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They're still level 10, since it's only Heal spells. The wording prevents you from gaining additional 10th level spell slots in other ways, outside of the level 20 feat. Note this wording exists in the Bard Sorcerer Witch and Oracle 10th level slot ability. It's not changing anything, it's clarifying the ability and bringing it in line with other similar class abilities.
That wording should have been there all along.
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You gain additional spell slots each day at your highest level of cleric spell slots.
“You can’t use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots.
Looking at these two side by side... is "my highest level spell slot is 10th level so that's the level for my Font" the same as 'using this spell slot' for an ability that gives you more spell slot?
I think Cordell has a point, but at the same time at least personally I'm genuinely unsure about the intent.
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I double checked, because Cordell often has good points. But I can't say I agree. In my judgement, the rules are clear a level 19 Cleric gets nothing from their font. A level 20 cleric gets nothing either unless they take Maker of Miracles in which case their font functions again.
Yes I see that as wrong and wouldn't actually play like that. But the rules are not ambiguous.
For now I get by by ignoring all the special level 10 spell slot restrictions. They are unbalanced and weird. I really don't see that level 10 spells are that problematic, as I kind of want the game to be a little over the top at level 20 anyway. I can assure you my level 20 Fighter is over the top.
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10th level spell slots are a bit weird in that they are both meant to limit casting Wish and the likes too much, but on the otherhand you're expected to upcast some of your spells to keep them effective. A 9th-level slot will lag behind in damage, incapacitation and summoning.
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I double checked, because Cordell often has good points. But I can't say I agree. In my judgement, the rules are clear a level 19 Cleric gets nothing from their font. A level 20 cleric gets nothing either unless they take Maker of Miracles in which case their font functions again.
Yes I see that as wrong and wouldn't actually play like that. But the rules are not ambiguous.
If you look at the full text of the class feature it at least becomes ambiguous again.
You gain a single 10th-level spell slot and can prepare a spell in that slot using divine spellcasting. You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots.
You gain a 10th level spell slot. So when Divine Font asks what your highest level spell slot is, the answer is clearly '10th level'.
You can't use Miraculous Spell's 10th level spell slot for abilities that let you cast a spell without using a spell slot. You also can't use Miraculous Spell's 10th level spell slot for an ability that gives you more spell slots.
Divine Font clearly doesn't do the first one. Divine Font consumes spell slots when you cast a spell.
And it is questionable whether Divine Font does that second one or not. It can be argued that by looking at the 10th level spell slot when determining what level of spells to give for Divine Font that it is 'using' the Miraculous Spell's spell slot. But I don't think so. I think this wording would be better targeted towards things like Summoner's Master Summoner feat which removes the spell slot being 'used' and replaces it with two limited-use spell slots.
You don't gain more 10th-level spells as you level up, though you can take the Maker of Miracles feat to gain a second slot.
And this part does not prevent you from getting more 10th level spell slots generally. It just prevents you from getting more 10th level spell slots automatically as part of leveling up. It says "you don't", not "you can't".
So it can be argued to be ambiguous. And if it is ambiguous it definitely falls into the too bad to be true scenario that a Cleric loses all benefit from Divine Font when they reach level 19.
breithauptclan beat me to it and said it better than I did lol. I really don't see how divine font is "Using" the spell slot provided by Miraculous Spell. Imo to use something you have to, well, use it; Not just reference it.
The problem is that if Divine Font's wording allows this to happen there is a lot of other features this also applies to.
You gain additional spell slots each day at your highest level of cleric spell slots.
When you make your daily preparations, you can trade two spell slots of the same level for a bonus spell slot of up to 2 levels higher than the traded spell slots. You can exchange as many spell slots as you have available. Bonus spell slots must be of a level you can normally cast, and each bonus spell slot must be of a different spell level.
You gain an additional spell slot of your highest level, which you can use only to cast summon animal or summon plants or fungus.
In this case if referencing the top spell slot is not using it then I guess only Drain Bonded Item is blocked by this feature?
The problem is that if Divine Font's wording allows this to happen there is a lot of other features this also applies to.
You gain additional spell slots each day at your highest level of cleric spell slots.When you make your daily preparations, you can trade two spell slots of the same level for a bonus spell slot of up to 2 levels higher than the traded spell slots. You can exchange as many spell slots as you have available. Bonus spell slots must be of a level you can normally cast, and each bonus spell slot must be of a different spell level.You gain an additional spell slot of your highest level, which you can use only to cast summon animal or summon plants or fungus.In this case if referencing the top spell slot is not using it then I guess only Drain Bonded Item is blocked by this feature?
The problem with this argument is that it's effectively begging the question. Seeing the quoted abilities as a problem if they have the ability to give you another 10th level spell slot assumes that the feature is supposed to block you from gaining 10th level spell slots from features, which is what is currently being discussed.
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This time Aw3som3-117 got here first.
Yeah, I am fine with Spell Blending or Primal Evolution giving a 10th level spell slot. Neither of those breaks the restrictions as they are written.
Granted, I think this whole thing needs another editing pass. I don't think that the RAW is actually working as intended.
For example, a Cleric can pick up Summoner archetype and gain Master Summoner at level 12. At level 19 when they get Miraculous Spell and their 1st 10th level spell slot, they can't use Master Summoner on it to get two 10th level summoning spells. But at 20th level if the pick up Maker of Miracles and get a second 10th level spell slot, then they can use Master Summoner on that other spell slot because it doesn't have the restrictions on it.
Which is just strange.
I think the rules for how 10th level spell slots work should be a general rule rather than having to be written into every feat and feature that gives one.
Though that would probably prevent Spell Blending from working to get a 10th level spell slot.
I think this line or argument is inventing a technicality that makes the limit on 10th level spells pointless to non existant. Taking the rule from stopping everything to stopping nothing.
"Abilities" can be anything even feats and spells.
Splitting hairs on "uses" as opposed to "references" is the sort of principle that makes an entire rule book turn to soft meaningless mush. Especially one that is explicitly written in natural language.
I don't think the technicality exists. Almost everything is stopped by the current wording.
But your outcome is the same place. The rules are functionally broken. They need to be fixed. Even if I accepted your argument I would still come to the same conclusion - ignore all these restrictions till they are errated.
Unfortunately they have already looked at them once and insisted on adding them to the new classes. Just wrong. The best approach would be the reverse. Remove all these rules from the game.
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Splitting hairs on "uses" as opposed to "references" is the sort of principle that makes an entire rule book turn to soft meaningless mush. Especially one that is explicitly written in natural language.
I don't think the technicality exists. Almost everything is stopped by the current wording.
Still, the ambiguity is there. 'use' can mean to consume - like it does for potions, scrolls, or the spell slot that you cast a spell from. But 'use' can also mean utilize - like it does when you use a sword to make a Strike.
And in the face of that ambiguity, I can't justify stripping the Cleric of Divine Font spell slots once they reach level 19. It just doesn't make any sense.
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As for the intent of the restrictions on level 10 spell slots: As I said, I think it should be a general rule. Something along the line of preventing interaction with level 10 spell slots from anything that increases or otherwise modifies your spell slots or allows casting spells without consuming a spell slot. Unless the feat or ability specifically says that it does so for level 10 spell slots. Also allowing existing spell slots to be heightened to 10th level for things like Divine Font, cantrips, and focus spells.
So Master Summoner shouldn't work with the first or the second level 10 spell slot that a Cleric gets. Spell Blending shouldn't be able to give 10th level spell slots. Things like that.
Yes but then you have arbitrarily included features for some classes and not others, based on some very dubious readings. I don't agree that this wording allows Divine font at all anyway.
Healing Font: You gain additional spell slots each day at your highest level of cleric spell slots
You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots
Divine font is an ability that gives you more spell slots. A 19th level cleric doesn't otherwise have a 10th level spell slot.
Still a firm no from me. I see what you are trying to do but for me it doesn't hold water.
You are better off arguing about the "*" in the cleric spell chart that still exists against 10th level spells.
If fact really I think the whole point of these rules was for the designers to say in text that level 19 clerics don't get 2 level 10 slots, and level 20 clerics don't get 3 level 10 slots. Which is what you would expect from the regular extrapolation of the spell slot table(Table 3–9: Cleric Spells per Day on page 120).
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Oh, at this point I am not actually debating RAW at all any more. My take on RAW is still that it is ambiguous and somewhat borked. It allows things that shouldn't work and prevents things that should work.
That last section of my previous post was my take on RAI. The half-baked houserule that I would run with if I happened to have a Cleric in a game I was running. Or other high level spellcaster that had 10th level spell slots (none of our games have ever gotten up to 19th level characters). Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
My idea for Divine Font is that while it is giving you more spell slots, it does so explicitly and it does so from 1st level. You aren't gaining an increased number of extra spell slots between 18th and 19th level - those existing spell slots are increasing in power. Much like a cantrip or focus spell does. Definitely not RAW, but that is how I think of it.
Oh, at this point I am not actually debating RAW at all any more. My take on RAW is still that it is ambiguous and somewhat borked. It allows things that shouldn't work and prevents things that should work.
That last section of my previous post was my take on RAI. The half-baked houserule that I would run with if I happened to have a Cleric in a game I was running. Or other high level spellcaster that had 10th level spell slots (none of our games have ever gotten up to 19th level characters). Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
My idea for Divine Font is that while it is giving you more spell slots, it does so explicitly and it does so from 1st level. You aren't gaining an increased number of extra spell slots between 18th and 19th level - those existing spell slots are increasing in power. Much like a cantrip or focus spell does. Definitely not RAW, but that is how I think of it.
This is how I see it too. I allow Divine Font to scale to 10th level. It's the main attraction of the cleric and shouldn't be limited.
Another option that I kinda like is to prevent anything from interacting with 10th level spell slots at all unless they specifically say that they interact.
At that point none of the feats and features (Spell Blending, Master Summoner, Drain Bonded Item, ...) work with level 10 slots.
But, Divine Font also doesn't look at level 10 slots when determining what level to heighten to. So you still get your full amount of spell slots - they are just still at level 9. Cantrips and focus spells would also cap at 9th level.
It is also a viable houserule that removes ambiguity and makes everything functional. I just like the first option better because 10th level spells are cool. The difference in power between 9th and 10th level for cantrips, focus spells, and Divine Font slots is not enough to worry about.
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You gain additional spell slots each day at your highest level of cleric spell slots.
You gain an additional spell slot of your highest level, which you can use only to cast summon animal or summon plants or fungus.
During daily preparations, you can designate one of your spell slots to become two summoning slots of the same spell level, from which you can cast only summoning or incarnate spells.
When you make your daily preparations, you can trade two spell slots of the same level for a bonus spell slot of up to 2 levels higher than the traded spell slots.
During your turn, you gain the ability to cast one spell you prepared today and already cast, without spending a spell slot.
You can't use this spell slot for abilities that let you cast spells without expending spell slots or that give you more spell slots.
I interpret the object of the sentence being "this spell slot" rather than "this spell level" and the use of the word "for" rather than "with" to mean I can't use that spell slot to power any ability that lets me gain more spell slots (e.g., breaking down a higher spell slot for multiple lower level slots) or to be cast without expending a spell slot.
Drain Bonded Item is word for word using the slot for casting a spell without expending a spell slot, so it does not work.
Master Summoner does not work because it is using that spell slot to become 2 spell slots.
Spell Blending appears to work because it doesn't use that spell slot, it uses the 8th/9th level spell slots below it.
Both Divine Font and Primal Evolution grant you spell slots at the highest level you can cast, which at the point in question is 10th. They're not using that 10th level spell slot (or any 10th level slot) to give you more spell slots. The class feature/feat is giving you the additional slots.
At least, that's how I ready it after reading through this thread and the various abilities in question.
EDIT: If the alternative interpretation where the slot is being treated the same as being able to cast 10th level spells, thus things like Divine Font can't grant you Heal spells heightened to 10th level because it grants you more 10th level slots, then by the same logic the feats that grant you a 2nd 10th level slot wouldn't work, either.
Drain Bonded Item is word for word using the slot for casting a spell without expending a spell slot, so it does not work.
Master Summoner does not work because it is using that spell slot to become 2 spell slots.
Spell Blending appears to work because it doesn't use that spell slot, it uses the 8th/9th level spell slots below it.
Both Divine Font and Primal Evolution grant you spell slots at the highest level you can cast, which at the point in question is 10th. They're not using that 10th level spell slot (or any 10th level slot) to give you more spell slots. The class feature/feat is giving you the additional slots.
At least, that's how I ready it after reading through this thread and the various abilities in question.
That is my reading of RAW as well.
Though, as I mentioned, it is a little strange that some abilities work and others don't. And some abilities that don't work with the first 10th level spell slot do work with the second one.
If the alternative interpretation where the slot is being treated the same as being able to cast 10th level spells, thus things like Divine Font can't grant you Heal spells heightened to 10th level because it grants you more 10th level slots, then by the same logic the feats that grant you a 2nd 10th level slot wouldn't work, either.
Well, except for the explicit exception in the restrictions that allows those feats to work.
That is my reading of RAW as well.
Though, as I mentioned, it is a little strange that some abilities work and others don't.
I don't find that strange at all, personally. The way I see it if Paizo wanted to make a blanket rule that 10th level spells are OP and you can't get more they could have, but instead they decided that only a couple restrictions were necessary. Note that I haven't actually seen someone complaining about the power level of 10th level spells relative to 9th level spells. It seems like the main argument is that "well, Paizo's limiting it, so they must want to limit it a lot", which I disagree with and don't see in the current wording. It's a minor limitation that currently only exists on a couple abilities, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that, and it's nice to have it on all the casters for completeness in case more free-casting or trade spell slots abilities are introduced later.
And some abilities that don't work with the first 10th level spell slot do work with the second one.
I don't see this as an issue either for one main reason: it costs a 20th level feat. Let's not forget that. That is huge