How to bind a god?


Advice


Im a paladin playing in the Reign of Winter Campaign. I've been bound to help Baba Yaga dethrone the winter witch queen, which puts me in a bit of a tough spot because if I help an evil god return to power, my paladin could fall. My thought was that because my paladin took an Oath of the People's Council, I could demand as payment Baba Yaga sets up a "bill of rights" kind of thing (protections for the people), and a fair and just judiciary to ensure the common folk's rights are protected.

The issue would be how could I bind a god to such a demand? Especially an evil powerful spell casting god?

I will have really good Use Magic Device by that level (level 17 I'm told), so I should be able to use any level scroll from any class. I just need to make sure she can't yoink the agreement back after I've fulfilled my part of the bargain.

Any ideas?


There are no rules that will guarantee anything successful.

You're really going to have to work with your GM and ask them if something of this magnitude is even possible.

You're basically asking, how can I force Baba Yaga to stick to her word, assuming she agrees to it in the first place.

Honestly, the easiest path forward (in my opinion) is to help Baba Yaga because she is better than the alternative, and convince her to agree to set up protections for the common people by whatever arguments necessary. At that point you've done the best you can do really.

Seek an atonement for your role in restoring Baba Yaga to power over her more overtly evil daughter (IIRC).

Attempts to force Baba Yaga to be magically compelled to uphold some bargain are likely to just end up with you (and probably others) getting more screwed before its done.


Too much cheese.


Baba Yaga is not a capital G God. She's just a very powerful mythic character. Doing her a favor to get rid of an overtly evil daughter is fine.

More importantly, Baba Yaga is generally a woman of her word. So compulsion shouldn't really be necessary or an atonement. Baba Yaga isn't a ruler by nature so she's unlikely to actually stick around either. Just make sure you pay her the proper respects and she should acquiesce to a reasonable request in exchange.


Why is your Paladin helping Baba Yaga?


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Why is your Paladin helping Baba Yaga?

Because that is the main storyline of the Reign of Winter AP.


Alternately, do by your order's code as best and as wisely as you can. Being a paladin is about playing the conflict between morals and ethics. If this path should lead to falling, either enjoy the opportunity to play the fall and the fallen knight, philosophising about the true aspect of a deity that rejected you for doing good or, if playing a fall doesn't interest you, talk about it with the game-master as a meta-game discussion. Roleplay it as praying for guidance, in particular about what would acceptable behaviour in dealing with Baba-Yaga and what would be outstanding behaviour in dealing with her. The real-world prayer by Niebuhr, asking for «courage to change what must be altered, serenity to accept what cannot be helped, and the insight to know the one from the other.» is a good example.
Your character probably knows much more theology than you do, allowing you the player to decide knowingly whether the character takes that would lead to falling.

Playing a paladin in a campaign about the lesser of two evils is a great introspective role-play opportunity, embrace it.


Meirril wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Why is your Paladin helping Baba Yaga?
Because that is the main storyline of the Reign of Winter AP.

Well, then why is the OP even asking? Is the OP even playing a game or reading a book?

Helping Baba Yaga doe not in and of itself means the Paladin will fall. What matters more are motivations. When Xena the Warrior Princess fought alonside the diesmpowered Ares to back to godhood, it was not an evil act. She realized the world needed a god of war because without one there would be no peace, and Ares was actually the best person for the job. When Buffy and Spike worked together in the 2nd season of Buffy, it was because the world was about to be destroyed, and Spike realized, even as a vampire, he did not want the world to be destroyed. Motivated to save the world, Buffy working with Spike was not an evil act.

If the Paladin is helping Baba Yaga because of a railroading GM, then who even cares if it falls?

If the OP is roleplaying their character in a roleplaying game, then they are the one who gives their Paladin their motivations, not the Reign of Winter storyline.

I'm asking the player.


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Agénor wrote:
Being a paladin is about playing the conflict between morals and ethics. If this path should lead to falling, either enjoy the opportunity to play the fall and the fallen knight, philosophising about the true aspect of a deity that rejected you for doing good or, if playing a fall doesn't interest you, talk about it with the game-master as a meta-game discussion.

I'd go a step further: A paladin is about doing good and just no matter the price for themselves. If they do the right thing and fall for it, SO BE IT.

Of course there are many valid takes on how a paladin should be. But be careful not to mix your desires as a player (keeping class features) and the character's motivations.


If she was a God, you'd be flat out of luck. I actually really don't believe even a god can bind another.

No matter : she is very much not one.
She is however way, way too powerful for you to do anything about it.
You could talk to her, negotiate and trust her to hold her end, and that'd be your best bet. Considering the scale of her operations, there's little for her to gain in turning on you, random paladin from one world amongst many. It's just easier for her to do her part, and not that costly.

But really, you're geased to help her. And what she's asking of you isn't even all that bad : ousting an evil queen means at worse nothing, if the replacement is as bad, at best progress, if the new one's better. And that comes with the bonus of Baba Yaga owing you one, which potentially you can leverage. Even if she "forgets" once you've done your job, you've tried.

You're doing a job you have no option of refusing, with a chance of being a positive influence on a country that badly needs it.
If you end up falling for that, the issue is not here.


Wow this post blew up.

I'm asking because my GM (very graciously) suggested I brainstorm creatives ways to still accomplish the goal and avoid falling, if I choose to avoid falling. Nothing is "set in stone" as far as falling, I don't think. He just saw a potential hiccup in the future and reminded me out of game that I need to keep the code in mind. I really appreciated the heads up, honestly. I would prefer not to fall, considering my paladin's history and my hoped-for trajectory.

My idea was this compromise of sorts, to get as much good as I can out of the bargain.

It sounds like the consensus is that I cannot really force her hand - but it doesn't mean I can't still try my best to persuade her this is a fair trade. I think that's the route I will go. I will try to maximize my diplomacy as much as I can so that when the time comes, I can persuade her of the value of keeping this promise (Perhaps I can make the bargain seem worthwhile: a people who believe their god is protecting them is less likely to rebel, less likely to accept a "usurper queen", etc., while also seeing the benefits to the common folk)

Thanks for the input, all.


Ariantar wrote:

Wow this post blew up.

I'm asking because my GM (very graciously) suggested I brainstorm creatives ways to still accomplish the goal and avoid falling, if I choose to avoid falling. Nothing is "set in stone" as far as falling, I don't think. He just saw a potential hiccup in the future and reminded me out of game that I need to keep the code in mind. I really appreciated the heads up, honestly. I would prefer not to fall, considering my paladin's history and my hoped-for trajectory.

My idea was this compromise of sorts, to get as much good as I can out of the bargain.

It sounds like the consensus is that I cannot really force her hand - but it doesn't mean I can't still try my best to persuade her this is a fair trade. I think that's the route I will go. I will try to maximize my diplomacy as much as I can so that when the time comes, I can persuade her of the value of keeping this promise (Perhaps I can make the bargain seem worthwhile: a people who believe their god is protecting them is less likely to rebel, less likely to accept a "usurper queen", etc., while also seeing the benefits to the common folk)

Thanks for the input, all.

I don't know Reign of Winter, but I do know a thing or 2 about Baba Yaga. I don't think you can force Baba Yaga, either. You also can't debate or bargain with her. You might sweet-talk her a little. You might get her to like you.

I guess what you need to do is analyze what she wants you to do, decide if you are capable of it, and consider the consequences for the world if she gets what she wants. That's what will reflect on your character's honor and soul.

If it's more like Baba Yaga put a spell on you, and you have no choice, then you will fall from grace, but that's the kind of thing you can atone for.


Quote:
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Sounds like your paladin is ok to work with Baba Yaga, but you may need to seek out an occasional atonement as determined by you and your GM


The question is not whether Baba Yaga is personally evil, because that is a known fact. Nor is it whether she is more or less personally evil than the witch she opposes. Each has committed sufficient atrocities to merit death from any given paladin, if the paladin could only manage it.

The three questions in this particular instance are 1) which of them poses the biggest threat to the people the paladin must attempt to defend, 2) whether the paladin has the ability to oppose the greater threat without simultaneously aiding the lesser threat, and 3) whether the paladin would be compromised in working with an evil ally. I think you are only asking about that third one.

As a GM and as a player, I don't believe a paladin can justify taking immoral actions toward a goal, however that desirable that goal might be. Nor could a paladin condone evil actions taken by others toward said goal. One thing a paladin very definitely cannot do is sacrifice his or her own beliefs. As Melkiador stated above, an occasional atonement would likely be necessary in this case. The line between tenuous partnership and collaboration is frequently not neon-bright.

I doubt it would be possible to force Baba Yaga into any agreement, and any attempt to trick her probably would go exceptionally poorly (even if that weren't dishonorable, and therefore usually off the table for most paladins in most circumstances). Moreover, she isn't a devil to be bound by a tricky loophole and even if you could somehow twist her to your will, making a being like that mad is a bad idea. It's incredibly easy for a powerful evil being to get revenge on a paladin, if that is a goal. You do it by hurting others.

However, you might perhaps aim or hope to gain her grudging favor. Not for your abilities, of course. A CR 30 mythical Queen of Witches won't be moved by much in that regard. But perhaps she'd be impressed by honor and steadfastness. She has lived an incredibly long life without seeing a lot of that from humanity. If you made clear that you were asking nothing for yourself, but that your aid was conditional on her word that she would permit modest reform, she might consider you an idiot but respect you for it nonetheless. A lot depends on how the write-up on her in the AP defines her character. Your GM obviously can't come out and tell you, but perhaps there is someone in your PC's party who has a knowledge (local) skill high enough to give you a window into her personality that could prove useful in this regard. Does she pride herself on keeping her pledged word? Is she actually repulsed by goodness, or so jaded and cynical she doesn't believe it exists and that it is only a mask for hypocrisy? What are her ultimate goals? To what exent does the misery of the common people factor into them? If the answer is "not much", maybe she would be indifferent to many things the paladin might request (which is a lot better than hostile).

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