I'm of the opinion that undead who have minds don't receive biological feedback, which is a big source of emotions, and that most of their 'emotional responses' are actually just them reacting to visual stimuli with their minds in a way similar to muscle memory (kind of like how a lot still perform the action of breathing for a while).
A player in my group is trying to argue that anything with a mind is fully capable of real emotions, and that biology doesn't matter at all.
I've ruled that the mind is tied to the soul, hence soul trapping, soul-swapping etc and as a result they remember emotions and react to stimuli in a way based on habit more than anything, or with responses based around accomplishing what they want. Basically, that they aren't feeling emotions, they're actually just reacting as they would as a trained response.
I've tried to compare this to works in which vampires become progressively more jaded as those memories fade (or they can't be bothered pretending anymore).
I've also ruled that ghosts are manifested based on their last experience and they're exempt to the general logic.
When specifically discussing vampires I've described the thirst and sating it as the only thing close to emotions they feel, and the rest of their emotional displays are them mimicking the living to put forth impressions, through force-of-habit or to accomplish goals. Baring teeth and hissing to scare people is effective, whether you're mad or not.
The hardest part was trying to explain to her that vampires and other intelligent undead that used to be mortal typically see their existence as a curse, that they're numb to the world around them beyond supernatural responses such as the thirst or being held at bay, and only continue lingering due to having self-preservation.
I'm interesting in others' opinions. What are your thoughts on undead and emotions?
Given the number of angry vampires I have seen in movies over the years, I think undead are definitely capable of emotions. However, their condition almost certainly makes them more open to unpleasant emotions than to pleasant ones, as it is rare to see happy undead.
Vampires especially (but not exclusively) have some wildly different interpretations to the OP in film and books and even other RPGs. If this is the truth in your game that's how it is, but it obviously leaves some people feeling off.
In PF there's at the very least feelings of hate & hostility which often seem to be different from anything present when the creature was alive. Explaining them as a habit hanging over from life seems difficult.
Hatred is an emotion. Most of the time the first thing in the description of an undead, is what they hate. Most of the time that is something like the living or light. Often the thing that turns them into undead is their hatred or desire for revenge. What about other creatures that do not have a biological existence? Elementals are composed of the element they are associated with. Does that mean they also do not have emotions? Your theory seems to be full of flaws.
I've already mentioned the supernatural effects such as holding at bay being impressed upon them.
Also, their inability to ever benefit or suffer from any morale effects seems to imply they don't have emotional responses to stimuli.
Undead are not just immune to morale effects, they are immune to all mind-affecting effects. If you are using that as a basis of being unable to feel emotion, than they also should not be able to think. Since intelligent undead exist this is obviously not true.
The reason undead are immune to mind-affecting effects is not that they don’t have a mind. Instead it is because what gives the energy that gives animates them is completely different than what animates a living being. In fact undead are actually not immune to all mind-affecting effects, they are just immune to most of them. There are two ways that an undead can be affected by a mind-affecting effect. The first is the bloodline arcane for an undead bloodline sorcerer. The second is the meta magic feat Threnodic Spell. Both of these will allow an undead to be affected by any mind-affecting spell including those with the emotion descriptor.
The fact that my undead bloodline sorcerer can affect a vampire with crushing despair seems to disprove your theory that undead do not experience emotion.
There are other beings in the Golarion universe that do not have biology yet have emotions. How do you integrate those in your model?
Undead are not just immune to morale effects, they are immune to all mind-affecting effects. If you are using that as a basis of being unable to feel emotion, than they also should not be able to think. Since intelligent undead exist this is obviously not true.
The reason undead are immune to mind-affecting effects is not that they don’t have a mind. Instead it is because what gives the energy that gives animates them is completely different than what animates a living being. In fact undead are actually not immune to all mind-affecting effects, they are just immune to most of them. There are two ways that an undead can be affected by a mind-affecting effect. The first is the bloodline arcane for an undead bloodline sorcerer. The second is the meta magic feat Threnodic Spell. Both of these will allow an undead to be affected by any mind-affecting spell including those with the emotion descriptor.
The fact that my undead bloodline sorcerer can affect a vampire with crushing despair seems to disprove your theory that undead do not experience emotion.
There are other beings in the Golarion universe that do not have biology yet have emotions. How do you integrate those in your model?
Keep in mind my concepts were developed to try and have consistency at a table, not as some sort of attempt to be an aficionado on the subject or to suppress creativity. Here are some of my thoughts and speculations, and I am keen to hear input or opinions of others.
I've often tied mind to soul in a fashion, and responses to mind. With mind tied to soul I have described that the ability to affect the mind is more about targeting a vessel (hence being unable to target souls and soul gems with mind-affecting) to deliver the effect, and certain delivery methods deal with it.
A creature with a mind is able to remember its past and have its typical responses, reacting to stimuli similar to emotions. It can even somewhat appear to the creature to be dulled emotion, but the source of what developed the habits isn't there.
Certain constructs which are gifted minds which never possessed bodies have no basis for emotional responses, and indeed respond as automatons without even an echo of such a past. Some particularly advanced artificial minds or constructs are developed to mimic the world around them or understand that being accepted will improve their station or ability to function, so they learn to mimic these responses to stimuli they see in creatures (but usually have something off about them).
Indeed in the case of intelligent undead who have either become hyper-jaded or never had an emotional foundation such as this, they might work towards such simulation for similar reasons.
Certain undead created by a supernatural response to a moment of great drive in life have the activities and mannerisms they were manifested by as core to their being, which can include hunger as well as emotion. Note that these undead typically have two responses to stimuli that should produce a different emotional response:
A) They ignore it and continue with their manifested faux emotions to cause their havoc or persist on the plane.
B) They are calmed in a way similar to a haunt, so they are disjointed from their existence and pass on.
Undead which were once living, such as vampires, begin their existing faking breath, smiling, and being even akin to depressed at their physical and emotional numbness due to the ceased biological functions and the negative energy circuit in their bodies. As they grow older and no longer either care nor habitually perform these actions, they need to basically put them on as a show for others to manipulate them and might be old enough to have no urge to perform them whatsoever.
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Just popping in to say:
"Undead, not Unperson."
-TNG
It's definitely a valiant attempt to justify why all undead are immune to mind-affecting effects. Zombies can't be scared, sure. But you can't charm a lich? It certainly doesn't make sense at first glance.
...which is why I houseruled that intelligent things can be affected by charms and fear and all that stuff. It's just easier to wrap my head around and tell stories with.
Plus, if you want to try and cast Charm Person on that lvl16 undead wizard...I mean. Sure, go for it.
I'm interested in the balance perspective of just making Intelligent undead have emotions, but removing blanket mind-affecting immunity. How would that work out? Do any of you have experience with it?
Vhok I did have a question, about whether or not there are sources in the game that show undead as a general rule can have emotions in spite of being immune to morale effects / mind-affecting.
Azothath that emotion auras link was interesting. I might have to dig my book up and read over it.
By this same logic, Paladins can't feel fear at all - even mundane fear, anxiety and concern. Creatures immune to pain basically suffer from constant injuries as they're unaware of the damage.
As and yes, the undead immunities in PF1e are pretty impressive, but here at TNG we always advocate for our kin.
I'm interested in the balance perspective of just making Intelligent undead have emotions, but removing blanket mind-affecting immunity. How would that work out? Do any of you have experience with it?
As I said above, that's how I houserule it. It hasn't really made much of a difference. Undead often have high Will saves, come in large numbers or strike from ambush. Or a combination thereof.
There are little moments that have just been pure awesome, though. The humble salt-of-the-earth fighter defying the thousand year-old lich, rolling great on his Intimidate and convincing the undead mage that maybe--just maybe--everything hasn't gone according to plan. Could he have spent the last three hundred years of plotting only to end up dust at the hands of this simple, honest man?Or the bard who reaches out to the vampire lord and, just for a second, stirs in him memories of his knighthood, of his honor and his code.
There are little moments that have just been pure awesome, though. The humble salt-of-the-earth fighter defying the thousand year-old lich, rolling great on his Intimidate and convincing the undead mage that maybe--just maybe--everything hasn't gone according to plan. Could he have spent the last three hundred years of plotting only to end up dust at the hands of this simple, honest man?
Or the bard who reaches out to the vampire lord and, just for a second, stirs in him memories of his knighthood, of his honor and his code.
Well then....
In our adventuring group, we leaned heavily towards Sarenrae, the rogue and the barbarian revered her, I myself played a cleric of the Dawnflower and we also had among us a paladin of Sarenrae, who happened to belong to the order from which hailed the paladin who never returned. Only the druid and the inquisitor favoured other deities, respectively Gozreh and Abadar. As such, religious matters were important to our group and we supported each other in faith, whether we prayed to the same or not.
Our inquisitor, having asked our help to track fiscal fraudsters down, found a trail that led us to this oasis. There, atop a small promontory, in a derelict mosque, we did find the remains of the paladin and the partly-collapsed roof was letting in a ray of sunlight that fell on the holy sword that was planted in the middle of the prayer room, illuminating it with blessed serenity. What we didn't know was that the corruption of the place had the once-holy warrior fall to it herself, turning into a spiteful specter that haunted the mosque and reviled us for we still walked with Sarenrae. It snaked in the air around our group, carefully avoiding where the roof had given in. We felt it peering into us, finding us weak and seemed ready to launch the full of its foul powers at us when I intervened. Calling upon the Dawnflower to help my words reach the tormented soul, I begged the fallen paladin to let us give her peaceful rest. For an instant that seemed to last an eternity, not even the dust in the sunbeam moved, everything stood still, suspended, in the half-shade of the late afternoon Sun.
Undead are wired different. Their immunity to mind affecting effects I feel is more a result of them simply not having the same biology as the normal intended targets of such effects.
I like to think of intelligent undead as incredibly complex machines. Facsimiles of life, they are not exactly the person they were in life or even the same person truly. That person died and their soul was released. What remains in the undead is a snapshot copy of the soul twisted by the magic that animates it. Intelligent Undead understand, perhaps even feel some emotions, but their metaphysically stagnate nature prevents them from being manipulated in such a way unless through specialized means(I.E Threnodic Spell or Undead Bloodline).