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As somebody who's grappled for most of my life, it really triggers me that people keep ringing up martial arts not relying on strength. BJJ and Judo both explicitly have weight classes because of how much strength and weight distribution matter. And unless you think you're going to imanari roll an orc I dont see how it's that relevant in a weapons based system to begin with.
Seriously. Try rolling with someone who's 40 lbs lighter than you or has no muscle mass. Tripping is absolutely a move that requires strength as well as technique, and it shows when you give against people significantly weaker or stronger than you.
Your experience with BJJ is not unique. I was a practitioner for quite a while.
And yes, I agree weight does play a factor, I rolled with a guy that was in fact about 40lbs above me several times (and my teacher was even higher than that).
Regardless, an Arm bar is still an arm bar, a guillitine is still a guillitine, and a hip-toss is NOT a STR based moved (you literally pivot and use your hip for the lift).
I am not saying Grapples shouldn't be STR based, I am saying there are maneuvers that are not STR based and its one of the reasons that people generally learn BJJ in the first place because it has holds/tosses/etc. that a person who IS smaller can use on a larger opponent.
And this is a game. 1 to 1 realism isn't a requirement, its more important that themes/concepts are able to live in the game.
My point is with the proper training, yes, DEX maneuvers should be possible and they do in fact exist even in real life martial arts.
There are quite a few people on these forums with MA experience as far as I know, so I wouldn't assume your experience in MMA/MA gives you any kind of inherent knowledge over others here.
For the record, I am all for DEX maneuvers becoming a thing in PF2 if gated behind specific training / techniques.
However, I do not see them as readily available to anyone who trains in Athletics.
There are lots of things STR based characters can do, even other maneuvers that DEX characters couldn't (grapple/shove). And of course Damage.
Not to mention the other aspects of Athletics, which are still important (Break, Climb, Swim, Jump).
Shove and Grapple are extremely circumstancial. Trip is the one maneuver everyone wants.
Climb, Swim and Jump are only useful at low level. At high level, they become way less important.Damage-wise Barbarian blows Rogue out of the water even if we assume higher than regular sneak attacks.
A Thief Rogue does 85-90% of a Dragon Barbarian damage. So, yes, the Barbarian is better, but it doesn't blow the Rogue out of the water.
Maneuvers is the only thing Strength give. So I'm very reluctant on giving maneuvers to Dexterity (especially Trip).
For the record, I am all for DEX maneuvers becoming a thing in PF2 if gated behind specific training / techniques.However, I do not see them as readily available to anyone who trains in Athletics.
And I welcome that approach.
Shove and Grapple are extremely circumstancial. Trip is the one maneuver everyone wants.
Climb, Swim and Jump are only useful at low level. At high level, they become way less important.
What is circumstancial about immobilizing/flat-footed an opponent or denying an additional action?
Both of those maneuvers are extremely strong. If you add a Cliff or some kind of positional side-effect to being in the same square, they only grow in value.
As for Trip being "the best", it's literally only better than Disarm because Disarm is, well, a pretty terrible maneuver at the moment.
A Thief Rogue does 85-90% of a Dragon Barbarian damage. So, yes, the Barbarian is better, but it doesn't blow the Rogue out of the water.
Right, the Thief Rogue. The highest damage DEX class in the game at the moment is still behind the Barbarian by 15%.
It's not like Fighters some how are chump change to it either or even Rangers (purely because of the number of attacks they can make).
And that's when they have Sneak Attack, which isn't guaranteed.
I'll let you define "blown out of the water", but they are objectively lower and 15% is a substantial amount of damage to be behind when you consider it without Sneak Attack.
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The problem is that strength, as a statistic, is useful but only barely.
Literally all it does is:
- accuracy with melee weapons
- bonus damage
- athletics
- expands the class of useable weapons and armor
- carrying capacity
You start making strength less necessary for some of these things and you run the risk of making strength obsolete.
Some people might want to look into the "Alternative Ability Scores" variant in the GMG. Specifically, this does:
- Eliminates Constitution, everything Con does is now covered by strength.
- Dex is split into "Dexterity" and "Agility". Dexterity covers thievery, ranged attacks, accuracy with finesse weapons and adds to damage rolls with finesse weapons (if dex>str). Agility covers armor class, reflex, stealth, and acrobatics.
What is circumstancial about immobilizing/flat-footed an opponent or denying an additional action?Shove and Grapple are extremely circumstancial. Trip is the one maneuver everyone wants.
Climb, Swim and Jump are only useful at low level. At high level, they become way less important.
Grapple asks you to drop your weapon or to have a free hand. So, you don't drop your weapon to immobilize and flat-foot an opponent unless there's a very good reason for that. And very few builds have a free hand.
Shove is even more circumstancial.And both Grapple and Shove target the highest save.
I've rarely seen Grapples or Shoves, but I've seen many Trips.
The highest damage DEX class in the game at the moment is still behind the Barbarian by 15%.
Fine, my example was bad.
What I mean is that Strength becomes a pretty useless stat if you give the best of it to Dexterity. I don't think you can have balanced stats, but at least each stat should have a nice thing to do. As every character is supposed to increase either Dex or Str for AC, giving maneuvers (especially Trip) to Dexterity completely removes the incentive in putting any point in Strength unless you are a melee martial.
I agree that there's not much incentive in increasing Strength for a non-martial, but being good at maneuvers is still something that can be used sometimes. That's why I think the choice of not having Dex-based maneuvers is a balance one (even if it doesn't make much sense).
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STR is not and will never be a "useless stat" and I've yet to see anything that backs that up. DEX is "useless" too if you want to go by that logic because DEX doesn't govern AC anymore unless you don't have armor proficiency and it only governs Reflex besides that (and again, there are ways to approach the Reflex save).
Not to mention, some Classes are required to go STR or encouraged via other means (Heavy Armor or Class Ability).
We're enforcing standards of PF1/3.5 on premises that no longer exist in PF2. There's a LOT of reasons to want STR in this edition (heck, look at Intimidating Prowess).
You can't just say "yeah but if DEX could use Trip, STR would mean nothing!" when a bunch of people 2 months ago were already doing that without ever having an issue.
Trip requires a free-hand as well unless you use a weapon which restricts your damage die/traits.
Shove denies an action because you presumably have to move after the fact to continue to do what you were originally doing.
Saying "Fortitude is the best save" is generally true, but it's certainly not absolute.
I built a characte for a friend that spent 14gp on a composite shortbow at lvl 1 xD. Being a Monk helped.I understand there. Of course, that's a bit of an if. I'd rather not stake my build on that. Also, you need either chain shirt (five gold), scale (four), chainmail (six), or breastplate (eight). So that's six gold on your starting armour at minimum.If the DM allows armored skirts then you can transform medium armor into heavy for 2gp raising AC by 1 and lowering the dex cap by 1, strength requirement by 2,...I just realized something else.
All the talk of having +4 or +5 from armour only comes into play either if you're a Mountain Stance monk or after you've played a while. The cheapest heavy armour is 13 gold, and while I only have the 'starting at higher level' chart to work with you have to survive first level before you can actually afford that (or just buy splint mail and punch stuff since you can only afford that and your pack). It's fine to theorize about how neat you'll be in heavy armour, but you're starting out in medium.
Sinking a few points into Dexterity for a Strength build starts to sound a little better now.
Heh. That it would. Of course, that build is viable because you can Dex to shoot and Dex to kick when you need to. I've thought of putting together a shooty monk build but haven't gotten to it. That actually sounds more feasible than my earlier mention of blowing thirteen gold on splint armour and gauntleting your way for the first adventure.
STR is not and will never be a "useless stat" and I've yet to see anything that backs that up. DEX is "useless" too if you want to go by that logic because DEX doesn't govern AC anymore unless you don't have armor proficiency and it only governs Reflex besides that (and again, there are ways to approach the Reflex save).
Dex governs AC and Reflex save (that you can ignore if you go for a full plate) but also Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery and ranged attacks. If there was a way to use other stats for these 3 skills and for ranged attacks I would agree with you that Dex would be useless outside Dex-based classes.
Str governs maneuvers, melee attacks and heavish armors. So, if you increase Dex (which is common), you can ignore Str for everything but maneuvers. So if you can access maneuvers through Dexterity, it makes Str useless outside Str-based classes.Anyway, I was just giving my opinion, which is I find it fine to have maneuvers governed by Str. And it's just an opinion.
Guess my Dual-Wielding Dex 18 Flurry Ranger with two Dogslicers (Agile, and Finesse to say the least) is an invalid character despite being eligible to use the Twin-Takedown Feat.
The word invalid was maybe a bit too strong. I just meant that the system doesn't support Finesse Ranger. I don't mean you can't build one, and that you can't be satisfied with your character. I just mean that if you're not, you shouldn't complain as you are building a character that isn't really supported.
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The problem and its a minor one is that your strength 18 ranger would be doing nearly double the damage.
Even at 1st level it's more like half again assuming Str 12 on the Dex guy (a reasonable assumption since the Str 18 guy needs Dex 12 for AC), since in practice that's 1d6+5 vs. 1d6+2 (both including Backstabber). 5.5 vs. 8.5 is a little bigger than a 50%, but it's way smaller than the 100% that would equate to doubling.
And by 5th, that's down quite a bit, since the difference is now 2d6+5 vs. 2d6+3. That's 20% more damage, which isn't nothing, but is a pretty sharp drop off.
And that difference only gets smaller as level rises, though it does so slower thereafter. Assuming the Dex character maxes at Str 18, and the Str one at 24, by 20th, the damage difference is 7d6+6 vs. 7d6+9, and a difference of something like 10%, and that and +3 to Athletics are the only real advantages.
A 10% damage differential is real, but so is +3 to Reflex Saves (assuming a mirrored situation where the Str guy goes to Dex 18), Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery.
It's a real difference for the first three levels, but not crippling even then (1d6+2 isn't great damage, but if you get it multiple times it's okay, and a Flurry Ranger often will), and the difference peters off quick.
That claim assumes the dex ranger is str 10, I guess. There's no damage dice advantage since the flurry ranger has to use an agile weapon anyways so the best you can get is 1d6, finesse or no. If the goblin is 18 dex/ 14 str that is a perfectly serviceable character.
Ninja'd by DMW, who is better at math
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Dex governs AC and Reflex save (that you can ignore if you go for a full plate) but also Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery and ranged attacks. If there was a way to use other stats for these 3 skills and for ranged attacks I would agree with you that Dex would be useless outside Dex-based classes.
A single character with good Dex character can cover for the party by leveling up Acrobatics, Stealth and Thievery: follow the expert covers Acrobatics and Stealth while you generally don't need multiple people with Thievery.
As to ranged, the humble Bola fixes some issues. Ranged Trip can bring down flying targets and disadvantage land based ones you can't reach. Limited range is a problem but Far Shot can get you 40'. Plus you can keep it lower than your normal weapon for Potency runes and you only have to add Returning so it's not too expensive.
So you might have to jump through some hoops, but you can manage pretty well without dex.
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A single character with good Dex character can cover for the party by leveling up Acrobatics, Stealth and Thievery
Yes, and that's fine. You can ignore Dexterity, but there is an incentive in increasing Dexterity (being that character that everyone follows).
In my opinion, the sweetest spot for an attribute: Interesting but not mandatory. As a side note, I really like 4E saves that are shared among multiple attributes.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dex governs AC and Reflex save (that you can ignore if you go for a full plate) but also Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery and ranged attacks. If there was a way to use other stats for these 3 skills and for ranged attacks I would agree with you that Dex would be useless outside Dex-based classes.A single character with good Dex character can cover for the party by leveling up Acrobatics, Stealth and Thievery: follow the expert covers Acrobatics and Stealth while you generally don't need multiple people with Thievery.
As to ranged, the humble Bola fixes some issues. Ranged Trip can bring down flying targets and disadvantage land based ones you can't reach. Limited range is a problem but Far Shot can get you 40'. Plus you can keep it lower than your normal weapon for Potency runes and you only have to add Returning so it's not too expensive.
So you might have to jump through some hoops, but you can manage pretty well without dex.
just to point out that Acrobatics can often be required in combat by everyone who is melee.
just the other day the party i was running was having a fight in uneven ground and both strength melees kept falling on their butt while trying to move and position.
even simple "loose gravel" has a DC of 20 according to the guidelines (static expert DC)
Stealth is also one that the whole party needs to roll at times. Both for bypassing encounters and rolling effectively on initiative in ambush scenarios. Follow the Expert helps but it works in addition to good dex, not instead of.
Really the only dex skill that you can almost always rely on one person for is thievery.
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As somebody who's grappled for most of my life, it really triggers me that people keep ringing up martial arts not relying on strength. BJJ and Judo both explicitly have weight classes because of how much strength and weight distribution matter. And unless you think you're going to imanari roll an orc I dont see how it's that relevant in a weapons based system to begin with.
Seriously. Try rolling with someone who's 40 lbs lighter than you or has no muscle mass. Tripping is absolutely a move that requires strength as well as technique, and it shows when you give against people significantly weaker or stronger than you.
Haha, Imanari rolling an orc - with a greataxe in hand (I mean the orc...)! xD
I absolutely agree. I have some years of experience in Karate, Krav Maga and still practicing BJJ.
If I had to go to war (without guns), I'd definitely grab my heavyweight training partners, maybe a few middleweights, but not the lighter ones.
Dexterity is the best stat anyway, and it really bugs me that you get dex to damage in 5e. Apart from the not so much liked real world example, dex is good enough anyway.
So if you wanna do damage, get strong and grab a big and heavy pointy stick (e.g. greatsword).
So the finesse weapons and attack rolls with dex makes sense, but not dex to damage. Maybe some precision damage extra, but that should require some extra skill / feat / whatever.
I've seen it in 5e with my players: not many strength fighters/paladins anymore, why take strength when you can do it all with the "über-stat" dex?
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As a side note, I really like 4E saves that are shared among multiple attributes.
If the game had 4E saves DEX would certainly be weak enough to allow some help other places, and INT would finally be a stat that people actually might want (Wizard and in particular Alchemist would feel so much better).
Passive Perception and Saves were the two 4E mechanics that I didn't see that I kinda wanted to.
In general, ability score freedom is something that I really enjoy because it ups the permutations of viability across the board. If it's not too expensive to afford X, then you can probably pull off Y.
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I think the arguments that Acrobatics/Stealth are "some things you need to do all the time", isn't quite framing things the way they actually work out for parties without them.
Those are tactics that people pursue when they have Stealth and Acrobatics, not things they do in spite of having bad statistics.
It's really kinda the same as Darkvision for Stealth. If everyone isn't good at Stealth, then your party isn't going to be trying to ambush very many people.
And in my current parties, I have a Druid and a Barbarian and an Angelic Sorcerer.
Could they all afford Stealth? Potentially, but the expectation isn't there (at least from me).
So in the end, it just leads to different tactics for the party when approaching an encounter (not to mention, stealthing past every encounter isn't even something my tables want to do in and out of character).
Acrobatics on gravel would matter sure, if they couldn't just jump over it using Jump or navigate via some other way or simply attack someone else. Are there times when it's unavoidable? Sure. But how often?
The frequency of getting STR to hit on a Strike:
Whenever you make a melee strike
The frequency of getting damage on a Strike:
Any time you land a Thrown, Propulsion, or Melee Strike
The frequency of using Bulk:
Whenever you are carrying anything.
The frequency of being able to do an Athletics Maneuver:
Whenever you have an action, a free-hand/weapon, and are within reach of an opponent
Does everyone see how much more often the above happens than "What if we want to Stealth past an encounter?" "What if the ground is uneven?" and "What if there's a Fireball coming our way?"
The answer is a lot more often.
And if we're saying the downsides of the latter outweigh the positives of the former, I just don't see how one could argue that.
STR benefits occur often and frequently, particularly with the people who go STR.
If I told you I'll give you 1,000 dollars a day, but 4 times a month I'm taking 3,000 dollars away, then I still netted 18,000.
To me, STR is paying out higher dividends on the day to day for STR users than DEX is for DEX users.
And a DEX user is missing out on STR whenever they:
- Land a Strike
- Want to make an Athletics check
- Are carrying Anything
Where as the STR user is missing out on DEX whenever they:
- Are subject to a Reflex save (but hey, you have more CON)
- Have to make an Acrobatics/Thievery/Stealth check (which most of the time is a character choice, not a requirement)
- Have to make a Ranged attack (dependent on the person once again).
It's the same issue that PF1 Rogue had with Evasion vs. Ninja Ki Pool.
The former is a great ability, but it's a conditional ability that derives value based on how many times you are subject to something that allows Evasion.
The latter is a great ability, and it's not conditional. You control the agency of the when/how it gets used.
Personally, to me, abilities like the latter are always going to seem stronger than the former because the former is generally subject to chance. No one is ACTIVELY trying to be the subject of a Reflex save, they might prepare for one or be the "best" at having to take one (such as a Trap) but that's something they want to avoid.
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A single character with good Dex character can cover for the party by leveling up Acrobatics, Stealth and Thievery: follow the expert covers Acrobatics and Stealth while you generally don't need multiple people with Thievery.
I mean, Follow The Expert gives a bonus rather than replacing the stat. Acrobatics and Stealth are still way higher on the second high Dex character than they are on a Str-based character, which is particularly relevant for Stealth.
It also allows both characters to take some non-Dex Skills as they level up, since they can split the load on the Dex-based ones. Which is relevant.
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Stealth is also one that the whole party needs to roll at times. Both for bypassing encounters and rolling effectively on initiative in ambush scenarios. Follow the Expert helps but it works in addition to good dex, not instead of.
Really the only dex skill that you can almost always rely on one person for is thievery.
Follow the Expert does the heavy lifting for Initiative and Stealth and you can also roll Perception if you if you know you're going to be detected anyway. I'm in no way saying extra dex isn't good, just that it's not as huge a negative in those skills to have a lower dex than it might seem.
just to point out that Acrobatics can often be required in combat by everyone who is melee.
just the other day the party i was running was having a fight in uneven ground and both strength melees kept falling on their butt while trying to move and position.
even simple "loose gravel" has a DC of 20 according to the guidelines (static expert DC)
There are feats that help there as can Jumping. Even without the stride, you get 10'-15'.
During gameplay I just feel like these sorts of things don't matter much. Yes athletics is worse with low STR but you don't need to use athletics ever.
That is why I previously just gave the base differences that actually you do a little more damage with STR and DEX characters have higher reflex. Other than that characters vary so widely. Even STR characters don't need to use Athletics and DEX characters don't need to stealth.
Everything varies so much between GMs and campaigns that it just seems strange to argue. The thread was about DEX and early game which I do agree the level 1-3 feel the worst for DEX characters and after that it is pretty much fine.
Throughout an adventure there should be plenty of opportunities for both DEX/STR characters to shine. There are just so many different things both these characters excel that it seems strange to give all the examples.
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Everything varies so much between GMs and campaigns that it just seems strange to argue.
Oh? How many games do you play where people aren't making melee attacks or carrying stuff?
In a given day, the number of melee strikes my players make well exceeds the number of Reflex, Acrobatics, Stealth, and Finesse attacks combined.
The biggest "all the time" DEX has is AC, which as has been pointed out several times, requires 12/10 DEX and you're done forever. No further investment cost needed for AC, you're maxed.
If you want to say "it varies so much by tables", sure, some things do.
Making attacks does not, and I'd argue that Athletics checks are also way more common than the above (even if you exclude maneuvers, Climbing/Jumping/Swimming are certainly regular enough in a given adventuring day).
I'm not really going to entertain the fallacy that because there is table variation on a few portions of things STR/DEX govern that we can't evaluate the commonality of certain aspects versus another.
The reality is that Melee Strikes are literally the most common action taken in the game next to Stride and damage on Strikes comes with that too.
If a Fighter has trained in Athletics and is STR based, they are likely attempting Athletics Maneuvers. That has nothing to do with the GM at that point, it's player agency that decides when they do that, so the frequency is dependent on them, not the GM.
So you'd have to argue that the frequency of player choice to do something they are good at is less common than a GM enforcing circumstances that require Acrobatics/Stealth/Reflex Saves. And if you're going to argue that it's the GMs responsibility to present Acrobatics/Stealth/Reflex circumstances more often than they would attempt a Skill they have chosen to be good at and use with frequency, then you're not really running an organic game so much as you are forcing circumstances so that DEX users can feel relevant.
And that's not even getting into the "feelsbadman" aspects of punishing STR users to make DEX users feel like they didn't make a sub-optimal choice.
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If we all agree that the damage is no big deal and that it makes sense for dexterity to add some damage you could add
"You can add half your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to damage rolls with a finesse weapon if you used your Dexterity modifier to hit. If you have a negative Strength modifier, you add your full Strength modifier in addition."
To finesse or make an extra trait if you don't want to overcomplicate finesse.
Since you're making the thief comparatively worse you gotta give it something in return however.
But also I don't think it's necessary.
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If we all agree that the damage is no big deal and that it makes sense for dexterity to add some damage you could add
This is literally my favorite part of this position because the damage is both simultaneous "not a big deal after level 3" but "totally busted to give damage to DEX users because then WHY GO STR AT ALL!?!".
You can't have it both ways. It either matters or it doesn't.
I don't even necessarily think DEX users need more damage, it just goes to show how it's basically pearl clutching because poor STR users would be inadequate!
Has anybody played with the alternative attributes variant from the GMG? It does seem like it does a better job balancing "how much each stat does" than the default.
-Str absorbs Con
-Dex splits into Dex and Agi, but everybody gets Dex-to-Damage with appropriate weapons.
-Cha covers Will Saves
This is probably a much better balanced set of attributes than the legacy ones.
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Maybe I am just used to playing casters but early levels have always felt super lopsided with class balance in every system/video games I have played. So I just kind of play and have fun knowing eventually I will be just/close to as good.
Isn't it a good thing that there are differences in DEX characters compared to STR characters? I feel like it makes the game feel more interesting. I would hate if STR and DEX characters had the exact same number for everything.
I feel the benefit of being slightly faster and better reflex saves is quite good in general. Having that extra 5 movement could potentially let you get extra attack in too.
Now if the DEX characters always did like 20-40% less damage the entire game that would be one thing. Even someone going 10 STR will catch up eventually and do respectable damage at level 10+. The character of course would be good at other things if they took a 10 STR.
About my previous post like I said everything varies so much from game to game and character there are a lot of factors. I have played lots of adventures with abundant reflex save and many with very little. Also I don't recall ever having an important "climb/swim" check but have had plenty of times where stealth was great.
Has anybody played with the alternative attributes variant from the GMG? It does seem like it does a better job balancing "how much each stat does" than the default.
-Str absorbs Con
-Dex splits into Dex and Agi, but everybody gets Dex-to-Damage with appropriate weapons.
-Cha covers Will SavesThis is probably a much better balanced set of attributes than the legacy ones.
I think a lot of people like the CHA change since WIS is just so good in the default system. I could be wrong but I think those rules actually hurt DEX characters even worse though and made STR characters better. Since they would just need STR>AGI while DEX needed DEX>AGI>STR and were actually squishier by default.
As far as I could tell DEX characters in those rules would be more damaging but handicapped in defense while STR characters are flat out better in the rules.
Isn't it a good thing that there are differences in DEX characters compared to STR characters? I feel like it makes the game feel more interesting. I would hate if STR and DEX characters had the exact same number for everything.
Absolutely no one has asked for them to be the same or to have equal numbers on everything.
I feel the benefit of being slightly faster and better reflex saves is quite good in general. Having that extra 5 movement could potentially let you get extra attack in too.
The 5ft applies only to heavy armor, in which case see General Feats/Ancestry Feats and the Reflex save argument falls flat. Oh, and tack on Armor Specialization effects, which mitigate damage/effects, since Heavy Armor proficient right now get those.
About my previous post like I said everything varies so much from game to game and character there are a lot of factors. I have played lots of adventures with abundant reflex save and many with very little.
Anecdotal evidence doesn't override the fact that a melee Strike is more common than a Reflex save. It doesn't matter how "abundant" they were, they were never more common than melee Strikes.
Also I don't recall ever having an important "climb/swim" check but have had plenty of times where stealth was great.
Once again, anecdotal, and I noticed you left off Jump which applies to any moment you'd be jumping over a chasm, an obstruction, over difficult terrain, etc.
And if you've never had an important Climb/Swim check, then I'm not sure what to say. Failing either of those checks in the right circumstances amounts to consequences at least as detrimental as failing a Reflex Save/Stealth check.
At least in the case of Stealth you don't drown/fall, you're just seen by whatever target you failed to Stealth against.
Mainly you were saying STR characters don't need DEX etc. So I guess I should have rephrased that as Heavy Vs Other Armor.
A STR 18 > 16 or 14 DEX medium armor character
vs
A DEX 18 > 16 or 14 DEX medium armor character
They are just so similar other than STR character gets more weapon choices really.
For the most part I have never had been in a game where a failed jump check matters much. Out of combat you just heal it up. I don't think any GM would be like "you failed your jump check, so you fall in the whole and die..."
That does get me curious. Do people actually have players jumping around things during battle? I have never had that happen in any of my games in PFS or Extinction curse so far.
Comparing every skill is just too much, but I always thought stealth was great for combat advantage. If you are hidden at the start of combats you dodge attacks and the enemies could be flat footed to your attack. I think 2e really did a good job letting characters use skills in combat, kind of wish some of the odd skills had some fun combat uses.
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I don’t think dex needs to add any damage outside of Thief, but I do think the loss of maneuvers is really tough. My group has a Swashbuckler who relies on his kukri to trip people and his effectiveness would drop if my group implemented the new errata clarification on finesse maneuvers. The previous paradigm of allowing finesse based maneuvers on certain weapons added a cool level of strategy to your weapon selection as a finesse player.
I think most people agree that the Swashbuckler (specifically the gymnast) needs some access to dexterity based trip/disarm. I'm not sure anybody else does, since other dex-based martials aren't pulled in the "you need Charisma' direction like the Swash is.
Like your flurry ranger or your archer fighter can make Str one of their four stats to increase pretty painlessly, but the swash is already pushed to prioritize Dex,Con,Wis,Cha.
So what if, like how the Thief Rogue is "how you get dex-to-damage", the Swashbuckler (or a subclass thereof) is "how you get dex to athletics".
I don’t think dex needs to add any damage outside of Thief, but I do think the loss of maneuvers is really tough. My group has a Swashbuckler who relies on his kukri to trip people and his effectiveness would drop if my group implemented the new errata clarification on finesse maneuvers. The previous paradigm of allowing finesse based maneuvers on certain weapons added a cool level of strategy to your weapon selection as a finesse player.
Out of curiosity did the Swashbuckler dump is STR? In general if he started with at least a 14 he would be only one less than normal. Which yes would kind of hurt.
I think most people agree that the Swashbuckler (specifically the gymnast) needs some access to dexterity based trip/disarm. I'm not sure anybody else does, since other dex-based martials aren't pulled in the "you need Charisma' direction like the Swash is.
Like your flurry ranger or your archer fighter can make Str one of their four stats to increase pretty painlessly, but the swash is already pushed to prioritize Dex,Con,Wis,Cha.
So what if, like how the Thief Rogue is "how you get dex-to-damage", the Swashbuckler (or a subclass thereof) is "how you get dex to athletics".
Well I think the Swashbuckler is meant to use an "off" attribute so it makes since they can't get dex to manuevers. As far as I know the Gymnast can go full DEX>STR>CON and doesn't need WIS/CHA/INT.
I feel the Gymnast real weakness is that Athletics are attacks which means the class plays completely different as one. Since using a finisher the same turn as a manuever probably doesn't feel good.
Every other Swashbuckler can just go "skill" > finisher if necessary. While Gymnast can't really.
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Our stats are hidden but I think he has a 14. But as everyone knows, even a single point difference (2 in this case) makes a big difference in this edition. I really don’t see the harm in letting dex warriors use finesse maneuvers as it’s locked behind a small selection of weapons. I don’t remember seeing complaints about Finesse maneuvers before the errata. Strength is still way better for athletics anyway as a strength based warrior can use athletics well in any situation while the finesse warrior can only use it well with a certain weapon in a specific combat situation.
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That does get me curious. Do people actually have players jumping around things during battle? I have never had that happen in any of my games in PFS or Extinction curse so far.
In my playtest runs for Secrets of Magic alone I had multiple Jumps/Climbs/Swims during both of those sessions.
I find it really weird that environments aren't a factor in combats, but somehow stealth is a critical juncture. Like you value 5ft movement highly (which isn't even a direct loss, you trade it for other things) but somehow the environment isn't dictating or offering anything besides flat ground to run?
You can't even use Stealth without Cover/Concealment, so it would follow that environment should be a factor.
But Jumping (among other Athletics checks) AoE, Difficult terrain, etc. are all things I've seen regularly from the players in my games. Anecdotal, but there are times when it is the most optimal way to deal with an issue (jumping 15ft to clear 10ft of difficult terrain is a net gain of 5ft if you have 20ft movement).
Our stats are hidden but I think he has a 14. But as everyone knows, even a single point difference (2 in this case) makes a big difference in this edition. I really don’t see the harm in letting dex warriors use finesse maneuvers as it’s locked behind a small selection of weapons. I don’t remember seeing complaints about Finesse maneuvers before the errata. Strength is still way better for athletics anyway as a strength based warrior can use athletics well in any situation while the finesse warrior can only use it well with a certain weapon in a specific combat situation.
I mean a -1 is a difference, but not enough to make a character go from good to horrible. I am not 100% what the rationale but I don't think it is a particular casters. People way overexaggerate.
I also think that you forgot that any caster could just grab athletics and use a whip to trip/disarm at range for pretty much no cost. Every caster could pretty much just trip/disarm + cast spell, since they already had DEX "Why not".
Pretty much I could see every caster in a party taking athletics+whips and screwing up with combat a lot. Obviously if players aren't doing that it isn't as big deal.
My guess they just didn't like characters being able to go "full defense" and trip just as good as everyone else.
That does get me curious. Do people actually have players jumping around things during battle? I have never had that happen in any of my games in PFS or Extinction curse so far.
In my playtest runs for Secrets of Magic alone I had multiple Jumps/Climbs/Swims during both of those sessions.
I find it really weird that environments aren't a factor in combats, but somehow stealth is a critical juncture. Like you value 5ft movement highly (which isn't even a direct loss, you trade it for other things) but somehow the environment isn't dictating or offering anything besides flat ground to run?
You can't even use Stealth without Cover/Concealment, so it would follow that environment should be a factor.
But Jumping (among other Athletics checks) AoE, Difficult terrain, etc. are all things I've seen regularly from the players in my games. Anecdotal, but there are times when it is the most optimal way to deal with an issue (jumping 10ft of difficult terrain is a net gain of 10ft, which if you have reduced movement is a huge buy back).
Yeah basically I have played a few PFS where there were environmental but rough terrain you just walk through. That is interesting I admit I haven't read any Extinction Curse books but pretty much every room has been flat with maybe some rough patches with one cliff but we just shot the monsters.
Same with 5e/PF1 terrain was always so minor in my games. Eventually once the GM/Players get more use to 2e maybe we will use the environment more.
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I mean a -1 is a difference, but not enough to make a character go from good to horrible. I am not 100% what the rationale but I don't think it is a particular casters. People way overexaggerate.
As they stated, it's a difference of 2.
And 10% change when your move has a Critical Failure effect with the ramifications of Maneuvers (fall prone, become grappled, lose your weapon, etc.) is a big deal.
I also think that you forgot that any caster could just grab athletics and use a whip to trip/disarm at range for pretty much no cost. Every caster could pretty much just trip/disarm + cast spell, since they already had DEX "Why not".
If by "caster" you mean Bard and Cleric's who get Whips, then okay.
And that assumes they had the Skills to afford Athletics, the ability to afford the DEX, and the want to be within 10ft of range of an enemy combatant.
All of which are GIANT maybes.
Pretty much I could see every caster in a party taking athletics+whips and screwing up with combat a lot. Obviously if players aren't doing that it isn't as big deal.
This is a "slippery slope" btw.
And people were already running it this way before, and the postulation you're making was not something I saw (nor did I see people complaining it was the case).
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The reason the gymnast needs access to some kind of accuracy enhancer for manuevers is that other the panache gaining actions specific to the battledancer, wit,and fencer do not interact with MAP but the gymnast does.
The fencer can feint over and over, and the wit can make multiple attempts at mocking you and it won't affect their accuracy on the finisher they intend to deliver. The gymnast is working with an, at best, -2 to hit after gaining panache relative to the others (with a trip, inflicting prone, and an agile weapon.)
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Our stats are hidden but I think he has a 14. But as everyone knows, even a single point difference (2 in this case) makes a big difference in this edition. I really don’t see the harm in letting dex warriors use finesse maneuvers as it’s locked behind a small selection of weapons. I don’t remember seeing complaints about Finesse maneuvers before the errata. Strength is still way better for athletics anyway as a strength based warrior can use athletics well in any situation while the finesse warrior can only use it well with a certain weapon in a specific combat situation.I mean a -1 is a difference, but not enough to make a character go from good to horrible. I am not 100% what the rationale but I don't think it is a particular casters. People way overexaggerate.
I also think that you forgot that any caster could just grab athletics and use a whip to trip/disarm at range for pretty much no cost. Every caster could pretty much just trip/disarm + cast spell, since they already had DEX "Why not".
Pretty much I could see every caster in a party taking athletics+whips and screwing up with combat a lot. Obviously if players aren't doing that it isn't as big deal.
My guess they just didn't like characters being able to go "full defense" and trip just as good as everyone else.
It’s a -2 difference assuming a 14 Strength and 18 Dex that becomes a -1 difference at 5th level. Like the original OP of this thread, finesse seems to suffer the most in the first few levels before striking weapons or ability boosts. But I’m fine with lower damage being a drawback of finesse weapons. I’m just not sure why outlawing finesse maneuvers is necessary since it only worked before on a small subset of weapons.
On your caster example, I don’t recall anyone complaining about that pre-errata. And for good reason as I don’t think it’s that effective. It requires casters to get into dangerous melee range to attempt a trip. Especially since if you are relying on a combo of “cast a spell then whip trip” then that’s all 3 actions with no actions for meta magic or to move. Which means you are a sitting duck with low HP/AC. Also, since casters won’t have a 18 in Dex right away, their finesse athletics attempt is weaker than other characters. It also means a caster has to invest in athletics as opposed to skills more suitable to their class. I much rather have a Cha based caster invest in Diplomacy or Intimidation for 3rd action filler actions. Or an Int caster beef up their knowledge skills for recall knowledge.
Edit: forgot another negative. Not many casters get training in finesse maneuvers weapons such as a whip.
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I have no idea what Paizos thoughts were on DEX to manuevers. I am not 100% they were ever supposed to work with DEX weapons. To me it was more of a clarification.
I was just giving reasons why dex to manuevers might feel weird / unintentional. If people arent intentionally trying to break the system it probably barely matters if you rule it one way or another really. Manuevers are quite valuable so limiting them to STR doesnt seem horrible to me.
About the Gymnanst I havent played with one but when reading the styles I immediately got turned off by the whole gaining Panache with Manuevers since it affect MAP. So I have no idea if they are weak/strong. The upside of a Gymnast is STR > CHA for the most part.
Like I said it is super easy to be a DEX manuever build still just start 14-16. The character should play fine still.
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I think most people agree that the Swashbuckler (specifically the gymnast) needs some access to dexterity based trip/disarm. I'm not sure anybody else does, since other dex-based martials aren't pulled in the "you need Charisma' direction like the Swash is.
Er...how is a Gymnast pulled towards Cha? I'm not saying I'm against them getting some Dex-to-maneuver stuff, but literally nothing in that Style pulls you towards Cha even a little.
Our stats are hidden but I think he has a 14. But as everyone knows, even a single point difference (2 in this case) makes a big difference in this edition. I really don’t see the harm in letting dex warriors use finesse maneuvers as it’s locked behind a small selection of weapons. I don’t remember seeing complaints about Finesse maneuvers before the errata. Strength is still way better for athletics anyway as a strength based warrior can use athletics well in any situation while the finesse warrior can only use it well with a certain weapon in a specific combat situation.I mean a -1 is a difference, but not enough to make a character go from good to horrible. I am not 100% what the rationale but I don't think it is a particular casters. People way overexaggerate.
I also think that you forgot that any caster could just grab athletics and use a whip to trip/disarm at range for pretty much no cost. Every caster could pretty much just trip/disarm + cast spell, since they already had DEX "Why not".
Pretty much I could see every caster in a party taking athletics+whips and screwing up with combat a lot. Obviously if players aren't doing that it isn't as big deal.
My guess they just didn't like characters being able to go "full defense" and trip just as good as everyone else.
It’s a -2 difference assuming a 14 Strength and 18 Dex that becomes a -1 difference at 5th level. Like the original OP of this thread, finesse seems to suffer the most in the first few levels before striking weapons or ability boosts. But I’m fine with lower damage being a drawback of finesse weapons. I’m just not sure why outlawing finesse maneuvers is necessary since it only worked before on a small subset of weapons.
On your caster example, I don’t recall anyone complaining about that pre-errata. And for good reason as I don’t think it’s that effective. It requires casters to get into dangerous melee range to attempt a trip. Especially since if you are relying on...
I get the feeling the game really starts to feel great at level 5+, because early levels have all these weird issues that every game has. I actually do have a PFS build around Goblin Sorcerer and it feels super effective if players delay their turn. It isn't so much a primary tactic but a secondary tactic.
Also it is more of you use it when you have the opportunity. Basically if a monster is in range you can trip+cast spell giving the team a huge advantage. I am not saying it was the most OP thing or even OP at all. I believe the whip Bard/Cleric was considered quite strong though. It was also super helpful for saving spell slots. The main use of it was just save spell slots though. On your turns just go Demoralize>Trip>(anything) and watch your allies take the monster out.
People do dislikes thing when they are "nerfed", it was also more of a clarification though, since nothing stated they were attack rolls to begin with. The good news is if one they decide it is okay it will be super easy to do as a skill feat in the future if they think Dex to Maneuvers would be good.
Honestly do players in PF2E complain about many things being too strong? Only thing I can think of is Bard/Fighter (kind of) being too strong and Flickmace. They mainly complain about things being weak Alchemist, Poisoner etc.
There is one thing for certain there was A LOT of confusion about maneuvers before the errata. Players were all making different rules and it was getting effects by things like TrueStrike/inspire courage in some games.
After playing PFS I realize so many people have different interpretations of rules it gets a little crazy. I had to explain to 4 players that Demoralize effected AC... took like 10 minutes or more. So in conclusion "writing rules is hard". I probably still follow rules wrong.
Special note: I am glad they clarified maneuver and am not saying it is better one way or the other. I actually would have loved to play whip casters. Everyone saying they "changed" thing were just playing by a different interpretation of the rules.
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eople do dislikes thing when they are "nerfed", it was also more of a clarification though, since nothing stated they were attack rolls to begin with.
The original wording didn't say attacks weren't attack rolls and the attack trait refers to anything with the trait as an attack. They literally had to make up a new thing called "attack roll" to separate it from attacks because the separation didn't exist at all before.
Now, maneuvers don't pop illusions due to the new rules change, so pretending like it was already perfectly written with all other parts of the game isn't even true.
And a Developer specifically stated it worked that way during the playtest (and the rules did not change with respect to finesse before final print).
So with all due respect, you are incorrect. We were told by a developer whose name is on the front of the book that it worked that way, so please do not invalidate people's reading of previous.
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eople do dislikes thing when they are "nerfed", it was also more of a clarification though, since nothing stated they were attack rolls to begin with.The original wording didn't say attacks weren't attack rolls and the attack trait refers to anything with the trait as an attack. They literally had to make up a new thing called "attack roll" to separate it from attacks because the separation didn't exist at all before.
Now, maneuvers don't pop illusions due to the new rules change, so pretending like it was already perfectly written with all other parts of the game isn't even true.
And a Developer specifically stated it worked that way during the playtest (and the rules did not change with respect to finesse before final print).
So with all due respect, you are incorrect. We were told by a developer whose name is on the front of the book that it worked that way, so please do not invalidate people's reading of previous.
I actually said the opposite that the rules were super murky and a lot of people were ruling it different way and am glad it was clarified. I personally wouldn't have minded either way. I would actually enjoyed being a Whip Caster without needing STR.
I really don't want to get into rules discussion about old rules but when I looked over every keyword Finesse, Attack Rolls etc and came to the conclusion that STR was required. Also there are lots of threads from 2019 of people arguing both ways, I would actually say most were in favor of it being STR. So yeah it obviously was very confusing.
So it 100% needed clarification. As much as I love PF2E the whole traits on everything can sometime really cause a headache. This one example you have to look at the Trip Trait > Trip (ability) > Attack Trait > Finesse > Attack roll. That is a long process... Luckily we have the internet and some great PF2E resources since going by the book would be rough.
For people that are less inclined to read rules it is even worse. I don't think any player in our group would put half the effort I do into clarifying things.
eople do dislikes thing when they are "nerfed", it was also more of a clarification though, since nothing stated they were attack rolls to begin with.The original wording didn't say attacks weren't attack rolls and the attack trait refers to anything with the trait as an attack. They literally had to make up a new thing called "attack roll" to separate it from attacks because the separation didn't exist at all before.
Now, maneuvers don't pop illusions due to the new rules change, so pretending like it was already perfectly written with all other parts of the game isn't even true.
And a Developer specifically stated it worked that way during the playtest (and the rules did not change with respect to finesse before final print).
So with all due respect, you are incorrect. We were told by a developer whose name is on the front of the book that it worked that way, so please do not invalidate people's reading of previous.
the two tables i play with also assumed that maneuvers didn't work with finesse. Because you're making a skill check with the attack trait, not an attack roll--athletics never says anything about being able to be used with dex so we assumed RAI that they didn't expect finesse maneuvers.
it also doesn't really make sense to shove, trip or disarm somebody without using any strength. Even hip tosses require a significant explosion.
Personally I think the issue lays largely with how the stats are set up. The fact that there's strength and dex and nothing else physical kind of triggers me, since mental stats get 3 (cha, wisdom, intelligence). I really think a power (Explosiveness) stat would be a good separator.
I had always assumed that finesse trips were primarily as ashiwaza techniques, but then again it doesn't make a lot of sense that "holding a rapier" would make it easier to sweep someone's leg, since those things aren't real sturdy to begin with.