I'm not sure why these are in conflict. I understand they'll compete for feats, but to me they represent such different play strategies.
Assuming you want to get in an attack every round, Electric Arc will use up your remaining actions and you'll not be able to Raise a Shield. This works fine if you have a nice d12 weapon to do higher damage. AoOs will interfere too. Unless you cannot reach an enemy, Electric Arc won't be too useful when you have to move or want a shield up. Electric Arc won't be superior to your first Strike and requires decent Charisma investment even to be mediocre (compared to full casters). It doesn't seem worthwhile unless your party has a particularly strenuous time against low-flying enemies, robots w/ Weakness electricity, or groups w/ poor Reflex saves. I'd value Shield (the Cantrip) and a d12 weapon more (or d10 for Reach). Or even Ray of Frost for an attack w/ enough range for nearly all battles if you're trying to patch that hole.
As for flickmace, that build does include using Raise a Shield, otherwise why not a d10 polearm, right? Strike & Raise w/ a remaining action for moving, standing, Demoralize, Lay on Hands, or a second Strike. That seems more bread n' butter for most circumstances w/ most parties (who hopefully do have ranged attacks & AoEs). The Electric Arc doesn't seem useful enough often enough to warrant investment (unless it's syncing beyond the norm somehow in an esoteric build).
ETA: I'm not sure what you mean by a "frontline caster". Are you taking MCD feats? Focus spells? Relying on spells? I think casting may strain the Champion's chassis a bit too much. I admire such attempts, yet do consider the party's role in aiding breadth.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Neither, stop trying to optimize, it's a bad look IMO.
Just play a character whose concept engages you instead of trying to maximize effectiveness.
Just my 2 copper pieces.
And this. :)
I default to effectiveness because it's simpler, right? Especially when making an objective analysis on a forum. But in the end those effective builds always get set aside so I can play the PCs I've built around a non-mechanical concept first, like an image or personality. PF2 makes it hard to build an ineffective PC, unless one tries to take on too many roles to the neglect of their class's main shtick.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you are gonna snag a cantrip on a champion, it should probably be Ray of Frost so you have a decent ranged back up option.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm still confused. How is a Champion using Adapted Cantrip?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally I would get both. Just take Sorcerer/Druid/Witch dedication and you are good to go at level 2 and have more options download to get more spells.
Also you cant take adaptive cantrip but you could take arcane tattoos.
Thanks for the opinions. Think I am trying to do too much with one character. Going to stick with flick mace. I just don't have enough actions in a turn to use everything.
As for optimization, its always what i lean towards with everything in my life. My job actually revolves around the very concept. So I come u with a background and concept and optimize around it. Also the GM we are playing with this time expects us to be optimized.
Don't let anyone talk you out of optimization. If that is what you want go for it. I certainly know it is very hard to use ineffective tactics when better ones are available. For me, roleplaying is something that happens after I have a mechanical concept.
If you are using a shield, then flick mace is the best weapon. It is compulsory for Retributive Strike, but with Glimpse of Redemption its just nice. You have a good reaction even if you don't have a reaction attack. So you don't need a Flickmace for a Redemeer, but why not reach is still useful, and it helps you to be offensive while still holding the best defensve location.
It is probably still worth while picking up Attack of Opportunity. But you should get a feel for how often your reaction is going to trigger, depending on your campaign and how the GM plays the monsters. You only get one reaction.
If you find you are being ignored too much by monsters then at least your reaction will be triggering often, and you need to become a bit more offensive - try some of the blade ally feats. If the monsters do normally focus on you then concentrate on your defense, which is what Champions are best at.
I don't really see any point in combat cantrips for a Champion, both your hands are going to be full. Action wise it doesn't work out. Utility magic is still useful, maybe through a Cleric, Bard or Sorcerer multiclass.
I don't really see any point in combat cantrips for a Champion, both your hands are going to be full. Action wise it doesn't work out. Utility magic is still useful, maybe through a Cleric, Bard or Sorcerer multiclass.
As far as know hands being full doesnt matter for any spells except material and some classes those dont even matter.
Combat cantrips would definitely be very situational. It would be nice to have a decent ranged option though.
If you want to have some spell casting archetypes are a great choice since you can get a lot of utility spells.
I don't really see any point in combat cantrips for a Champion, both your hands are going to be full. Action wise it doesn't work out. Utility magic is still useful, maybe through a Cleric, Bard or Sorcerer multiclass.
As far as know hands being full doesnt matter for any spells except material and some classes those dont even matter.
Yep. Which is why cantrips are actually better for sword and board. Switching between a longbow and a sword/shield is sloooow many actions. And champions probably have better charisma than dexterity.
I'm still confused. How is a Champion using Adapted Cantrip?
Dragon Spit! The only issue is that it's arcane so the proficiency isn't going up. I'm sure they want it as divine so they can use the champions divine spellcasting proficiency. For that I think you'd have to take a Wellspring Gnome and as a bonus, a flickmace makes sense. ;)
I don't really see any point in combat cantrips for a Champion, both your hands are going to be full. Action wise it doesn't work out. Utility magic is still useful, maybe through a Cleric, Bard or Sorcerer multiclass.
As far as know hands being full doesnt matter for any spells except material and some classes those dont even matter.
Combat cantrips would definitely be very situational. It would be nice to have a decent ranged option though.
If you want to have some spell casting archetypes are a great choice since you can get a lot of utility spells.
Yep fair enough. That part of what I said was wrong , most combat cantrips are just Verbal Somatic which means you can do them with hands full.
I still don't see that they are especially effective as they are not great attacks, and your magic ability is going to be several points down. As a back up I guess.
I'm still confused. How is a Champion using Adapted Cantrip?Dragon Spit! The only issue is that it's arcane so the proficiency isn't going up. I'm sure they want it as divine so they can use the champions divine spellcasting proficiency. For that I think you'd have to take a Wellspring Gnome and as a bonus, a flickmace makes sense. ;)
Yes, Wellspring Gnome would work. Choose the Divine tradition then use First World Magic to select Electric Arc. But Adapted Cantrip requires a spellcaster, and Champions don't qualify.
Thanks for all the ideas. I never thought about Ray of Frost, that would be superior to electric arc, at least for this character.
The character is dual class, cleric champion, so does qualify. But going to mix a few things up from the feed back here. I am trying to do too much with one character. Realized that my reactions will also be limited.
Thanks for the help.
In your pursuit of Cantrips, you might find this useful:
Gisher's Guide to Acquiring Common Cantrips
When you are seeking advice it is quite important to know more info about your character. We were going by the assumption you were just a Champion. A dual class Champion/Cleric is a whole different beast. Also group composition is helpful to know.
Dual classing is super unbalanced and more of just a fun thing. So I am sure it wont be important to optimize. In general Martial/Martial is the best optimized character dual class option.
The combination of full casting and free heal slots I really am not sure when you are going to find time to cast cantrips.
Most likely you can just spend time healing if you end up in a long range combat.
When you are seeking advice it is quite important to know more info about your character. We were going by the assumption you were just a Champion. A dual class Champion/Cleric is a whole different beast. Also group composition is helpful to know.
Dual classing is super unbalanced and more of just a fun thing. So I am sure it wont be important to optimize. In general Martial/Martial is the best optimized character dual class option which is why a lot of GMs dont allow it.
The combination of full casting and free heal slots I really am not sure when you are going to find time to cast cantrips.
Most likely you can just spend time healing if you end up in a long range combat. If you wanted to have long range options then I feel a Primal caster would make more sense then cleric.
|
If you're going with Dual Class I highly suggest Champion Sorcerer or Champion Bard and in this case you'll end up with so many options that you will RARELY ever even need to fall back on your weaker Cantrips since you plan on being a switch hitter anyhow and a Sorcerer or Bard on their own has enough longevity with Refocusing to make it through at least 3-4 encounters per day without needing to really rely on Cantrips with the exception of the Bard wanting to use their Compositions frequently.
I advise ditching Cleric unless you have no other characters in the party who will have access to some healing because you honestly wont need it and that's, frankly, the only real reason to use Cleric in a Dual Class party.
Other than that choosing Bard is a FANTASTIC option if no other players are choosing Bard... but yeah, as others said knowing that you are playing Dual Class pretty much changes things entirely so knowing what other players are using only leaves us with so much context.
I think Martial/Martial dual class goes a little bit beyond optimizing into "potentially game breaking," myself.