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the two tables i play with also assumed that maneuvers didn't work with finesse. Because you're making a skill check with the attack trait, not an attack roll--athletics never says anything about being able to be used with dex so we assumed RAI that they didn't expect finesse maneuvers.
it also doesn't really make sense to shove, trip or disarm somebody without using any strength. Even hip tosses require a significant explosion.
I had always assumed that finesse trips were primarily as ashiwaza techniques, but then again it doesn't make a lot of sense that "holding a rapier" would make it easier to sweep someone's leg, since those things aren't real sturdy to begin with.
Both of you said something similar, so I'll just respond collectively:
Just to clarify, the original reading only allowed weapons to use Finesse with the weapons specific maneuver traits.
Aka a Rapier could Disarm using DEX because it had the trait Finesse (the only way to get DEX to attack) and it had the trait Disarm. It could not however be used to "Trip" anyone, because Rapier does not have the Trip Maneuver trait (and therefor the text of Finesse does not apply because you have to use the weapon itself to get DEX).
You could never make a Trip check using a Rapier with Finesse by the old reading, since in order to get DEX you HAD to use the weapon, and since the weapon only offered Maneuvers with the traits it had, that meant only Disarm on Rapier.
It also meant Trip/Disarm on Whip/Spiked Chain, and Trip on Kukri.
There are no weapons with Grapple/Shove and Finesse so neither of those were of issue (and would only become an issue in the event such a weapon were introduced).
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I don't understand how people can argue that DEX-to-maneuvers for finesse weapons is "unrealistic". Realism is not a useful perspective for understanding the rules of any game (chess, RISK), much less a high-fantasy roleplaying game. Nobody plays Pathfinder because it's qualities as a real-world combat simulator, so why are people mentioning real-world martial arts?
And to everyone who has posted that finesse-to-maneuvers is not only "unrealistic" but imbalances the game by favoring DEX over STR, why not remove the finesse trait altogether? After all, in real life Olympic-level fencers are strong and no weak person could effectively use a real-life Elven Curve Blade.
In Pathfinder, a good rule is one that increases options and preserves game balance. Removing the ability of PCs wielding weapons with specific traits to apply DEX to maneuvers fails this test because it further weakens builds that were already troubled, like the Finesse melee fighter, the Gymnast style Swashbuckler, and the Wolf Stance monk.
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In Pathfinder, a good rule is one that increases options and preserves game balance. Removing the ability of PCs wielding weapons with specific traits to apply DEX to maneuvers fails this test because it further weakens builds that were already troubled, like the Finesse melee fighter, the Gymnast style Swashbuckler, and the Wolf Stance monk.
And anyone who really liked the Spiked Chain
**cries**
I don't understand how people can argue that DEX-to-maneuvers for finesse weapons is "unrealistic". Realism is not a useful perspective for understanding the rules of any game (chess, RISK), much less a high-fantasy roleplaying game. Nobody plays Pathfinder because it's qualities as a real-world combat simulator, so why are people mentioning real-world martial arts?
And to everyone who has posted that finesse-to-maneuvers is not only "unrealistic" but imbalances the game by favoring DEX over STR, why not remove the finesse trait altogether? After all, in real life Olympic-level fencers are strong and no weak person could effectively use a real-life Elven Curve Blade.
In Pathfinder, a good rule is one that increases options and preserves game balance. Removing the ability of PCs wielding weapons with specific traits to apply DEX to maneuvers fails this test because it further weakens builds that were already troubled, like the Finesse melee fighter, the Gymnast style Swashbuckler, and the Wolf Stance monk.
Insofar as the ability score descriptions attempt to at least somewhat realistically explain what a character is good at, it makes sense to compare stats and realism in my opinion. If a character with high intelligence was supposed to be good at lifting weights due to their intelligence I would find it unrealistic and immersion breaking, regardless of whether or not i can cast a fireball or summon a demon. (unless they used explicit magic to do it)
The concept that just because something is fantasy means reality is completely out of the window is just nonsensical. I expect strength ot be used for things that require strength, and dexterity to be used for things that require dexterity. If attributes have specific meanings to them I can only interpret them in ways they apply to real life unless the game has explicitly said otherwise.
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Insofar as the ability score descriptions attempt to at least somewhat realistically explain what a character is good at, it makes sense to compare stats and realism in my opinion. If a character with high intelligence was supposed to be good at lifting weights due to their intelligence I would find it unrealistic and immersion breaking, regardless of whether or not i can cast a fireball or summon a demon. (unless they used explicit magic to do it)
The concept that just because something is fantasy means reality is completely out of the window is just nonsensical. I expect strength ot be used for things that require strength, and dexterity to be used for things that require dexterity. If attributes have specific meanings to them I can only interpret them in ways they apply to real life unless the game has explicitly said otherwise.
Nobody suggested that INT be used for weight-lifing, so isn't that a straw man argument?
The six ability scores don't map cleanly to real-world psychology or physiology, because that degree of realism isn't important for the purposes of a game like Pathfinder. For instance, IRL drawing and firing a longbow at a target 100 feet away requires extraordinary muscular strength, but in Pathfinder a PC can be accurate with just Dexterity. Pathfinder is unrealistic, and that's a good thing.
Since Pathfinder doesn't need to be simulate real-world combat and physics, then its rules should focus on what plays well, what's balanced, is internally consistent, and what lets people play the roles they want. If that ruins your immersion, then Pathfinder isn't for you.
Its not a straw man at all. Just because you know what fallacies are doesnt mean you should apply them willy Nilly. I gave an example of something that would be unrealistic that's related to the subject and explained why some realism clearly matters.
I guess one of my main issues is "what determines a trip weapon" since the rapier as a disarm weapon makes a bunch of sense- you (ideally) have precise control of the tip of the weapon and are able to adjust it quickly, so you could theoretically maneuver the sharp part to be where the weapon is held. I'm okay with that beingn a finesse maneuver period (with a disarm weapon).
Trip as a weapon trait is a little trickier. Since while you have the whip which you could "wrap around someone's ankle and yank", that's kind of a strength maneuver full stop. But then there's something like the bo staff or the guisarme, where use the leverage of the long thing to take out someone's base. Why doesn't this apply to like spears also, and that feels, again, kind of like a "brute force" thing.
Like I understand that you can take someone to the ground without a lot of force applied, but those are all techniques from a grapple. If you give me a whip, a chain, a hooked blade, or a pole of some kind and tell me to "knock them over" that's not something for which speed and precision helps as much as power.
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I don't understand how people can argue that DEX-to-maneuvers for finesse weapons is "unrealistic". Realism is not a useful perspective for understanding the rules of any game (chess, RISK), much less a high-fantasy roleplaying game. Nobody plays Pathfinder because it's qualities as a real-world combat simulator, so why are people mentioning real-world martial arts?
And to everyone who has posted that finesse-to-maneuvers is not only "unrealistic" but imbalances the game by favoring DEX over STR, why not remove the finesse trait altogether? After all, in real life Olympic-level fencers are strong and no weak person could effectively use a real-life Elven Curve Blade.
In Pathfinder, a good rule is one that increases options and preserves game balance. Removing the ability of PCs wielding weapons with specific traits to apply DEX to maneuvers fails this test because it further weakens builds that were already troubled, like the Finesse melee fighter, the Gymnast style Swashbuckler, and the Wolf Stance monk.
I sincerely hope being able to apply DEX to maneuvers when wielding specific weapons will come to PF2.
But I really think it should come as a result of specific training and techniques, and not readily available to anyone who buys the adequate weapon.
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I guess one of my main issues is "what determines a trip weapon" since the rapier as a disarm weapon makes a bunch of sense- you (ideally) have precise control of the tip of the weapon and are able to adjust it quickly, so you could theoretically maneuver the sharp part to be where the weapon is held. I'm okay with that beingn a finesse maneuver period (with a disarm weapon).
Trip as a weapon trait is a little trickier. Since while you have the whip which you could "wrap around someone's ankle and yank", that's kind of a strength maneuver full stop. But then there's something like the bo staff or the guisarme, where use the leverage of the long thing to take out someone's base. Why doesn't this apply to like spears also, and that feels, again, kind of like a "brute force" thing.
If it helps, think of it this way: you (ideally) have precise control of the tip/edge of a finesse trip weapon and are able to adjust it quickly, so you could theoretically maneuver the sharp part to where the opponent's center of gravity (shin, ankle, foot). They lose balance, fall over, and gain the prone condition.
Does that work?
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I guess one of my main issues is "what determines a trip weapon" since the rapier as a disarm weapon makes a bunch of sense- you (ideally) have precise control of the tip of the weapon and are able to adjust it quickly, so you could theoretically maneuver the sharp part to be where the weapon is held. I'm okay with that beingn a finesse maneuver period (with a disarm weapon).
Trip as a weapon trait is a little trickier. Since while you have the whip which you could "wrap around someone's ankle and yank", that's kind of a strength maneuver full stop. But then there's something like the bo staff or the guisarme, where use the leverage of the long thing to take out someone's base. Why doesn't this apply to like spears also, and that feels, again, kind of like a "brute force" thing.
If it helps, think of it this way: you (ideally) have precise control of the tip/edge of a finesse trip weapon and are able to adjust it quickly, so you could theoretically maneuver the sharp part to where the opponent's center of gravity (shin, ankle, foot). They lose balance, fall over, and gain the prone condition.
Does that work?
That’s how I imagined a finesse warrior using a whip to trip someone would work. A strength warrior using a whip is more brute force: wrap the whip around a persons leg and yank.
A finesse warrior doesn’t have the power for that technique. Instead they use their opponent movement against them, waiting for the precise moment when their opponent moves just enough to put themselves in a potentially off balancing position. Then the finesse warrior lashes out with their whip to take advantage of their for’s misstep to nudge them off balance.
I guess one of my main issues is "what determines a trip weapon" since the rapier as a disarm weapon makes a bunch of sense- you (ideally) have precise control of the tip of the weapon and are able to adjust it quickly, so you could theoretically maneuver the sharp part to be where the weapon is held. I'm okay with that beingn a finesse maneuver period (with a disarm weapon).
Trip as a weapon trait is a little trickier. Since while you have the whip which you could "wrap around someone's ankle and yank", that's kind of a strength maneuver full stop. But then there's something like the bo staff or the guisarme, where use the leverage of the long thing to take out someone's base. Why doesn't this apply to like spears also, and that feels, again, kind of like a "brute force" thing.
If it helps, think of it this way: you (ideally) have precise control of the tip/edge of a finesse trip weapon and are able to adjust it quickly, so you could theoretically maneuver the sharp part to where the opponent's center of gravity (shin, ankle, foot). They lose balance, fall over, and gain the prone condition.
Does that work?
That’s how I imagined a finesse warrior using a whip to trip someone would work. A strength warrior using a whip is more brute force: wrap the whip around a persons leg and yank.
A finesse warrior doesn’t have the power for that technique. Instead they use their opponent movement against them, waiting for the precise moment when their opponent moves just enough to put themselves in a potentially off balancing position. Then the finesse warrior lashes out with their whip to take advantage of their for’s misstep to nudge them off balance.
..that's doing even more to make me think Trip is a Strength action. You can't just poke the 'centre of gravity' since it's..where their mass is centred (hence 'centre of gravity'). You want to make them overextend that centre so it's not supported..but even then you need some way to apply force. A whip can help mess up your base by pulling, but it's too flexible to actually push or poke with.
A finesse warrior doesn’t have the power for that technique. Instead they use their opponent movement against them, waiting for the precise moment when their opponent moves just enough to put themselves in a potentially off balancing position. Then the finesse warrior lashes out with their whip to take advantage of their for’s misstep to nudge them off balance.
This to me seems like a 2 action activity (one to get your opponent off-balance, one to exploit this) rather than a single action trip.
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A finesse warrior doesn’t have the power for that technique. Instead they use their opponent movement against them, waiting for the precise moment when their opponent moves just enough to put themselves in a potentially off balancing position. Then the finesse warrior lashes out with their whip to take advantage of their for’s misstep to nudge them off balance.This to me seems like a 2 action activity (one to get your opponent off-balance, one to exploit this) rather than a single action trip.
It isn’t meant to be taken exactly literally.You aren’t using a single action to make a precise and quick strike at an opponent’s place of weakness to throw them off balance. I was trying to just highlight how one could narratively justify finesse tripping with a whip. A strength whip wielded uses their sheer strength to throw their opponent to the ground. A finesse user isn’t as strong so they have to read their opponent’s movements to strike more precisely at the right opportunity.
It’s no different than how one would describe a finesse Strike vs a strength Strike. The finesse warrior fantasy is one of a nimble combatant that makes quick and precise attacks. I would therefore describe a finesse trip with a whip in a similar fashion. Less sheer power and more fine precision.
Either way, my argument is that you can make narrative justifications for finesse maneuvers as this isn’t unheard of in fantasy. The rapier wielding duelist that easily disarms their for or a nimble whip wielder keeping their foes off balanced. These don’t sound like unreasonable fantasies to me. Mechanically they require a high investment in Dex and a very specific weapon to even make work, and then only for the specific maneuver (trip, disarm, etc) action that the weapon shares the trait of. A strength based warrior will always be superior at athletics in general, but personally I don’t see the harm in a finesse warrior being just as good in a very narrow window. Maybe make this a skill feat to let you use dexterity with finesse weapons for maneuvers that have the corresponding trait (like disarming with a rapier), but the current state after the errata isn’t great IMO.