[Non-PFS] [3PP Class Only] Shadowed Keep on the Borderlands

[Jereru]

I know the Life Sphere healer is quite strong because I'm playing one arm. The Vitalist seemed good enough also when I skimmed through it.

I would prefer not to change to healer if I can avoid it, though, as I'm playing way to many of them between all my games. Also, I don't think we need a dedicated healer per se, but rather a divine caster who has access to some healing/recovery spells or wands/scrolls.

[The Ragi]

Sorry to bug in, but the concept of a third-party only adventure interests me to no end, so I'm following this thread.

On healing classes I'd suggest the following options from Interjections Games:

The Cantor: a full support divine singer

The Onmyoji: my favorite class of all times, has talismans for healing and attacking (and a lot else)

The Herbalist: a chaos mage with options to heal and attack

The Cartomancer: another chaos base caster class with healing and attacking options

The first one is really healing focused, while the other three have a more balance selection of heals/buffs and damage/debuff powers, all very modular, crazy and fun. Back when I GM'd PF1 I'd always suggest IG classes, and my players were always pleased with the experience.

[Oceanshieldwolf]

Hey the Ragi, been a while since I’ve seen you around. Didn’t you make a bunch of character sheets for 3PP classes? And yes the Onmyoji is a fun class. Really, all of Bradley’s classes ooze innovation and, surprisingly, ease of play all while being finely balanced. A pity he seems to have stopped...tinkering...with PF2’s onset.

@The Waskally - wow, a full BAB, d10 HD with spells and natural armor. I’d take it just for that and then add a different class at 2nd level! You even get skills as a hill giant! ;p

Srsly, I liked the backstory - was it Heinlein who wrote Job about an angel getting kicked from place to place and the only job he could find every time was washing dishes?

[Today is a good day to... halp]

DM rel20 wrote:

Zwordsman wrote:

Anyone know some 3rd party healing centric classes? I dont' know much.

The ones with access to divine/cure spells that I know of are:

White Necromancer
Spheres of Power + Life Sphere
Vitalist (psionic)
Astral Deva
Magister
Time Warden
priest
Saint
Kobold Press Shaman
Theurge

The Ragi wrote:

Sorry to bug in, but the concept of a third-party only adventure interests me to no end, so I'm following this thread.

On healing classes I'd suggest the following options from Interjections Games:

The Cantor: a full support divine singer

The Onmyoji: my favorite class of all times, has talismans for healing and attacking (and a lot else)

The Herbalist: a chaos mage with options to heal and attack

The Cartomancer: another chaos base caster class with healing and attacking options

The first one is really healing focused, while the other three have a more balance selection of heals/buffs and damage/debuff powers, all very modular, crazy and fun. Back when I GM'd PF1 I'd always suggest IG classes, and my players were always pleased with the experience.

Went digging in a little deeper for some third party healing/divine character types and managed to find some; ironically, many of them were from Drop Dead Studios from their Pre-Spheres releases. These include:

• The Aspect: a 3/4 BAB, 9 levels Cha-based spellcaster that shares some similar thematic concepts to the Godling classes
• The [non-occult] Spiritualist: a 3/4 BAB, 6 levels Cha-based spontaneous spellcaster that has some monk abilities
• The Dilettante: a 3/4 BAB character that seems very similar to 3.5's Factotum class
• The War Dancer: a full BAB, 4 levels Wis-based spontaneous spellcaster that has some unarmored abilities

These were included with a 2019 Drop Dead Press emergency medical funds bundle that was offered; other bundles may or may not have them though.

The Shattered Skies setting by Wayward Rogues Publishing also has some hybrid classes that could also heal. These include:

• the Incarnate: a full BAB, 4 levels Cha-based spontaneous spellcasting hybrid of a Barbarian and Oracle
• the Librarian: a poor BAB, 6 levels Int-based spellcasting hybrid of the Bard and Occultist
• the Comedian: a 3/4 BAB, 6 levels Cha-based spontaneous spellcasting hybrid of the Bard and Witch
• the Empath: a poor BAB, 9 levels Wis-based spontaneous spellcasting hybrid of the Cleric and Psychic
• the Prodigy: a 3/4 BAB, 6 levels Cha-based spontaneous spellcasting hybrid of the Bard and occult Spiritualist
• the Wonderworker: a poor BAB, 9 levels Int-based spontaneous spellcasting hybrid of the Wizard and Druid

These could be found in volumes 2 and 3 to their Hybrid Classes titles.

[Chigao Waiyo]

Jereru wrote:

Also, I don't think we need a dedicated healer per se, but rather a divine caster who has access to some healing/recovery spells or wands/scrolls.

DM rel20 wrote:

If I run the 6, is there anyone that is willing to swap to a divine/healer option? Or I could let the dice choose if everyone is ok with accepting the results.

If it's okay by you, DM rel20, there's a few options I can see Chigao taking that might help to mitigate some of the healing issues facing the party in the short-term.

Firstly, a fairly simple option that could be easily implemented would be to switch out her No-Trace abilities [worth 12 points] with getting the Ranger's spellcasting abilities [also worth 12 points]; while that doesn't give the party an immediate access to healing, mebbe she could switch out her MW sickle for a regular sickle and a 20 partially-charged CLW wand [worth 300 gp] or she could switch out her MW leather armor for a regular leather armor and a 10 partially-charged CLW wand [worth 150 gp]. She could even change both the MW sickle and MW armor to just regular versions and get a 30 partially-charged CLW wand [worth 450 gp].

Secondly, another fairly simple option that can be done is to switch out her No-Trace abilities for channeling or lay on hands abilities; each 1d6 worth of channeling/lay on hands is worth 4 pts or 2 pts if there's an alignment component that affects her channeling- this should net about 3d6 to 6d6 worth of purely channel energy/lay on hands heals. Substituting Channeling for Sneak attack [20 points worth] is also viable with the added bonus of being usable right off the bat; of course, I'd have to put up a copy of the relevant rules for you to look at.

Thirdly, I can also switch out Chigao's Kunoichi Ninja class for another class that can heal. Might go with Drop Dead Studios' [non-occult] Spiritualist [with some character re-tooling or an entirely new character] in that case; although I wouldn't be adverse to doing a multi-classing dip or two instead. ;)

PS. the partial-charged wand costs are courtesy of the Pathfinder Wand Cost Calculator at https://rimzy.net/tools/javascript_pathfinder_wand_cost_calculator.htm ; unable to do a direct link myself.

[Zwordsman]

Oh snapple. Onmyouji. I own that actually. Interjection games. Oddly enough thought it wasn't suppose to bel isted online places; though that doens't include the supplements its a fun class. I think I had one built somewhere actually. bought it years ago and its supps. I'm a big fan of modern media version of Onmyou.
I should go see if I have that Mythweaver/PDF built somewhere still.

====

I had just also built an Archivist
Just needed to pair down to 2 traits, or take additional trait and choose one more of it. (likely the latter here)
Has some utilty Fundamentals-small damage one, one to give temp hp/stabilize at range, one small debuff one that sounds fun.
then 1 or 2 1d6+1 heals at Short Range. Script (spell like thing)
Then a +14 Heal Skill that can use Treat Wounds to heal at a DC 20 for 6hp. or DC 25 to heal for 7hp. which takes an hour unfortunately; though I can lose 4HP healing to cut it down to 30min per use.
Also a small aoe damage script.
Although if I pair down to 2 traits not 3, could take Healing Hands for 1/day (per level) Full Round action Treat Deadly Wounds as per above. (6hp; or if standard actions are half of a full round 2hp as a standard).
Was pondering that but took a nap. Seemed like a fairly fun short range low AC/HP sort of support "caster"

[DM rel20]

The Ragi wrote:

Sorry to bug in, but the concept of a third-party only adventure interests me to no end, so I'm following this thread.

On healing classes I'd suggest the following options from Interjections Games:

The Cantor: a full support divine singer

The Onmyoji: my favorite class of all times, has talismans for healing and attacking (and a lot else)

The Herbalist: a chaos mage with options to heal and attack

The Cartomancer: another chaos base caster class with healing and attacking options

The first one is really healing focused, while the other three have a more balance selection of heals/buffs and damage/debuff powers, all very modular, crazy and fun. Back when I GM'd PF1 I'd always suggest IG classes, and my players were always pleased with the experience.

No worries and thanks for the input.

[Archivist Malik Zell]

Here is the archivist version that has some healing, some debuffs. (I made a section specifically mentioning how they hell in their stat block but ill also put it here)

how to heal as an Archivist:

Heal 8 base skill+1 trait+2Healer's Kit Circ Bonus. +1 Circ to Kit's (Stacks) with Surgeon Tools.
Heal: +12 check. Takes 1 hour *
Healing: Level Lv(1)+1 + (4 INT OR 30min*)
1/day Healer's Hands version: As above. Full Round Action, (or standard w/out INT if half of a full round is a standard).
1/day (+1 floating possible use) Recover Script; 25ft range. 1d6+2; If overloaded 2d6+2
unlimited Staunch; 25ft range. 1 temp hp for 1 min; if hp below -1 they are stablized and gain 1temp hp. overcharging adds extra targets.

Onmyou mainly would heal with Fast Healing when I rechecked my old character. They can heal HP later; but for these level tis fast healing. Which could work moderately well.

That Spheres of Power Scholar looks awesome; but a ton of extra system stuff I'd have to learn which is unlikely so quickly.
Feels like, at a glance, there are al ot of interconnected base system stuff with sphers of power. Though I'll probably look over it. That whole Alchemy and mundane healer is very much my schtict.

Plus its just plain fun to build characters.

[DM rel20]

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

Hey the Ragi, been a while since I’ve seen you around. Didn’t you make a bunch of character sheets for 3PP classes? And yes the Onmyoji is a fun class. Really, all of Bradley’s classes ooze innovation and, surprisingly, ease of play all while being finely balanced. A pity he seems to have stopped...tinkering...with PF2’s onset.

@The Waskally - wow, a full BAB, d10 HD with spells and natural armor. I’d take it just for that and then add a different class at 2nd level! You even get skills as a hill giant! ;p

Srsly, I liked the backstory - was it Heinlein who wrote Job about an angel getting kicked from place to place and the only job he could find every time was washing dishes?

I went back and checked the original content, and I guess the monster levels are like how Monte Cook introduced them - you can level class or race as you see fit, so that does seem like a heck of a single level pickup.

[DM rel20]

Chigao Waiyo wrote:

Firstly, a fairly simple option that could be easily implemented would be to switch out her No-Trace abilities [worth 12 points] with getting the Ranger's spellcasting abilities [also worth 12 points]; while that doesn't give the party an immediate access to healing, mebbe she could switch out her MW sickle for a regular sickle and a 20 partially-charged CLW wand [worth 300 gp] or she could switch out her MW leather armor for a regular leather armor and a 10 partially-charged CLW wand [worth 150 gp]. She could even change both the MW sickle and MW armor to just regular versions and get a 30 partially-charged CLW wand [worth 450 gp].

Secondly, another fairly simple option that can be done is to switch out her No-Trace abilities for channeling or lay on hands abilities; each 1d6 worth of channeling/lay on hands is worth 4 pts or 2 pts if there's an alignment component that affects her channeling- this should net about 3d6 to 6d6 worth of purely channel energy/lay on hands heals. Substituting Channeling for Sneak attack [20 points worth] is also viable with the added bonus of being usable right off the bat; of course, I'd have to put up a copy of the relevant rules for you to look at.

Thirdly, I can also switch out Chigao's Kunoichi Ninja class for another class that can heal. Might go with Drop Dead Studios' [non-occult] Spiritualist [with some character re-tooling or an entirely new character] in that case; although I wouldn't be adverse to doing a multi-classing dip or two...

RE: (1), this works with RAW rules, so I guess that's an option. As a 2nd edition player, I still don't like it, but at least it's not as bad as UMD'ing out of class.

(2) is also fine, as it least it reduces the days to rest up if the group relied purely on skills.

(3) I'm ok with this as well, although a few others have already offered proposals, so it's probably time to formally decide and move forward rather than impose a bunch of extra work for everyone.

[DM rel20]

On a different topic, does anyone know the scale for the Olfden map from The Guide to Darkmoon Vale?

[TheWaskally]

The book doesn't offer a scale for Olfden. Sorry. It looks big.

[DM rel20]

I found a map with a scale in Andoran, Spirit of Liberty. It's zoomed out so the scale is estimated, but it looks like Olfden is 96 miles south of Falcon's Hollow and a little more than 48 miles to the edge of the Arthell Forest.

[Zwordsman]

That's quite a walk indeed.

sidenote; Started building a Scholar. Think I understand all of it except "martial traditions" are a bit confusing. So I'll do that last.
Found a handy guide.

At this point; whether I get to play or not. I'm just having a lot of fun learning alternate systems and building characters.

[DM rel20]

Zwordsman wrote:

That's quite a walk indeed.

sidenote; Started building a Scholar. Think I understand all of it except "martial traditions" are a bit confusing. So I'll do that last.
Found a handy guide.

At this point; whether I get to play or not. I'm just having a lot of fun learning alternate systems and building characters.

Take a look here.

"Proficiencies: Scholars are proficient with simple weapons, as well as light armor and bucklers. In addition, if this is this character’s first level in any class, they may select a martial tradition of their choice."

[Chigao Waiyo]

DM rel20 wrote:

RE: (1), this works with RAW rules, so I guess that's an option. As a 2nd edition player, I still don't like it, but at least it's not as bad as UMD'ing out of class.

(2) is also fine, as it least it reduces the days to rest up if the group relied purely on skills.

(3) I'm ok with this as well, although a few others have already offered proposals, so it's probably time to formally decide and move forward rather than impose a bunch of extra work for everyone.

Glad to hear it on all fronts. :)

Well, as promised, I present some more relevant rules info from Play Manga D20...

The link to it can be found here:

Even more game info.

As one can tell, now with 400% more grey-boxed text. ;p

The information is divided up into two folders, attribute costs and defect costs. The attribute costs content should be read first to make any sense out of the tables inside; as for the defect costs folder, it can be read second; as to what they are, think of them more along the lines of Champions or Gurps disadvantages that gives you extra points. I has this funny feeling that GM's might get more out of this than anyone else...

Now I actually haven't started on making a second class though it may end up being an all-new character if I did one- so that would leave the first two options open for change (or none at all if everybody else is okay with leaving her as is)...

For the Ranger Wis-based spell-casting part, that's only really needed for using a CLW wand. Since Chigao has "Cure light wounds" as a spell-like ability granted by her Fey Magic alternate racial trait, if that would be enough to activate the wand, then there's no need to trade out No trace then, plus the actual spellcasting part wouldn't even come into play right away until 4th level if it does get taken. Also, since she has access to magical or MW equipment from her trait, it would make sense for her to have a CLW wand for the entire party to benefit from.

As for trading out Sneak Attack for Channeling like a Cleric, it could end up going up to 10d6's worth of channeled healing and it'll be available right off the bat, unless everyone prefers that the Channeling gets traded for No trace- which starts at 3rd level+ instead. Alternatively, perhaps Channeling and Sneak Attack can be alternated back and forth, which would give up to 5d6's worth of channeling and sneak attack.

Now if the 10d6 full channeling is desired by the party and GM, then if Ranger spellcasting is considered a no-go, then perhaps No trace can be traded out for Sneak attack.

I do realize that there may be reluctance to making such wholesale changes to the Kunoichi Ninja class, so mebbe to "sweeten the pot" a bit, perhaps the defects option can come into play- that way, Chigao wouldn't have an easier time using either Channeling or Casting compared to a Cleric or Ranger. I could easily see something like the Concentration and Vulnerabilty [Negative Energy] defects come into play during a heal channel or an Arcane Spell Failure and Special Requirement [like needing a holy symbol or being in a particular terrain] to cast the ranger spells. It'll be something left up to the discretion of the GM, of course. ;)

PS. If the Channeling/Spellcasting thing is allowed/approved, then one immediate change I could see would be that the lone 1 gold piece gets spent on a Wooden Holy Symbol [maybe of Daikitsu or some other deity?] and Chigao finally has a Secret of her own; ...she can channel positive energy/cast divine spells while not being a divine caster! Her master would've cautioned her against making this publicly or openly known among others. ;)

[Zwordsman]

DM rel20 wrote:

"Proficiencies: Scholars are proficient with simple weapons, as well as light armor and bucklers. In addition, if this is this character’s first level in any class, they may select a martial tradition of their choice."

Ah I did find that page but like. It doesn't explain what that means I feel like.

For instance; Stone Thrower
barrage sphere this makes sense. I get the sphere. as well as the intro barrage and PBS feat equilvent
Variable-I just get to chose an extra talent.
"Equipment: Halfling Heritage, Sling Combatant"
Thought they were feats from the system but racial feat for halfling was different.

but to be fair. I've onlystarted reading it last night. So it could be obvious and I just haven't run into it yet. Used the search function on the site but haven't come across it yet; just lots of stuff referencing them both.
I asked on reddit if someone had a good framework guide.
It should be easy enough to figure out after work today I imagine.
it certainly seems like an interesting system.

[DM rel20]

Just a quick summary of where we're at:

TheWaskally
JaraelTalathecil
Alt Xeph

Today is a good day to... halp
ChigaoWaiyo
Alt Healer options

Jereru
BraggiWrongeye

Oceanshieldwolf
Kurian

Dread
AndruCardei

Zwordsman
ZelgadisBunraku
Alt ArchivistZell
Alt Scholar in the works.

So, is someone ready to pull the trigger on the alt?

[TheWaskally]

If you mean, play a healer alt so the others can play their original submissions, I'll play Xeph if no one else steps forward.

[DM rel20]

Yep, that’s what I meant.

[TheWaskally]

Well, put Xeph in, coach!

[Zwordsman]

I"m also totally fine with playing the Scholar I'm making.
Has some good heals, some good minor aoes. and I think I can pull off an old dream of Accupunctur Needles.
Basically I get to remake my first ever RolePlaying game character. (in abilities concept; not the character though)

Sphere of might/power is a really neat system wow.

[DM rel20]

Ok, the terminator astral deva is in unless Waskally and Zwordsman want to work it out otherwise. Or, Zwordsman can run the scholar as well.

Otherwise, the group is:

Xeph
ChigaoWaiyo
BraggiWrongeye
Kurian
AndruCardei
ZelgadisBunraku

Storywise, using Xeph's background of working at The Silver Bulette is probably the easiest to tie everyone together. It may be overused and cliché, but it'll probably get us started the quickest. Employers for work/postings for odd jobs can be placed there.

Otherwise 2 characters have links to the Eagle Knights/Diamond Regiment, which could offer up coin for some mercenary work.

As a sandbox adventure, motivation really has to be created for the PC's to go.

[DM rel20]

Zwordsman wrote:

Sphere of might/power is a really neat system wow.

Agreed. Other than maybe a little too much flexibility with the caster stat of choice, it does provide a nice framework to build close to a vision. For Power, they also aimed to provide movement for melee characters, so there are fewer full-attack actions so that martials can enjoy the same/some maneuverability as casters.

[Scholar Zupon]

Zwordsman here. I think I'd love to rock this character. I am not a hyper focused healer (But class does afford quite a lot of nice tools for it). So Waskally can feel free to be the Deva. Zupon is a pretty fantastic gap fill sort to me. Love that style. (although not a ton of damage but not meant to)

I need to input background (i dont really know about setting but I'll spoiler a TLDR version down below for breivity). Actually got a pic for him as well; though no way to use it on this method anywaay.
Also need to finish buying basic equipement (Rations, interesting tools etc). Always kind of hard to figure that detail out. May switch a trait out; snagged it because it is neat. but probably will read Gear and traits during lunch. (its fun)

Second Note Martial Traditions is given one at level 1 of scholar. I went with Field Medic; but the rules state you're allowed to customize as long as it follows the framework given and fits the design scheme.
So I was hoping to switch out the "scout sphere" it gives for "sniper sphere"
I already gain scout from my base class; and if I get sniper sphere that lets me have fun throwing Accupuncture Darts and or shuriken for debuffs. (Sniper's special attack + the debuff talent)

Wanted to run you by that first. The stats I've drawn up curently on this character are assuming it is fine.

Zupon's got a bit of debuff, some healing, and a bit of aoes. Its honestly really neat. I got to almost perfectly recreate a long dead character.

TLDR backstory notes:

Adopted into a scholarly abby/library. He grew up and of course was part of the proccession-did not take well to the religion (not opposed just disinterested to an extent) but loved the learning and reading.
The library did end up undersiege from an Antipaliden with several powerful undead. Zupon hid with the others; but ultimately was responsible for saving several through his medical skill, as well as sneaking and gathering food for the survivors. Due to the course of survival he did learn how to use his tools of healing as tools of combat. He also became rather adept at using a torch with surprising effectiveness.
Once the library was rescued and restored, Zupon became a formal scholar of the library; and was sent out to gather materials-whether they are books, stories, and the like. Basically-try to overcome the past, benefit the library, and come back someday as a teacher.
It can connect to the bar or he could be getting some coin. I'm fine with either

[TheWaskally]

Zwordsman wrote:

I"m also totally fine with playing the Scholar I'm making.

DM rel20 wrote:

Ok, the terminator astral deva is in unless Waskally and Zwordsman want to work it out otherwise. Or, Zwordsman can run the scholar as well.

Zwordman, sounds like a scholar would be the better overall healer choice. So I'll go forward with playing Jarael.

..Yet it sounds like Xeph would be a better overall story choice. ARRGH! Zwordman, say something!!

[Zwordsman]

Either or is good. Feel free to play the Astral Deva as well if you are interested in it.

Zupon has a standard action smaller heal (like 1hp +more if beat DCs)
Standard Treat Woudds Heal check/long care.
These first two can fail the skill check.
Salves (1d8)--though this is somewhat limited to time to craft them over the day. Same resource competes with small AOE burning doom. Think I can have 2 items made at once. maybe 3 have to re-read a specific rule again.

So Zupon doesn't havea ton of "in battle: strong heals. but has a lot of after care, or emergency close range healing. (Is quite fragile though)

Edit I think we edit over ourselves a few times haha

I am up way past my bed time. so I'll be off for a while.
but I always say.
Play what sounds fun. There is nothing wrong with having two folks who can do things. Zupon can be a pretty good back up healer or inbetween healer to help your resources go further. (I know nothing of that class you went with yet~)
I can pretty easy just craft more explosive alchemy items instead of more healing items to refocus slightly throughout the day.

[TheWaskally]

Okay. Xeph plays.

[Kurian]

Meeting at the Silver Bulette works for Kurian. He’d probably haunt the place from time to time. Besides, his links with the Diamond Knights aren’t exactly favorable, though he’d probably be interested in meeting with them and taking their measure, if not also their gold.

[DM rel20]

Note: I've opened up the discussion thread, since recruitment is technically closed. Once everyone agrees on a starting reason, I'll open up the game play thread and get going.