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Hi all. So I want to build a heavy armor using gun user. Specifically I want to use a dragon pistol and tower shield. I was thinking either gun tank 5/fighter (maybe something else) X. That gets me dex to damage and armor training 1. The other idea I had is trench fighter 3 (maybe more?) Then something else. But I'm really not sure how to go about this. Any ideas or advice is welcome. I posed this question to Reddit and the only.real advice I got was to add scatter gunner to gun tank. And one guy suggested dropping the tower shield for a heavy shield and TWFing via savage technologist. I'd really like to keep the tower shield but I can be persuaded otherwise. Dragon pistol is locked though. Thanks all
I was assuming shadow shooting. Sorry. I dont mind the minimum damage too much on a d6 weapon and I'm gonna be stacking a stat to it as well. The neg 2 from tower shields is rough but hitting touch AC makes it a little better
Reloading needs a free hand, so if you stick with a tower shield, you'll need to find a way to deal with that. Either setting the shield as Cover and shooting around it, the Juggler bard archetype, or something magical that reloads for you.
I made a Gun Tank/Warpriest (with the Forgepriest archetype). We ended the campaign around level 13 (might pick it up post-pandemic). I stuck with my own pistol and kept upgrading it with Distance and Greater Reliable, but ended up using a Dwarven Waraxe as my backup weapon until I got Deft Shootist Deed so I could reload and fire in melee without provoking.
I eventually managed to construct Celestial Plate Armor which I paired with a buckler (so I could reload).
Warpriest gave me some extra ability to buff my armor and weapons as needed, and Forgepriest increased how much I could boost it by as long as I was using something I crafted. I pretty much couldn't be hit by anything less than a 20 if I didn't want to be, and buffing myself with Fervor spells didn't provoke.
Warpriest is an interesting idea. Losing BaB hurts. But touch AC makes that more palatable. Thanks for the suggestion
Heavy armor and dex to damage are kind of at odds. Heavy armor limits your dex to AC, dex to damage wants you to push dex as hard as possible, I've seen someone with +9 before short term buffs (they were using slashing grace with a katana). I'd look for a different damage bonus here. There's quite a few possible - the point is that you don't even aim for dex-to-damage.
Being a dwarf and not having to worry about the movement penalty from heavy armor was also nice. Get some boots and you're moving the same speed as everyone else.
The Armor Training helped with the Max Dex, and Celestial Plate Armor let me take full advantage of my 22 Dex. Celestial Plate was reprinted in the Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover in a PF version, so it's not just a 3.5 thing anymore.
Heavy armor and dex to damage are kind of at odds. Heavy armor limits your dex to AC, dex to damage wants you to push dex as hard as possible, I've seen someone with +9 before short term buffs (they were using slashing grace with a katana). I'd look for a different damage bonus here. There's quite a few possible - the point is that you don't even aim for dex-to-damage.
If I don't go dex to damage what do I do? I don't know of any ways to get other stats to a firearm. Except maybe cha via mysterious stranger. But that's limited to grit per day
Stats are a long way from the only damage boost you can get. Slayers get studied target, investigators studied combat, paladins smite, rogues (& similar) try for sneak attack, inquisitors get a laundry list of boosts, etc. Sure those don't get tower shield prof and most don't get firearm prof but multiclassing is a thing.
Stats are a long way from the only damage boost you can get. Slayers get studied target, investigators studied combat, paladins smite, rogues (& similar) try for sneak attack, inquisitors get a laundry list of boosts, etc. Sure those don't get tower shield prof and most don't get firearm prof but multiclassing is a thing.
This is fair enough. I assume that Inquisitor and investigator don't really multiclass well. But slayer gets me some goodies if I go a level or two. Maybe more. I don't have a ton of system mastery, but I'd like to think I'm decent. What level spread am I looking at? Should I worry about gunslinger at all? should I be going fighter for the feats? Is medium really worth the dip too? All of these I don't know how to answer myself. Thanks all. You've given me a lot to think about
Generally speaking, Gunslinger is the worst way to make a gun user. It doesn't really give you a whole lot, so unless you really like the deeds you just want a few specific things:
*Gunsmithing (there are archetypes or you can just take the feat) - If firearms/ammunition are readily available to purchase, you might not need this. It depends on if your GM believes the mending spell can repair a broken firearm.
*Quick Clear (via Amateur Gunslinger) or a 0 misfire chance
If you pick up those things, you can make an effective gun use with pretty much any class.
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Unless you're swimming in gold with nothing to purchase, the 10% cost for ammunition is the reason I always want gunsmithing with any character that uses firearms.
You'll want deadly aim for damage, plus one class feature. This class feature could be dex to damage, or it could be many other different things like bane, weapon training & specialization, sneak attack, studied target, favored enemy, etc... Stacking multiples can be great, but one is generally good enough.
The funny thing with touch AC is that it tends to be high at low levels and low at high levels. At first level, shooting a low level enemy like a kobold or goblin and their normal AC is 15 with touch of 12, but at level 20 you shoot a dragon and their normal AC is 38 while their touch is 5.
I would suggest that you don't want a tower shield at low level, because that -2 will make you miss, but pick it up as you get to mid levels when your attack bonus is good enough that you're hitting on not a missfire.
A lot of 6-level spellcasters multiclass surprisingly well for combat purposes. They lose more out of combat utility from multiclassing, but a heavy armored tower shield user who was looking at the gunslinger and fighter classes may not be overly concerned with utility.
Suppose you go for fighter 1 / steel hound investigator X. The fighter covers the armor proficiencies, the steel hound gets firearms (including quick clear and gunsmithing as the good Doctor just above suggests), and studied combat gives you a healthy attack and damage bonus. You also have extracts for the odd additional trick and inspiration to make skills useful to you, at least those without an armor check penalty.
Alternately a champion medium 1 / warpriest X can also cover the bases well enough, perhaps with one more level dipped to cover firearm feats. Or an earthshadow rogue doesn't really need to use light armor, ranged feint can arrange sneak attack damage, and rogue talents include a lot of relevant tricks - perhaps with a level or two dipped elsewhere to get things online sooner.
Unless you're swimming in gold with nothing to purchase, the 10% cost for ammunition is the reason I always want gunsmithing with any character that uses firearms.
True. I tend to shoot magic bullets, but you definitely have a point.
Unless you're swimming in gold with nothing to purchase, the 10% cost for ammunition is the reason I always want gunsmithing with any character that uses firearms.True. I tend to shoot magic bullets, but you definitely have a point.
The spell cartridges feat is another option there, and the OP mentioned using shadowshooting.
I appreciate all the advice I've gotten so far. I'd really like to keep this character as mundane as possible. But I've been compiling all of the suggestions and I'm going over the different builds. Thanks all
What do you mean by mundane? You'd prefer non-magical classes? Or you'd prefer as little multiclassing by level shenanigans as possible?
It seems, if you really like the idea of using a Tower Shield, that just going Tower Shield Specialist and grabbing gun use via feats could be fun. At least 3 levels improves your ACP and max dex bonus while using a tower shield and at 9th level you'd get to add your shield bonus against touch attacks. Since gun use is a matter of picking up a couple of feats, emphasizing your ability to make use of a tower shield seems like the move. Unfortunately, TS Specialist trades out weapon training, so multiclassing for an offensive boost couldn't hurt.
By mundane I meant little magical ability. I'm not opposed to Multiclassing. I'm mostly mulling over how to best be...not awful in combat. Dex to damage requires me to invest in mithril and armor training. Not focusing dex requires me to figure out the right multiclass combo to get competitive damage. Thanks all
ive always wantedto do a guntank/techslinger into hellknight and make a judge dredd type character
That sounds like a fun concept. I've been slowly building a mountain of concepts out so that I have a rolodex of characters for the next campaign that comes up. I already finished the trickster (fractured mind spiritualist with 4 other dips to get him some martial ability and Desna's divine fighting technique to stack CHA on everything) now I'm working on a gun tank. I did the math. It seems like going gun tank/scatter gunner 5 then tower shield specialist 15 gets me decent damage and AC through the suped up armor training I get. Although it is temping to go fighter/steel hound. The magic just doesn't fit the character. Same deal with a medium dip. Which sounds awesome for the right build. Definitely gonna keep that in mind.
Thanks all
That sounds solid. If you eventually use mithril full plate and a mithril tower shield, you'll be able to benefit from a +8 Dex bonus (26 Dex) as well as get away with 12 or 13 Str. That's not too high of a top end Dex, so you'll be able to invest in Con and Wis decently without really having to dump anything. Just pick up all the relevant ranged feats and you're set. I might try this out at some point; it sounds fun!
Edit: In retrospect, though, I'm not sure the Tower Shield Specialist Fighter archetype is quite worth giving up Weapon Training when you can take the Tower Shield Specialist (Shield Mastery) feat. Getting to add your shield bonus to your touch AC is nice, but I seem to remember there being other ways to do that.
Not 12-13 Str unless you're small; encumbrance has its own max dex limits and even made of mithril and darkwood, a tower shield, full plate, a handy haversack and a pistol comes to over 50 lbs. Str 14 minimum.
You can always drop your pack at the start of fights assuming you're not constantly pulling things out of it in combat, but it turns out being small is probably better for the build anyway especially if you can get bonuses to Dex and Wis/Con.
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You can always drop your pack at the start of fights assuming you're not constantly pulling things out of it in combat, but it turns out being small is probably better for the build anyway especially if you can get bonuses to Dex and Wis/Con.
Everytime a pc does that in games I play, someone steals or attacks the now unattended object.
Great way to lose all that expensive gear.
What weapon training do I even want? The bravery boost maybe? Most of them don't do much for a gun user. Regardless i think I have a shell of this done thanks all
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You can always drop your pack at the start of fights assuming you're not constantly pulling things out of it in combat, but it turns out being small is probably better for the build anyway especially if you can get bonuses to Dex and Wis/Con.Everytime a pc does that in games I play, someone steals or attacks the now unattended object.
Great way to lose all that expensive gear.
LOL! the second time I drop my "pack", it's likely to have something fun in it (like a lit fuse grenade). Or maybe just a Fire Trap/Glyph of Warding?
I'm a GunTank with a dragon pistol (and plans to buy a second).
Welcome to the club!
I actually get around the reloading issue by being a Tiefling with a Prehensile Tail trait and a Grasping Tail feat.
Qlippoth Spawn Tiefling
Black-gold scales, Tatmido armor (MW), Darkwood Towershield, Full Helm (face mask, and we are happier that way...)Lingering smell of brimstone around him...
Sounds like a fun build. I think I'm gonna go shadowshooting to get around reloading. Tower shield is mostly for flavor. I love the mental image of a heavily armored mobile fortress with a cone of destruction
You can always drop your pack at the start of fights assuming you're not constantly pulling things out of it in combat, but it turns out being small is probably better for the build anyway especially if you can get bonuses to Dex and Wis/Con.Everytime a pc does that in games I play, someone steals or attacks the now unattended object.
Great way to lose all that expensive gear.
I mean... wasting actions attacking my unattended pack is a great way to get killed in combat, so... thanks for the buff? If only I'd known backpacks could tank sooner...
What weapon training do I even want? The bravery boost maybe? Most of them don't do much for a gun user. Regardless i think I have a shell of this done thanks all
Umm... Weapon Training in Firearms maybe? I'm not sure why that wouldn't help a gun user. But also Advanced Weapon Training can let you get the appropriate bane for situations with Warrior Spirit, Armed Bravery makes bravery apply to all Will saves, Focused Weapon will let you improve your weapon's base damage as a warpriest's sacred weapon... Weapon Training is easily the Fighter's strongest class feature since the introduction of Advanced Weapon Training.
You probably want another magic item or two with non-zero weight, and mithral full plate, mithral dragon pistol and darkwood tower shield comes to 49 pounds. 13 Str carries 50 pounds unencumbered. Go small or get 14+ Str, really.
Besides - the mobile bulwark feat line has Str prereqs and IMO you need a better reason to carry a tower shield than wanting the image alone.
That's fair enough about needing a good reason for the shield. I normally try to pick suboptimal images then optimize them. Like I said in the original post I'd be willing to use a heavy shield instead. It's a similar image.
As far as weapon training goes. Sacred weapon doesn't do much with a shadowshooting weapon from what I can tell. Of course armed bravery is good. The spiritual points pool is pretty good too I'll admit. I've never really built a fighter before so I'm kinda guessing at what's good
@avr Yeah, but you aren't going to be wearing all that at the start of your career. You have enough time to increase your carrying capacity that you don't need to start with more than a 13. A 26 Dex is so low that you don't need all of your ability score increases from leveling to hit it even if you don't start with a 20. Throwing one more point into Str means you save money on your belt by only needing Dex and Con. If you really want to carry a little more there's an 8k ioun stone that will get you +2 Str if your GM won't let you add it to your belt for cheaper. That's pricey for a +2 but can be worth it at higher levels if you can't easily customize your belt. But being small really is ideal.
@Dox I don't see how shadowshooting and Sacred Weapon affect each other at all. Shadowshooting lets you ignore the need for ammo and you do minimum damage if they make a will save. Sacred weapon increases the weapon's damage. So if they make their will save minimum damage will only ever be 1 higher, but average damage eventually goes up by 5.5 and max damage by 10. Also, the normal Weapon Training class feature is getting you +4 to hit and damage by level 17.
At a certain point the will save is all but gurenteed to be made. So sacred weapon doesn't add any damage to the weapon until level 15 when I get two dice instead of just one. So while normally there's a decent damage pump there. With shadowshooting nearly gurenteed to be doing minimum I think it probably isn't worth it
Yeah, I suppose that is a really low DC Will save... perhaps find a different way around reloading? If your race isn't locked in I'd suggest some brand of tiefling.
Yeah, I suppose that is a really low DC Will save... perhaps find a different way around reloading?
There's a few different ways. I generally prefer to throw gold at my problems. But I could be a Tiefling for a racial ability. My other option is to take 2 levels of alchemist or juggler. Unless I'm missing anything. There's a few different brands of Tiefling so that works well enough
Something to keep in mind is Attacks of Opportunity. If you're going for heavy armor, you're probably going to be in melee range. Both reloading and firing provoke attacks of opportunity. At lower levels, you're probably going to want a melee backup weapon. So you probably don't want to tank your Strength.
Targeting touch AC means that Deadly Aim is pretty much free damage.
Most people ditch out of Gunslinger at 5th level, but at 7th they get Targeting, which provides a variety of debuffs (trip, Confusion, disarm) with no save whatsoever. So no matter the level of the enemy, succeed at a touch attack on their head and there's a 75% chance they won't get their planned action for the round. They're wielding a wand or magic weapon, even 2-handed? Touch AC to force them to drop it, no combat maneuver required. They're running away? Shoot them in the leg for an easy Trip. I think this deed is more powerful than most realize.
With such a high AC and high Dex, I consider provoking attacks of opportunity a boon, but I agree that Targeting is some underrated utility. Though Scatter Gunner gives up Targeting.
@avr Yeah, but you aren't going to be wearing all that at the start of your career. You have enough time to increase your carrying capacity that you don't need to start with more than a 13. A 26 Dex is so low that you don't need all of your ability score increases from leveling to hit it even if you don't start with a 20. Throwing one more point into Str means you save money on your belt by only needing Dex and Con. If you really want to carry a little more there's an 8k ioun stone that will get you +2 Str if your GM won't let you add it to your belt for cheaper. That's pricey for a +2 but can be worth it at higher levels if you can't easily customize your belt. But being small really is ideal.
Early on in their career this character isn't likely to have mithral full plate, and maybe not even a darkwood tower shield. The trick at early levels will be to avoid the heavy encumbrance which gives a +3 max dex. Most small races (all but wayang?) have a -2 Str penalty which makes a 13 actually embarrassingly expensive, though they can probably get by with less.
Also, there are ways of getting high dex earlier than you might think - a mutagen (available to investigators, alchemists or mutation warrior fighters) is potentially a +4 Dex for a reasonable length of time.
TS Specialist (which they weren't taking until 6th level anyway) doesn't actually do anything for your tower shield's max Dex bonus as written, so your max Dex bonus is technically limited to +2 until at least level 8 without GM fiat because you need the Tower Shield Specialist feat. Regardless, you can use lighter armor until level 4 and put your first point of Str there. And I never said there weren't ways of getting high Dex early. I said the build doesn't actually require your Dex to be that high. As in 26 is such a low number to shoot for that it won't be a huge detriment to use ability points from leveling for something other than more Dex. And it's actually 24 because darkwood doesn't improve the max Dex bonus of shields.
As for small races, there's Wayang, yes, but I suggest a small variant of Aasimar or (ideally, Asura-Spawn) Tiefling (with prehensile tail) personally.
Small Tiefling sounds like the race option for me then. Also isn't there a quote from the designer of Tower shield specialist that says tower shield training is supposed to apply to both armor and shield? I remember reading that somewhere. I really don't think going to level 7 in gunslinger is worth it. Scatter gunner or no. I need a lot of feats to get this working. Also. Is a heavy shield really so much better than a tower shield that I should drop my concept for it? Thanks for all the advice btw guys. I really appreciate it.
A heavy shield over a tower shield gives you +2 attack bonus, -2 AC, an emergency melee attack, and no max dex bonus to AC. I hadn't noticed that last with the tower shield and it's a real problem. if you have an 18 Dex then a heavy shield has the same AC as a tower shield. As noted darkwood doesn't help and unless your GM lets you get a unique item you can't make tower shields of mithral.
Yeah, unless you really want the ability to plant your shield for cover from one direction, the heavy shield really is just better.
Dang. Tis sad for me. But if it's that large of a difference it sounds like heavy shield is the way to go then. Thanks
So that's not entirely true. I was looking at a character I built out and the differences are pretty small at higher levels when touch ACs are really low compared to your hit and you are getting to increase the max Dex bonus of the tower shield to +7 (with the feat or maybe +8 with the archetype). At early levels a heavy shield will be easier to work with, but at later levels it comes down to whether you'd prefer a bash attack or the cover option.
Hmm...if it isn't a huge difference...okay. I'm gonna present 3 options.
Tower shield.
Heavy shield.
Dual wielding.
The last two let me keep weapon training. Which now that I'm not shadowshooting is a bigger deal. With that in mind what are y'alls opinions
If this is for something like gun tank gunslinger 5 / fighter X, with tower shield spec. as the fighter archetype if appropriate, and a small tiefling with a tail underneath all that armor (just wanting to confirm what you've decided) -
Tower shield: a slow bloomer. Just ~ 1d4+1 damage once/round (albeit possibly in an area) until 5th level when you can get dex to damage. From about 8th level it's looking good.
Heavy shield: nearly as slow. I'd call it good from 5th-6th level.
TWF: Ow, my feats. TWF & scatter and rapid shot is a lot of attack penalties too. It works but you'll never have a feat for anything but shooting.
A couple of notes - firearms do touch attacks out to one range increment. A dragon pistol fires in a 15' cone or with a 10' range increment. It's not a touch attack when firing a scattering shot as I understand it. Also deadly aim is a damage increasing feat and scatter doesn't work with damage increasing feats, unless your GM rules that this only applies to the vital strike feat line which gets named specifically under the scatter quality.
If this is for something like gun tank gunslinger 5 / fighter X, with tower shield spec. as the fighter archetype if appropriate, and a small tiefling with a tail underneath all that armor (just wanting to confirm what you've decided) -
Tower shield: a slow bloomer. Just ~ 1d4+1 damage once/round (albeit possibly in an area) until 5th level when you can get dex to damage. From about 8th level it's looking good.
Heavy shield: nearly as slow. I'd call it good from 5th-6th level.
TWF: Ow, my feats. TWF & scatter and rapid shot is a lot of attack penalties too. It works but you'll never have a feat for anything but shooting.
A couple of notes - firearms do touch attacks out to one range increment. A dragon pistol fires in a 15' cone or with a 10' range increment. It's not a touch attack when firing a scattering shot as I understand it. Also deadly aim is a damage increasing feat and scatter doesn't work with damage increasing feats, unless your GM rules that this only applies to the vital strike feat line which gets named specifically under the scatter quality.
Nothing is set in stone. But yes those are the details as they stand. Not hitting at touch AC while scattering is...disappointing. If heavy shield and tower shield are that close than I really like the tower shield. But weapon training may be worth enough to forgo it. TWF is rather feat intensive. So I may forgo it. It was my understanding that deadly aim worked with scatter shots. But I also thought it hit touch so...who knows. Thanks avr
After some quick snooping. It seems that the consensus is that you hit touch when scattering. So I'm good there