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You can build a character that hurls oversized rocks at enemies at PF2 and will soon get a build for a martial throwing a weapon and shooting it back into their hand. It seems like you are really going to like the gunslinger, who has a lot of over the top narrative options.
Scrying is still definitely possible in PF2, Great news! If you r GM lets you build up options from obscure 3.0/3.5 books for PF1 then the uncommon rarity is not going to stop you from building flying Strix PCs who use acrylic, teleport, greater invisibility and heightened lightning bolts/sudden bolts to do a lot of damage.
Also, for the longer term planar allies/undead hordes, you need to be looking to rituals instead of standard spells. Definitely still possible, mostly designed for NPCs and higher level play, but a GM can dish them out as player options too.
There are a lot of great flavorful high level enemies to throw at high level PCs for gonzo power level play.
Also, this is a game that is 2 years old, getting amazing new content every month. If you are interested in something new, talk about how it could fit in the game, homebrew it, share it with folks that are looking for something similar and maybe it makes its way into the game eventually, or it already has for your table.
Also, this is a game that is 2 years old, getting amazing new content every month. If you are interested in something new, talk about how it could fit in the game, homebrew it, share it with folks that are looking for something similar and maybe it makes its way into the game eventually, or it already has for your table.
Which is why I thought Mythic rules would be a satisfying option for people like Verdyn. Like, sure, the rest of us would prefer to not have Pun Pun in game again, but having a codified set of rules that deliberately approached that level of play would give both DMs and players a way of talking about if that level of extreme ability, abilities that the current PF2 ruleset does not allow for or properly support, is something they want at their table.
And also a way for players to try it out without scouring through 18 year old sourcebooks to look for broken combinations. With Mythic rules, the brokenness would come to you.
Further, I don't think anyone fully enjoyed the PF1 mythic ruleset. It was an interesting idea, but I don't think it quite landed well. So this would give the developers the ability to take another look at it, maybe even have a full playtest for them, before putting them in game.
Ideally they'd be able to playtest and finalize the rules before writing an AP to accompany it. Which would be a long time from playtest to the accompanying adventures, but with something like this that might make for a better product in the end.
Gonzo is literally, "let me described what just happened in the weirdest way possible."
That is a definition. It also is an informal way of saying "outlandish" or "extreme". In terms of managing a table, a lot of what you say is pretty extreme to handle. The rest you can already do in PF2.
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LIGHTNING THROW
Impossible Volley is likely the closest we have at the moment, unless I'm forgetting something (always possible). This one seems more like a spell though, so I don't think we'll see it as a feat.
Martial classes don't really get 1/day abilities natively, so the power level on something like this just isn't there. An exception might be for the Magus; I could see a high level feat that requires you to expend a spell slot to throw your weapon like this.Edit: I mean the +12d6 part, not the "hit all enemies in a line" part. The line is almost certainly going to happen sooner or later.
Edit2: I WAS forgetting something. Penetrating Projectile
DIVINE SURGE, GREATER
Overwhelming Blow has a similar effect, less the "you take constitution damage" (which isn't a thing in PF2, the equivalent would be "you become Drained".
DESERT TEMPEST
Path of Iron. Except Path of Iron is better as it doesn't trigger reactions.
I'll take your word for it. That was right in the middle of my long break from pathfinder, so I never actually got to use them on either side of the screen.
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I don't think squabbling over definitions is particularly helpful in assisting each other find ways to enjoy a hobby that we care about.
Narratively, PF2 is pretty open-ended about what you can make a character be. It is not as open-ended as PF1, exactly, as it is still years behind in content development, but its structure is pretty permissive of a lot of future development.
Some narrative options don't feel super great to play mechanically. Welcome to every RPG ever. 3.x is littered with builds that turn to garbage outside of a very narrow level range. If mechanics are designed to make for meaningful differences between characters, some options will combine better than others. Some options from 3.x that drew a lot of players into the realm of power fantansy don't work the same way in PF2 explicitly to stop that power fantasy from overstepping other players, but even more importantly to Paizo, made adventure writing and development a total mess. Adventures had to be written down to a base level of play that could be so easily trounced by the mildest of tactical or build optimization, that APs became things full of flavor, that experienced tables had to basically completely re-write to fit their tables playstyle. A re-writing that was incredibly time intensive because everything in game had to be built on the same structure as players who might spend 3 years playing the same character.
As a GM it doesn't take too many times of having your Fancy NPC wizard that took 3 hours to build, selecting feats, skills, spells, gets killed in the first round because one their AC, Fort save, or Reflex save was just average, and thus a complete joke to overcome, to realize that the work to reward ration of designing content for PF1 was not paying off for a very large number of GMs. Inviting someone to jump in as a GM for a PF1 game, especially with an experienced group of players was basically a non-starter.
PF2 might be pretty close to as easy to GM as it is to play. Yeah there are still a lot of rules, and everyone messes them up pretty frequently, but the core concept of the game is incredibly simple, consistent and balanced. If you talk to your PCs, listen to the things that are frustrating and look for ways to help enable what everyone wants to do, PF2 becomes a very permissive system.
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LIGHTNING THROWImpossible Volley is likely the closest we have at the moment, unless I'm forgetting something (always possible). This one seems more like a spell though, so I don't think we'll see it as a feat.
Martial classes don't really get 1/day abilities natively, so the power level on something like this just isn't there. An exception might be for the Magus; I could see a high level feat that requires you to expend a spell slot to throw your weapon like this.Edit: I mean the +12d6 part, not the "hit all enemies in a line" part. The line is almost certainly going to happen sooner or later.
Edit2: I WAS forgetting something. Penetrating Projectile
Oh, these aren't once-per-day abilities for the classes that use them. These classes have a limited pool of maneuvers that they can use in combat and a unique refresh mechanic to get them back in combat to keep busting out the insanity all day long. At the time many people thought they were too over the top for the usually more grounded martial characters but even with all that added damage and an endless supply of maneuvers these classes never hit tier 1.
Overwhelming Blow has a similar effect, less the "you take constitution damage" (which isn't a thing in PF2, the equivalent would be "you become Drained".
This feels more like a branch of the old power attack feat tree or than a full-on maneuver. It does have the same feel but the power downgrade is shocking and makes it feel somehow less when taken without context.
Path of Iron. Except Path of Iron is better as it doesn't trigger reactions.
Desert tempest doesn't have any restrictions on your number of attacks and stacks with whatever stance your character is in which could be doing something like adding +1d6 damage per strike at the cost of -2 AC, boos your movement speed by 10 ft. and AC by +2, or gain concealment after the first 10 ft. of movement that lasts until the start of your next turn. Not to mention power attack and the like which could be in the mix.
I know that PF2 is less about stacking damage and modifiers to turn mooks into salsa but there's a reason why a game like Borderlands would rather have guns scale to do millions of damage per second instead of hundreds even though you could have the same mechanical balance either way.
That tends to not be how Martials are designed; their attacks are specifically able to be used at least 1/round.
There's exceptions. Some classes get explicit focus spells which are a recharge mechanic, some have other ways to achieve similar effects like Barbarian Rage powers and Inventor Unstable feats.
Overwhelming Blow has a similar effect, less the "you take constitution damage" (which isn't a thing in PF2, the equivalent would be "you become Drained".This feels more like a branch of the old power attack feat tree or than a full-on maneuver. It does have the same feel but the power downgrade is shocking and makes it feel somehow less when taken without context.
I think you're discounting how this works. At level 16, this would deal 6d(whatever your damage dice is) on a hit and 6d(whatever)+2d12 damage on a crit, plus whatever your rune damage and strength allows, in addition to your normal critical effects.
As d8 is the normal martial 1 handed damage, and 1-2 extra damage runes aren't uncommon at that level, and d12 is pretty common for 2 hand builds, you're probably not far from the 8d8 basic damage. Won't get as high of a crit, but you can do this again every other round until the creature stops moving.
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The whole "Just start at a higher level and fight under-leveled foes kappa" argument doesn't work when entire classical character archetypes aren't supported by PF2. You literally can't play a horde necromancer, a scry-and-die mage, a knowledge devotion divine metamagic divine power cloistered clericzilla, a my ammo is a blackhole hulking hurler, a manipulate the gods diplomancer, and many other fun if completely game warping varieties of total nonsense. If you can't drop a 15th level character into the DCU and make Superman drop a load in his outside-the-pants underwear you've probably been pulling your punches.
Are you trolling?
Those are not archetypes in fantasy or classical character archetypes. Those are abusive powergamer models that Paizo was literally trying to get rid of that developed solely during PF1 and 3E powergamer days. You couldn't even do that in 2nd edition D&D.
You literally listed a list of rules abusive models that PF2 and 5E effectively got rid of that DMs did not want in the game. Good riddance to all of those.
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Gunslinger shooting a weapon back to your hand is still one of the worst ideas I have heard. Its over the top for the sake of being over the top. When there are so many other ways to handle gun + weapon that don't involve literally breaking all laws of physics.
Also all this talk about Gonzo, and relating it to high power. But Gonzo has nothing to do with high power. Heck it has nothing to do with fantasy. Its all about weirdness.
Necromancer was not a Gonzo thing. Alchemist construct crafter was not a Gonzo thing. Divination Wizard was not a Gonzo thing. Shield Master Ranger was not Gonzo. Throwing weapons were not Gonzo (returning and similar abilities are a matter of convenience to maintain money balance).
Gonzo is literally, "let me described what just happened in the weirdest way possible."
This shows a total lack of knowledge about PF2. You can do all this in PF2, but you won't have the power you had in PF1.
So if you aren't interested in super power ups, but can still make most of these types, then what are you asking for?
Also, for the longer term planar allies/undead hordes, you need to be looking to rituals instead of standard spells. Definitely still possible, mostly designed for NPCs and higher level play, but a GM can dish them out as player options too.I don't think its unfair to say that PF2 had gone out of its way to make it more difficult to run a minion master build(summons or necromancy), what with how the minion rules work, and how summoned creature's levels put them at a disadvantage.
Some builds definitely got hit with "We won't say you can't do it, but..." feel.
Have you read rituals? You can make a minion master with rituals combined with summoning. It is costly. I've been looking into it myself.
You can do a lot of stuff with PF2, but it will not be as powerful as PF1. Let's be real. All these people just want power. They don't to play a Horde Necromancer if they don't get the power of PF1, because it is very possible to do so in PF2 but it won't be as powerful.
You can make every archetype, but you don't get to be as powerful.
All they are complaining about is a lack of being able to game the system. That was a 3E/PF1 style of gaming that did not exist before PF1/3E and has now been eradicated again.
If they want they want superhero fantasy, that game exists. PF2 is not that game. I hope Paizo never goes back to that game.
5E is also not that game.
It is obvious that a much, much higher percentage of the player-base no longer wants superhero fantasy like PF1 and 3E. Both D&D and Paizo have moved on from it.
I very much enjoy the "4 ability boosts" system. Not really seeing the "sameness" that people are talking about. Sure, if you go all in on your class's main thing then pump up the save stats, things can look kind of similar. Although even then, you have 12+ stat differences characters' stats (str vs int on a fighter and wizard, for instance)
But the second you start looking for cool stuff you stat array can start looking very different. Multiclassing, using skill feats like Bon Mot, not maximizing your main stat... you can end up with a lot of differences and everyone feeling like they could use more boosts.
And you definitely *can* leaves stats at 10 if you so choose, or slack of on some of your save stats because a couple points here or there aren't going to break you.
I have to disagree, i love second, but stats are the same.
99% of cases are the same.
you increase whatever your main stat is, plus wis, con, and dex
it's too costly to do otherwise. since each plus is so valuable, you need to take advantage of every opportunity to max your save.
Critically failing almost any save, is baaaaad. in this game regardless of what character you are tying to create, basic survivability always has to be at the forefront in second edition.
Well, yeah. Borderlands is a video game, for one thing, and has a computer to calculate all those massive numbers and throw them around for you, as opposed to one person behind a screen trying to keep track of everything on a notepad. Besides which, you do see that same kind of scaling in PF2E. Raising your bonuses because of level and proficiency means that enemies who could pound you into meat jelly at level 4 you can routinely give swirlies to at level 12.
You do realize that I was primarily a DM for 3.x games and that I routinely let my players use any official published material they wanted. 3.x isn't that hard to run if the goals of the players and the DM are alligned properly. On that note, it's even easier now in the ages of digital character sheets and tablets that let everybody calculate bonuses and penalties with the press of a button.
I'd still be running it if my old group wasn't scattered across the world. (I dislike VTT play and a voice call simply can't replicate the experience of being around the table together with friends.) My current group prefers other systems so we stick to those but that doesn't mean I can't desire to have the old 3.x itch scratched again even if that would mean buying books for a system I'll never actually run.