No. Favoured Class bonuses don't apply to prestige classes.
There is a feat - FAVOURED PRESTIGE CLASS - which gives you a favoured class bonus for a prestige class, but it specifically says you don't get to choose alternate favoured class bonuses (you only get the HP/skill bonus).
You could talk to your GM about this feat petting you continue your elven FCB for Summoner, but it would definitely be a home-rule.
Otherwise you might just have to wait till level 11 to take levels in the prestige class.
Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
'
It seems pretty clear to me that you would get your summoner FCB when taking levels in Evangelist. It is a class feature, after all.
It is a class feature, after all.
No it isn't. It isn't something granted to you by the Summoner class, it's granted to you by the general mechanics of the game - in the same way that you get a stat boost every 4 levels and a feat every odd level.
EDIT: willuwontu said it better =P
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Not a class feature.
If you look at any class, you will see a heading of: Class Features. Favored Class Bonuses are not a part of a class feature, they are character features.
(The best place to see this is page 31 of the Core Rulebook, where you can see the rules for Favored Class Bonuses, and then see the Class Features header for the Barbarian later on the same page.
As they've said, favoured class bonuses are not class features.
However, talk to your Game Master. With the feat MrCharisma talked about, I'd be inclined to houserule that it also applies to racial FCB, even more so in the case of the Evangelist. It is thematically coherent, doesn't break anything rules-wise and you'd be paying a feat for it.
I disagree, Favored class bonuses are not a class feature, they are merely class dependent.
"merely class dependent"
That's the definition of a class feature, no?
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Not a class feature.
If you look at any class, you will see a heading of: Class Features. Favored Class Bonuses are not a part of a class feature, they are character features.
Going by that logic Skill Ranks isn't a class feature because it's not under that heading. Not to mention Class Skills, BAB, or saving throws.
Yes you will see a heading of Class Features, but only for unique class features. There's no reason to repeat class features that every single class gets.
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Not a class feature.
If you look at any class, you will see a heading of: Class Features. Favored Class Bonuses are not a part of a class feature, they are character features.
Going by that logic Skill Ranks isn't a class feature because it's not under that heading. Not to mention Class Skills, BAB, or saving throws.
Yes you will see a heading of Class Features, but only for unique class features. There's no reason to repeat class features that every single class gets.
I'm not sure if you are making the argument you think you are making here. I completely agree that Skill Ranks aren't a Class Feature. And I completely agree that the heading of Class Features is only for unique Class Features.
So we're in agreement!
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Oh, we're not. I think you are looking at anything a character gets when it gets a level as a class feature, rather than just those items called out as a class feature. Things that "every single class gets" are not - by definition - a class feature.
I disagree, Favored class bonuses are not a class feature, they are merely class dependent."merely class dependent"
That's the definition of a class feature, no?
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Not a class feature.
If you look at any class, you will see a heading of: Class Features. Favored Class Bonuses are not a part of a class feature, they are character features.
Going by that logic Skill Ranks isn't a class feature because it's not under that heading. Not to mention Class Skills, BAB, or saving throws.
Yes you will see a heading of Class Features, but only for unique class features. There's no reason to repeat class features that every single class gets.
Please point me to the favored class bonus section of the core rule book...
Favoured Class Bonuses aren't bonuses given by the class. They're given to a character every time they take a level in their chosen class.
2 Elven characters with identical stats each take a level in Lamplighter Investigater, but one has Investigator as their Favoured Class and the other doesn't. They're taking the same level in the same class and the same archetype, so all their class bonuses are the same, but one is getting something extra from a choice made at level 1 before taking ranks in any class.
Next level they both take a level in fighter and now the other Elf gets their FCB because they chose Fighter as their Favoured Class. These 2 characters are now both Investigator-2/Fighter-1, with the same bonuses from their classes, but having chosen different favoured classes means they're getting different bonuses. This bonus is not a Class feature, it's a character advancement feature, and the choice is made before you pick any levels in any class.
If you look at the text for FCBs it makes it pretty clear.
Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Chapter 11) can never be a favored class.
Now there is an exception to that, the feat ...
You have come to favor a certain prestige class, either because you are particularly devoted to the class’s cause, have trained more than most others have for that specific role, or have simply been destined to excel in the prestige class all along. Regardless of the reason, levels gained in your favored prestige class grant additional benefits in a way similar to those you gain for taking levels in your base favored class.
Benefit: Choose one prestige class and one skill that is a class skill for that prestige class. Whenever you gain a level in that prestige class, you receive +1 hit point or +1 skill rank. You gain a +2 bonus on checks using the skill you chose from that prestige class’s class skills. If you have 10 or more ranks in one of these skills, the bonus increases to +4 for that skill. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Skill Focus, but does not stack with a bonus granted by any other feat (such as Magical Aptitude or Persuasive). The choice of favored prestige class cannot be changed once you make it. Levels in a favored prestige class are not the same as levels in a regular favored class, and as such levels in a favored prestige class can never be used to qualify or gain favored class options like those introduced in Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide. You can have only one favored prestige class, but can still have a favored base class as well.
You can select this feat before you gain levels in your chosen favored prestige class, but the benefits of the feat do not apply until you actually gain at least 1 level in that prestige class.
Normal: Prestige classes cannot be a favored class, and cannot benefit from the additional hit point or skill rank afforded to those who take levels in a favored class.
... but it still makes it clear you don't get your alternate FCB.
I'm not sure if you are making the argument you think you are making here. I completely agree that Skill Ranks aren't a Class Feature. And I completely agree that the heading of Class Features is only for unique Class Features.
Great. So we've already reached the point of absurdity.
Let's play a fun game. I'm going to quote something that either heavily implies or outright states that skill ranks are considered a class feature. Then you'll do the opposite!
Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
It's also affirmed in the Sacred Sentinel class:
Sacred Sentinel wrote:
A sacred sentinel who violates this code loses all class features of this prestige class other than skill points and class skills for 24 hours.
- Maybe I should create a new thread for this, I will if it gets out of hand -
Hit Dice are class features but Hit Points are not? How do the rules handle losing Hit Dice?
I know we could mimic negative levels but this isn't by the rules.
I am genuinely asking, not trying to make a point. Are there other mechanisms in the game that have a character lose Hit Dice?
Going by that logic Skill Ranks isn't a class feature because it's not under that heading. Not to mention Class Skills, BAB, or saving throws.
Correct. None of these are class features.
You want proof? The Ex-Clerics rules says "A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by her god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons." (CRB pg. 41) If BAB etc. were class features, an ex-Cleric would lose those.
Let's look at one of the numerous ex-Paladins and ex-Clerics in various APs and PFS scenarios:
Nildus Thilano CR 4
XP 1,200
Male old human ex-cleric of Erastil 7
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 49 (7d8++14)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +9
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk heavy mace +5 (1d8–1)
Ranged +1 composite longbow +7 (1d8/×3)
STATISTICS
Str 9, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +4; CMD 15
Feats Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Toughness
Skills Diplomacy +10, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (religion) +11, Survival +11
Languages Common, Varisian
Combat Gear scroll of breath of life, scrolls of lesser restoration (2), scroll of neutralize poison; Other Gear +1 studded leather, +1 composite longbow with 20 arrows, masterwork heavy mace
Looks like a character with the BAB, HD, saves, and skills of a 7th level Cleric to me, but without any of the class features of the Cleric.
@MrCharisma
I'm having trouble meeting your argument because I'm failing to see the point being made. You're claiming that FCB is not a class feature by quoting rules that specify that Prestige Classes can't be chosen as a Favored Class.
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A class feature (imo) is something that a class provides to every character who takes it, and is something that's has access to it granted at the same level for every character who takes that class/archetype combination. That is, these things are necessary to be a class feature:
A. The ability to have the feature/ability must depend on the class/archetype being taken.
B. The feature/ability must be something granted by the class.
C. The feature/ability must be something that all characters with that class and archetype combination gain access to at the same level.
Therefore, according to this definition, FCB's are not class features.
I believe that choices you make can modify your class features, and that choosing your Favored Class is simply adding (or unlocking) a class feature to a specific class. A cleric with the Acolyte of Apocrypha trait has access to a bunch of new subdomains that a normal cleric can never take. Even though the modifying ability wasn't part of the cleric class the new subdomain is still considered a class feature.
I'd say that FCB is in the exact same camp as Hit Dice, BAB, Saves or Class Skills. Although not specifically called class features I really don't understand the position of someone who would claim they aren't, unless you make a distinction between "class features" and "features of a class".
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Correct. None of these are class features.
You want proof?
So the ex-cleric NPC statblock "heavily implies" that BAB/etc isn't a class feature. But the Aligned Class ability, which is the ability that kicked off the discussion, "heavily implies" that it is. And this FAQ "heavily implies" that Class Skills is a class feature.
In this case I think I'd rather rely on the relevant ability.
@MrCharisma
I'm having trouble meeting your argument because I'm failing to see the point being made. You're claiming that FCB is not a class feature by quoting rules that specify that Prestige Classes can't be chosen as a Favored Class.
Sorry I was trying to say 2 things and got them a bit muddled when I bolded the text.
Let's try to simplify it.
First, the text for FCBs isn't written in the text for each class, it's written at the beginning of the chapter in the section for character advancement - along with Multiclassing and the table for feats, ability point upgrades and experience by level (with slow, medium and fast experience tracks). Class features are what's written in the text for each class. If it isn't written in the class description (or in an archetype description) it isn't a class feature. This is probably the easiest way to define class features.
Next, if we look at what it says in the Favoured Class Bonus section:
Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing — typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Chapter 11) can never be a favored class.
So this means you get your FCB when you gain a level in the class chosen, not simply get class features. It's a fine distinction but it's there. Gaining a level in Evangelist is not gaining a level in Wizard (for example), it's gaining a level in Evangelist and poaching class features from Wizard. This is the strict RAW (Rules As Written) argument. It may poach more class featurs than other prestige classes (eg. Dragon Disciple poaches Spells and Bloodline class features), but it works the same way.
The Evangelist also isn't the only prestige class who borrows class features wholesale from a parent class. The MORTAL USHER's Mortal Talents are essentially the same as the Evangelist's Aligned Class, but instead of every level it's every 2nd level. Would you view it differently to the Evangelist?
How does that make it a class feature?
You should ask Name Violation about that since they were the one who brought it up.
I'm guessing that they claimed that it is a "character feature" and wanted to prove it by pointing out that NPCs with class levels doesn't have a Favored Class. But since NPCs do have a Favored Class this claim was disproved. At the very least we can safely say that a Favored Class is fully dependent on having a class, and not on being a PC.
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Class features are what's written in the text for each class. If it isn't written in the class description (or in an archetype description) it isn't a class feature. This is probably the easiest way to define class features.
It is the easiest way, I agree. Personally I believe that the Favored Class Bonus is missing for the same reason that the rules for BAB, Skill Ranks, Saving Throws, and Class Skills aren't repeated in every single class description. It's a waste of space to do so.
Class Skills is a universal class feature. Every class has them, and although they vary from class to class the actual ability stays the same. So the reason (according to myself) why FCB is the only class feature (again, according to myself) that isn't listed in the class description is because it originally didn't vary at all between classes.
I can't prove that FCB is a class feature. But at the same time I'm not satisfied with any of the explanations trying to prove the opposite. It all seems like incredible pedantry to not call FCB a class feature when we have multiple examples of abilities being class features even though they're not explicitly called out being that.
If we can agree that Class Skills is a class feature then I don't understand why FCB is such a clear cut case.
In this thread there have been one or three posters who based their argument on things where the complete opposite was proven to be true. So I feel that there's definitely room for doubt. Still, I recognize that I am in the minority here. If you're all absolutely certain with no doubt whatsoever that FCB isn't a class feature then I'll just drop it.
Well to be fair this is about the only time I can think of where the distinction matters. For 99% of your games this is something where ruling either way wouldn't make a difference. It' only the Evangelist and Mortal Usher (that I know of) who actually get "all class features" from their Base Class. If you want to rule differently it won't really matter.
For the OP, you have a fairly consistent consensus that it isn't a class feature that the Evangelist can continue (although I'll agree with Wondersell that some of the reasoning wasn't 100%). If you want to get permission show this thread to your GM and see what they think.
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Please point me to the favored class bonus section of the core rule book...I disagree, Favored class bonuses are not a class feature, they are merely class dependent."merely class dependent"
That's the definition of a class feature, no?
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Not a class feature.
If you look at any class, you will see a heading of: Class Features. Favored Class Bonuses are not a part of a class feature, they are character features.
Going by that logic Skill Ranks isn't a class feature because it's not under that heading. Not to mention Class Skills, BAB, or saving throws.
Yes you will see a heading of Class Features, but only for unique class features. There's no reason to repeat class features that every single class gets.
Page 31:
Favored Class
Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level
(including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Chapter 11) can never be a favored class.
The Evangelist is receiving level in the Evangelist prestige class, not in the class chosen at first level.
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How does that make it a class feature?You should ask Name Violation about that since they were the one who brought it up.
I'm guessing that they claimed that it is a "character feature" and wanted to prove it by pointing out that NPCs with class levels doesn't have a Favored Class. But since NPCs do have a Favored Class this claim was disproved. At the very least we can safely say that a Favored Class is fully dependent on having a class, and not on being a PC.
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Class features are what's written in the text for each class. If it isn't written in the class description (or in an archetype description) it isn't a class feature. This is probably the easiest way to define class features.It is the easiest way, I agree. Personally I believe that the Favored Class Bonus is missing for the same reason that the rules for BAB, Skill Ranks, Saving Throws, and Class Skills aren't repeated in every single class description. It's a waste of space to do so.
Class Skills is a universal class feature. Every class has them, and although they vary from class to class the actual ability stays the same. So the reason (according to myself) why FCB is the only class feature (again, according to myself) that isn't listed in the class description is because it originally didn't vary at all between classes.
I can't prove that FCB is a class feature. But at the same time I'm not satisfied with any of the explanations trying to prove the opposite. It all seems like incredible pedantry to not call FCB a class feature when we have multiple examples of abilities being class features even though they're not explicitly called out being that.
If we can agree that Class Skills is a class feature then I don't understand why FCB is such a clear cut case.In this thread there have been one or three posters who based their argument on things where the complete opposite was proven to be true. So I feel that there's definitely room for doubt. Still, I recognize that I am in the minority here. If you're all absolutely certain with no doubt whatsoever that FCB isn't a class feature then I'll just drop it.
Just a question an ex-paladin (or ex-whatever) lose his FCB or not?
If the FCB is a class feature (with a strange limitation that make it available only for one class instead of all the class you have taken), then he will lose the FCB as the FCB isn't listed in the abilities he retains.Then, if you read the start of the class section of the CRB, you will notice two pieces of text:
First
Advancing Your Character
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level’s class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.
Notice the bolded part: class abilities.
Second, in the text of all the classes:
Class Features
Every class has a section called Class features, none of the classes list the FCB as a class feature.
That strongly implies that class abilities and class features are different.
Then, let's check the APG, where alternated FCB where introduced.
Where are they? Under the description of the classes? No.
They are under the description of the races, like this:
FAVORED CLASS OPTIONS
Instead of receiving an additional skill rank or hit point whenever he gains a level in a favored class, a dwarf has the option of choosing from a number of other bonuses, depending upon his favored class. The following options are available to all dwarves who have the listed favored class, and unless otherwise stated, the bonus applies each time you select the listed favored class reward.
And the general description of the alternate FCB starts with:
RACIAL FAVORED CLASSES
The final section for each racial discussion describes alternative benefits for members of that race taking certain classes as a favored class.
All that stuff is listed outside the class abilities. I don't see how you guys can call them a Class feature.
Just a question an ex-paladin (or ex-whatever) lose his FCB or not?
Good question. It seems like the Ex-cleric that Derklord posted still has their FCB to HP, so unless we have any other Ex-class stat block that's it. I don't like depending on NPC stat blocks for rules but that's the closest we have atm.
So we can probably put FCB under the same umbrella as BAB/Skill Ranks/Etc.
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Then, let's check the APG, where alternated FCB where introduced.
Where are they? Under the description of the classes? No.
They are under the description of the races, like this:
I'd rather check the Core Rulebook though. Where the paragraph detailing the Favored Class Bonus is in the Classes chapter, right before the description of the Barbarian class. FCB is definitely more related to class than race. Every creature with class levels gets their FCB.
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Every class has a section called Class features, none of the classes list the FCB as a class feature.
That strongly implies that class abilities and class features are different.
It seemed obvious to me that the undefined term of "class feature" was simply "a feature from your class", but it really isn't that simple when Ex-classes is brought up. A Cleric who loses all of their "class features" keeps their Skill Ranks, Class Skills, BAB, and Saving Throws even though they were all given by the class.
So in the context of Ex-classes they are not "class features". But when we're choosing Archetypes that revolve around "alternate class features" then we have plenty of examples where Skill Ranks, Class Skills, BAB, and Saving Throws are considered class features.
It really depends on context. If we say that "class features" is a subset of "class abilities", and Abilities encompasses everything from the class, then that makes perfect sense for the Ex-Cleric/Pally and Monk. But an Ex-Druid would spontaneously implode as the description states that they lose all class abilities. (which would explain why Druidic is still a secret language)
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Keeping all of that in mind, I don't think that the Aligned Class ability uses the restrictive definition of Class Feature since it calls out Hit Dice, BAB, Saving Throws, and Skill Ranks as class features. If you don't believe those are class features then that means Aligned Class should have used the term Class Abilities instead.
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It seemed obvious to me that the undefined term of "class feature" was simply "a feature from your class", but it really isn't that simple when Ex-classes is brought up.
The CRB has several paragraph called Class features, so the term is defined. Class abilities is used in the Classes chapter when speaking of the whole set of Class features, BAB, Saves, Skills and FCB.
Sadly that separation wasn't used in a consistent way in later books and FAQ.But, for me, the whole argument is moot.
The requirement to get the FCB is to take level in the class. Not import the class features in another class.
You wold give an alternate class, like the Antipaladin, the FCB of the original class?
And the Paladin the Antipaladin FCB?
The situation here is very similar, plus the simple fact that the Evangelists is a prestige class, and RAW prestige classes don't receive FCB.
Sadly that separation wasn't used in a consistent way in later books and FAQ.
It's been used inconsistently because the term was never properly defined. There's no paragraph detailing what is and isn't a class feature, which is why we end up with conflicting usage of the term. Even in the core rulebook.
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Do you agree that the Aligned Class ability calls skill ranks a class feature?
She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
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Do you agree that the Aligned Class ability calls skill ranks a class feature?
She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
No. As it doesn't call HD, BAB, and Saves class features.
You are trying to mage a negative statement into a positive one.
Do you agree that the Aligned Class ability strongly implies that skill ranks is a class feature?
If you read "all other class features" in a way that doesn't imply that, I'd like you to elaborate.
Argh...something is up with my browser. Cavall I flagged your post by accident and can't remove it. Apologies. :(
Do you agree that the Aligned Class ability calls skill ranks a class feature?
The Wizard's "Bonus Feats" class feature says "These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gets from advancing levels." Do you agree that bonus feats without such text (e.g. Monk's) replace a character's normal feats?
The Monk's Unarmed Strike ability says "This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full." Do you agree that non-Monk's can't do that despite the general US rules talking about kicks?
Redundant explanatory text doesn't make rules, it's merely a rhetoric device. The Aligned Class ability mentions BAB etc. so that it's crystal clear that they aren't included in the ability. That does not in any way mean the text is what makes them not included, or even implies that they aren't included!
Good question. It seems like the Ex-cleric that Derklord posted still has their FCB to HP, so unless we have any other Ex-class stat block that's it. I don't like depending on NPC stat blocks for rules but that's the closest we have atm.
There's a couple other NPCs, but all from APs and PFS modules, so nothing that's on AoN.
I could post some others, but I think it's clear (and obvious) that HD, BAB etc. are not lost when becoming an ex-Cleric or ex-Paladin, despite the respective description clearly saying all class features are lost. And if those aren't classified as class features, I don't see why FCB should be.
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Do you agree that the Aligned Class ability strongly implies that skill ranks is a class feature?
No, Derklors explained better than me, there is plenty of redundant text in the rules.
If you read "all other class features" in a way that doesn't imply that, I'd like you to elaborate.
The existence in every printed character class of a section classed Class features to me strongly implies the opposite.
You are arguing that Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks are class features? Because the text you cite doesn't speak only of the skill ranks.
Besides all that, you don't have replied to the base problem: you aren't getting levels in the class. FCB says explicitly: "Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank." The character hasn't gained a level in the class. FCB isn't a benefit of the class, it is a benefit of the character. The character can choose a favored class and never take a level in it, a half-elf can choose two favored classes, a feat allows a character to get FCB for a prestige class. All stuff that is a bonus to the character, not received from a class feature.
If it was a class feature every character taking levels in that class would receive it, instead it is dependent on a choice made by the character.
I could post some others, but I think it's clear (and obvious) that HD, BAB etc. are not lost when becoming an ex-Cleric or ex-Paladin, despite the respective description clearly saying all class features are lost. And if those aren't classified as class features, I don't see why FCB should be.
Context.
Class Feature doesn't always mean Class Feature. Sometimes it means "class abilities" as with archetypes that alters skill ranks even though archetypes only provide "alternate class features". So BAB can be a Class Feature depending on the context.
Redundant explanatory text doesn't make rules, it's merely a rhetoric device. The Aligned Class ability mentions BAB etc. so that it's crystal clear that they aren't included in the ability. That does not in any way mean the text is what makes them not included, or even implies that they aren't included!
Ah, yes. The famous rhetoric device of saying something that you didn't mean. Truly riveting.
"Mr Derklord needs to stay seated, but all other passengers can exit the aircraft".
Am I calling you a passenger? Or is that merely a rhetoric device?
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You are arguing that Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks are class features? Because the text you cite doesn't speak only of the skill ranks.
I am saying that depending on context BAB can indeed be a class feature. Like when the Feyspeaker Druid alters your BAB, class skills, and skills ranks.
I am arguing that the Align Class ability is such a case.
I'm a bit lost with this argument.
BAB is definitely a class feature, as are saves. I could see an argument that HD, Skills/Level and Class-Skills aren't because they're not under the sub-heading: "Class Features", but the table with your BAB progression IS under that sub-heading.
My interpretation is that anything listed under "Monk" is a class feature of the Monk.
Regardless of how you read it, every argument has been made. If you're not convinced by the arguments so far you're unlikely to be convinced (that's for everyone). I say we've answered this question as well as it's going to be answered.
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I'm a bit lost with this argument.
BAB is definitely a class feature, as are saves. I could see an argument that HD, Skills/Level and Class-Skills aren't because they're not under the sub-heading: "Class Features", but the table with your BAB progression IS under that sub-heading.
My interpretation is that anything listed under "Monk" is a class feature of the Monk.
Regardless of how you read it, every argument has been made. If you're not convinced by the arguments so far you're unlikely to be convinced (that's for everyone). I say we've answered this question as well as it's going to be answered.
The argument is that the CRB differentiates between Class features and class abilities (used in Advancing Your Character) and if that difference matter or not.
Plus pretending that FCB is a class feature/ability instead that a character ability triggered by taking a level in a specific class.
I agree with you that FCB isn't a class feature, but I've already said my peace. I've seen all the arguments people have put forward, and I've put mine forward for others to see. If we aren't already convinced it's unlikely that repeating ourselves will change anything for each other.
Also, the specific rule we're looking at for this thread is such a niche interaction of rules that it's unlikely to seriously impact the game no matter which way a GM rules. If people disagree it doesn't really matter. The only really important thing is for the GM to make a ruling so the players know where they stand.
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I agree with you that FCB isn't a class feature, but I've already said my peace. I've seen all the arguments people have put forward, and I've put mine forward for others to see. If we aren't already convinced it's unlikely that repeating ourselves will change anything for each other.
Also, the specific rule we're looking at for this thread is such a niche interaction of rules that it's unlikely to seriously impact the game no matter which way a GM rules. If people disagree it doesn't really matter. The only really important thing is for the GM to make a ruling so the players know where they stand.
Ok, reasonable.
It pains a part of my argumentative soul, but there is no reason to continue.And Derklors and I are in agreement, something that deserves a toast.
Haha well if you want to keep this thread for the love of the debate then don't let me stop you.
But for now I'll say: Cheers to common ground, and cheers to accepting differences.
=)
i dont think its a class feature either, but i'll argue about it if y'all want
I think we're all good, thanks.