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Like many good folk, I recently lost my job due to the lockdowns. Ever since I've been doing all sorts of side gigs to try and make ends meet while I look for a new job. One of those attempts at creating work for myself was the creation of ad listings to start pay-to-play games in January. I just found out this evening (on Christmas Day!) that the 2nd Edition Pathfinder Reddit community where I posted my LFG ad listing changed its rules to state "no premium games" and then deleted my listing earlier this morning. There was no such rule prior to my posting the listing. I checked. There were several online communities where I did not post my listing because pay-to-play games were explicitly disallowed.
When I inquired about this, all related correspondence and posts were similarly deleted.
Why is it that those who disdain premium games have any right at all to dictate to others how they play their games, those others who may well value such games for the reliability that such an arrangement can create? Because of this endeavor, I've been called a grifter, and far worse things. If people are willing to pay for said games, and I host said games to the agreed upon expectations, how exactly is it grift? That's honest work!
Why do people feel impelled to publicly respond to my ads, only to state that they are running the same game, at the same time slot, for free? I think it's great that others are doing it (for free or otherwise). The hobby always needs more GMs. What I don't get is the deliberate torpedoing of another man's ad. Where's the logic? What's the purpose other than to be spiteful?
Since I can no longer speak of such things in the PF2E Reddit, I ask you all here, why is there so much disdain and vitriol directed at pay to play GMs? Do they not provide valuable reliability in an online world where games with friends and acquaintances frequently prove unreliable?
Even before I started, I knew not everybody was for it, but what I've encountered this last week is something else entirely. It's nothing short of hateful cancel culture at nearly every turn.
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I've been against pay-to-play GMing since... Always. I'm never one to stop anyone from their "hustle," but turning a game into a job seems so antithetical to what I think a GM should be doing. I don't tell a story because I'm incentivized beyond having a good time. That's personal for me, and I understand other people have different motivations for gaming, but I think paying the bills is a really awful/woefully capitalistic one.
I would also be against paying for friends which this feels like it butts up against.
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The GM-player dynamics certainly change when there's money involved, and there's definitely room for abuse. From that angle, I can understand why a forum would be wary of allowing it. Beyond any perceived "sanctity" of the hobby, there's probably potential for liability should something go south, and I would not want to take that risk were I running such a website.
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I believe it is because the idea of paying for such a service is foreign to most people.
But why is that? Referees and other arbiters are paid in sports and other games the world over.
...turning a game into a job seems so antithetical to what I think a GM should be doing.
I can understand it not "feeling" right as a job, but isn't that kind of setting up a double standard? As I said above, refs at football games and other sporting events (and non-sporting events) are often paid for their work*. What sets GMs apart that they should be stigmatized?
I'm never one to stop anyone from their "hustle."
In what way, shape, or form is it "a hustle?" One party offers a service. Another party willingly pays for said service. Provided all parties meet their obligations, what business is it of anyone else?
...but I think paying the bills is a really awful/woefully capitalistic one.
What's bad about capitalism, or paying one's bills? That's how the world works! That's how responsible people take care of their families.
The GM-player dynamics certainly change when there's money involved, and there's definitely room for abuse. From that angle, I can understand why a forum would be wary of allowing it. Beyond any perceived "sanctity" of the hobby, there's probably potential for liability should something go south, and I would not want to take that risk were I running such a website.
I can certainly understand that at least.
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I've considered both paying and running a paid game. It actually makes me think of another service industry that people perceive as controversial but Idk if it's okay to talk about on the forums.
GM'ing is a skill and as long as everybody agrees on the terms, I don't see the problem. As long as we need money to live if their is a service and you do it well, and you want to offer it as a service then feel free to. As long as we are stuck in this system, people need to make money somehow.
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GM's in many ways aren't just referees, they're also other players. A lot of people want to feel like their DM is actually doing it for the love of the game, not just as a job. It also makes an already unusual (compared to other aspects of life) power dynamic even weirder because money is involved.
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Also, on the concept of a "hustle" and the way you chose to interpret it RD, I think your argument doesn't hold much weight. If a fortune teller and I agree that I'll pay to find out my future via palm reading, I still got scammed regardless of my willingness to pay for the service. That's the entire reason hustles and scams are so predatory.
I'm not saying I think paid GMing is a scam, but I don't think your argument holds much weight.
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I think it really depends on what you’re getting IMO.
Like I’ll admit I’ve never played a game that wasn’t at least containing one decently close friend in it, so the idea of playing with a paid consult is a bit weird.
With that said, it’s a lot of work, a lot of time investment, and some GMs can really put in extra work.
Like for a while I was attempting to learn authentic accents from various regions (particularly English and American accents) so I could give my characters distinct voices and really try to make them feel “real”. Not sure I’d charge or anything, but I know that if I was always putting in that kind of work I’d probably be going further than I normally would.
I imagine there are some GMs that do that, ambience, custom maps, custom items, custom anything.
So to me “jamming with your buddies” is fun, but sometimes you want to spend a little extra on a show you can watch. And heck, I’m a perma GM, there are times I’d almost pay to be a player, so it’s not out of the realm of reason.
Now that said, I think GMing, like music, has a lot of different genres so to speak. This leads to bad mixes sometimes and even the cases of GM horror stories.
No one wants to pay for a bad night out, but maybe the band sucks or the singer doesn’t show for half the set or the acoustics are terrible.
It’s one of those things where I get it for sure, but it needs to be more than “I’m gonna run through this AP and do the base GM deal”, at least to me that’s what’d make it feel worth it.
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Why is it that those who disdain premium games have any right at all to dictate to others how they play their games
I mean, in that example no one is. Not wanting that content on their platform is completely their prerogative. It can be a drag, but that's not really them dictating how you play your game either.
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I think that everyone is taking the wrong meaning from me typing "hustle." I'm not implying its scamming anyone. I mean hustle in the sense of "side-hustle" or "your efforts."
As someone who runs pick-up games at the drop of a hat while also putting an immense amount of effort into their personal games (though not as much as some, I'll admit - have you guys seen these set-ups people have on social media? The luxury!), turning a game into a job changes not only the GM's perspective on the game or the players' perspective, but also anyone interested in the hobby casually. It's embarrassing as all hell to have paid games be associated with your hobby. I can understand Reddit not wanting it to become a sitting ad for someone's side gig (see, avoiding the word hustle, good on me).
And I don't have enough time in my life to go into the problems with capitalism or monetizing every little thing in our lives. Why can't we have one thing that we don't have to pay money to get "premium access" to? Why are good experiences always attached to spending the cash to have that experience? Also, not everyone lives in a capitalist society. Or at least not one so bleak as certain countries where we fear having a child because of how much it will cost us.
Can't I just enjoy a game that I paid for without handing over money to another person? Can't that not be a thing we're more than happy and proud to say out loud? "Sure, yes, other people play this game for free - like suckers - but I provide a premium experience."
Pardon the vitriol, but you can do whatever you want with your life, monetize any little bit of your time, fine. But if you want to know why people are tired of it, here you are.
EDIT: Don't even get me started on trying to capitalize on this venture in the midst of a pandemic when other people are also struggling.
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What’s it like running a paid game? Are they strangers? What do you provide?
I’m genuinely curious because until recently I wasn’t aware paid gming was a legitimate thing outside popular streamers.
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A lot of people really dislike the "pay to play" approach, as I'm sure you've already seen. Why? I'm sure there are many reasons. Some people are also hesitant about paying for basic gaming supplies, like rulebooks and adventure modules, and they'll do anything to get access to them free of charge - sometimes, regardless of their objective ability to pay. And other people simply want to play and can't afford extra costs.
So there's a pretty wide gamut of reactions here. And you need to be understanding towards venues that ban "pay to play" adverts. They may also ban other sorts of advertisement for paid content, like adventure modules.
Making money off our shared hobby isn't easy. But there are ways to do it:
- write 3pp modules or other content, and sell it on a site like DrivethruRPG. I took a foray into this last year, and made a couple hundred bucks. If I'd done it seriously, I could have made significant supplemental income.
- make battle maps, with programs like Dungeondraft. Some artists make money selling maps.
- make other content, like GM advice, NPC design, trap design, etc. If the content is good enough, you'll make a little money from it.
- use Patreon, once you have a certain starting critical mass of content for it to be worth it supporting you. You could also use Patreon as a way to organize "pay-for-play" DMed sessions for your patrons. But IMHO it would work better if you also have other content to offer them.
And Ravingdork, I know you have some good content on offer, even if most or all of it is freely offered to the community. Things like your character emporium are sincerely worth money. Or, they can stay free, and be used as a sample of what people will find behind a paywall.
Pay-to-play DMed sessions aren't illegitimate, as such. But they are a very sensitive topic in the community and need to be approached carefully and respectfully.
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What’s it like running a paid game? Are they strangers? What do you provide?
I’m genuinely curious because until recently I wasn’t aware paid gming was a legitimate thing outside popular streamers.
It can be a little weird. Mine is a combination of strangers and friends. It is all remote so you can't be that "extra" about it with physical props and such. It is mostly exactly what I provide in my "ameteur" games. A Foundry map with appropriate art and character sheets, helping new players build their first character, and so on.
The dynamic definitely threw me at first... I started trying to cram every little bit of the Extinction Curse AP into the first couple sessions rather than just letting things happen or not happen naturally. I was hired to run that specific book by someone who needed to learn Pathfinder for their own professional games.
But part of that was also just not being used to the social dynamic of this new combination of players. As I've gotten more used to the group and more OK with just going with what feels organic, it has become more fun for all parties involved.
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You got any advice for us newbs, Captain Morgan?
I've GM'd for years, but it's always been free games with friends and real world acquaintances. They still would be free if that was really an option for me. (But I would also not actively demean someone for choosing this particular play style.)
Have you actually been booted out of any community?
The reddit sub has rules against a certain topic and deleted content related to that topic, but as far as I can tell you haven't been ostracized, nor does there appear to be any concerted public effort to smear your reputation (as is usually the claim regarding so-called cancel culture).
I've been bullied, cajoled, and demeaned by a fair number of online users with the apparent intent for "GMs like me" to leave their online communities at worst, or cease my current pay-to-play activities at best.
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You got any advice for us newbs, Captain Morgan?
I've GM'd for years, but it's always been free games with friends and real world acquaintances. They still would be free if that was really an option for me. (But I would also not actively demean someone for choosing this particular play style.)
current pay-to-play activities at best.
Well, I'm running one game, I wouldn't say I'm a seasoned vet, but... The biggest thing is that session zero is critical. I mean, it is always critical, but it really matters here. When money changes hands the expectations go up, and the best way of meeting expectations is to actually know them going in. Stuff like difficulty level, decorum, triggering content, the themes of the campaign and what kind of characters are appropriate for it... The more of this you know ahead of time, the greater the odds you can keep the game on track and fun for all. You've seen some of these issues first hand-- players who don't enjoy the difficulty of the AP as written.
Also, not to put to fine on a point on it... But don't make threads like the ones here. Painting yourself as a victim is just bad marketing and doesn't make you look like someone people will want to game with much less pay to do so. For that matter, if I myself was currently in a recruiting drive or trying to build my brand, I'd be reluctant to make posts like the ones I've made in this thread.
A better online presence than mine to emulate would be that of Deadmanwalking. I don't think they run games professionally, but they maintain an admirable level of decorum and expertise and I am pretty sure if they started selling seats at their table this community would buy them.
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If someone wants to pay a reliable, fun GM to run a game with a group of people, I don't see the problem.
People pay for video games, board games, and Adventure Path subscriptions. Shouldn't be a big deal if someone wants to pay some money to get ran through a game or campaign.
People in WoW pay to get run through mythic dungeons and raids. No one seems to care. Up to people how they spend and make their money as long as it's legal.
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Players have no reason to expect a paid for DM is going to be any better than anyone else; the only thing they can expect from a paid for DM is a determination to keep a game running even if it isn't fun, because the DM isn't there to have fun. The only acceptable paid for DM'ing is if you're getting paid by an event organizer IMO.
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I can't get over how people really hate on anyone ordinary trying to turn this hobby into a job, but the same people love GCP and Critical Role..
It's be like saying "it's okay for Bruce Springsteen to make money from his music, but No way I'm playing my wedding singer, he has to do it out of love for the craft..."
I will say, that my first experience with RPG's was with a paid GM. I didn't pay for him, and my buddies didn't either. Our School hired a guy to" come entertain the nerds" and that guy introduced us to GURPS (or his own D100 homebrew variant of it anyway).
He ran a massive Campaign across like 10 different schools. All the groups each had a party tied to the same overarching story.
It was amazing, and he definitely put in his 37 hours a week to keep all of us Kids entertained. He even had extra sessions reaching all of us to GM so we could play in our spare time too.
My point with all of this is, paid games have a time and a place.
As an adult I wouldn't pay for a GM, but I doubt anyone could have given us Kids a better introduction to RPG's than that guy, who came to our School once a week.
You dont actually know that all of these people have that stance though. For example I'm not interested in paid GMs because I think its against the soul of the artform and collaborative effort of cooperative storytelling. I also have a heavy disdain for people like critical role because they've sold out on their platform and in many ways misrepresent the hobby to thousands of potential players.
If you're making money off of something you WILL approach it differently than if you do it solely for the love of the craft.
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There is nothing wrong with it, some people want things for free. Others don't want to see their online locations flooded with adverts.
Honestly the best places to find paying players are
A) local game stores
B) build a community and offer it as a service
Just, don't treat paid GMing the same as a home game. It isn't, it is a service and you are way more accountable.
I agree with what other people have said, it is a good way to kill your love of a hobby if you don't have the right mindset. Mini painting commissions were hard enough for me, I cannot see myself doing for profit paid GMing gigs anytime soon.
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I don’t have a disdain for paid GMs, though I’d never personally GM for pay or pay for GMing (though the old social contract of GM brings game players bring snacks is still technically paying for GMing I guess)...
That being said, I have heard that paid GMing can be done effectively online. Asking people to pay, even a small amount, tends to weed out some bad players - mostly ones that no show consistently. I’ve usually heard of people asking for a small amount like $2.50/month though, then even potentially handwaving the payments if they like the players.
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I've been bullied, cajoled, and demeaned by a fair number of online users with the apparent intent for "GMs like me" to leave their online communities at worst, or cease my current pay-to-play activities at best.
Just be confident in the fact that you are not the only one doing so, as Clinton Boomer does it to help make ends meet.
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Yep, responsible...people...taking... care of their...families. Delicious.
Srsly though RD, it’s an odd one to be sure. You can pay to have your kids taught karate, or parkour, but the soccer coach doesn’t get paid*. Distance reiki healing can be expensive, but if you are in the right country, a visit to the hospital can be free.
I daresay there are some soulless hacks grinding out games for dosh, but I imagine their players sack them. I don’t see the “soul” or “art” being tainted by an economic exchange any more than that of a highly paid concert pianist. In fact, I’ll probably get ornery if folk invoke “art” as that industry is actually soulless. Unless you want to buy fecal matter in a can at the current price of gold - that artwork is sheer brilliance. Banksy’s self-shredding artwork was good too...
I wouldn’t pay for it. But I wouldn’t say no to getting paid to do it. And I definitely wouldn’t watch someone else get paid to do it, or even watch someone do it for free. Not after the first time. Still get the jitters thinking about it. Actual play streamed online completely destroys the soul of the artform. Or something. Unless they pay me to do it. Then it’s completely legit. Unless my contract says I have to play a halfling, elf, dwarf or gnome. Then I'll be in my trailer running a PbP for free.
*Though often technically the players do pay the ref who gets paid by the players’ club or association fees.
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RD what's your time zone and standard rate? Maybe those of us who support the idea can give you a head start, let you record the games as well for advertising/secondary revenue creation.
I mean I've not actually gotten to be a player for PF2 yet...
The here on Paizo linked to the Campaign on Roll20 where it was $15 per session...
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Although the Recruitment here on Paizo doesn’t tacitly acknowledge the game is pay to play. I found that out by following the link. Now I know RD’s real name too!!!
Sorry you lost your job RD, and hope you can make ends meet.
I edited my post Malk - its on Roll20...
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Players have no reason to expect a paid for DM is going to be any better than anyone else; the only thing they can expect from a paid for DM is a determination to keep a game running even if it isn't fun, because the DM isn't there to have fun. The only acceptable paid for DM'ing is if you're getting paid by an event organizer IMO.
You wouldn't get much return business if you weren't running a fun game. No one is holding you there if you don't like the DM. We pay all types of people to do all types of things well. Some of the highest paid directors make some of the best movies. They proved they can make amazing movies and they get paid for it. Same with actors, dancers, and anyone. Why shouldn't a great DM get to monetize his craft? If he's a badass at running a game and adventure design, reliable, and puts in the work to earn that money, I say let him get paid.
A paid DM would work like any other for profit venture. If they're good, they keep getting paid. If they're bad, they don't. They get bad word of mouth. Anyone getting paid to DM has it in their best interest to make the game as fun as possible.
I'd pay to play a game with Matt Mercer. You can bet on that.
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I would probably pay for a GM if I had more money, but damn my expectations would go way up, at minimum I would want that it would be better than my amateur sessions.
And if the GM have a session recorded or a podcast it would be even better because I could set my expectations to something close to that recorded session or even see if I would pay for it at all.
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I was one who disdained the idea of pay to play...until I started hunting for a regularly scheduled D&D 5th edition game to join.
I don’t use Social Media, so that avenue for game scheduling was out (admittedly by my own choices), and some of the larger D&D Discord avenues were tougher to work into my schedule from a planning perspective, since the vast majority would start shortly after the postings went up. Once I decided that a pay to play was likely the path of least resistance to finding a committed, regularly scheduled D&D 5e game, it became much easier for me to get into one (I used Roll20’s search functions to find it).
I have had no such problems with finding Pathfinder or Starfinder games to join, however, so I have yet to pay for any of those besides offsetting some costs of AP materials in one game I’m involved in. I consider that a ringing endorsement of Paizo’s organized play structure which, from an accessibility standpoint, was very easy for me to slide into and find games with once I knew were to look and decided to do so.
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My wife gets to hear all about being compensated for "the love of the art." She works in education. I think GMs are rare, and a lot of the hate comes from fears of GMs realizing just how valuable they are.
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I've been a pay for play GM twice. Both times, it was for a group of players advertising for a GM.
The first group interviewed several GMs and selected me out of the pool. The second group "hired" me after a few messages back and forth.
I still have a guy from the first group in one of my regular ("free") games.
The experience was positive with both groups, and the "dynamic" wasn't that different from other games I have run. I had the luxury of using the money made enhancing my gear (better headset, then separate microphone) and buying additional resources (maps, modules,etc) for online gaming. In essence, I reinvested in the "business", and also helped my "private" games.
I would definitely keep my eyes open for additional opportunities. I run with Fantasy Grounds and they have a separate forum for pay to play as well as specific instructions what to post.
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Thank you everyone for sharing stories of your own experiences. It's done a lot to rekindle my spirit this morning. I apologize for being so surely on the matter. I just have a lot riding on this and many of the reactions I was getting (many of which were far more hostile than simply saying "no") were starting to get to me.
The here on Paizo linked to the Campaign where it was $15 per session...RD what's your time zone and standard rate? Maybe those of us who support the idea can give you a head start, let you record the games as well for advertising/secondary revenue creation.
I mean I've not actually gotten to be a player for PF2 yet...
Ah missed that! That seems a reasonable price, would come out slightly higher than my own pay for a four person group.
Somehow missed that it was pbp. Do you have any interest running VTT games RD?
My game will NOT be in PbP format, but a live VTT game run on Roll20 and Discord (voice only). My listing has other details of what you can expect, including time zone and pay rate (EST, $15 per session).