I see two fundamental problems with any attempt to make a Gunslinger class, and the first is with the nature of Guns and their development. I'm not really going to talk about the Gunslinger class itself here because the problems I'm talking about are in the weapons themselves.
Guns in the real world are an inherently unbalanced mechanic, that's actually what we love about them. Heroic Fantasy games are about well trained and growing characters taking on extreme challenges to change/improve the world around them. The fact that a cabin boy with almost no training can take an already loaded pistol and have a decent chance of outright killing or mortally wounding a highly trained person (like a Hero) before that person can get in the room is why Guns are called The Great Equalizer.
It takes almost no training or life dedication to become almost as lethal as is possible with a gun in the era of weapons we are talking about. It takes much better equipment and intensive training to get better effective range, but 10 to 20 feet away, if your opponent isn't actively making it difficult with cover or erratic movements they are almost certainly dead or dying after one shot. These guns did have terrible reload times relative to game combat speed (musket takes a well trained soldier 1 to 2 minutes to reload), but those reload times were still worth the lethality they brought and would then be followed up with sword/knife/bayonet work. Even older firearms that took several minutes to load, several seconds to fire with an unpredictable fuse, and terrible aim, were still worth bringing to larger engagements just because if you fire into a crowd someone is likely dead/bleeding out meaning one less fighter your forces have to actually contend with when you get into melee.
But melee isn't really where we should be making our comparisons.
Archery & Crossbows: Any ranged weapon is a massive improvement since you can deal damage without putting yourself at direct risk of retaliation. But they generally weren't very accurate without intensive training. Contrary to the way they are used in games and movies, almost all ranged weapons required both high DEX and STR. But Crossbows overcome the STR requirement by taking extra time to reload, often with a foot, fulcrum, or crank assist. Guns don't care about your STR, and as some have said here, aiming with a gun is less about your DEX than it is your sight (Perception), so should be WIS based.
The only way I see Guns being viably added in Heroic Fantasy are as one-shot per fight tools that are extremely lethal, so use it at the most opportune time. Another part of the power of a Gun is the intimidation factor. Because they are so lethal it makes everyone worried about being the one who makes you decide it's time to use it. Until you get to things like revolvers, the threat basically goes away for the rest of the fight (at least with how short Heroic Fantasy fights are) once it is fired.
Gunslingers: Heroic Fantasy really doesn't have place for a Gunslinger as that didn't even become a real concept until revolvers allowed rapid fire of several shots before requiring reload. Otherwise, your only option was carrying several loaded guns and quickly going through shooting each one, but that is something any sufficiently wealthy character can do.
Snipers: If you had a dedicated sniper they would basically only get one shot from long range to almost guarantee killing an unaware enemy as it not only takes time to reload, but also needs time to take aim and account for the wind and cover. With these weapons you aren't getting a second shot in the typical 3 round fight unless you have a second gun, and even then, the enemies are now aware and will be much harder to hit.
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Pathfinder is designed as a setting where different, mutually incompatible, genres are taking place in different corners of the setting. Golarion end up not making a ton of sense when you think about how the barriers keeping your "Pirates of the Caribbean" away from your "Arabian Nights" away from your "King Solomon's Mines" away from your "Dracula" are all pretty much arbitrary. There are literally plasma cannons rotting away in Numeria somewhere, after all.
Guns are wholly appropriate for a "pirates" game or a "wasteland" game. Those games for which they are inappropriate simply shouldn't have them.
Remember that HP is an abstraction, as taken literally higher level pathfinder characters can already take an alarming number of throwing spears to the torso before falling down.
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You're approaching ten years too late on this - guns and the Gunslinger have been a part of the setting for a long time and were always going to make a return in 2nd edition.
As to your ideas... basically all the weapons characters use are, realistically, pretty good at killing people (to say nothing of fireballs and lightning bolts and the like). That's not how the game works, though. Trying to make guns 'realistic' when nothing else is designed to be realistic doesn't actually make sense, and doesn't contribute to making a game mechanic that is actually enjoyable to engage with.
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And that's what I am waiting for ( in adjunct to the android ancestry )!There are literally plasma cannons rotting away in Numeria somewhere, after all.
If I'm being perfectly honest, I will probably use advanced tech in my games more than regular guns. I've used arc rifles and rail guns already, and plan on using the Guns and Gears book as a reference for the Starfinder conversion that's going on.
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Guns in the real world are an inherently unbalanced mechanic, that's actually what we love about them. Heroic Fantasy games are about well trained and growing characters taking on extreme challenges to change/improve the world around them. The fact that a cabin boy with almost no training can take an already loaded pistol and have a decent chance of outright killing or mortally wounding a highly trained person (like a Hero) before that person can get in the room is why Guns are called The Great Equalizer.
Fundamental problem with this point: heroes are inherently unrealistic. PF players rapidly reach superhuman levels of speed, toughness, and combat intuition. The rules are abstracted already to account for things like magically enhanced arrows that travel at supersonic speeds, monks who can catch bullets, and armor that's many times stronger than the best real world metals. The differences between guns and regular weapons can easily get lost in the amount of abstraction already present.
It takes almost no training or life dedication to become almost as lethal as is possible with a gun in the era of weapons we are talking about....
There's a huge difference between real world "trained" with a gun and in-game "trained/expert/master/legendary". Players are in a scaling world, and it takes increased levels of skill to be as effective as you are just starting out against the powerful threats you'll face. Not just any random kid can target the gaps in a monster's nigh impenetrable exoskeleton with precision and repeatability.
Guns don't care about your STR, and as some have said here, aiming with a gun is less about your DEX than it is your sight (Perception), so should be WIS based.
That would be needless gun exceptionalism. Your steadiness of hand is going to matter at least as much as your ability to see your desired target, especially when you're aiming at specific gaps in defenses, which is the assumed behavior of all attacks in Pathfinder.
The only way I see Guns being viably added in Heroic Fantasy are as one-shot per fight tools that are extremely lethal, so use it at the most opportune time.
Experience has shown that your opinion on this is wrong. Even weapons as astounding as rail guns and lightning rifles have worked seemlessly into my games.
Gunslingers: Heroic Fantasy really doesn't have place for a Gunslinger as that didn't even become a real concept until revolvers allowed rapid fire of several shots before requiring reload. Otherwise, your only option was carrying several loaded guns and quickly going through shooting each one, but that is something any sufficiently wealthy character can do.
A gunslinger can definitely be made that uses single shot weapons, not sure how you came to the conclusion that they're not "real". A bolt action rifle alone would satisfy your own requirements. As for sufficiently wealthy... a set of guns would cost significantly less than a suit of tailored plate armor. Pathfinder characters get exceptionally wealthy pretty dang fast. And if money is really a problem, sell the weapons as a set and make sure it lines up with the expected costs of other similar items.
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People like guns in fantasy because we think guns are cool, not because we want to be OP. I want guns so my alchemist can use an alchemy feeling weapon even when I'm not chucking bombs and can shoot alchemically coated bullets. I don't really care I'm outdamaging a crossbow user, I just want the flavor. Guns are also an opportunity to provide a little more diversity into ranged weaponry in terms of traits and range.
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You could make the same argument for crossbows. The weapon allowed untrained peasants to kill knights in armor.
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I think I can appreciate this argument but fundamentally disagree, i mean in a world where a ball of flame doesn't immediately give you burns that cause serious and permanent damage I don't think the realty or lethality of guns exist in the same way.
The long argument of hp is or isn't actual damage is weird, because its kind of both. It's what you need it to be at any given time, if it wasnt actual damage bleed or poison wouldn't make sense, but even those don't make quite sense.
People want guns because they find them cool, and especially early on guns have a sort of mysticism to the common person. We associated them with pirates, and cowboys which while don't usually go into full on supernatural often have a mythic feel to them. and that's what people want, and their are places in golarion already where that fantastical conception of a gun exists.
It's the same reason why people who clamor for "realistic" names for weapons probably won't get their wishes. This game isn't really for isn't just for people who are like hardcore into historical weaponry, it's to recreate a fantasy and longsword is what people need to hear to know what type of sword you are referring to. (kind of like how british actors have an accent called "standard american" that doesn't actually sound like any particular american accent, but its what british people need to hear to know that someone is american)
The fantasy isn't in the accuracy, or even the lethailty of a weapon. It's in the bang, the thundering, the pulling of the trigger. it's in the mythology of the gun not the history of the gun.
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I see two fundamental problems with any attempt to make a Gunslinger class, and the first is with the nature of Guns and their development. I'm not really going to talk about the Gunslinger class itself here because the problems I'm talking about are in the weapons themselves.
Guns in the real world are an inherently unbalanced mechanic, that's actually what we love about them. Heroic Fantasy games are about well trained and growing characters taking on extreme challenges to change/improve the world around them. The fact that a cabin boy with almost no training can take an already loaded pistol and have a decent chance of outright killing or mortally wounding a highly trained person (like a Hero) before that person can get in the room is why Guns are called The Great Equalizer.
It takes almost no training or life dedication to become almost as lethal as is possible with a gun in the era of weapons we are talking about. It takes much better equipment and intensive training to get better effective range, but 10 to 20 feet away, if your opponent isn't actively making it difficult with cover or erratic movements they are almost certainly dead or dying after one shot. These guns did have terrible reload times relative to game combat speed (musket takes a well trained soldier 1 to 2 minutes to reload), but those reload times were still worth the lethality they brought and would then be followed up with sword/knife/bayonet work. Even older firearms that took several minutes to load, several seconds to fire with an unpredictable fuse, and terrible aim, were still worth bringing to larger engagements just because if you fire into a crowd someone is likely dead/bleeding out meaning one less fighter your forces have to actually contend with when you get into melee.
But melee isn't really where we should be making our comparisons.
Archery & Crossbows: Any ranged weapon is a massive improvement since you can deal damage without putting yourself at direct risk of retaliation. But they generally weren't very...
In real life, yes, most everyone dies from a bullet in the head.
In this game, though, that regular joe could not reasonably harm a well-trained hero. Even at 5th level, a townsfolk will be hard-pressed to hit, let alone crit, an armored hero with 20+ AC, even if they are trained in firearms. If that same hero is 10th level or higher, they couldn't even touch them with any attack whatsoever.
It does, though. Townsfolk don't just brandish firearms, they aren't proficient with them, and aren't exactly affordable on a commoner's yearly income. Heck, even Wizards can't just walk around with a firearm and expect to reasonably use it. (That's more of a jab on Wizard proficiencies, but it's still true of the setting.)
If aiming is more important than making the shot, then every attack would be Wisdom based, regardless of what you used. But between melee attacks requiring power, ranged attacks requiring physical precision, and Wisdom already being the most valuable attribute in the game besides primary stats, it wouldn't make sense. Plus, plenty of people with guns both in Golarion and IRL who do all kinds of stupid things and make poor decisions with them, so I don't find Wisdom to attack being a very compelling argument.
There are plenty of Heroic Fantasy with firearms on a regular basis. Dante and Nero from Devil May Cry are my personal favorites of solid examples I'd expect high-end Gunslinger fantasy to reach. Problem is they are so OP in their respective franchises that it's almost unfair to put the class on that bar without it breaking game balance.
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You could make the same argument for crossbows. The weapon allowed untrained peasants to kill knights in armor.
To be fair, there are plenty of people who complain about how crossbows (& slings) are represented in Pathfinder. Due to how things are balanced, simple weapons are worse than martial weapons by design as a way to distinguish between classes and class proficiency for different characters.
The problem as I see it, and why I personally don't foresee guns being implemented in a way I'd find both engaging and balanced, is that guns became a popular weapon precisely because they violate this distinction. They are simultaneously extremely simple to use and highly lethal compared to the amount of skill/effort put in (point, pull trigger, somehow still too complicated for the wizard).
In the end, guns either become balanced but feel too weak to be called guns, or unbalanced and banned at most tables as a result. At first impression, most of the players at my table see the current playtest as the former - especially when outside of crits (which are nice, but rare against anything that's actually a threat) shooting someone with a flintlock pistol is about as effective as throwing a dart. Except having a Strength mod above +0 can make getting hit by a dart more damaging than getting hit by a bullet, which feels very wrong.
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And that's what I am waiting for ( in adjunct to the android ancestry )!There are literally plasma cannons rotting away in Numeria somewhere, after all.
If I'm being perfectly honest, I will probably use advanced tech in my games more than regular guns. I've used arc rifles and rail guns already, and plan on using the Guns and Gears book as a reference for the Starfinder conversion that's going on.
Same here. I'm dying for anything PF2 steampunk to Numerian high tech. I've embraced putting tech and magictek into my campaigns and its been great. Going to try to use Starfinders starship combat with my high level groups airship as soon as we can play live again.
You could make the same argument for crossbows. The weapon allowed untrained peasants to kill knights in armor.What actually led to guns overtaking crossbows anyways?
no clue maybe it was another step easier
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The big difference is that crossbowmen were kitted out for battle with all sorts of armor, including big pavise shields to hide behind while they reloaded, but none of that did a darn thing to stop a musket ball.
So even if the crossbow was a better weapon, your fairly cheap to equip musket regiment was a lot more effective against the expensive to equip crossbow regiment than the other way around. Thee was, after all, little use in spending money for armor that would not protect your musketeers against muskets.
Crossbows required fairly skilled fletchers, whereas any fool can heat lead over a campfire and pour it into a mold (remember, prior to the advent of riffling it was necessary that the ball be loose in the barrel.) Crossbows were complex mechanisms that were challenging to maintain, while a musket was basically a tube and a stock (you can bash people with it, if it comes to that, and the weapon will be fine).
There's also the thing where when guns and crossbows were comparable in utility (which is about where Pathfinder aims for) the designs for guns were such that there were a great number of technological improvements you could make, whereas crossbows really haven't improved that much in several hundred years since (and even after the advent of black powder weapons, noble-types still used crossbows for hunting because they were *accurate*, so it's not like crossbow R&D was starved.)
After all, right after the advent of firearms you had those very heavy breastplates start cropping up (think of what the conquistadors wore) until gun technology improved enough to penetrate those.
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One thing I have some trouble with is why have guns not spread everywhere if they are better than other weapons? If they are not better, why would not-Gunslingers use them?
And if a Gunslinger is as good with crossbows as they are with guns, and guns are not better than crossbows, why do they even use guns?
And if the guns are better than crossbows, why don't other classes use them rather than crossbows?
I reluctantly come to think that the Gunslinger should be specialized in guns and not other reload weapons. And that other classes that want to use guns and get better results than with other weapons should use the Gunslinger MC dedication.
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Things can be created and used in parallel without one being strictly superior to another. Guns could be a matter of preference to some groups, not requiring exhausting cranking and having lighter ammo.
Not sure why everything needs to be about which is better. You have rogues willingly entering combat with a knife, yet longswords exist??? illogical!
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Things can be created and used in parallel without one being strictly superior to another. Guns could be a matter of preference to some groups, not requiring exhausting cranking and having lighter ammo.
Not sure why everything needs to be about which is better. You have rogues willingly entering combat with a knife, yet longswords exist??? illogical!
IIRC Rogues have abilities that work better with a knife than with a longsword. In other words, the system is designed to support this.
So, the system must also be designed to support how guns are used in the setting.
I really wanted the Gunslinger to be a class that would be closer to the Reload weapon specialist and thus usable even in gaming groups, not to mention settings, that do not want guns.
However, at the moment, because of the reasons I mentioned above, I do not see this.
Which is why I very reluctantly came to the conclusion that the Gunslinger must really be the class focused on making guns a good weapon choice, available to other classes through MC dedication.
I would be incredibly relieved if the devs find a way to make this unnecessary through smart game design of the firearms. Or of the interaction between firearms and the class, while also avoiding the crit-fishing style so many posters dislike about the current version we have.
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One thing I have some trouble with is why have guns not spread everywhere if they are better than other weapons?
They are spreading. In 2e they're in more areas and regions of the world then they were in 1e.
Also, why are guns specific to no-magic areas? Why not just use usual weapons?
They aren't specific to no-magic areas. There are multiple regions in 2e with guns, that have plenty of magic.
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One thing I have some trouble with is why have guns not spread everywhere if they are better than other weapons?They are spreading. In 2e they're in more areas and regions of the world then they were in 1e.
Also, why are guns specific to no-magic areas? Why not just use usual weapons?They aren't specific to no-magic areas. There are multiple regions in 2e with guns, that have plenty of magic.
I meant why did they gain popularity / were invented in Alkenstar, apparently because magic was not available there?
There is nothing in the playtest versions that makes firearms a better choice when you do not have access to magic. The opposite in fact since Fatal makes guns very good weapons to use with the True Strike spell.
And firearms were invented in Alkenstar centuries ago. Why are they not everywhere yet? They should not be spreading. They should have spread for centuries already.
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They didn’t spread because Alkenstar didn’t want them to spread.
That sounds great on paper, but as long as Alkenstar is willing to sell even one example of a working firearm on the open market (even something as huge as one of the bombard cannons) then the technology is out in the wild.
I really don't buy the idea that just because magic is a thing technology will stagnate. I believe that quite the opposite would happen: Crafty mages would just use magic to elevate their scientific pursuits. Wizards make good scientists, it's their whole thing if you really think about it.
Analyze a phenomenon that you don't understand. Form a hypothesis. Test it rigorously. Come to a conclusion. Publish your results.
All of these are applicable to both mages in setting and scientists in any world. The first wizard to find a working firearm would probably go nuts trying to figure out how it works, then reproduce it's effects and eventually refine them.
Once you open Pandora's Box, it's hard to put the cat back in the bag. Or something like that.
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It's also a fictional setting and not an accurate simulation of technological spread.
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Things can be created and used in parallel without one being strictly superior to another. Guns could be a matter of preference to some groups, not requiring exhausting cranking and having lighter ammo.
Not sure why everything needs to be about which is better. You have rogues willingly entering combat with a knife, yet longswords exist??? illogical!
That is generally true. There are weapons that have certain traits or do certain damage, or require certain proficiencies, that only certain classes or playstyles can manage, or interact with classes and their features in certain ways. Warpriests have to use their favored deity weapons. Fighters and other martials with AoO want to use Reach weapons so they can better utilize that feature. And so on.
That being said, this same argument expands as to why Rogues run around with Daggers and Shortswords when there are Longswords and Bastard Swords abound. Rogues are all about Sneak Attack, it's probably their greatest source of damage for combat. You can't get Sneak Attack with Longswords and Bastard Swords, racket be damned, because they don't fall under the certain weapon types that Sneak Attack benefits from. Ergo, because they have nearly essential features that disincline them from using these weapons, you will almost never see them running around with those weapon types.
The problem is that there really isn't anything like this, as far as a feature is concerned, that would make Gunslingers more inclined to take Crossbows over Firearms or vice-versa. There was the "Way" feature that could have done this, but it really doesn't work out too well based on how it interacts with the other "Way" mechanics, or other feats, and so on. It's not so defining compared to their Legendary Gun/Crossbow proficiency that would make them intrinsically valuable to them compared to other mechanics for their class.
I mean, one simple thing that would help out a ton would be if they got mechanics that inclined them to use Reload weapons compared to other weapons (aside from having an effective +2 with them compared to non-Fighters). Being able to reload while holding weapons, reducing reload values by 1, or even something as simple as being able to reset MAP after reloading (or striking with a melee weapon for the Sword and Gun Way), would be a few ideas to make these classes have more incentive to utilizing reload weapons compared to others. And honestly, those things should be baked into the class, not be tied to feats like Firearm Ace. I'd rather the feats be used for optional yet useful things that would really make them shine between their baked-in features. That is, after all, the entire point of feats.
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... The only way I see Guns being viably added in Heroic Fantasy are as one-shot per fight tools that are extremely lethal, so use it at the most opportune time. Another part of the power of a Gun is the intimidation factor. Because they are so lethal it makes everyone worried about being the one who makes you decide it's time to use it. Until you get to things like revolvers, the threat basically goes away for the rest of the fight (at least with how short Heroic Fantasy fights are) once it is fired. ...
This is an interesting discussion thread. I've often had similar discussions with friends.
Let's assume that by "Heroic Fantasy", you're referring to the Pathfinder and D&D model of fantasy games. They're designed as level based games, where you gain hit points, skills and other abilities as you advance on a level tier. We all understand that the Kobold that was a threat at first level becomes no threat at higher levels. Mechanically, weapons, monsters and hazards are designed against that level based system. The same has to be true for firearms or the game breaks down.
If you're looking for more realism from weapons in general, you need instead to be looking at some of the more simulationist RPGs. Rolemaster and Harn come to mind. Simulationist games tend to me more complicated mechanically, but will make weapons function more realistically.
If you're looking for more accurately portrayed firearms, look at more simulationist games like Aftermath! or Morrow Project. To get more realistic effects, many of these simulationist games drop the level system altogether.
I think the Fatal trait is an elegant way to bring guns to Pathfinder 2e. In most fights, they will fit right in with the normal threat levels for the game. But the threat of a critical is still cause for caution. Think about the scenes in any adventure movie, the characters kick, punch, stab and even shoot at each other -- and when the story needs it -- the gun kicks in for massive damage.
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There is nothing in the playtest versions that makes firearms a better choice when you do not have access to magic. The opposite in fact since Fatal makes guns very good weapons to use with the True Strike spell.
This made me think we could have guns designed the exact opposite way : higher normal damage and no doubling for crit damage. And Gunslinger (and its MC dedication) would open the normal doubling for crits for guns.
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They didn’t spread because Alkenstar didn’t want them to spread.That sounds great on paper, but as long as Alkenstar is willing to sell even one example of a working firearm on the open market (even something as huge as one of the bombard cannons) then the technology is out in the wild.
I really don't buy the idea that just because magic is a thing technology will stagnate. I believe that quite the opposite would happen: Crafty mages would just use magic to elevate their scientific pursuits. Wizards make good scientists, it's their whole thing if you really think about it.
Analyze a phenomenon that you don't understand. Form a hypothesis. Test it rigorously. Come to a conclusion. Publish your results.
All of these are applicable to both mages in setting and scientists in any world. The first wizard to find a working firearm would probably go nuts trying to figure out how it works, then reproduce it's effects and eventually refine them.
Once you open Pandora's Box, it's hard to put the cat back in the bag. Or something like that.
They didn’t sell them for the longest time.
As for stagnating, it’s the natural course when you have something that does it better and safer (and cheaper) the other option isn’t as popular.
“Hey kids, you wanna learn magic that does all kinds of things? Or do you want to hold this tube that blows up in your hand and hopefully sends shrapnel at the person you wanna kill?”
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And people in golarion can end up being stabbed by a sword two hundred times in a day and walk it off. The realism of how deadly irl weapons are died long long ago.
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They didn’t sell them for the longest time.
As for stagnating, it’s the natural course when you have something that does it better and safer (and cheaper) the other option isn’t as popular.
“Hey kids, you wanna learn magic that does all kinds of things? Or do you want to hold this tube that blows up in your hand and hopefully sends shrapnel at the person you wanna kill?”
Except that when this is the choice firearms would win out.
This is basically the same question between bows and muskets. One thing is better, but requires years of training and gifted people while the others can be used by anyone.
Firearms don’t win out though, bows are safer, cheaper, and more widespread, and in Pathfinder, require less training than guns, not more.
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Alkenstar resisted the spread of firearms, not because they really care if people in Taldor or Cheliax are shooting each other, but because they don't want "people who could lay siege to Alkenstar/Dongun Hold" to have access to the same kind of firepower as the people defending those places.
They know that you can't blow up their walls with magic, because magic doesn't work there, but they'd strongly prefer they are the only people in their vicinity with cannons.
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Of course they'd want that. Everyone always wants to keep their advances in military technology secret. It never works though. Certainly not long enough to develop an entire firearms industry while no one else even has the most primitive versions.Alkenstar resisted the spread of firearms, not because they really care if people in Taldor or Cheliax are shooting each other, but because they don't want "people who could lay siege to Alkenstar/Dongun Hold" to have access to the same kind of firepower as the people defending those places.
They know that you can't blow up their walls with magic, because magic doesn't work there, but they'd strongly prefer they are the only people in their vicinity with cannons.
Doubly so when you know that there are also firearms in Tian Xia and Arcadia.
And people in golarion can end up being stabbed by a sword two hundred times in a day and walk it off. The realism of how deadly irl weapons are died long long ago.
It's not like you're only fighting other people, either. When a setting allows a high level character to transform into a Kaiju, only to battle an even much larger monster that can swallow you whole. I'm not going to think very highly of a mook with a rifle.
I decided to dig into the history of Alkenstar and firearms in general last night, piqued by Rysky stating that Alkenstar avoided selling them for a long time.
I will be honest, I'm not exactly the most read scholar of Golarion's history. I know a few key events, mostly around AP's that my group has played, and bits and pieces that interest me. But I had never before tried to look at a timeline of events. Now that I have, I'm probably more confused than when I started.
First, I have 2 different conflicting dates as to the founding of Alkenstar as a nation.
This wiki has the founding as sometime before 1903 AR, as that is when the Gunworks were founded. Which is fine and all until...
So did I miss something with the timeline? Or is one of these sources incorrect? I don't have any of the PF1 source books that touch on Alkenstar, so couldn't do the proper research myself.
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Firearms don’t win out though, bows are safer, cheaper, and more widespread, and in Pathfinder, require less training than guns, not more.They didn’t sell them for the longest time.
As for stagnating, it’s the natural course when you have something that does it better and safer (and cheaper) the other option isn’t as popular.
“Hey kids, you wanna learn magic that does all kinds of things? Or do you want to hold this tube that blows up in your hand and hopefully sends shrapnel at the person you wanna kill?”
Except that when this is the choice firearms would win out.
This is basically the same question between bows and muskets. One thing is better, but requires years of training and gifted people while the others can be used by anyone.
Bows don't have misfire, yes. Normal bows don't cost much, true. But Composite Bows are comparable to the low-end firearms in cost, though, and require Martial proficiency to even start properly using them, whereas there are several firearms that can be used by Sorcerers and Witches, compared to even normal Bows, which they aren't proficient with outside of dedications or ancestry feats.
The reason Firearms don't win out is because they're analogous to Crossbows, in that they have to be reloaded all the time and deal garbage in damage per round (unless you crit, but Bows shore that difference up with Deadly). Crossbows are garbage simple weapons which become mediocre when investing in them with feats and abilities. Whereas bows are mediocre martial weapons that become relatively strong when invested in.
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Of course they'd want that. Everyone always wants to keep their advances in military technology secret. It never works though. Certainly not long enough to develop an entire firearms industry while no one else even has the most primitive versions.
Their unique advantage Alkenstar/Dongun Hold has that magic works to call down flaming rocks from the sky in everybody else's backyard, so they don't have the same sort of incentive to invest into firearm R&D.
Alkenstar differs from the rest of the inner sea region in that they are more thoroughly industrialized, and "precision manufacturing" is the #1 thing you need to make high quality firearms and is one of the hardest things to do at scale in a pre-industrial society.
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I assume Alkenstar's lack of "imperial dominance" is that they're kind of hemmed in by nigh-impassible mountains to the east, wasteland to the west, and literal warring archmages to the north and south right where the magic starts working again.
If left unmolested long enough, Alkenstar might sufficient technology to be able to fight on the same level as their neighbors, but that level of technology does not exist on Earth yet on the Golarion timeline. They're mostly trying to hold out against the various wasteland mutants at this point.
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Of course they'd want that. Everyone always wants to keep their advances in military technology secret. It never works though. Certainly not long enough to develop an entire firearms industry while no one else even has the most primitive versions.Their unique advantage Alkenstar/Dongun Hold has that magic works to call down flaming rocks from the sky in everybody else's backyard, so they don't have the same sort of incentive to invest into firearm R&D.
Alkenstar differs from the rest of the inner sea region in that they are more thoroughly industrialized, and "precision manufacturing" is the #1 thing you need to make high quality firearms and is one of the hardest things to do at scale in a pre-industrial society.
Apparently Tian Xia and especially Arcadia (gun-mages) are places with both firearms and calling flaming rocks from the sky though.
I very much look forward to reading the part of Guns and Gears about the development of firearms on Golarion. I am pretty sure they will answer all these paradoxes.