher for a crit success. So you'd have to make a DC30 to give a +2 to attack. If you can hit a DC 30, you should just be attacking yourself, not aiding.
A better choice is probably to Recall Knowledge on an enemy (using your grizzled veteran experience), or impart a condition on the enemy such as frightened, clumsy, dazzled, etc. If you can Recall Knowledge, make an enemy frightened, flank, and have your Marshall aura going, that's a really solid turn. A 4 point swing on attacks, plus knowing about the enemy will let your team tear into them.
The biggest choice you will need to make is whether you are making yourself better or focusing on helping your team. The more you take feats from your Marshall archetype, the less you can take the excellent Ranger ones. The Ranger is a bit more selfish than some other classes, so the synergy between aiding others and being effective yourself is a bit off. Still, it's workable. 2e is nice in that most builds are viable, even if they aren't amazing. Fighter/Marshall might be a tad better since Fighters can impose lots of conditions to help their allies.
I think you need to choose between 'Magic Warrior' and 'Martial Support'. Very hard to do both.
Lastly, 2e's version of UMD is Trick Magic Item. It requires investment in each type of magic skill (arcana, nature, occultism, religion) that you want to be able to use. Unless you have a lot of skill points, don't try for all four. Maybe you could pick two and be decent.
Bard/Marshall is kind of interesting. Like a platoon commander or tactician. Choose either Dread Marshall stance and Inspire Courage or Inspiring Marshall stance and Dirge of Doom so they don't conflict. The problem is that the aura for Marshall is small so you need to be near the fight yourself. You need to have a high Dex with the light armor and even then you're a bit squishy. Your effectiveness goes up exponentially the more in your party though.
You can also either grab general feat armor proficiency or paladin archetype or sentinel archetype for heavy armor and leave your dex at 10.
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My main issue with not going Bard and Inspire Courage, is having to wait for X levels before a build ‘comes online’ (and finally gets some mechanic to assist the group), and also my notion (perhaps out of place in 2e) that you can use an appropriate choice of spells not to be a blaster, but to buff others, or yourself to increase your martial ability to a competent level = allowing you to be in the thick of it.
Also please keep in mind I am playing this char from level 1, so it may not be very relevant if it is focused around abilities gained at levels 6+
That being said, completely forgetting about Inspire Courage and spells, it does seem that the Ranger/Marshal combo might do the trick... I assume there are feats based around aiding others in combat also, right? Any suggestions?
And what can I do to have something similar to UMD from 1e to complement this? :D
Bard Marshal is online at level 1: Level 1 you have inspire courage, it's an at will cantrip that gives +1 status bonus to attack and damage (and saves vs fear).
You have to take the warrior muse to qualify for martial weapon proficiency for the marshal.
Level 2 grab marshal dedication, become expert in either diplomacy or intimidate (which is VERY good at this level)
Level 4 grab dread marshal aura/inspiring marshal aura. You are now online and the rest is just gravy. This is the same path you would follow as a ranger.
level 6 you can get some better marshal feats or get multifarious muse to go nab Maestro muse and get access to lingering composition/inspire heroics which would both boost your party more.
As a bard you can get a slew of boosting spells such as:
Cantrip: shield
Level 1: true strike, bless.
Level 2: Mirror image (for melee)
Level 3: Circle of protection, heroism (make heroism your signature spell, and you can upcast it at levels 6 and 9 for massive bonuses, best buff spell in the game, but costly)
Level 7: true target (true strike, but for EVERYONE)
Bards have the occult spell list which has a varied dip of a lot of buff/debuff and blast spells.
If you go ranger, getting spellcasting will be much harder on top of your marshal archetype, but still possible, although in a much reduced capacity.
The big question you have to ask yourself is: How proficient do I want to be at stabbing people in the face vs casting spells.
More stabby? Ranger
More casty? Bard
There is no in between.
Hey everyone - I have an update.
So... Things have not been going very well for our band of PF2e adventurers. The group is a Fighter, a Warpriest, a Rogue and a Wizard.
All of these have been at death's door in a single adventuring day. Some even more than once. And in general I feel like we are really, and frequently taking a beating.
So far, PF2e is giving me two distinct impressions which concern me - one is the fact that if you are not full martial, you will take a beating; and the second is that it feels like rocket-tag at level 1... I may be mistaken of course, since this is only a first incursion into 2e.
These perceptions have had a real impact on my enjoyment of the game, and the character. Our rogue used stealth in two separate encounters, to attack from hiding - the corresponding counterattacks took him down the both times. Our warrior stepped on a trap right before a fight, and he was forced to take to the back lines (inefficiently) throwing javelins, since a single hit would have put him down. Our warpriest got caught once in melee with two opponents - went down. My Bard always takes an action to raise his shield (I think his AC is 19 or something like that) - still we came across a small group of humanoids who gained initiative on us two moved and attacked, one threw a javelin - down the Bard goes.
So.... Yeah... Granted, most of the players (I would say 3 out of the 4) are inexperienced in PF2e, but still it feels like we are paying a hefty price. I was enjoying the Bard, and even playing him more careful because of all the advice I have received about the fact he is not a martial character, etc. However I could feel the concern from our martials in taking the lead, because of all the nasty near-death encounters we had already faced. So I took the initiative once. And almost died for it.
For now these are the highlights - will post more info if we continue with the game. It feels a bit touch and go at the moment.
Yeah if you're used to the Easy mode that pf1e is, this is a whole nother game.
Being a martial in no way means you won't get roflstomped hard by on level encounters.
And rogues attacking solo because ''I HAVE A SURPRISE ROUND!'' just does not work anymore.
Work together, debuff is key, and level 1-2 if you have a fighter beat into his head that he can resume hitting stuff over the head hard with a two hander at level 5, for now grab a minor sturdy shield and go sticky the people and trust your bard and warpriest to keep you alive or... you know... they'll heal you after combat.
But this ain't easy mode adventuring anymore, traps will kill you, and monsters are hard.
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So far, PF2e is giving me two distinct impressions which concern me - one is the fact that if you are not full martial, you will take a beating; and the second is that it feels like rocket-tag at level 1...
Some suggestions.
Don't be afraid to drop your monsters a level (or as the GM just take 1 off everything). Some groups enjoy the game more if they have the oppourtunity to have fun with their characters more rather than wargame. I have lowered the level of enemies I put in front of my players (and added more to keep the balance) and they are enjoying the game a lot more as a result.
The critical hit system in PF2 is swings a lot. So yes you can go down in one round especially early. But healing is cheap and easy and you come right back up.
Make sure someone is doing Intimidation checks and you are setting up flanking often. It helps a lot.
The game is fairly tightly optimised. If your AC is off by a few points you will take a lot of extra damage. If you aren't getting 5 points off your Armour + Dex you have missed something or should be in the front rank.
But even if you are doing all that it is still tough early, and takes a while to understand the system.
Yeah, I think that is the gist of it AlastarOG and Gortle.
Unfortunately so far it has not been fun :/
'Tight optimization' kinda makes me feel you 'have to do things a certain way' to succeed, and that sounds too constraining (to me). Much like an MMORPG raid or instance = make sure you have a debuffer, make sure you have this buff, make sure you have this class doing this and that class doing that. Rinse and repeat.
@Gortle: That sounds like a solid plan, and thank you for the specific input. And it makes perfect sense, as GMs always need to make adaptations. However those you pointed out may indeed contribute to make the gameplay a bit different.
On the other hand, there is no one forcing me to change to PF2e - I have been playing it to see if it fits my liking and playstyle. So these are only opinions from a noob perspective.
Only to illustrate what I mean by constrained:
'Rogues should not try to put in a backstab solo'
'Always debuff. Make sure someone is intimidating'
'Until level 5 forget 2h weapons'
'Criticals are brutal. Solution: pray you don't get hit by one'
'If your AC is off by a few points you will take a lot of extra damage'
'But even if you are doing all that it is still tough early'
Dang... And this is only from the last two posts :D
Not sure if I am being clear in my view - this is not going against anyone or even PF2e, these are just my considerations after playing it for a while. I do assume my group of new players is making a lot of mistakes, but if you have to follow a very strict recipe for success, then doesn't it become... Boring?
Having to follow a strict recipe for success isn't really accurate (but does sometimes get treated as accurate on forums). Following general principles (like "always consider if you're supporting your allies, or could be" and "Defensive actions are not wasted") is a different matter.
So, for example, from some of the things you got from this thread and mentioned:
'Rogues should not try to put in a backstab solo' is not exactly accurate, but 'Rogues don't want to be standing there alone next to something that is alive and at or over their level when its turn comes around' is. Both of these things can add up to 'Don't try to solo backstab that thing over there right now' but one of them is laying out a stricter formula than anyone really needs.
'Until level 5 forget 2h weapons' isn't accurate BUT playing in the 1E style of standing and trading full attacks with a 2H weapon is a very dangerous idea.
And some simple adjustments that are extremely helpful in this system, like trying to make sure your enemies are using their actions to approach you, instead of the other way around (when applicable, this obviously isn't for fighting archers) and spending actions on moving back out of the reach of big scary monsters, can feel bad for some players, depending on their idea of the heroic fantasy they want. That's valid, and it can mean that those players won't be that happy with this system, if they're facing challenges that were set up to be dangerous for people that are playing more like wargamers. Either changing the system or changing the encounters might be better, in that case.
All of that being said, if a group of players prefers a game where they can be looser and more solo-focused with their tactics than the first principle I mentioned would indicate, then adjusting adventure design to use slightly lower level enemies goes a long way, if they enjoy other aspects of the system. If a group prefers a different system entirely, that's also 100% valid, of course. Whether adjusting adventures in 2E or continuing to play 1E is a better fit for your group is obviously something you're in a better position to judge than any internet stranger.
I second what Hammerjack is saying, pf2e is harder, it actually took me a while to really appreciate it, cause I was used to just devastating anything in my way in pf1e.
Having monsters make their saving throw on a 13 even though I targeted their weakest save was just very weird to me.
Just to clarify what you said:
'Rogues should not try to put in a backstab solo'
-They shouldn't ''engage'' solo without the party. But that worked like that in 1e too. They can backstab solo (feint, sneak, etc.), but its usually a better idea to coordinate.
'Always debuff. Make sure someone is intimidating'
-You should always be debuffing anyways. Intimidate isnt a must, just an easy way to.
'Until level 5 forget 2h weapons'
-You don't HAVE to.... but if surviving is a problem then its probly a good idea?
'Criticals are brutal. Solution: pray you don't get hit by one'
-Actually the solution is to have high enough AC that the monster needs a 20 to crit you. this can be achieved by a couple of easy things like raising a shield, making sure you have the +5/+6 (depending on if oyure a medium armor or heavy armor user) from armor, and mayhaps a little topoff like forbiding ward cantrip.
'If your AC is off by a few points you will take a lot of extra damage'
-You definitely will! As a caster, half of my game is trying not to get rolled at!
'But even if you are doing all that it is still tough early'
-It definitely is! I love it, but it can be offputting if its not your style. I wouldn't go back to the good old days of me ending a 12 monster encounter with 2 castings of color spray, but some people prefer that.
Thanks for the insight guys - I am reading and learning ;)
Though just to clarify - my preference (as seen from the now long'ish' thread) is for... Lets call it... 'Martially inclined, versatile characters'
Examples:
Melee or Ranged Ranger2/BardX
Magus
Investigator (Dex or Str does not matter - love them)
Dual wielding knives Fighter/Rogue (with UMD through the Roof for surprises)
And I am getting the feeling PF2e kinda 'forces' one to focus laser like to be able to succeed. I want my Fighter to be able to do a few things besides having to focus all his resources in surviving in melee + healing himself repeatedly during the day.
This thread has also contributed a lot for me to understand PF2e is a very different game from PF1e - the character idea discussed here (mechanically and conceptually) almost epitomizes the kind of character I like to play. Not broken at all (some might even say it is subpar), not overstepping anyone else's toes - he will not overshine the fighter, nor the rogue, nor any caster, but with options and versatility in supporting others and himself from day 1.
I am now beginning to understand that if I want to build a character like that, or even a greatsword fighter or barbarian that DOES stand toe to toe with his foes (I am not saying alone against the world, but you know what I mean), this will not happen with PF2e.
But it is all good, because.
All of that being said, if a group of players prefers a game where they can be looser and more solo-focused with their tactics than the first principle I mentioned would indicate, then adjusting adventure design to use slightly lower level enemies goes a long way, if they enjoy other aspects of the system. If a group prefers a different system entirely, that's also 100% valid, of course. Whether adjusting adventures in 2E or continuing to play 1E is a better fit for your group is obviously something you're in a better position to judge than any internet stranger.
HammerJack just nailed it in the head ;)
Again to clarify - I am not talking bad about PF2e, I am exactly trying to understand what kind of game it is, and if it is for me. That is why I am playing it, and also why we are having this conversation. Also I like talking about Role Playing Games :D
Yeah Hybrid characters don't do well unless they have a specialized class for that... and even then some are hit and miss (Looking at you magus playtest...)
That being said, using the free archetype variant does WONDERS for character diversity and I highly recommend it.
You're feeling what all PF1 players encountered when they first moved to PF2. Some of that is the system itself, some of it is encounter/adventure design, and some of it is adjusting the PF1 tactics to PF2 tactics.
But typically some combination of the below does really help:
- Either have the GM adjust down, or simply have PCs at +1 level
- GMs should be careful about how adventures are designed; APs seem more deadly than PFS scenarios (which are designed more 'fun')
- Ensure you have more than a 'standard' 4 PC party; 5-6 goes a long way to opening up space to make tactical errors
- Allow Free Archetype
Yes, PF2 can feel like a meatgrinder at times especially with some of the early APs. And I've seen meleers swing 80 hps back and forth over the course of a round as they take damage and get healed.
From your list:
Melee or Ranged Ranger2/BardX - This is tough in PF2. Maybe a bard with archer archetype or a Bard/Champion
Magus - Remains to be seen
Investigator - Fun and competent Investigators are very possible. In fact, since they tend to use Int to hit, they can easily switch hit with very little lost.
Dual wielding knives Fighter/Rogue - Also doable. A rogue with the dual-weapon warrior is very nice.
Free archetypes are really great for build diversity, and have become my preference over double class feats.
Albion, can you remind us what adventure you're playing? Is it an AP or homebrew?
I believe it is ‘Menace under Otari’ Captain Morgan ;)
Going to look over Free Archetypes.
For versatility free archetype is amazing.
For my players they've been simply picking 1 archetype/class and stuck with that progression.
But for the GM character I'm playing to assist them I went into 3 archetypes by lvl 8 to plug some holes in the party composition.
Eldritch researcher to provide occultism recall knowledge checks and the shield cantrip
Acrobat for automatic Acrobatics progression (it's a swashbuckler)
Blessed One for more in combat healing.
The character doesn't outshine my players either since they picked their niche and slightly improved them via archetypes.
Took a look at Free Archetypes - seems to pose some interesting options, though also the risk of getting out of hand, right? :D
Obviously, as a GM you can always restrict the choices available.
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Took a look at Free Archetypes - seems to pose some interesting options, though also the risk of getting out of hand, right? :D
Obviously, as a GM you can always restrict the choices available.
There is really only so far it can get out of hand to be honest. PF2 caps power pretty effectively. Your characters wind up more versatile, but don't necessarily do more damage per round or whatever.
The biggest power spike i've noticed from free archetype is either beastmaster for extra animal companion (which are effective combatants if sub par to PC's) and picking a secondary caster archetype on a main caster archetype for more spell slots (Oracle picking undead bloodline sorcerer for exemple).
Neither of these are particularly broken, just a bit stronger than baseline. IF your party is struggling, this might mitigate the gap?
I think the only thing Paizo mentioned at being potentially too powerful are the resiliency feats that grant you extra HP for every dedication feat you take.
In reading something about the subject, I believe I also came across some suggested limitations on taking more than X archetypes that provide you bonuses/advantages/stuff that increases with your character level (I may have interpreted it wrongly due to my general PF2e noobness).