i am going in a 25 point buy gestalst game and we were instructed to try and brake the game as mutch as possible with our build and since i am bad at making builds i am asking to you.
i have a concept but don't know what classes, feats and traits to use to obtain the best out of it
1 CN human
2 melee tank/dpr no preferences on dex or str fighting
3 low cha and no divine magic
4 i would like 1 class/archetipe from warpath (warblade and swordsage from 3.5 included) preferebly both
it is an experimental game with evrithing allawed from 3.5 an third party stuff
any advice is good enough thanks
Are 3rd Edition D&D character options/Feats allowed?
Are other d20 character options allowed? Before I wrote that sentence, I was thinking about D20 Modern Feats, but as I'm writing, I might as well ask for permission to wield d20 Star Wars Light Sabers...
So, there is a 3.5 Feat called Improved Trip, and there is a Pathfinder Feat called Improved Trip. There is a is a Pathfinder Feat called Greater Trip, and Improved Trip is a Prerequisite for Greater Trip. In the event of different Feats of the same name that exist in the different rules systems, how will that be adjudicated? Are they just different Feats of the same name? Can you take Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Trip, and Greater Trip so that you get a +8 on Trip Attempts and get a Free Action attack and an Attack of Opportunity when you Trip them?
I'm going to put your DPR in the thousands at least.
How hard and fast is your no-divine-magic? Normally, I think of my highest DPR-Full Attack build is my Druidzilla Build.
it is more of a concept denial, my character is an anarchist, and as such i wouldn't immagine him following a god (a very accurate depiction of what i want my character personality to be like is tecnoblade from the third arc in the dream smp) but i could reflair that powers to not come from a god, expetially with druid
Are 3rd Edition D&D character options/Feats allowed?
Are other d20 character options allowed? Before I wrote that sentence, I was thinking about D20 Modern Feats, but as I'm writing, I might as well ask for permission to wield d20 Star Wars Light Sabers...
So, there is a 3.5 Feat called Improved Trip, and there is a Pathfinder Feat called Improved Trip. There is a is a Pathfinder Feat called Greater Trip, and Improved Trip is a Prerequisite for Greater Trip. In the event of different Feats of the same name that exist in the different rules systems, how will that be adjudicated? Are they just different Feats of the same name? Can you take Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Trip, and Greater Trip so that you get a +8 on Trip Attempts and get a Free Action attack and an Attack of Opportunity when you Trip them?
I'm going to put your DPR in the thousands at least.
the thing allawed from 3.5 are the classes and class related abilities (like maneuvres for initators) feats and spells are from pathfinder and 3 party
How hard and fast is your no-divine-magic? Normally, I think of my highest DPR-Full Attack build is my Druidzilla Build.
it is more of a concept denial, my character is an anarchist, and as such i wouldn't immagine him following a god (a very accurate depiction of what i want my character personality to be like is tecnoblade from the third arc in the dream smp) but i could reflair that powers to not come from a god, expetially with druid
So my Druidzilla build is not a bad starting place. I made her a Half Elf, but I guess the concept still works as a Human. She is also a Warpriest with the Lesser Blessing of Destruction, and she wanted a Natural Attack Deity, so that left Dahak, Golorion's Evil Dragon god of Destruction, but There's no reason why you can't just be a Druid/Warpriest that represents the destructive force of Nature in general. My Druidzilla Character's name is Hanna Luapele. Luapele is the Hawaiian word for volcano (according to Google), and Hanna is the name of a small town in Hawaii.
How hard and fast is your no-divine-magic? Normally, I think of my highest DPR-Full Attack build is my Druidzilla Build.
it is more of a concept denial, my character is an anarchist, and as such i wouldn't immagine him following a god (a very accurate depiction of what i want my character personality to be like is tecnoblade from the third arc in the dream smp) but i could reflair that powers to not come from a god, expetially with druid
So my Druidzilla build is not a bad starting place. I made her a Half Elf, but I guess the concept still works as a Human. She is also a Warpriest with the Lesser Blessing of Destruction, and she wanted a Natural Attack Deity, so that left Dahak, Golorion's Evil Dragon god of Destruction, but There's no reason why you can't just be a Druid/Warpriest that represents the destructive force of Nature in general. My Druidzilla Character's name is Hanna Luapele. Luapele is the Hawaiian word for volcano (according to Google), and Hanna is the name of a small town in Hawaii.
Are 3rd Edition D&D character options/Feats allowed?
Are other d20 character options allowed? Before I wrote that sentence, I was thinking about D20 Modern Feats, but as I'm writing, I might as well ask for permission to wield d20 Star Wars Light Sabers...
So, there is a 3.5 Feat called Improved Trip, and there is a Pathfinder Feat called Improved Trip. There is a is a Pathfinder Feat called Greater Trip, and Improved Trip is a Prerequisite for Greater Trip. In the event of different Feats of the same name that exist in the different rules systems, how will that be adjudicated? Are they just different Feats of the same name? Can you take Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Trip, and Greater Trip so that you get a +8 on Trip Attempts and get a Free Action attack and an Attack of Opportunity when you Trip them?
I'm going to put your DPR in the thousands at least.
the thing allawed from 3.5 are the classes and class related abilities (like maneuvres for initators) feats and spells are from pathfinder and 3 party
idk what is d20 so probably no
Oh, such a shame if we can't use 3.0 and 3.5 Feats! If your GM wants to break the game as much as possible, it might be worth asking him again for permission to use 3rd and 3.5 Edition Feats.
Seriously! I'm gonna show you a character whose Full Attack can destroy the planet!
After 3rd edition came out, there emerged something called the Open Source Gaming License, which is the legal basis for Pathfinder and all the 3rd party material. People also created other games using this d20 system adapting the same rules sets for Modern settings as well as Star Wars, Gamma World and other things.
Oh, such a shame if we can't use 3.0 and 3.5 Feats! If your GM wants to break the game as much as possible, it might be worth asking him again for permission to use 3rd and 3.5 Edition Feats.
Seriously! I'm gonna show you a character whose Full Attack can destroy the planet!
After 3rd edition came out, there emerged something called the Open Source Gaming License, which is the legal basis for Pathfinder and all the 3rd party material. People also created other games using this d20 system adapting the same rules sets for Modern settings as well as Star Wars, Gamma World and other things.
No harm in asking. Your GM wants full crazy.
well... go on with the build then! no harm in asking i guess
Pay me 100 US dollars, and I’ll create a PDF with a class that says “any character with this class whose player’s name is (insert your name here) instantly wins, even against omnipotent characters”. Technically it would be 3rd party, thus by the rules you presented, would be legal.
Look up Pun Pun the Kobold. Pretty much the same thing as my scratched out text.
EDIT: I don’t remember if he uses Divine Magic, but Pathfinder has retraining rules, so once you’ve achieved the desired result, you can just retrain.
I'm not sure how your gestalt works... but combining Swordsage and Warblade would only net you the faster progression of Maneuvers Known, Maneuvers Readied, and Stances Known. Since they are literally the same class feature, they don't stack, you would just use Swordsage's progression.
Other than that, combining Swordsage and Warblade does get you full BAB and all good saves. I am not overly familiar with either class, but I could see the combination being effective.
What do you want this character to do? Which weapon? Tactics?
I'm not sure how your gestalt works... but combining Swordsage and Warblade would only net you the faster progression of Maneuvers Known, Maneuvers Readied, and Stances Known. Since they are literally the same class feature, they don't stack, you would just use Swordsage's progression.
Other than that, combining Swordsage and Warblade does get you full BAB and all good saves. I am not overly familiar with either class, but I could see the combination being effective.
What do you want this character to do? Which weapon? Tactics?
gestalt works taking the better between the same but warblade and swordsage have a difference in their maneuvres so it would stak like a witch//mage spellcasting.
the main problem is that they run on different stats and i would have to scrifice some phisical stats for the 2 mentals.
weapons i'd go for two handed and medium armor for mobility and i would like to be fairly mobile around the battlefield
Deadly Concussion: When you take a Sunder action with a Bludgeoning weapon against a foe’s armor or shield –and– you
destroy it in one blow, you deal the same damage to the foe that you dealt to the armor or shield.
Combat Brute, 3.5: – If you destroy an opponent’s weapon or shield with a Sunder action, you receive an immediate melee attack on the opponent at the same attack bonus which the Sunder used.
Improved Sunder from the Sword and Fist, 3.0: When you strike an opponent’s weapon, you inflict double damage.
Between these Feats, when you Sunder somebody's Weapon or Shield, you do Double Damage, the wielder takes that amount of damage, and the residual Damage goes to the Wielder, and you get a bonus attack.
I'm thinking that what you want is something like a Maul of the Titans: triple damage vs. inanimate objects. That would stack with the 3.0 Improved Sunder, inflicing quadruple Damage. You'll have to take Craft Wondrous Item. If you are working this into the Druidzilla, you'll need to make an Amulet of Mighty Fists that incorporates "of the Titans" into it: that's a bit dodgy: vet this with your GM. Partial enchantment rules are described in the pathfinder rules under magic item creation, if you were putting this into a normal weapon, it should be legal. A Maul of the Titans normally costs 25,305gp, and is a +3 Greatclub that does triple Damage vs. inanimate objects and can't be used against anyone with under 18 st. So, 305gp is the cost of a Masterwork Greatclub. the 18 Strength thing is a limitation that removed 10% of the value of the item, so the real value should otherwise be 10/9 of that, so 27,777gp, 7sp and 8cp. the +3 Enhancement Bonus costs 18,000gp, so that means the 'of the Titans Enchantment costs 9777gp, 7sp, and 8cp. Putting the 'of the Titans enchantment on an Adamantine Earthbreaker or Sledge Hammer is much more kosher, but like I said, no harm in asking.
You should be able to put the Metalline Enchantment on your Amulet of Mighty Fists anyway, transforming your Natural Attacks into Adamantine and bypass the first 20 points of any object's hardness you attempt to Sunder. Metalline is from the 3.5 Magic Item Compendium and is a +2 equivalent. I would also be able to transform the weapon into Cold Iron, Alchemal Silver, or Steel.
So, if this is allowed--and when you can afford it--when you Sunder your opponent's Shield, you will do quadruple Damage, bypass the first 20 points of Hardness, inflict the same amount of Damage to the wielder, and you will get a bonus Attack. You miss out on some of those things if you are Sundering Armor or Weapons, but you always get a lot of them: you always get at least triple damage that passes to the wielder/wearer.
Knockback: If you hit while using Power Attack, you may make a free Bull Rush, with a bonus equal to your Power Attack damage bonus.
Shock Trooper: Domino Rush: To use this maneuver, you must make a successful bull rush attempt that forces a foe into the same square
as another foe. You may make a free trip attempt against both
foes at the same time, and neither foe gets a chance to trip you
if your attempt fails.
Knockdown: Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.
So after Sundering your opponent's EVERYTHING, inflicting somewhere between triple and octuple damage every time, you will also get a free Bull Rush, and if you take Greater Bull Rush, your Allies all get Attacks of Opportunity--so do you if you can take Paired Opportunist and make good on it--and you get a Free Trip, letting you take a Free Action Attack from 3.5 Improved Trip and an Attack of Opportunity from Greater Trip and another attack of Opportunity from Vicious Stomp (a Pathfinder Feat), and if you Bull Rushed your opponent into another opponent, you get to Trip Both of them. And that's just 1 Attack. An Allosaurus gets 2 Claws and a Bite, and the build I showed you also get a Hair Attack, a Gore Attack, and has Rake! If you did this with say a Thri Kreen Fighter/Psychic Warrior, wielding 2 Adamantine Gythkas with the Versatile Weapon Feat, you get 4 Attacks/round, 5 if you just wanted to play a Thri Kreen using your Claws and Bite. Actually, Thri Kreen Warpriest would be a VERY solid choice. I have a build like this that was intended for a Tengu, but should work really well with a Thri Kreen.
I know about another trick from these forums. The Possess Object Spell. Get your Druid an ring or something that lets you cast Possess Object and create an animateable object with Claws, a bite, horns to Gore with, Talons, and 2 Slams. Make with Adamantine Limbs, and make it Size Colossal. You'll be like Mecha-Godzilla.
wow that is the second craziest build without magic b#@##+*& i have seen
It's not quite a build yet, but I'll see about delivering on my boast.
on reddit another use suggested me a titanmauler/avenger build for improvized weapon Shikigami stile and vital stirke that lets me 24d6 with a normal vital strike and 48d6 with max vital strike, if i incorporate your build with this i am unstoppable i smash your shield and you explode ;-) and some fools told me i martials can't be op just becouse i can't pun-pun or painter wizard. haaaa the FOOOLS!
Someone clued me into Shikigami builds on these forums. I not a big fan of the Titan Mauler Barbarian Archetype, but I really like the Titan Fighter Archetype. I was recently clued into some oversize weapon Traits.
Based on someone else's build, I produced one of my own.
Gallagher
Half Orc, Shaman’s Apprentice, Sacred Tattoos, Fortune's Favored (Faith Trait) Surprise Weapon +2 with Improvised Weapons (Combat Trait), Giant-Blooded (1/2 Penalty for wielding oversized weapons) (Campaign Trait), Anxious Drawback (-2 Diplomacy, and you are presumed to be talking very softly.
Shaman's Apprentice and Sacred Tattoos are alternate racial traits described under Half Orc. Sacred Tattoos gives you +1 Luck Bonus on all Saving Throws. Shaman's Apprentice gives you the Endurance Feat, which lets you sleep in Medium Armor. If you get Full Plate Armor with the Slumbering Armor Modification, you can sleep in it as if it were Medium Armor.
You normally are only allowed 2 Character Traits, the Anxious Drawback allows you to take the third. Fortune's Favored stacks a +1 on top of any Luck Bonus such as your Saving Throw Bonus from Sacred Tattoos, so now you have a +2 on all Saves.
1Fighter1: Catch off Guard, Titan Fighter Archetype, Giant Weapon Wielder, BAB+1 Base Damage 3d6
You'll be using a Sledge Hammer, which is treated as an Improvised Earthbreaker when used as a weapon: 2d6, but yours is Size Large, so 3d6. You take a -4 for using a weapon like this, even as a Titan Fighter, but Giant Blooded reduces the penalty by half, and Suprise Weapon give you a +2, so we've sort of eliminated your penalty.
2F1Monk1: Master of Many Styles, Unarmed 1d6, Monk Stuff, Shikigami Style, Base Damage 4d6
3F1M2: Evasion, Monkey Style, Combat Reflexes, BAB+2
4F2M2: Bravery +1, Intrepid Rescuer, Ability +1, BAB+3, AoO when attacked while Prone
Intrepid Rescuer allows you an Attack of Opportunity whenever anyone attacks a Prone ally, but the thing is, you count as your own ally. It will look funny, but you drop to Pone while in melee, and whenever you are Attacked, you get an Attack of Opportunity.
5F3M2: Incredible Heft(-3 instead of -4 on oversize Impvsd weaons), Shikigami Mimicry, BAB+4, Base Damage 6d6
Since you have the Giant Blooded Trait, your penalty was haved to -2, and I think -3 halved is still -2.
6F4M2: Shikigami Maniuplation, BAB+5, Base Damage 8d6
7F4M2Living Monolith1: Iron Will, Ka Stone: Toughness, Enlarge Person 3/day, Base Damage 12d6
Living Monolith has roleplaying prereqs. Vet this with your GM.
So in melee, Gallagher works simply: Vital Strike with single opponents, Great Cleave for multiple opponents, plus Attacks of Opportunity whenever he is attacked. His Base Damage is 12d6 when Enlarged, upped to 48d6 + 6(Devastating Strike) + 15(Power Attack with BAB+16).
Irongrip Gauntlets allow you to reduce by 2 the penalty for wielding an inappropriately sized weapon.
We can do better.
You said 3rd Party Feats are allowed. You can take the Mighty Frame Feat which gives you the Powerful Frame Racial Trait which lets you be treated as if you were one size larger whenever it is advantageous for you, that means you can wield a Size Huge Sledge Hammer at level 1, and between Shikigami Style Feats and Enlarge Person your base Damage goes up to 16d6 before Vital Strike, 64d6+21 after. You could also get Powerful Frame by playing a Half Giant or a Goliath: 3rd Party Races, but I do like Sacred Tattoos and Shaman's Apprentice. Although another consideration-reminded of this because of Half Giant, is that you might also work in levels of Psychic Warrior and use Expansion instead of Enlarge Person. Expansion is Augmentable, meaning you can Grow 2 Sizes instead of 1 with the expenditure of more points. That will require several levels in PW if I recall correctly, and a re-thinking of the build and not just a tweaking. But it might be worth it. Pscyhic Warrior is both a 3rd Party and a 3.5 class. I think it is more powerful as a 3rd Party Class. You would take Mighty Frame before you take that level in Cavalier and Paired Opportunist.
If you do get to take 3.5 Feats, consider taking the Ancestral Relic Feat. That Feat gives you a magic item that you can invest money in to further enchant by spending money on it. Since this character is build around that Sledge Hammer, it's perfect for you. Get yourself an Adamintine Sledge Hammer, enchant it to work as a Traveller's Anytool, enchant it further to have the 'of the Titans Enchantment, maybe the Shatterspike Enchantment (I reckon that to be a 2000gp enchantment, per the creating and partial magic item enchantment rules.). An argument you might put to your GM to allow you to take 3.5 Feats is that he is already allowing 3.5 Prestige Classes, including, presumably, the Annointed Knight, and the prerequisite for that is Ancestral Relic.
I probably makes sense to work in those Sunder Feats as soon as possible, maybe as early as level 7. Taking Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Greater Sunder, Combat Brute, Deadly Concussion, and 3.0 Improved Sunder in turn. Maybe it makes sense to delay it: these Sundering Feats are big, stacking force multipliers, but they are situational: not everything you fight will be using weapons and armor.
You would be a good candidate for the Cleaving Finish Feats, which give you bonus attacks on the guy next to the guy you dropped in 1 hit.
Let's see how we can shuffle the 3.5 Feats into the Shikigami Stack.
I'm kind of thinking that since we are creating a character that Enlarges, we probably don't need the AoO feature very much: when you Enlarge, your Dexterity goes down by 2 for every Size increment, and that means you lose Attacks of Opportunity for when you are taking Size Increases.
Let's look at Psychic Warrior. I am thinking of recommending Expansion instead of Enlarge Person and therefore Psychic Warrior instead of Living Monolith because Expansion is augmentable to let you grow 2 sizes instead of 1.
Expansion wrote:
Power Points 1...
This increase changes your size category to the next larger one....
If you spend 6 additional power points, this power increases your size by two size categories instead of one. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength, a –4 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum effective Dexterity score of 1), a –2 size penalty on attack rolls, and a –2 size penalty to Armor Class due to your increased size.
If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action instead of a standard action.
you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level
Shows us that you can't just take 1 level in Psychic Warrior and spend more points. You need at least 7, 13 if you also want to manifest this as a Swift Action as well. So, we're not talking about a dip: we're talking about changing classes. I still want 1 level in Titan Fighter Fighter for that plus size weapon, but maybe the rest should be Psychic Warrior. Psychic Warriors get bonus Feats every 3 levels where Fighters get them every 2, but Psychic Warriors get a whole lot of other powers and abilities. As a Fighter/Living Monolith, you will get 2 extra hp/die than you would as a Fighter/Psychic Warrior, but some of your powers will more than offset this.
We were thinking about taking Mighty Frame Feat for your Half Orc, but we are also talking about you playing a Half Giant and getting Powerful Build as a Racial Trait.
Half Orc:
+2 on all Saves
Endurance
Darkvision
vs.
Half Giant
Powerful Build
+3 on Mind Affecting Saves (the most important one. And instead of taking Fate's Favored, you'd take Indomitable Faith which gives you a +1 Will Save)
Wild Talent Psionic Feat
Low Light Vision
This is actually a tough call.
So, I think a good next step for you to decide is
Druidzilla or Big Hammer
and if you are going with Big Hammer, which I think you are,
Half Orc or Half Giant
Living Monolith or Psychic Warrior
I think you may be forgetting Scott, the build is supposed to be gestalt. I can't remember if you're conversant with gestalt builds or not, but the very short hand is that you progress in two classes simultaneously. It becomes even more complicated if you choose to multiclass, but there's nothing that says you can't. You just have to track which half of your gestalt is multi-classing with what classes at what levels.
Basically, OP doesn't have to choose either/or. He can go both Druidzilla AND Big Hammer. Though I admit I don't know how well they'll compliment each other.
I think you may be forgetting Scott, the build is supposed to be gestalt. I can't remember if you're conversant with gestalt builds or not, but the very short hand is that you progress in two classes simultaneously. It becomes even more complicated if you choose to multiclass, but there's nothing that says you can't. You just have to track which half of your gestalt is multi-classing with what classes at what levels.
Basically, OP doesn't have to choose either/or. He can go both Druidzilla AND Big Hammer. Though I admit I don't know how well they'll compliment each other.
The fact that it's gestalt did slip my mind. Although I am still in the brainstorming phase, anyway and still learning the OP's GM's terms and conditions.
I don't know if he can go Druidzilla and Big Hammer.
But if he chooses to go Druidzilla, he can probably go Druid and Warpriest.
And if he goes Big Hammer, he can probably go Fighter and Psychic Warrior.
Gestalt means you each time you level you advance in two separate classes simultaneously.
Using the classes under discussion.
Level 1: You are a Level 1 Druid/Fighter
if you choose to multiclass
Level 2: You are a Druid1-Warpriest1/Fighter1-PsyWarrior1
or, however each of those multiclassing builds best progress.
Multiclassing and gestalt is a headache, but doable. The only part where it would get really hectic, is if you had the same class in the build of each multiclass half of the gestalt. Not sure how that would work, but in theory, you might actually end up with two separate instances of certain class features present at different levels/values. That way lies madness.
I don't allow multiclassing if I am doing gestalt. Sorry, two WHOLE classes has to be good enough for you. No VMC. No Prestige Classes. No multiclassing.
I also don't allow 9th level casters to be gestalt with any other casting class. Nor can two 6th level casting classes be combined. You can gestalt a 6/9 class with a 4/9 class, or two 4/9 casting classes.
I count Alchemy as casting, except I allow Alchemist to be combined with 6th level casting classes (but not 9th level).
So what you're telling me, is that my gestalted Ratfolk Alchemist/Sorcerer is a no go for you. In the same game we have a Bard/Cleric, and an Arcanist/Cleric. The last one really is a terrible idea, but that's as much to do with the player's capabilities as the combo.
Come to think of it, my first gestalt was a Shaman/Skald. That's four classes depending on how you look at hybrids :p
I don't know if I've ever gestalted without putting two casters together. I may have a new objective.
Gestalt means you each time you level you advance in two separate classes simultaneously.
Using the classes under discussion.
Level 1: You are a Level 1 Druid/Fighter
if you choose to multiclass
Level 2: You are a Druid1-Warpriest1/Fighter1-PsyWarrior1
or, however each of those multiclassing builds best progress.
Multiclassing and gestalt is a headache, but doable. The only part where it would get really hectic, is if you had the same class in the build of each multiclass half of the gestalt. Not sure how that would work, but in theory, you might actually end up with two separate instances of certain class features present at different levels/values. That way lies madness.
I didn't mean it can't be done, I just mean I think it would work badly.
I've never played a gestalt system, and I'm having trouble finding a description of it. Let's say I am a Fighter/Wizard. Do I still get spells every level as if I were just a Wizard? Do I still get Feats every other level as if I were a Fighter? How many Skill Points do I get/level: 2 or 4? What if I were a Fighter/Rogue: how many skill points to I get then/level: 2, 8, or 5?
Yay! Something where I can help clarify rules. . . . This seat is nice! I like this side of the room :p
Gestalting: one character advancing in two classes simultaneously.
For all unique class features, you get all of the class features from both classes at every level, this includes bonus feats, spells known/learned, spells per day, and all of the extraordinary, supernatural, or spell like abilities.
For the mechanical features; BAB, saves, skill points, starting gold, you take the better of the two at each level. So advance on the better BAB of the two classes, take the good save track for each save if either class gives it, and a gestalt rogue is getting 8+Int skills per level regardless.
For class skills, you combine both lists. Same with weapon proficiencies.
You are still limited to one FCB per level, and the actions per round of a single character.
The only "penalty" is that you do take the lesser of the two class's armor/sheild proficiencies. Your Fighter/Wizard is getting all the feats and all of the spells, but he is stuck with wizard armor proficiency (i.e. none).
Usually more than raw power, what Gestalting offers is versatility. In the case of Druidzilla with Big Hammer, they won't necessarily support each other, but the character will have at least two terrifying combat styles he can go for. I'm certain though, you can probably find a gestalt build that makes an even more unholy monster out of one of those paths.
Yay! Something where I can help clarify rules. . . . This seat is nice! I like this side of the room :p
It's nice to have you!
Sysryke wrote:
Gestalting: one character advancing in two classes simultaneously.
That I know.
Sysryke wrote:
For all unique class features, you get all of the class features from both classes at every level, this includes bonus feats, spells known/learned, spells per day, and all of the extraordinary, supernatural, or spell like abilities.
So, with my example with the Fighter/Wizard, this character would get a Feat every other level as if he were a single class fighter and spells every level as if he were a single class Wizard, as well as Arcane Feats on Schedule, Weapon Training, Armor Trainig, etc.
Sysryke wrote:
For the mechanical features; BAB, saves, skill points, starting gold, you take the better of the two at each level. So advance on the better BAB of the two classes, take the good save track for each save if either class gives it, and a gestalt rogue is getting 8+Int skills per level regardless.
For class skills, you combine both lists. Same with weapon proficiencies.
You are still limited to one FCB per level, and the actions per round of a single character.
That's very good for the OP if he wants to adapt one of my builds!
Sysryke wrote:
The only "penalty" is that you do take the lesser of the two class's armor/shield proficiencies. Your Fighter/Wizard is getting all the feats and all of the spells, but he is stuck with wizard armor proficiency (i.e. none).
Do you mean he fails to gain Armor and Shield Proficiency at level 1? Is he allowed to take them as Feats later? In the case of the Fighter/Wizard, wearing armor is problematic anyway because of Arcane Spell Failure.
I was/am unaware of the penalty of lesser proficencies. In fact, at my table, I specified that the proficiencies are combined just as skills are.
A Wizard/Fighter would have the proficiencies of the Fighter, however they have no built in way to reduce Arcane Spell Failure associated with wearing most armor. But there are feats to mitigate ACP, and certain armors don't have it, etc.
I think that one exception is because of the incompatibly of armor and arcane magic. The fluff "logic" is that the training you received in whatever your gestalt class is gives you everything that can work together, but keeps you from the inherently incompatible thing you wouldn't have trained in.
I think that one exception is because of the incompatibly of armor and arcane magic. The fluff "logic" is that the training you received in whatever your gestalt class is gives you everything that can work together, but keeps you from the inherently incompatible thing you wouldn't have trained in.
It probably doesn't matter that often. Like I was saying, if one of your classes has an Arcane Spell Failure Chance, that dictates your armor choice regardless of your proficiencies. It wouldn't matter with the 2 character builds I proposed to the OP. The Druidzilla would start off with 1 level in Brawler, then Gestalt as a Druid/Warpriest. I could imagine wanting to wear Heavy Barding as a Dinosaur, but as a Druid, I'd be limited to nonmetal armor anyway. Would I really want Stone Plate? Maybe?
And as for the Big Hammer Build, Both Fighters and Psychic Warriors have the same Armor and Shield Proficiencies anyway. No problem.
I put together an Ankou Shadow Slayer gestalt with Arcanist, using a Split-Blade Sword, taking the Arcane Armor Training/Mastery feats, Armored Marauder/Swiftness Advanced Talents, and the entire Dimensional Savant chain to go with the Dimensional Slide Exploit.
There's another Slayer I got mostly done, this one is a Vangaurd gestalt with Instructor Wizard. She uses armor with no Arcane Spell Failure chance, and archery (Ranger Combat Style feats via Slayer) to stay out of melee. She is also a crafter and Tactician.
The Eldritch Scrapper/Snakebite Striker Brawler is fantastic with the Serpentine/Envenomed Bloodline. You get Martial Flexibility from the Sorcerer, making up for the Snakebite Striker giving up the Brawler's Martial Flexibility. You can get Skill Focus Bluff as a Bloodline Feat to go with the Snakebite Striker's feint stuffs. You can literally get a snake bite attack from the Bloodline Power, if you want it.
Combining Bolt Ace Gunslinger with Nature Fang Druid gets you Studied Target, Dex to damage with a 17-20/×4 pelletbow, Ranger Combat Style feats, an Animal Companion, Nimble, Grit... the list goes on and on.
I was/am unaware of the penalty of lesser proficencies.
That is because it does not exist: The original gesalt rules have no such restriction. You do still have things like Arcane Spell Failure and Druid's restrictions on metal armour so you may not be able to take full advantage of those proficiencies, but you have them.
No big. Not sure what the harsh was, but we all have those moments. Thanks for the clarification and link. My group plays a lot of gestalt, but that must have been a house rule or misread that the original guys who into'd it to us passed along. Aside from saving a couple of feats invested, I wonder how much more powerful this makes certain combos.
No big. Not sure what the harsh was, but we all have those moments. Thanks for the clarification and link. My group plays a lot of gestalt, but that must have been a house rule or misread that the original guys who into'd it to us passed along. Aside from saving a couple of feats invested, I wonder how much more powerful this makes certain combos.
I assumed as much (that it was a houserule that you either never knew was a houserule or had forgotten), but the way I originally phrased it could have been read as saying you were being deliberately deceptive. Which was very much not the intention, hence the edit. Anyway, it does bring up a good point: The way gestalt is presented is very much in a "guidelines for the GM" style, rather than tightly written rules, so it does invite houserules, or at least clarifications.
@OP, does your GM have a list of houserules/clarification for their particular vision of gestalt? That would be a useful thing to know about when advising you. For reference, this is what our group uses when doing gestalt:
Spoiler:
Gestalt characters qualify for the minimum 4+Int skill ranks per level only if the neither class is a 9-level Int-based caster. Out group uses a houserule giving every one except Int-based full caster get a minimum of 4 skill ranks per level. This clarifies how that applies in gestalt. Obviously not relevent if you do not have a similar houserule.
You take the best progression at any given number at any given level, not the best individual number. For example, a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19//Wizard 20 has a BAB of +10, not +20 (1 level of good BAB for +1 and 19 levels of poor BAB for +9).
Class abilities that stack between classes (such as Sneak Attack) are capped at the maximum effective levels equal to character level.
Each character has a specific pair of classes as their Favoured Class (the pair of classes taken at first level, unless nominated otherwise). Characters may take class-specific favoured class bonuses for either class.
Features (such as the Half-elf’s) that grant an additional Favoured Class instead grant a grant a second pair of classes. which may have a class in common with the main pair but is not required to.
Prestige classes have, as an additional prerequisite, the minimum level that a non-gestalt character could qualify for the class.
The default rules are that you cannot take prestige classes that advance more than one class at a time (like Mystic Theurge). Instead, you can still take them if there is a class feature you want, but you have to pick one class to advance not both.
Also, OP, what level are you starting at, and how long do you expect the game to progress?
So far, I'm thinking of a Half-Giant Psychic Warrior with Survival and Brawling Path with a 1 level Vitalist dip for Medic Powers and manifesting Vigor throughout your Collective or Hammer every round, as needed. Vigor adds 5 Temp HP per Manifestor Level and Half-Giant FCB is +1/2 ML on Path Powers. Your Path Powers with Survival and Brawling will be Hammer and Vigor, so you would have +1/2 your level as bonus ML for these powers, which is insanely good. Add Psigifted trait to Vigor probably. So level 10, this would be 16 ML with Vigor. So if you wanted, you could give your entire Collective 80 temp health per round.
With Half-giant, you can wield a weapon that is larger than you by one step with no penalties, and if you augment Expansion for 7pp, you can become Huge. So if I were you, I'd get a Greater Psicrystal Staff for 10,000gp and make it 1 size larger than you, and enchant it with Impact, then manifest Expansion and now you're using a Colossal-sized Quarterstaff at 4d6. You can deliver Touch Powers through your Psicrystal, which is docked on your Psicrystal Staff, so manifest Hammer and on yourself (and your Psicrystal via Share Powers) and start swinging for the fences.
Instead of a Psicrystal Staff, you can go with a Warblade Staff and have it be a Colossal-sized Bastard Sword, but Psicrystal Staff can use Companion Stones and a Warblade Staff cannot, but w/e choice you make will allow you to manifest Hammer through your weapon.
Maximizing Hammer use:
Hammer is a Touch Power that causes 1d8 damage + 1d8 per 2pp and/or 1 additional charge per 1pp when you augment it. So if you were lvl 10 with 16 ML's, you would probably want to augment this into 5d8 hammers with 7 charges for 16pp for max efficiency. This would be a good time to figure out whether you want to get Great Cleave or TWF (with Qstaff).
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Anywho, this is just Psychic Warrior. You would still have another class that will accent all of this really nicely. You could go Chaotic Surge Wilder for extra ML umph and lots of PP and near-god-like damage, Full Soulthief Vitalist, Slayer, w/e you want.
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Out of Combat Infinite PP trick from Psionics 3.5:
Step 1. Metapower, Linked Power, and any 1st level power. Use Metapower to permanently join Linked Power to your choice of self-targeting 1st level power. (Precognition is my personal favorite.) Now, every time you manifest Precognition (or whatever) + Link Power + Bestow Power, you pay 2 pp in turn 1 (1 for Precognition + 3 for Bestow Power -2 for Metapower), and regain those 2 pp in turn 2. A free 1st level power. (Requires two feats (Metapower, Linked Power) a 1st and 2nd level power and ML 3; possible by character level 3.)
Step 2. Get a Torc of Power Preservation for 36,000gp to reduce all PP costs by 1.
Now, we are paying 1 pp to manifest Precognition in turn 1 and getting back 2 pp in turn 2 when Bestow Power manifests.
This routine may only be done every third turn. The two intervening turns are required to regain the two foci. But what does it matter? There is no expiration on the pp granted. Instead of resting for 8 hours, our psionic spends 1 hour (600 rounds, so 200 iterations) playing this game and has 200 pp.
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Other Broken stuff from Psionics:
Vigor (Share Powers for free with Psicrystal) + Share Pain (w/ Psicrystal) = split dmg 50/50 with Psicrystal and both of you have Temp HP from Vigor to absorb it.
Remote Viewing + Retrieve = Interdimensional Carmen SanDiego
So far, I'm thinking of a Half-Giant Psychic Warrior
I had an idea kind of like that, too.
I thought CN Human was rule #1 for this build... otherwise I would have said to combine the pre-nerf Scarred Witch Doctor with a Kineticist, because Omnicide is just good, clean fun.
So far, I'm thinking of a Half-Giant Psychic Warrior
I had an idea kind of like that, too.
I thought CN Human was rule #1 for this build... otherwise I would have said to combine the pre-nerf Scarred Witch Doctor with a Kineticist, because Omnicide is just good, clean fun.
Pre-nerf! There's a thought. If he is allowed to use things that used to be legal but now aren't, he should get himself a Throwing Shield, a Blinkback Belt, and the Quickdraw Feat and do Infinity Damage!
So far, I'm thinking of a Half-Giant Psychic Warrior
I had an idea kind of like that, too.
I thought CN Human was rule #1 for this build... otherwise I would have said to combine the pre-nerf Scarred Witch Doctor with a Kineticist, because Omnicide is just good, clean fun.
I know he said Human for race, but if he wants to do PsyWar and break the game, Half-Giant is pretty much required.
Half Giant has oversized weapon and +2 Str/Wis, and an FCB of +1/2 ML on Path Powers <---- and THIS is the main reason to go Half-Giant. That other stuff is icing on the cake. Because you can go Brawler and Survival path, and essentially have +50% of your level as a bonus on ML to Hammer and Vigor. And with a Psicrystal Staff or Warblade, you can manifest Hammer on your weapon like a Magus using Shocking Grasp. Also, with the level 6 Martial Power ability, you can cast your Path Powers once per round when you make an attack. So the Hammers and Vigors never stop until you're out of PP. And with 1 lvl dip in Vitalist, your +50% ML Vigors go to everyone in the group. Your group is now unkillable HP-wise while you have PP. And with that Infinite PP trick, you should be full PP for every fight (in theory).
Broken. The only way to kill the group is with Death spells. Because even if your DM eats through the massive amount of Temp HP you can put out every round, you can manifest one healing spell for 1pp, and Triage heal your entire group via Collective Healing.
This is also not considering a 2nd class for the Gestalt :P
I would probably just use Vitalist as the other half of the gestalt, instead of dipping. Sure, you only end up 3/4 BAB, and only two good saves... but you get the Vitalist's number of Power Points Per Day and Maximum Power Level Known progression, with the Psychic Warrior's number of Powers Known, combining the Psychic Warrior and Vitalist Power Lists.
Now if we do a Chaotic Surge Wilder as 2nd class, we can start increasing ML's even higher. And with Psionics Augmented: Wilder you can start using your Psychic Enervation as a weapon against enemies with the Vent Agony feat. You can also make a willing member of your Collective absorb your Psychic Enervation with the feat Pain Bonding.
Astral Constructs have a Wis score, so you could summon an Astral Construct, join it to your Collective, and use Vent Agony to make enemies take your PE and then not suffer your PE yourself by making your Astral Construct suffer it for you. You can pick up Astral Construct with the Expanded Knowledge feat as early as lvl 5ish. Astral Construct is insanely good with Augment options, so this is by no means a wasted feat, but if you really don't want to summon things, then head to Ye Olde Tavern and get a hireling for your Pain Bonding target.
Chaotic Surge Wilders cause Daze effects on their PE, so that's a nifty debuff to afflict your enemies with.
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Just to give you an idea of what that would look like at lvl 11:
At level 11, you get Surge +4. You can pick up a Surge Crystal +2 for 30,000gp by then, so your Surge should be +6.
With a 1 Dip in Vitalist and 10 levels of PsyWar, and the trait Psigifted: Vigor, you'd have a 17ML for manifesting Vigor and a 16ML for manifesting Hammer and an 11ML for manifesting everything else.
Chaotic Surge causes a -6 ML on 1, +6 ML on 2 or 3, or +12 ML on a 4 for the 1d4 roll.
So manifesting Vigor, 11ML = 55 Temp HP, 23ML = 115 Temp HP, or 29ML = 145 Temp HP. That's Temp HP to your entire Collective, including your Psicrystal. That would cost you 17pp to manifest.
You would also have a 16ML for Hammer at this level, so this would cost your 16pp to manifest. So that's 10ML on a 1 roll, 22ML on a 2 or 3 roll, or 28ML on a 4 roll for your 1d4 Chaotic Surge roll.
You can break this up into any amount of damage and/or charges as you want. So lets say you rolled a 4 on the 1d4 for Chaotic Surge, that's 28 ML. You could go 14d8 for 2 charges, 13d8 for 4 charges, 12d8 for 6 charges, 11d8 for 8 charges, etc. Hammer gets manifested on both you AND your Psicrystal, and you can use your Psicrystal as your weapon with a Psicrystal Staff (Greater) or a Warblade Staff.
Bonus points if you Empower and/or Maximize your Hammer. If you somehow fit Improved Vital Strike, Great Cleave, and Cleaving Smash into your build, just start the campaign over, you win.
I would probably just use Vitalist as the other half of the gestalt, instead of dipping. Sure, you only end up 3/4 BAB, and only two good saves... but you get the Vitalist's number of Power Points Per Day and Maximum Power Level Known progression, with the Psychic Warrior's number of Powers Known, combining the Psychic Warrior and Vitalist Power Lists.
Your Fort and Will Saves are bonkers with the Mettle and Imp Mettle from the Survivor Path from PsyWar.
Psychic Warrior Survivor Path wrote:
Survivor Path
You are capable of surviving in harsh environments and enduring deadly assaults. You recognize the power of he body’s ability to overcome even the most deadly of afflictions.
Powers: catfall, vigor
Skills: Autohypnosis, Heal, Survival
Bonus class skill: Survival
Trance: Beginning at 3rd level, while maintaining psionic focus, you gain DR 2/-. This damage reduction improves by 1 evey four psychic warrior levels thereafter. In addition, you suffer no harm from being in a hot or cold environment. You can exist comfortably in conditions between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit without having to make Fortitude saves. Your equipment is likewise protected. This doesn’t provide any protection from fire or cold damage, nor does it protect against other environmental hazards such as smoke, lack of air, and so forth.
Maneuver: Beginning at 3rd level, you can expend your psionic focus as an immediate action to be treated as having the Mettle ability until the beginning of your next turn. At 7th level and every four psychic warrior levels beyond, you gain a +1 competence bonus to Will saves when using this maneuver. In addition, at 11th level, when using this maneuver, you are treated as having the Improved Mettle ability.
Mettle and Improved Mettle
Mettle (Ex): You are able to resist effects with great willpower of fortitude. If you succeed on a Fortitude or Will save against an effect with a partial effect on a successful save, you instead suffer no effects from the attack.
Improved Mettle (Ex): You are incredibly resistant to effects that assault the body or mind. If you succeed on a Fortitude or Will save against an effect with a partial effect on a successful save, you instead suffer no effects from the attack. If you fail the save, you instead suffer the partial effect.
Also, pick up these powers for maxing out your saves to redonk amounts.
Display Material and visual
Manifesting Time 1 standard action; see text
EFFECT
Range Personal
Target You
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Power Points 1
DESCRIPTION
Your awareness extends a fraction of a second into the future, allowing you to better evade an opponent’s blows. You gain a +1 insight bonus to AC and on all saving throws. If caught in a situation where your Dexterity bonus isn’t applied to your Armor Class, this bonus to AC and saving throws does not apply.
Augment You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways.
1. For every 3 additional power points you spend, the insight bonus gained increases by 1.
2. If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action.
Display Visual; see text
Manifesting Time 1 standard action
EFFECT
Range Personal
Target You
Duration 1 hour/level (D)
Power Points 1
DESCRIPTION
Your mind generates a tangible field of force that provides a +4 armor bonus to Armor Class. Unlike mundane armor, inertial armor entails no armor check penalty or speed reduction. Because inertial armor is composed of psychokinetic force, incorporeal creatures can’t bypass it the way they do normal armor. Your inertial armor can be invisible or can appear as a colored glow, at your option. The armor bonus provided by inertial armor does not stack with the armor bonus provided by regular armor.
Augment For every 2 additional power points you spend, the armor bonus to Armor Class increases by 1.
Display Auditory
Manifesting Time 1 standard action
EFFECT
Range Personal
Target You
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Power Points 1
DESCRIPTION
You create an invisible mobile disk of force that hovers in front of you. The force screen provides a +4 shield bonus to Armor Class (which applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since the force screen is a force effect). Since it hovers in front of you, the effect has no armor check penalty associated with it.
Augment For every 4 additional power points you spend, the shield bonus to Armor Class improves by 1.
Personally, I don't recommend wasting a Power selection on Force Screen, because the augment options suck, but it's still really good as a base power. So pick up a Dorje (wand) or a Power Stone (scroll) of Force Screen and use it for BBEG fights or as needed.
Pro Tip for playing Chaotic Wilder: Whenever you're not on the clock and you're doing out-of-combat manifesting, you can maximize your chances to get a 4 on your 1d4 and minimize the impact of 1 rolls by doing a simple calculation. If you roll a 1 on your 1d4 for Chaotic Surge, your ML is reduced by whatever your Surge is. So if you're level 11, your Surge is +4, and you'll probably have a +2 Surge Crystal by then, so your Surge is actually a +6. So, if you invest 5pp into manifesting/augmenting a buff power, like Inertial Armor, and you roll a 1 on your 1d4, the power will fail, but you're not charged any PP because the ML becomes a negative number. So keep re-manifesting it until you get a 2, 3, or 4 on your 1d4 roll. And then continue this for all of your buffing powers like Defensive Pre-cog, Fortify, Offensive Precog, etc. Now you've only invested 5pp per buff, and you've used Surge +6ML or +12ML on each one of them without costing you PP for a 1 roll on the 1d4.
