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Worn:
- the item is stored in a bandolier, belt pouch, or some other easily accessible
container
- it takes 1 interact action to move a worn item to a hand item
Stowed:
- the item is stored in a backpack or knapsack or similarly worn container. they
are not so easily accessible.
- it takes 2 interact actions to move the item from stowed to held: 1 interact action to take the stowing container off and 1 interact action to retrieve the item from the container.
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So as an example, your typical 10 Str character can wear Healer's Tools (1 Bulk), 4 Bulk of items, and have 2 Bulk in their Backpack, and still not be Encumbered.
If they needed to carry away their unconscious, medium sized companion (6 Bulk), they could drop those Healer's Tools and carry their friend to safety.
EDIT: Sorry, you ninja'd me by 43 seconds.
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How about wearing potions? How much worn potions can I carry in order to draw it quickly.Up to 2 of that can be worn Tools (unless you're wearing Fine Clothing, which only allows L Bulk of Tools).
And then however much your containers can stow (such as 2 for a basic Backpack).
What's your Strength score?
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How about wearing potions? How much worn potions can I carry in order to draw it quickly.Up to 2 of that can be worn Tools (unless you're wearing Fine Clothing, which only allows L Bulk of Tools).
And then however much your containers can stow (such as 2 for a basic Backpack).
your Strength Mod + 10 (or Strength Mod + 5 if you don't want to be encumbered) times 10 potions.
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Jokes aside, HERE is a more realistic depiction of what that might look like.
Remember, it's assumed that you have enough pockets, pouches, sheathes, bandoliers et cetera to carry your worn items in.
There's mechanically no difference between a character wearing 5 Bulk of potions vs 5 Bulk of weapons.
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So it means I can "wear" all the potions instead of "stow" them in backpack, and I can draw them without spending a separate Interact to take off my backpack.your Strength Mod + 10 (or Strength Mod + 5 if you don't want to be encumbered) times 10 potions.How about wearing potions? How much worn potions can I carry in order to draw it quickly.Up to 2 of that can be worn Tools (unless you're wearing Fine Clothing, which only allows L Bulk of Tools).
And then however much your containers can stow (such as 2 for a basic Backpack).
Yes, that is correct.
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Yes, that is correct.So it means I can "wear" all the potions instead of "stow" them in backpack, and I can draw them without spending a separate Interact to take off my backpack.your Strength Mod + 10 (or Strength Mod + 5 if you don't want to be encumbered) times 10 potions.How about wearing potions? How much worn potions can I carry in order to draw it quickly.Up to 2 of that can be worn Tools (unless you're wearing Fine Clothing, which only allows L Bulk of Tools).
And then however much your containers can stow (such as 2 for a basic Backpack).
The ONLY reason to stow items is to get the 2 bulk reduction from containers like a backpack. [or you've exceeded your worn tool limit]
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Stowing items can impart up to a –5 penalty on Steal attempts, as well.
In fact, humorously, Steal is a single action, and specifically mentions the ability to Steal from a "large pack".
If it didn't stipulate "another creature", I could see players trying to Steal from themselves just for the action economy.
Stowing items can impart up to a –5 penalty on Steal attempts, as well.
Well I was talking in terms of carrying. If we expand it to other things, there is the fact that it's outside line of effect/sight.
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And after removing all the container from page 286 to 292, how can I determine how many consumables I can worn?
Lots and lots and lots, since consumables tend to be Light bulk.
On errata it shows I can worn 2 Bulks of tools, is this including consumables?
No, just tools. It makes it hard to have both a medicine, craft and thieves toolkit at the same time. But the limit is only on tools, not other things. You can have lots of other things, depending on your strength.
And after removing all the container from page 286 to 292, how can I determine how many consumables I can worn?Lots and lots and lots, since consumables tend to be Light bulk.
On errata it shows I can worn 2 Bulks of tools, is this including consumables?
No, just tools. It makes it hard to have both a medicine, craft and thieves toolkit at the same time. But the limit is only on tools, not other things. You can have lots of other things, depending on your strength.
And woe betide the alchemist who's invited to the royal ball. 'Sorry, Alsatia, I know alchemist's fire eventually does go with everything, but even that level one bomb is probably going to wipe out half the nobility if you combine it with that gown!'
I can imagine some GMs calling for potions et al to be 'tools' for this purpose. Then again I also remember some shenanigans trying to keep potions in drawing reach for my 1e barbarian (you never know when some evil wizard will cast Dispel Magic). This might be just a way to avoid arguing over Where Exactly You Have That Potion in the middle of a fight scene.
And woe betide the alchemist who's invited to the royal ball.
I think the bigger issue with that alchemist is that with Fine clothing "You can wear only one tool set of light Bulk" so no Alchemist's Tools can be worn.
PS: An interesting side note is that High-Fashion Fine clothes do NOT have a smaller limit for worn tools for some reason, so if you can afford them, you are good to go for wearing tools to the ball. ;)
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PS: An interesting side note is that High-Fashion Fine clothes do NOT have a smaller limit for worn tools for some reason, so if you can afford them, you are good to go for wearing tools to the ball. ;)
IRL, I have chandelier earrings that are actually lock picks. Very few people notice.
And woe betide the alchemist who's invited to the royal ball.I think the bigger issue with that alchemist is that with Fine clothing "You can wear only one tool set of light Bulk" so no Alchemist's Tools can be worn.
PS: An interesting side note is that High-Fashion Fine clothes do NOT have a smaller limit for worn tools for some reason, so if you can afford them, you are good to go for wearing tools to the ball. ;)
..yes, that was the point of the line, Graystone.
I do imagine that high-fashion fine clothes don't have that limit, although I'm imagining outfits elaborate enough they just have enough material that you could smuggle enough tools to perform a four-tyre pit stop. Granted, you may want to be careful of high-fashion Fine clothes from Madame de France, despite how it looks like you can fit two or even three bulk in their line. (Yes, I capitalised Fine for a reason.)
All jokes aside, there is no hard limit on the number of worn items you can have, up to your total bulk limits.
It's up to you and your DM to establish acceptable limits, if you're in some RP situation where the appearance of your clothes is important.
Otherwise the assumption is that you have enough pockets, belt pouches, bandoliers and so on to strap on all the potions, scrolls, daggers and other knick-knacks you want to have "worn". Up to your STR-based bulk limits.
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Easy fix for anyone, get Sleeves of Storage. Each sleeve is an additional 5 bulk, and it only takes an interact action to draw anything from it. Plus you can easily wear it into a fancy dinner party without raising suspicion.
Still won't help with tools though.
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PS: An interesting side note is that High-Fashion Fine clothes do NOT have a smaller limit for worn tools for some reason, so if you can afford them, you are good to go for wearing tools to the ball. ;)IRL, I have chandelier earrings that are actually lock picks. Very few people notice.
Got a source for that?
Last I checked, high-fashion fine clothes were fine clothes. It's literally in the name.
What you're doing is kind of like saying a Jeep Cherokee is not a Jeep.
PS: An interesting side note is that High-Fashion Fine clothes do NOT have a smaller limit for worn tools for some reason, so if you can afford them, you are good to go for wearing tools to the ball. ;)IRL, I have chandelier earrings that are actually lock picks. Very few people notice.
Got a source for that?
Last I checked, high-fashion fine clothes were fine clothes. It's literally in the name.
What you're doing is kind of like saying a Jeep Cherokee is not a Jeep.
That's kind of like arguing that a rule for Crossbows should automatically apply to Hand Crossbows and Heavy Crossbows, cuz they are all Crossbows. For instance, do you allow Wizards to have Trained in Hand Crossbows because it lists that they are Trained in Crossbows? I mean, "It's literally in the name"... P
I could make similar comparisons to daggers and clan daggers or studded leather armor and leather armor. As far as a source, I have the errata on the FAQ page: It alters ONLY the Fine Clothes. There is also the official online resource, archives of nethys, that ONLY lists the restriction under Fine clothes. If only the game had some kind of system that could add tags to things that had something in common so we could know when rules applied to all of them like Splash weapons or Evocation spells. ;)
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PS: An interesting side note is that High-Fashion Fine clothes do NOT have a smaller limit for worn tools for some reason, so if you can afford them, you are good to go for wearing tools to the ball. ;)IRL, I have chandelier earrings that are actually lock picks. Very few people notice.
Well, thieves' tools *are* Light bulk anyway (so are 'replacement picks')..
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Hey everyone, please turn to page 290 in the core rulebook, and make sure it's the most up to date one. The first paragraph on that page is where it describes Fine clothing. In that same paragraph it mentions that you get the item bonus for high-fashion fine clothing. This leads me to believe that they are the same "item" but with a +1 item bonus. If it were a separate paragraph I would be more inclined to agree that it's different and has different rules. This is similar to an advanced toolkit, where it functions the same as the standard tools but has a +1 item bonus on them.
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Hey everyone, please turn to page 290 in the core rulebook, and make sure it's the most up to date one. The first paragraph on that page is where it describes Fine clothing. In that same paragraph it mentions that you get the item bonus for high-fashion fine clothing. This leads me to believe that they are the same "item" but with a +1 item bonus. If it were a separate paragraph I would be more inclined to agree that it's different and has different rules. This is similar to an advanced toolkit, where it functions the same as the standard tools but has a +1 item bonus on them.
Myself, I'm going by the errata and the official online resource. It should be as valid as the core.
I don't see how this makes any difference even if you could prove this: There are clear rule differences between the two so why couldn't there be a difference that high-fashion ones don't have the limitations of the base fine. As such, there would have to be some CLEAR proviso that all fine rules extend to high-fashion ones. Without that, they are 2 different items.
It would be different if we had a standard word used for improved versions of items: sometimes it's Climbing Kit (Extreme) or Book of Translation (Advanced) or Thieves' Tools (Infiltrator) or Snare Kit (Specialist) or Alchemist's Lab (Expanded) or Musical Instrument (Virtuoso) or Artisan's Tools (Sterling) or Repair Kit (Superb) or Crowbar (Levered) or Fishing Tackle (Professional) or Compass (Lensatic)... WHY can't we have a common term like we have for Traits that indicates a superior version instead of going out of it's way to use a different word for EVERY item. :P
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The Errata don't call out this particular change.
The paragraph has shifted from page 289 in the first printing of the CRB to the top of page 290 in the updated PDF.
Fine clothing, suitable for a noble or royal, is made with expensive fabrics, precious metals, and intricate patterns. You can wear only one tool set of light Bulk with fine clothing, instead of the normal limit of 2 Bulk. You gain a +1 item bonus to checks to Make an Impression on upper‑class folk while wearing high-fashion fine clothing.
The italicized sentence is newly added. 1st printing only has the first sentence and the last sentence.
The Errata don't call out this particular change.
I'm aware of what's in the CRB and on Archives of nethys when I made my last post... Clothing is in one big 'clothing' section/category/entry. Nothing in what you italicized alters what I said and just reiterates what was in the errata on the FAQ page: it in no way say it changes anything for high-fashion fine clothing as written/presented.
If they wished to make it to include high-fashion fine clothing, they could change the last line to "You gain a +1 item bonus to checks to Make an Impression on upper‑class folk while wearing fine clothing that are high-fashion." Simple, easy and makes it clear that they aren't different for the new rules. Indenting High-fashion fine under Fine on the equipment list would help do that too: all improved versions should be that way though it's hit or miss on execution.
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Archives are maintained by five people, who sometimes make mistakes. The most official source is always the core rulebook. In the book, it makes no differentiation between the two versions like it does on AON. This is the exact same formatting as with all the tools in the book, so why should it be different in this case, and not all of them?
Healer’s Tools: This kit of bandages, herbs, and suturing tools is necessary for Medicine checks to Administer First Aid, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, or Treat Wounds. Expanded healer’s tools provide a +1 item bonus to such checks. If you wear your healer’s tools, you can draw and replace them as part of the action that uses them.
The way AoN is breaking it down is first by the actual "item" it is, in this case clothing, then by the subtypes of items. The only problem is they only put the specific rules of high-fashion fine clothing under their entry, not the general rule about the multiple types of it.
Archives are maintained by five people, who sometimes make mistakes. The most official source is always the core rulebook. In the book, it makes no differentiation between the two versions like it does on AON. This is the exact same formatting as with all the tools in the book, so why should it be different in this case, and not all of them?
** spoiler omitted **The way AoN is breaking it down is first by the actual "item" it is, in this case clothing, then by the subtypes of items. The only problem is they only put the specific rules of high-fashion fine clothing under their entry, not the general rule about the multiple types of it.
You clearly did NOT read my post. I stated "I'm aware of what's in the CRB and on Archives of nethys when I made my last post." So repeating what the CRB say is, well repeating WHAT I ALREADY KNOW.
The CRB didn't, IMO, alter my opinion as we have a specific rule that only applied to a particular item: fine clothes. The formatting IS different: Specific items are bolded with improved versions included in its block and the table shows the improved version indented. Also, you'll note in your healer's tools example that special rules that apply to base and improved versions of it are placed AFTER the improved version: if this was done, I might agree with you but it's another example of different formatting.
As to AoN's entry, IMO it's 100% correct in that the errata changes didn't alter the high-fashion clothes.
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As amusing as it is to imagine someone sneaking a sledgehammer in their ballgown, I'd say the common language reading plus the 'too good to be true' principle will say that high-fashion fine clothes are fine clothes and therefore limited.
I'm pretty sure I read the second one somewhere in the core rulebook but I forgot where.
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You can't Conceal a sledgehammer regardless. Doesn't matter what you're wearing.
Wearing items doesn't mean they're concealed. In fact, as I mentioned earlier, worn items are susceptible to being stolen.
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High-fashion Fine (level 3), listed in table 6-9, is a subset of Clothing and a subset of Fine. The rules, as errata, that apply to Fine also apply to High-fashion Fine (level 3).
Do what you wish, but as GM, I will not allow someone with High-Fashion Fine clothes to have more than light bulk on their person.
Cutting the reading of the those two items so thin is just gaming the system to gain an advance.
High-fashion Fine (level 3), listed in table 6-9, is a subset of Clothing and a subset of Fine.
This is the issue as it does NOT show that it is indeed a subset of fine: it's not indented on the chart as other subsets are. It's listed AFTER special rules for what you are calling the base item, which deviates from formatting. It's further muddied by not bolding base items and making them all a subset.
Do what you wish, but as GM, I will not allow someone with High-Fashion Fine clothes to have more than light bulk on their person.
WOW, that's not in the rules for fine clothes: it's worn TOOLS that are ready to be used. You could wear 9 BULK of items in your fine clothed if you wished.
As amusing as it is to imagine someone sneaking a sledgehammer in their ballgown, I'd say the common language reading plus the 'too good to be true' principle will say that high-fashion fine clothes are fine clothes and therefore limited.
As pointed out above, if you follow that kind of common place reading, you end up with wizards being able to wield hand crossbows because they get proficiency in crossbows... In a game with tags and reused words [like level], you can't rely on common usage to pick out a word from something and link it to something else.
Second, as to "too good", it's not like there aren't items that where the higher level and more costly items don't have the same limitations: Take an Astrolabe that requires steady ground and an Astrolabe (mariner) doesn't have that limitation. With costs for a +1 skill all over the place, what GP value do you attach to removing a limitation to overcome what you say is too good?
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Do what you wish, but as GM, I will not allow someone with High-Fashion Fine clothes to have more than light bulk on their person.WOW, that's not in the rules for fine clothes: it's worn TOOLS that are ready to be used. You could wear 9 BULK of items in your fine clothed if you wished.
Opps. My Statement was wrong. Was talking about Tools. Thank you for being so kind and gentle in pointing out my mistake.
Fine clothes bring no advantage and a limit on worn items.
It has advantages as it's the assumed clothes when mingling with or pretending to be a noble or royal. Without such, I'd expect circumstance penalties for actions. So they are important in Impersonate, Lie, Make an Impression, Request, Gather Information, Changing Attitudes. It's the equivalent of having the correct tool vs shoddy ones for those skills when being a noble/royal matters.
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Fine clothes bring no advantage and a limit on worn items.It has advantages as it's the assumed clothes when mingling with or pretending to be a noble or royal. Without such, I'd expect circumstance penalties for actions. So they are important in Impersonate, Lie, Make an Impression, Request, Gather Information, Changing Attitudes. It's the equivalent of having the correct tool vs shoddy ones for those skills when being a noble/royal matters.
That is houseruling it though ;-)
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That is houseruling it though ;-)Fine clothes bring no advantage and a limit on worn items.It has advantages as it's the assumed clothes when mingling with or pretending to be a noble or royal. Without such, I'd expect circumstance penalties for actions. So they are important in Impersonate, Lie, Make an Impression, Request, Gather Information, Changing Attitudes. It's the equivalent of having the correct tool vs shoddy ones for those skills when being a noble/royal matters.
How is that houseruling? You'd allow someone in rags to impersonate a noble without a penalty? Special Circumstances talks about apply a circumstance bonus or penalty when a task should be harder or easier than the base DC: wearing peasant garb to the princesses birthday party seems to me a PERFECT fit for that circumstance penalty.
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Even more dreaded logic
Table 6-9 has an entry for "Clothing" with five sub-entries under it:
Ordinary, Explorer's, Fine, High-fashion fine (level 3), Winter.
The text that describes the Clothing entries has four paragraphs describing those entries
Ordinary clothing is ....
Explorer's clothing is ....
Fine clothing, suitable for a noble or royal, is...
Winter clothing allows......
There is not a separate descriptive paragraph for 'high-fashion fine' clothing. It is, instead, included in the paragraph about Fine clothing.
There is then, just a single paragraph for 'fine' clothing, and having the adjective 'high fashion' in front of 'fine' doesn't warrant a full paragraph of its own. It's simply a subset of 'fine' clothing.
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I wish I could see what you're talking about, but unfortunately I get the ysoki error page when I try to see the errata.
Try a different browser. For me, it's always an error on Chrome but not on Firefox.
You can also download the errattaed PDF of the Core Rulebook, and look at page 290 for the info on Fine Clothing.On that topic, here's the block of text talking about Fine Clothing:
Fine clothing, suitable for a noble or royal, is made with expensive fabrics, precious metals, and intricate patterns. You can wear only one tool set of light Bulk with fine clothing, instead of the normal limit of 2 Bulk. You gain a +1 item bonus to checks to Make an Impression on upper‑class folk while wearing high-fashion fine clothing.And here's the block of text talking about the Healer's Tools:
This kit of bandages, herbs, and suturing tools is necessary for Medicine checks to Administer First Aid, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, or Treat Wounds. Expanded healer’s tools provide a +1 item bonus to such checks. If you wear your healer’s tools, you can draw and replace them as part of the action that uses them.And a Repair Kit:
A repair kit allows you to perform simple repairs while traveling. It contains a portable anvil, tongs, woodworking tools, a whetstone, and oils for conditioning leather and wood. You can use a repair kit to Repair items using the Crafting skill. A superb repair kit gives you a +1 item bonus to the check. You can draw and replace a worn repair kit as part of the action that uses it.
As you can see, they are all formatted the same way. Why are you insisting that High-Fashion Fine Clothes aren't just Fine Clothes with an item bonus?