Okay . . . . . so I really stink at subject lines.
For the TL/DR crowd: Any advice on how to build a strong-man, earth elemental magic using character, with a tiger motif, and a penchant for using stupidly big hammers?
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For the rest of you with a bit more patience (or a strong masochistic streak), bear with me while I try to explain myself and de-clutter my brain.
I've made and attempted this type of character in other systems and older editions, but never had a chance to see it get any play time.
I'd like to make a character who can step up as the "strong-man" of the group. He doesn't need to win any DPS competitions, but he should be able to make a decent damage contribution in combat; enough so that the mechanics support the idea of hulk-esque blows and effects, but just being the heavy lifter/pack mule could also scratch the itch. I'm leading with this because it's the biggest mechanical issue and my search-fu isn't that strong.
Theme is most important. PFS not necessary, but RAW is preferred. Not opposed to RAI and/or 3pp if it furthers the concept.
I'd like the character to be able to use "earth" magic. Specifically rocks, tremors, and crystals, NOT so much Acid or plant spells. Think earth benders from Avatar.
I'd also like him to have a totemistic tie to tigers. Could be an AC, but more preference for shape shifting, or anthropomorphic. Ideally this boosts STR, as well as whatever skills, utility, and flavor it can add to the character.
Race wise, in the past I've considered a 3.x racial variant on elves (Wild or Wood elf I think) that got to swap a Str bonus for the normal Dex. I like the idea of an atypically brawny elf. I've also liked the Goliaths (sorry only knew them from 4e D&D). Have considered a tigerish Catfolk, but don't know if there's any RAW way to get one a STR boost. Also like Oreads.
Classes I've tried are Druid, 4e Warden, Barbarian, and Shaman. Magus seems a fit for weapon and magic together, but I don't know for sure.
However the character builds, I'd like him to be able to use whatever the biggest (damage die) hammer is. Maul, sledge, Earth-Breaker? Dice rarely like me, so the consistent decent base damage and smash appeals to me more than the high crit or broad crit range weapons.
I realize there's a very likely chance here that my concept is a little too spread out to really work well. I'm not looking for super optimal, just ideas to polish him up, or make the parts cohese well enough to contribute in a group of average level experience and game mastery.
Beyond the combat and mechanical aspects, it would be nice to have enough skills, feats, features left over to help flesh out/justify some wisdom or charisma type skills/roles. I see him as your classic strong leader type, or possibly "right hand man". He doesn't have to be the star in these areas, but I'd like him to not suck at social interaction or skills that involve out of combat assistance for the party. Maybe some craft skills related to his magic with stone and gems.
I know a lot of this comes out in flavor and role play. I'd just like to find mechanics that support the descriptions. For reference to what I know and am familiar with. I have immediate access to the CRB and APG. For just about everything else, my primary reference/resource is D20pfsrd. I've looked at Nethys once or twice, but I get lost. (Tragic I know) I'm pretty comfortable with the basic rules and several 3pp contributions, but I know nothing about Mythic, Unchained, or VMC. Open to learn though.
If there's any questions about priorities; Earth Magic and the Tiger shape tie for first, being really STR is a close but definitive third, hammer is a must but doesn't need to be optimal, and then leftovers to flesh out. Any other questions I'll try and answer if/when they arise.
Any and all feedback is appreciated. If you could let me know what kind of level, role, niche, or build your advice leans towards that would also help. For instance, I tend to always build with level 20 in mind, but I usually see play to level 5ish, rarely to level 11ish. I've no problem with room to grow, but I'd like as many of the options or seeds to be established at level 1 as possible.
Any advice on how to build a strong-man, earth elemental magic using character, with a tiger motif, and a penchant for using stupidly big hammers?
I think I can help you.
Sysryke wrote:
Earth Magic and the Tiger shape tie for first, being really STR is a close but definitive third, hammer is a must but doesn't need to be optimal, and then leftovers to flesh out.
So, as you observed, you can be a Catgirl or Catboi.
Sysryke wrote:
Have considered a tigerish Catfolk, but don't know if there's any RAW way to get one a STR boost.
Well, how are your ability scores going to be determined? If it's a point buy system, you can just make sure you have a high strength by sacrificing whatever. If you are rolling your stats, you usually get to arrange them as you see it.
Druids can turn in to cats and elementals. Goliath Druids can turn into giants. Lion Shaman Druids are extra good at turning into cats.
Still another option would be to take levels in Living Monolith. Living Monoliths can Enlarge themselves 3/day as a Swift Action, and as they take more levels in LM, they get powers along the theme of turning into living stone statues, like Stone Blood, Meld into Stone, stuff like that. Enlarge Person eventually becomes Righteous Might. So you could be a hammer-wielding Catboi who becomes a giant animiated tiger man statue.
Actually, I think that's the build for you: Cat? Catfolk: check. Earth Magic? Living Monoliths become big stone statue people: check. Hammer? I'm thinking sledge hammer, Titan Fighter, and Shikigami Style Feats. I know you said it doesn't have to be optimal, but you don't mind if it is optimized and crazy powerful, do you?
A sledge hammer is like an Earthbreaker hammer except it is an Improvised Weapon: -4 on your attack rolls. Take the Catch Off Guard Feat. That lets you use Improvised Weapons without penalty.
Make your first level in Fighter with the Titan Fighter Archetype. That lets you use a Size Large Sledge Hammer with a -2 penalty, but 3d6 Damage.
Take Shikigami Style Feats. There are 3 of them, and every one you take gives you a 1 spot Virtual Size Increase on your weapon damage, so with your first SS Feat, you Large Sledge Hammer does 4d6, with the second, 6d6, and with your 3rd, 8d6.
You need Iron Will and Endurance to be a Living Monolith, and with your actual Size Increase your base Damage goes up to 12d6.
If you're inclined to earth but not acid, and want to use a stupidly large hammer then a geokineticist might be up your alley. Kinetic knight gets free kinetic blade which is your stupidly large hammer. Earth magic is what a geokineticist does. For tigerness you could be an agathion-blooded aasimar, rakshasa-spawn tiefling or tigerkin skinwalker, or just catfolk. Most of those lean to dex/cha but not all.
Honestly, I'd probably consider something as simple as a barbarian/druid. Maybe that archetype that swaps spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally for Shillelagh and Flame Blade so you can have a big oaken cudgel/rock hammer? That or the Lion Shaman.
Take up Boon Companion and the feat that's Boon Companion for Wildshape so you can go Barbarian 4/Druid X, maybe? And from there it's just a matter of spell/animal companion/wild shape selection to round out your themes.
Half-orc or human would be solid choices. Maybe throw in some Improved Sunder for a little earth-flavor to your regular combat routine aside from spells?
Obligatory Half-orc Amplfied Rage Skald (Totemic Tiger) with a level dip into Bloodrager for the Valet Familiar and +8/+8 rage? But I tend to go with Planar Wild Shape to be a Celestial Tiger with pounce all day, not exactly a strongman with a big weapon. A few bardic spells are crystal themed, I think?
I suppose I should mention my go-to of Medium(Champion) because it gives a bonus to strength checks, and I don't know how I'll fit in Underground Chemist though. When all you have is a Alchemist's Fire everything looks like a swarm?
Thank you all so much. I have a lot of reading and cross referencing to do, but this gives me a lot of ideas. Despite my years playing, in many ways I guess I'm still a babe in the woods. I almost never look at or get to play multi-class or prestige class builds. Truly, thank you all.
There is also "reskinning" ie, an oread with granite skin in the shape/colorings similar to a tiger... Or a 1/2 orc with tribal tattoos in a tiger style... so racially u can do a few things to find the stat boosts you are looking for.
As for elemental magic themes, i would also suggest the Kineticist, though i would not suggest the Kinetict Knight archetype, just a vanilla earth kineticist. Also a dip for martial weapons... and better armor. The only problem here is that most martial base classes dont get will saves.... so a lvl or 2 of fighter, barb unchained or the like gets you martial weapons, take an Earthbreaker and maybe work towards the vital strike feats
Really appreciating the feed back so far. To those who've posted, or those to come, any idea when a build like this will "take off"? I don't always quite get what folks mean when they talk about this, but I know you'll see people post about how a build doesn't come into its own or take off until level x. Just wondering if this concept has a sweet spot, a plateau, or a point where it "falls behind".
Kinetic knight takes off about 3rd level. That's when they get resolve (ignore many will save effects) and blade rush. The defence ability at 4th is nice but not in the same league as power bumps go.
Ordinary kineticist doesn't get a power bump so obviously. They're more likely to be a dex-based ranged character with a bit of melee; whenever they have all of weapon finesse, point blank shot and precise shot is where I'd call them fully online, but they'll be pretty good at 3rd too.
The Skald starts off as a strong man... because it starts off as a strength focused Bloodrager. I'd say it 'takes off' (or rather, the sweet spot in which basically everything is online) at level 8-9 when you are wild shaped into a celestial tiger for 7-8 hours/day and can Haste(because natural spell) your party as a standard action, start Raging Song(because totemic) as a Move, and then pounce the next round. But you could just take a 2h and be a beatstick before you get wild shape.
TL:DR 28 Str at level 9 (no belt, medium sized creature) with a starting 17 str post-race bonus. With 6 primary natural attacks and 2-5 grab attempts that may deal damage again depending on rage powers.
A (not so) quick write up of the Skald:
Half Orc
*Darkvision-> Skilled (+1 skill per level, so you can dump Int easier)
If you are playing the Sub-Zero game, I like also swapping for:
*Intimidating-> Shaman's Apprentice (here for Endurance and eventually Flagellant, but that is more of a defensive thing)
*Weapon Familiarity-> Dusksight (to get back some sort of vision, though at Planar Wildshape you get Darkvision back)
And not swapping out Orc Ferocity
Otherwise, Sacred Tattoo is good. With the Fate's Favored trait, of course.
Bloodrager 1: whatever bloodline, I like Celestial.
Bloodline Power -> Bloodline Familiar(Celestial) allows your familiar to grant fast healing 1 a couple times per day. Valet Familiar so it shares your teamwork feats. It then sits in a Familiar Satchel all day as an attended item it at least has full cover all the time and has to be directly targeted. I picked a rat familiar because I wanted to 'despite all his rage he was still just a rat in a cage' jokes, but Hedgehog is probably best for another +2 Will. Once you get wild shape, strap it to your saddle. Because, why not be a battle-cat.
Blood Rage (4+Con rounds), Fast Movement +10'
Level 1 Feat: Amplified Rage. This increases bloodrage to be +8 Morale Str/Con, +2 Morale Will, -2 Untyped Penalty to AC.
Level 3 Feat: Free, take whatever like Power Attack
Level 5 Feat: Natural Spell
Level 7 Feat: Planar Wild Shape (though you will need a Druid's Vestment to activate it before level 12.
Level 9+: whatever you feel like
Trait: Community-Minded, your Morale Bonuses (but not penalties from such effects) you give to allies last an additional 2 rounds.
Level 2-X: Skald, specifically at least Totemic(Tiger). I also went with Red Tongue for the rogue talent and sharing it with allies, I picked combat trick and the outflank teamwork feat. As well as Urban, with Community-Minded everyone accepts Inspired Rage when you start it and you choose to add +Dex. At the start of their turn, say they are a caster and don't want the restriction against casting, they choose not to accept anymore but the morale bonus sticks around for another 2 rounds. When your next round comes up (at least a round in which you will be attacking) you choose to gain your Bloodrage bonuses and penalties instead of the +Dex from Urban because that is a thing Inspired Rage allows the recipient to choose. So you are at +Dex for a couple more rounds and +8 Str/Con +2 Will -2 AC.
Oh and Totemic allows you to add +Enhancement Dex to your Raging Song, so at level 9 after your buffing round while wild shaped into a (medium-sized*) celestial tiger you are at +8 Dex(+4 Morale, +4 Enchancement), +10 Str (+4 Morale bloodrage, +4 amplified rage, +2 size), +8 Con (+4 Morale bloodrage, +4 amplified rage), +2 Morale Will, +1 Natural Armor, -2 AC. So like, starting 20 PB with a 15(+2 race, +1@4)/14/12/8/11/15(+1@8), you would be at 28 str / 22 dex / 20 con / 8 int / 11 wis / 16 cha before any gear. Which is likely a +4 str belt at that level.
You get 1 rage power at Skald 6, since the +enhancement to dex is your level 3 rage power. I went Guarded Life but I was playing the sub-zero game. Something like Lesser Fiend Totem for a Gore natural attack, or Lesser Spirit Totem to add a (charisma-based) slam attack to all your allies. Was Lesser Spirit Totem clarified that it was at the Skald's bonus or the recipient's? I forget. Or Raging Grappler to deal damage when you succeed on a grapple check as if you maintained a grapple. BTW, Tiger Claws have the Grab ability which allow you to attempt a grapple when you hit, so it's effectively a grab->constrict->release situation. Just choose to release the grapple as a free action if you still have another claw attack left, so you can re-grapple and deal damage again.
80' move speed with Haste
Claw(grab) / Claw(grab) / Bite / Haste(Bite or another claw/grab) (/Rake/Rake on Pounce). I am not clear on if you can grab on the Rake attacks. But if so, you are looking at potentially 11 instances of damage with Raging Grappler (probably a reason its not legal for PFS).
Skills: 4(-1)(+1) plus Versatile Performance x2 /level so decent at 6 'max' skills besides performance(oratory).
Saves: Your saves are decent, all equal to or better then your level. +13 Fort, +9 Ref, +10 Will before cloak of resistance. +2 to all of those if you went Sacred Tattoo/Fate's Favored.
Light Armor (barding really) & Shields with no Arcane Spell Failure
Proficient in All Martial & Simple weapons, slightly better than +3/4 BAB (+7 at 9th)
Celestial Template: Resist 10 Acid/Cold/Electric, DR 5/Evil; 15s and 10/evil at level 11. SR 14 (5+level) and 1 smite/day.
Communication is troublesome, but Totemic Skald qualifies for Wild Speech. You can get a wand of Beastspeak, though manipulating the wand might be difficult as a tiger. Ring of Eloquence is the usual solution though and it even gives a bonus to Perform(Oratory) which in turn affects multiple other skills with Versatile Performance.
*Medium-sized tiger was chosen because you can get though any doors that medium creatures are expected to, and while you can argue that Totemic saying your effective druid level for wild-shape is level -1 (which should include any rules dealing with larger/smaller animals) it doesn't explicitly say. So you might have to run it by your GM.
Seems to me a dwarven Hunter with a dwarven long hammer and hunter aspects may be what you want too. Earth magic with tripping spells and abilities to make areas difficult terrain combined with dwarven and hunter abilities to move around well in those areas...
Could be a tight package with little multiclass reason.
Really appreciating the feed back so far. To those who've posted, or those to come, any idea when a build like this will "take off"? I don't always quite get what folks mean when they talk about this, but I know you'll see people post about how a build doesn't come into its own or take off until level x. Just wondering if this concept has a sweet spot, a plateau, or a point where it "falls behind".
I think my character develops gradually and quickly.
Catfolk
Level 1, Fighter1: Titan Fighter, Catch off Guard, BAB+1
You use a Sledge Hammer, you take a -2, but you do 3d6/hit
2F2: Shikigami Style, BAB+2
Every Shikigami Style Feat lets you inflict Damage as if your hammer were 1 size bigger. So now you are doing 4d6 Damage
3F3: Iron Will, Incredible Heft(the -2 Penalty drops to -1), BAB+3
F4: Shikigami Mimicry (6D6 Base Damage), BAB+4
5F5: Endurance, Unstoppable Momentum +1, BAB+5
6F6: Shikigami Manipulation (8d6 Base Damage), BAB+6
7F6Living Monolith1: Ka Stone: Enlarge Person 3/day, Toughness, Vital Strike
With my build, you start off as a Tiger person with a big hammer. You steadily do more and more damage: 3d6 at level 1 up to 12d6 at level 7, 24d6 if you use Vital Strike, so you are gaining more than 1d6 Damage/Attack every level.
The Earth Magic Part doesn't come online until level 7.
I recently worked out a variant that is more powerful, but a little crazy. The build works better for a Half Orc instead of a Catfolk, but it works for a Catfolk, and you want to be a tiger.
Thanks again to all. And I'd be happy to see any builds you wish to share. I do really like the fighter to Living Monolith, but I might slow it down or dilute it some to get some earth magic a bit sooner. The kineticist appeals for the earthbender aspect, I've just never played or seen the occult classes in play yet. The scald/bloodragger also opened my eyes to new options. Only reticence there is I did a shaman/skald before that was thunder and mammoth themed. I hesitate to retread to close to a build I've done before, but there's some elements I really like out of all I've read so far.
Can anyone speak to the pros and cons of multiclassing versus single class builds at level 20? I know I've said I hardly ever get there, but it's hard to shake that thought process. What helps to offset the "loss" of high level spells and capstone abilities?
If you're going for a prestige class then you can get a capstone. It just hits at level 16 or so rather than level 20. If not then you'll just have to make do with the really big numbers you can get on, say, a shaping focus druid/barbarian/whatever.
Above 6th level spells or so the exact spell levels break down - well chosen 7th-8th level spells can be outright better than 9th level spells. You won't necessarily feel the loss.
Play a druid, they can shape shift into earth elementals (Strong) and tigers. I'm pretty sure there is a combat oriented archtype that will fit your need for hammers and such.
Thanks again to all. And I'd be happy to see any builds you wish to share. I do really like the fighter to Living Monolith, but I might slow it down or dilute it some to get some earth magic a bit sooner.
I you want to be more magic, Living Monolith levels can increase your Caster Level. You take an Ib Stone intead of a Ka Stone. You don't get Toughness, but every level in LM starting with Level 2 increases the Caster level of whatever class you dip into.
I mean... why not be a weretiger earth kineticist??
Also sounds great. In other game systems I've built weretigers. But, are they a playable race in Pathfinder? I thought just a template. And by RAW, wouldn't that force me to be evil? I'd prefer to be good, and adding a template might be a little too unbalanced if the rest of my group doesn't also get/want some equivalent perks.
Skinwalkers with weretiger ancestry are as close as you can get to a weretiger in PF. Those get access to a couple of intimidate feats BTW, it might be worth getting the kinetic awe wild talent so you can get motivating display and/or violent display.
Well thank you kindly! He's one of a whole slew of elemental critter totemists I have, but he's my first and technically favorite. Yet sadly, perhaps the concept that has seen the least play. I'm still waiting for the right game/party.
A sledge hammer is like an Earthbreaker hammer except it is an Improvised Weapon: -4 on your attack rolls. Take the Catch Off Guard Feat. That lets you use Improvised Weapons without penalty.
If I go with this build, and you're recommending I take Catch Off Guard to be more accurate with the sledge, is there any reason I couldn't take Exotic Weapon Proficiency for the Earth Breaker? Does one weapon better sync with the build over the other? Either way I need to invest a feat. Sledge will cost less gold, but does it offer any other advantage?
A sledgehammer is an *improvised* earthbreaker. The shikigami feat chain increases the effective size of improvised weapons. So once you sink those three feats in, your improvised hammer does triple the damage of one designed to see combat.
Thanks for that clarification. Sledge it is. I'm assuming there's no shikigami similar feat chain for traditional weapons?
Not i think as such. There is the Butchering Axe which does 3d6. A Tithan Fighter could use a Size Large one that does 4d6. You could Enlarge and do 6D6 A lead Blades Spell would bring it up to 8d6.
There is the Oversized Limbs Alternate Racial Trait of Tieflings, but the wording of that trait makes it dodgy.
