There are no creatures, PC or otherwise, that have bad Fortitude saves, and creatures most likely to use it on will be higher level than you and be much stronger in the saves department, meaning that any counterargument of "X creature has bad fortitude saves" doesn't hold water.No offense, but this suggests you don't know that much about the design of PF2 monsters. The majority of undead do, to start with, and there's a lot of creatures that also have it as their second-worst save, but only a point or two behind their worst (at high levels in B1, the Simurgh and Ancient Bronze/Blue Dragons are prime examples). A lot of NPCs do as well - the Tempest-Sun Mage, Cult Leader, and Assassin being obvious examples.
Well, there are a few Fortitude Save spells which are pretty popular that are of a Vampiric nature that cannot reasonably target Undead, meaning for those cases they are safe. Grim Tendrils and Eclipse Burst are a few other less noteworthy examples (and that's before getting that Eclipse Burst is so big that it's unlikely to be usable except in super huge terrains, or with abilities that exclude allies). Other ones that don't are usually in Divine or Primal territory, or even Occult on some occasions, which is something that Arcane spellcasters don't shine in. Occult actually would do a better job here by comparison, even if they have some of the same spells.
But realistically, Constitution is the #1 attribute that is almost never dumped (or at the very least, not neglected), so from both a PC and an NPC standpoint, the only major differences between "good" and "bad" Fortitude saves are abilities like Juggernaut and maybe a +1 or +2. Which can make a difference, sure. But it's not an obvious target, either, especially with that ideal in mind.
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Repost for the visibility without a Quote-Block due to being the last post on page 2
All the credit goes to Alfa/Polaris for the immense work put in on the post chock full of incredibly valuable crunching and time investment.
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By: Alfa/Polaris
I was curious about Wizard casting vs Sorcerer casting. Looking only at quantity rather than versatility, and Lv 1-10 slots (Lv 10 not being referred to when I say "highest-level spells") instead of focus spells. "Lower levels" pretty much always means at least 2 levels below your highest level of slot.
I also might have missed some granted innate spells because...this already took like 5 to 6 hours on the last week before finals @^@
Specialist Wizard: ★4th slots limited to school.
Universalist Wizard: ★no 4th slots. DBI is once a level.
★Drain Bonded Item (repeat a cast of any level)
8• Bond Conservation (metamagic to repeat more casts of lower level(s) after Drain Bonded Item)
10•Scroll Savant (2-4 free scrolls of different lower levels)
14•Superior Bond (extra use of DBI for a lower level)
18•Second Chance Spell (repeat an enchantment spell that did nothing on another target next turn)
18•Reprepare Spell (10 minutes to renew an instant Lv 4 or lower spell slot, Substitution can work)
20•Spell Mastery (4 spells of different levels always prepared with their own spell slots)
Total at 10: 20 slots+2 scrolls of lower levels, repeat 1 cast, metamagic to repeat lower cast(s) after repeating cast
or: 15 slots+2 scrolls of lower levels, repeat 5 casts, metamagic to repeat lower cast(s) after repeat(s)
Total at 20: 37 slots+4 scrolls of lower levels+1 2nd Lv 10 slot or 4 slots of different levels, repeat 1 cast*, metamagic to repeat lower cast(s) after repeating cast, repeat 1 cast of lower level, repeat ineffective enchantment spells or renew Lv 4 slots
or: 28 slots+4 scrolls of lower levels+1 2nd Lv 10 slot or 4 slots of different levels, repeat 9 casts*, metamagic to repeat lower cast(s) after repeat(s), repeat 1 cast of lower level, repeat ineffective enchantment spells or renew Lv 4 slots
(Repeat is not a real word anymore.)
Sorcerer: ★4th slots with no limits. (4th spells limited to bloodline, but not necessary to cast.)
4• Divine Evolution (extra highest level slot for Heal or Harm), or
4• Primal Evolution (extra highest level slot for Summon Animal/Plant/Fungi. No love for blasties :< )
16•Greater Vital Evolution (extra cast for two spell levels)
18•Echoing Spell (metamagic to repeat an instant Lv 4 or lower spell next turn)
20•Bloodline Conduit (metamagic to cast Lv 5 or lower spell for free, once/minute)
Total at 10: 20 slots+1 spell-limited slot
or: 20 slots
Total at 20: 37 slots+1 spell-limited slot*+2 different level slots+1 2nd Lv 10 slot or metamagic for free Lv 5 spell once/minute, metamagic for repeating Lv 4 spell
or: 37 slots+1 2nd Lv 10 slot or metamagic for free Lv 5 spell once/minute, metamagic for repeating Lv 4 spell
Overall, Wizards have many more options for casting extra slot spells, and they more heavily rely on repeating spells already cast. Divine and Primal Sorcerers have an analogue to Drain Bonded Item and Spell Mastery for highest-level slots via their respective Evolutions, but the first extra slot is spell-limited (and the Summons don't scale super well), Greater Vital Evolution is 2 spell levels instead of 4 (though they retain the ability to get Conduit or an extra Lv 10 slot), and they don't have an analogue to Spell Blending if the Wizard chooses that, or answers to all of the "lower level" options for Lv 8 and below slots. Universalist Wizards miss out on a highest-level slot but could potentially cast more lower-level slots, Arcane and Occult Sorcerers simply miss out on more casts. Both classes have endgame options to cast more ~Lv 4 spells, Wizard requiring time to renew them and Sorcerer needing to conserve them/pick good times to echo.
...then I got curious about other casters...
Bard: no 4th slots.
16•Studious Capacity (Enigma, extra cast for a spell level below highest)
Total at 10: 15 slots
Total at 20: 28 slots+1 2nd Lv 10 slot+1 slot
Cleric: no 4th slots.
★Divine Font (up to 6 highest-level heal or harm spells based on Charisma)
14•Ebb and Flow (metamagic to repeat 2-action heal/harm on different type of creature)
18•Echoing Channel (metamagic to add 1-action heal/harm at new target onto 2-action version)
Total at 10: 15 slots+0-4 highest-level heal/harm slots
Total at 20: 28 slots+1 2nd Lv 10 slot+0-6 Lv 9 heal/harm slots, metamagic to repeat 2-action heal/harm, metamagic to add 1-action heal/harm
Druid: no 4th slots.
20•Leyline Conduit (metamagic to cast Lv 5 or lower spell for free, once/minute)
Total at 10: 15 slots
Total at 20: 28 slots+1 2nd Lv 10 slot or metamagic for free Lv 5 spell once/minute
Oracle: no 4th slots.
18•Divine Effusion (extra cast for two spell levels)
20•Mystery Conduit (cast instant Lv 5 or lower spell as revelation spell, curse and all)
Total at 10: 15 slots
Total at 20: 28 slots+2 slots of different levels+1 2nd Lv 10 slot or metamagic for free Lv 5 spell once/minute
Witch: no 4th slots.
10•Temporary Potions (...kinda: 2-4 free potions/oils, which often have spell-like effects, 6 levels below)
16•Siphon Power (free cast of a spell one level below highest once/day)
Total at 10: 15 slots+2 pseudo-spells?
Total at 20: 28 slots+2 pseudo-spells?+1 2nd Lv 10 slot+1 slot
General Level 10 rankings: S. Wizard 23+var, U. Wizard 22+VAR, Sorcerer 20-21, Cleric 15-19, Witch 15/17, Bard/Druid/Oracle 15
General Level 20 rankings: S. Wizard 43-46+VAR+renewal, U. Wizard 42-45+BIGVAR+renewal, Sorcerer 37-41+free, Cleric 29-35+free, Oracle 31-30+free & Witch 30/32, Bard 30, Druid 29-28+free
General results: Most casters only start getting/differentiating extra casts after Lv 10. Before then, Clerics with high Charisma actually have the most slots at the earliest levels (how long they keep this advantage depends on how high the stat is), though with restricted spells, while Divine/Primal Sorcerers can gain a similarly restricted extra scaling slot, and Specialist Wizards tie with them until Lv 8, afterwards having the most potential/actual spells by a decent margin. Of course, casters with fewer spells tend to have more focus spells and other features to make up for it.
...and then I got curious about focus spell capabilities.
Wizard: niche/poor-quality to dull but solid focus spells. Starts with 1 if Specialist. Max 2 in-class.
1•Familiar
4•Linked Focus (+1 FP when using DBI once/day)
14•Double Focus
Sorcerer: niche/poor quality to general/solid focus spells depending on bloodline. Starts with 1. Max 3 in-class.
1•Familiar
12•Double Focus
18•Triple Focus
Bard: absurd number of focus cantrips and spells, mostly solid, some very good (mostly for Maestro). Starts with 1 (Maestro 2) and a cantrip.
12•Double Focus
Champion: fairly general/solid focus spells with a notable martial bent, and domain spells. Starts with 1.
4• Desperate Prayer (+1 FP once/day)
10•Double Focus
Cleric: niche/poor quality to general/solid focus spells depending on domains. Cloistered starts with 1.
8• Surging Focus (+1 FP when ally hits 0 HP once/day)
12•Double Focus
18•Triple Focus
Druid: fairly general/solid focus spells. Starts with 1.
1• Familiar (for Leaf)
12•Double Focus
18•Triple Focus
Monk: fairly general/solid focus spells with a slight martial bent.
12•Double Focus
18•Ki Center (requires Stance Savant and MoMS, cast ki stance for free once/minute)
18•Triple Focus
Oracle: slightly niche to fairly general/solid focus spells with a little more power but a double edge, plus domains (also double-edged). Starts with 2.
11★Double Focus, 3 FP
17★Triple Focus
Ranger: niche to general/solid focus spells with a martial bent.
12•Warden Focus
18•Warden Wellspring
Witch: niche/poor quality to general/solid focus spells and cantrip depending on patron. Starts with 1 and the cantrip.
★Familiar
12•Hex Focus
18•Hex Wellspring
So, yeah. There's a direct inverse between number of slot spells able to be cast and quality/frequency of focus spells, with Champion being a little weird and Wizard being absolutely desolate. By extension, general satisfaction with PF2 spells varies wildly while most class-exclusive focus spells tend to be enjoyed. There's definitely more that could be done with Wizard feats and capabilities, but their bad focus casting seems intentional (even if not necessarily sensible (why do they have the worst refocus level all they do is study)). They're very clearly meant to leverage traditional slots across the full spectrum of levels more often than anyone else.
And, honestly, having looked over the numbers from a bird's eye view, it seems pretty much fine? Deadmanwalking has written homebrew that nicely addresses the focus spells and various other things, if that interests anyone. Classes struggling to appeal such as Wizard will probably get more cool stuff in the future to make up for it. I really need a nap. Hopefully this helped someone, somewhere.
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bunch of anecdotescool stories...you do realize that black tentacles are also on arcane list?
Magic missile is far from a blast spell, shadow blast is the worst blast spell in the game....even worse than sound burst or weapon storm.
being an INT caster will get you bunch of good knowledge and lore skills to identify creatures and their resistances and weaknesses, so your argument that elemental damage is lame is totally wrong....usually monsters with immunities on 1 element also have a weakness in another.
WILL saves are best overall to attack, but only by a small margin compared to REF saves. Having no opportunities to attack 1 of 3 main defenses is a big deal.
cutting it short - There is almost no enemy that you can face in any of the books that occult list will handle better than arcane...same is true for most utility spells.
beside Soothe(which is much worse than heal as you hit higher levels) and Synesthesia, occult doesn't hold anything over arcane. That list is much longer if you look at it vice versa
You might prefer Occult over Arcane, that's totally valid, but Occult is not better...not even remotely.
It is, but my point is that obvious blasting spells like Chain Lightning, in an environment that it's supposed to thrive on, won't necessarily thrive when even a single dice roll ruins it. It's too perfectionist to get an optimal use out of it. I've had a couple very impressive uses out of it, both of which have been the first and last times (so far) that I have cast the spell. Other times, bad guys have either rolled really high with a good modifier to completely avoid it, or rolled a Nat 20 and screwed me out of many other targets in my preferred chain. And with all of them, I targeted weakest to strongest to ensure that I affect the most enemies based on an average roll. Whereas Black Tentacles, a lower level and far less damaging spell (but having other significant strengths), can (and has) contributed more than some one-off damaging spell that can fizzle up with unfavorable dice rolling. Of course, Black Tentacles also falls apart in situations like going against super strong enemies, but for its purpose in comparison to Chain Lightning (which is to route a ton of lower level enemies fast and effectively), I find that it has performed in a way that Chain Lightning could not compare in a realistic setting.
Magic Missile is a spell that is compared against for raw actual damage per action from a spellcasting blaster's standpoint, largely due to its nearly universal application. 4D4+4 per action as a 7th level spell isn't strong, but there are definitely cases where other spells will do less (or none at all), making them poor spell choices to use against those particular targets. Shadow Blast is like the Magic Missiles of blasting, because it has the most flexibility of any spell. You want a cone? Done. You want a line? Done. You want a burst? Done. You want Piercing, Frost, Force damage? Done. You're not limited to specific spell constraints. The trade is that enemies get to use a potentially more favorable saving throw against you, but even on obvious successes, you are exploiting weaknesses, another big draw to the spell.
With how DCs scale for identifying creatures, learning information, and skill increases work, I suspect that an Int caster will be good at one, possibly two relevant knowledge checks. (For my Wizard, it is Arcane and Society.) For other ones? You'll be trained with a potentially non-optimal ability modifier, and that's being favorable. Passable for the lower levels. But as you grow in power, those don't scale (to the extent you need it to, to rely on them on a regular basis as the game expects you to). You might learn a significant piece of information. Or you might waste an action. Or you just won't have the relevant knowledge skill, depending on what trained skills you chose. There are some feats (and even spells that you don't get access to, ironically enough) that help with this, but sometimes it's not particularly worth it if you can make an educated enough guess as to what to use, meta-game knowledge aside.
I never disputed that Will Saves were bad to target. In fact, I find them much more favorable than Reflex because Will Saves are the hardest to counteract, provide some of the most debilitating effects, and are also very predictable in their unfavorable application (usually spellcaster types, likewise very obvious to identify), and even then they are still passable to a point, depending on the spellcasting type.
There are plenty of Arcane spells that Occult possesses that are passable for me as a Wizard. Wall of Force, Vampiric Touch, Magic Missile...I've used these spells plenty of times, to good effect (ironic for the Vampiric Touch, since enemies have crit-failed on that a couple times, totally unexpected, but totally not typical results). I would have really appreciated an option to take a different spell list to study, because even buffs like Heroism are super sweet to throw out, even if a party doesn't have a Bard (which they should, because goddamn they're so OP I borderline wish they were nerfed that I'm so jealous of their power).
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Total Spells Breakdown
A neat little comparison, but to me, it ultimately boils down to the fact that quantity is nothing, quality is everything.
A spell that does the work of 3-4 spells combined is going to be worth more per spell slot every single time, bar none. Synesthesia could probably replace all of my 5th through 9th level spells for a combat day and I would probably not care at all. It is literally that strong.
A Wizard who gets several more spells per day, but has junk to choose from, will not outperform a class who gets more all-day power and a better spell list to cast from, period.
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But realistically, Constitution is the #1 attribute that is almost never dumped (or at the very least, not neglected)
This is not my experience at all. Most of the PCs I've seen have Con as an at-best tertiary stat, since it adds to no skills and you generally have a reasonable amount of HP anyway. It's not as neglected as Int or Cha on classes that don't use those for anything, but it's generally not high priority.
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But realistically, Constitution is the #1 attribute that is almost never dumped (or at the very least, not neglected)This is not my experience at all. Most of the PCs I've seen have Con as an at-best tertiary stat, since it adds to no skills and you generally have a reasonable amount of HP anyway. It's not as neglected as Int or Cha on classes that don't use those for anything, but it's generally not high priority.
I've seen characters start with 10 or 12 Constitution, or even 14+ at the cost of some other attributes, like the two you've described, or Dexterity if they're heavy armor users. It's not going to be a 16 (unless you're maybe Barbarian) or 18 (unless you take voluntary flaws, usually not worth), but it's going to be passable, or at the very least, not left at 10 or less. Especially for ancestries with a Constitution penalty.
But, when you have 4 attribute boosts at a given interval, and you probably don't boost 2 of the 6 attributes for optimization purposes, Constitution is still increased at a better-than-normal rate, and there are class features like Juggernaut which help out on that front quite a bit. It's actually basically the only differentiation between classes that are "Good" and "Bad" at this saving throw.
On top of that, the game's math reflects this. A Fortitude Save for a Champion like myself is only one or two points higher than a Rogues, tops. A difference, but not extremely significant to consider it an obvious weakness.
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Con I pretty much always prioritize as a 3rd stat at best on every character. The especially MAD classes it is hard to even pick it as a third stat like Swashbucklers that need Dex>Cha>Con/Str.
I am curious is Synesthesia really that strong? It definitely seems good but I havent really looked at high level spells.
I would hope characters would want other options like chain lightning sometimes too. Would an occult Witch really be better off Synyhesia in ever slot past 5?
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Just to point out on the "chain lightning" vs "black tentacule" exemple that chain lightning is an awesome spell...because it's foe only.
That's it. That's its value. In a big melee where two camps are fighting, it's way better than tentacles who will indiscriminately hentai the hell out of everyone.
BUT in the scenario you depicted with the armies apart, chain lightning is NOT a good spell. A simple fireball would have probably dealt more damage since it doesn't stop on a crit. Or, one level later, eclipse burst.
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Con I pretty much always prioritize as a 3rd stat at best on every character. The especially MAD classes it is hard to even pick it as a third stat like Swashbucklers that need Dex>Cha>Con/Str.
I am curious is Synesthesia really that strong? It definitely seems good but I havent really looked at high level spells.
I would hope characters would want other options like chain lightning sometimes too. Would an occult Witch really be better off Synyhesia in ever slot past 5?
It depends on if you really need those tertiary attributes. For Intelligence, I'd really only select this if you have class features pinging off of it, and that's going to probably be your primary attribute anyway if that's the case. Similar with Charisma, though it also has the face skills to consider, such as Intimidate, Deception, and Diplomacy, so if your build (or party) hinges off of that, it does have importance. Otherwise, in the trash bin it goes. The thing with Constitution is that there is never not a use for it. You won't ever not get targeted with Fortitude Save effects as a PC, and having more HP is never a bad thing, there's no opportune downside that can trump "Your character is going to die more likely and more frequently," because a dead character does nothing, and means the end of the legend.
Synesthesia targets a single creature within an appropriate range affecting the least likely to be strong saving throw, and inflicts 3 debilitations with one effect. Even on a success, those effects are going for a round, and on a failure, that target is basically gimped for the entire combat. Clumsy 3 means they have -3 AC, Reflex Saves, and Dexterity-based Skill checks. It treats all creatures as concealed, meaning targeting anything requires a Flat 5 check, whether that's buffing allies or damaging/debuffing enemies. If it's a spellcaster, they have a Flat 5 check on anything requiring concentration, which involve spells with verbal components. So, casting Shield, True Strike, or any other two-action spell, can be wasted with effectively double Flat 5 checks. If they're going to try to move, they are much slower as a result, being 10 foot less than usual. Unless they're superfast, it's not going to be getting away from you guys, or be forced to spend more actions to move to more appropriate locations, which is less actions spent beating you guys down.
There can be situations where this is useless, though. Mindless enemies, for example. They aren't extremely common, but they do exist, and considering how easy it is to hit some of them (such as oozes and fleshwarps), you aren't out too much anything by not being able to cast this spell on them compared to any other spell. It doesn't replace a spell like Soothe (which takes higher level slots to cast anyway to maintain effectiveness), or Wall of Force, but if we're strictly talking battle spells, it's probably the strongest thing in the Occult list, as it can basically extremely weaken bosses to the point of being just another creature to fight. In short, it adjusts the math in your favor the most, on a fight that you most need that math adjusted in your favor. I find that there are very few spells in very few situations that would outpace the effectiveness this spell provides, even on a success.
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Just to point out on the "chain lightning" vs "black tentacule" exemple that chain lightning is an awesome spell...because it's foe only.
That's it. That's its value. In a big melee where two camps are fighting, it's way better than tentacles who will indiscriminately hentai the hell out of everyone.
BUT in the scenario you depicted with the armies apart, chain lightning is NOT a good spell. A simple fireball would have probably dealt more damage since it doesn't stop on a crit. Or, one level later, eclipse burst.
This is true. I actually did pop a 5th level Fireball earlier in the combat since I didn't have access to 7th level spells at the time, and I did affect about 10+ guys. However, the GM rolled their saves in groups instead of individually to save time (which was fine, this was a lot of enemies to keep track of), and rolled a Natural 20 on one set, and a save on the other set. Obviously, if they were individually rolled, it would have performed better than what was described, but it's no different than if I were to have targeted two creatures with a Fireball in terms of overall results.
To be fair, the Black Tentacles was also cast earlier too, before any of our allies were in the thick of it, and we knew the affected areas. It was just that effective in reducing damage.
However, the GM rolled their saves in groups instead of individually to save time (which was fine, this was a lot of enemies to keep track of), and rolled a Natural 20 on one set, and a save on the other set.
Oof yeah, as a GM (or even my GM) would have re-rolled or used smaller groups, leaving the nat-20 on one guy just due to how outcome-affecting that is.
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Oof, that's really rough, the luck in the decision coupled with the nat 20 for sure but on the other side of the coin you could have just as easily gotten lucky with that ruling if one of the groups critically failed and had the entire group likely turn into a mess of burning corpses.
Oof, that's really rough, the luck in the decision coupled with the nat 20 for sure but on the other side of the coin you could have just as easily gotten lucky with that ruling if one of the groups critically failed and had the entire group likely turn into a mess of burning corpses.
Yeah, that's really the big tradeoff. On one hand, if the roll is real bad, that's a ton of damage. On the other, it's little to no damage.
I'm not really upset that it's done that way. As a GM, it can be very difficult to manage a large number of NPCs or creatures for determining roll results between them. I've done it as well, but I also know that it's not the standard for the game, either.
On average though, there should have been maybe a few successes or one critical success, several failures, and a couple critical failures across the board.
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When I've run large groups, I tend to roll 2d10 instead of 1d20 for group rolls, and treat a result of 2 as if it is was 1. Makes for a less varied spread of results but still speeds things up.
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Arcane has 13 spells unique to it, Divine 27, Occult 28, and Primal 42. There are 27 spells common to all lists.
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Thanks. I think this clearly shows the need for more arcane spells. It is annoying when all your toys get stolen.
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I get the impression that, while we know for a fact that there are people at Paizo that go: "That's a really neat spell, why can't my wizard cast it?", there seems to likely be also someone saying: "That spell would be great on the occult list."
And both of them are doing it to every spell even vaguely high magic in flavor that isn't healing.
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If Arcane was ever intended to be and remain the biggest list, which I’m not sure is true, it certainly doesn’t seem like a priority from the published material this far.
Unless a concerted effort is made to enforce this idea, within the next few years all spell lists will be so large that “biggest” will be a point of trivia and not balance.
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it's way better than tentacles who will indiscriminately hentai the hell out of everyone.
I laughed at this for like a full thirty seconds.
If Arcane was ever intended to be and remain the biggest list, which I’m not sure is true, it certainly doesn’t seem like a priority from the published material this far.
Unless a concerted effort is made to enforce this idea, within the next few years all spell lists will be so large that “biggest” will be a point of trivia and not balance.
Reading between the lines from stuff developers have said, and looking at the CRB, while they intended to make the traditions class agnostic, they sort of fell short, and with the exception of Occult they can really be considered the Wizard, Druid, and Cleric lists that other classes can access, rather than something that stands up on their own. Occult in fairness is quite distinct, so it can be done at least.
Perhaps they had intended for the Arcane list to be less accessible than the other three, raising the value of wizards having access (notice that the three classes that get arcane also have the worst saves, hp, and perception?). But if they intentionally underpowered the class abilities to make room for the spell list, I think they smurfed up. From another balancing standpoint, this will also make it harder to justify something like an Ur-Priest or Archivist class archetype, where you have a wizard's class abilities but the Divine or Occult spell list. Well, Occult is powerful enough that you'll be fine, but divine...yeesh.
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Ultimately the Wizard just needs a second-pass, be that in a series of buffs in errata 3, or a page and a half devoted to it in Secrets of Magic (this one please, so we don’t have to wait another year), or do even release it as a series of “optional rules” as a pseudo-unchained.
I have a feeling that Secrets of Magic is going really up the number of spells on each list, but with the trend currently present continuing. Meaning more occult spells than most.
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I don't understand why people are saying that the Arcane list is not the broadest and most populated spell list. 334 total spells is the most.
While it is true that it doesn't have a lot of Arcane only spells, that is largely because arcane only spells are going to be ones tied directly to the study and exploitation of raw magical energy. There are a couple of great ones in this category, but by and large, the point of the arcane list is that if the spell feels wizardly magical, the arcane list has it, and that means having at least 10% more spells than any other list. Primal only spells are directly tied to nature stuff. They are exclusive to that list for a reason. All the elemental blast spells are going to be on both lists for good reason, and primal casters not getting true strike makes several elemental blast spells nearly unusable for druids.
Getting exclusive access to summoning constructs and dragons is not nothing, and wish is the best of the 10th level anything spells by a large margin.
Should magic missile have been arcane only? Probably. Do I fully understand why its not and disintegrate is? No really. But magic missile is a difficult spell to justify on a spontaneous caster that maxes out at 3 spells per spell level, especially if you are going to try to serve in a combat healing role and need to have soothe as a signature spell. Bards picking any spells that do best using three actions is pretty much a no go.
The only place in terms of spell access that bards get clearly too much access too is in rituals that all seem to give occultism as a primary skill along side arcana at the same level of proficiency, but even that makes some sense, because it is difficult as a bard to really keep Occultism fully boosted along side your desperate need to keep performance all the way boosted, and the party expecting you to do all of the face skills. Sure being able to use performance to make an impression or demoralize is nice, but it doesn't let you use it to make quips with bon mot, gather information, make requests, or coerce a suspect in an interrogation. I have not seen may bards that boost occultism at every opportunity.
Meanwhile, the occult witch and sorcerer probably do need access to a lot of those same rituals and shouldn't be significantly behind the wizard at being a master of powerful rituals.
I do hope that we get a lot more powerful rituals in the secrets of magic book and ones that really tap into the "secrets of magic" should be arcane, and hopefully we will get some feats that help wizards be even better at ritual magic.
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I don't understand why people are saying that the Arcane list is not the broadest and most populated spell list. 334 total spells is the most.
I think part of the reason may be that any theoretical advantage in numbers not always automatically translates into a practical advantage in numbers, i.e. how many level 5, 10, 15 or 20 Wizards actually have more spells in their respective spell books than e.g. a Druid has on his list?
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I don't understand why people are saying that the Arcane list is not the broadest and most populated spell list. 334 total spells is the most.
The question isn't "is it the most", its "are arcane casters balanced around that fact?" and "at what point does the erosion of that require balance change?"
The Occult list has been steadily encroaching on the Arcane, but we'll have to see if it becomes a serious issue with future content.
Also, if PF2 spell lists end up even half the size of PF1, having "the most" won't really mean anything as the overall pools of possible spells will be large enough that all lists will have ways to do everything.
Personally, I am pretty optimistic about the secrets of magic book as a whole, even if I have some reservations about how the magus might be handled (I am entirely ambivalent to summoner, but I always have been). I think is is going to give us a lot of optional magical subsystems, and even more importantly, a good sense of how to modify or make your own magical subsystem to introduce into your own game, and I think that will go a long way to helping GMs make magic be the magic that needs to exist in the worlds they are building with their players.
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Also, why is pure numbers somehow seen as relevant? Arcane spell list is also ALREADY FULL of repetitive or plain useless spells Sigil, anyone? How about Longstrider and Fleet Step which could easily be one spell with option on which bonus? Or just Fleet Step which heightens to Longstrider.
Why have both Illusionary Disguise and Alter Self, the difference of which will be relevant probably a grand total of 3 times across 10 years of entire world playing PF2?
Face it, Arcane list is biggest because the devs stuff every situational and repetitive spell on it.
Why have both Illusionary Disguise and Alter Self, the difference of which will be relevant probably a grand total of 3 times across 10 years of entire world playing PF2?
I am not sure what spell you are referring to with Alter Self. I don't think that spell exists in PF2.
Illusionary Disguise and Humanoid form are two very different spells, and I am happy to have both of them in the game and on the arcane list because the schools of magic matter on the arcane list quite a bit.
Fleet step and longstrider are a more questionable comparison, but I can see the advantage of having some gods grant one or the other as a granted based upon whether they are travel deities or lightning speed deities. And at the point that different spells exist, it makes sense for them to be on the arcane list unless there is a specific reason not to.
The occult spell list is very powerful with a couple incredible gems (I'm speaking about you, Synesthesia, but you're hardly alone).
However, the arcane-only spells are no slouch either. Contingency, Spell turning and the power words are pretty powerful in their own right.
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Arcane may have technically more spells but Occult poaches a lot of the interesting ones that aren't straight damage. It doesn't help Occult isn't helpless on the damage front (though more susceptible to being countered by an immune monster).
I dont think its particularly controversial to suggest that the Occult spell list is probably somewhat overturned and overversatile, probably beyond what was intended by the designers.
I still think Arcane has relative value due to its access to unique spells and elemental value, but I doubt we can find anyone who will say that Occult isn't really good. Probably better than it should be.
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I think the issue is wizard has trouble taking advantage of that because of prepared casting. It's nice that there's a blast for cold, poison, fire, electric, and so on. But a wizard only has so many top level slots and those are picked at the beginning of the day. If the wizard prepped too many fireballs and needs lightning bolt then that's that. Or if he tried to be versatile and cover all his bases he may only be able to hit weakness once. Spontaneous takes advantage of that much nicer. You can have a signature fireball, a signature cone of cold, lightning bolt at top level, and still have room for top level buffs. And then you can pick which blast you need when you need it. A wizard can with foreknowledge prepare against enemies very well. A sorcerer doesn't need foreknowledge he can just be constantly versatile. The sorcerer can also cast low level spells to ping weaknesses that a wizard can't because he didn't prep a bunch of level 1 snowballs to ping cold while a signature snowball can be any level between 1 and max.
Scaling damaging cantrips like Produce Flame, Electric Arc, and Ray of Frost mitigate the weakness of prepared casting. So arcane and primal casters have that advantage of divine and occult casters.
While spontaneous casters can choose to designate blasts as their signature spells, that's a build decision with opportunity costs, so spontaneous casters in general won't necessarily have an advantage over prepared casters in terms of blasts.
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The big benefit a prepared caster has is he can change his role, but how often does your blaster wizard suddenly need to change roles and be a supporter?
In any case where we have a day or two (which is surprisingly often) to make preparations before venturing into... well, anywhere... a Wizard should be a diviner for a day. Find a nice place to hide near your goal, and start up with the Clairvoyance and Prying Eye and make yourself a map, identify your foes, and make preparations.
That capability costs a Spontaneous caster valuable spells known - it costs a Wizard two entries in their spellbook, even if they are typically a blaster.
Time to prepare and scout massively favors Wizards, especially since neither Clerics nor Druids get the really good divination spells.
Just one example. They can do the same thing for infiltration, social scenarios, Battlefield and architectural engineering, etc.
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Preparations vary heavily depending on the GM and scenario. Some places will put up divination wards, sometimes the area to explore is just the wilderness in general, and sometimes it's too dangerous to risk being down a party member in combat. Or on the flip side the place you are exploring is a volcano. You probably don't want to prep fireball. No divination needed.
But knowing you don't need fireball just means you don't waste a slot. It means you are on par with the spontaneous caster who could already cast cone of cold every time instead.
At 5th level, fireball might easily be the Spontaneous Caster's only 3rd level damage spell, and possibly their only area effect spell. Sure, they won't waste spell slots casting it in the volcano but their options are sharply curtailed due to walking around with a 'dead' spell known.
Heck, even at 9th level where if they have Cone of Cold, they're still walking around without a lower level area effect they'd normally have, and thus have fewer options for their lower level spells. Their inflexibility is an issue.
So no, this isn't a flat win for the spontaneous caster. It's more complicated than that.
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Aside from spell substitution there isn't much a prepared caster can do to pretend to be spontaneous.
Yes, exclude the part of the class that disproves your point so that your point is valid... That said, the universalist school also goes a decent ways toward "pretending to be spontaneous". Couple that with Bond Conservation and your wizard will get a couple double takes.
Just because a class is not in first place in most categories does not mean that it is bad. Especially because the wizard can likely pull off being in the top 3 in almost every category (sometimes at the same time). That is why I like the wizard. Is the party painfully lacking something? A wizard (or most prepared casters) can find a spell for that.
Is it optimal for my wizard to go hard into Cleric dedication at level 9+? Nope, but it is what will make my party work better. AND as a universalist wizard that will be getting Bond Conservation, I can use the drain bonded items to get more dedication slots than any other class could dream of pulling off with their dedications. I'll be able to cast Heal several times, 'cuz I'm a wizard.
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I'm not sure DBI was intended to be used on mutliclass spell slots, but nothing says you can't, not even the updated <Classname> FAQ errata.
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At level 20 when the campaign is over and it required that you spent 5 feats to multiclass into a divine or primal caster.
I mean, its not like you only get benefits at level 20.
You gain access to divine cantrips and the entire Divine Spell List for the purpose of items like scrolls and staves when you take the first Dedication feat.
And you gain access to lower level divine slots for your entire career, as you add more and more spellcasting dedication feats.
Sure, the 'I get 3 8th level heals' thing is only in effect at 20, but acting like thats the only benefit here is extremely misleading.
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At level 20 when the campaign is over and it required that you spent 5 feats to multiclass into a divine or primal caster.
Meanwhile, Bard and Sorcerers get feats that let them poach spells from other schools and add them to their list of spells. Even yo their signature spells.
Not to mention that Bard and Sorcer can juat multiclass if they really want those extra spells.
They sure can. I will reiterate..
... the wizard can likely pull off being in the top 3 in almost every category...
As I said, they might not be the best, but they can do many of the other things other classes can do as well.
Talk down about the wizard all you like, I feel confident that they place in the top 3 of almost every spellcasting build category. That cannot be said for other classes.
At level 20 when the campaign is over and it required that you spent 5 feats to multiclass into a divine or primal caster.
Meanwhile, Bard and Sorcerers get feats that let them poach spells from other schools and add them to their list of spells. Even yo their signature spells.
Not to mention that Bard and Sorcer can juat multiclass if they really want those extra spells.
They sure can. I will reiterate..
... the wizard can likely pull off being in the top 3 in almost every category...As I said, they might not be the best, but they can do many of the other things other classes can do as well.
Talk down about the wizard all you like, I feel confident that they place in the top 3 of almost every spellcasting build category. That cannot be said for other classes.
What spellcasting building categories are there?
1. Healer: Cleric, Druid, Angelic or Divine Sorcerer, Life Oracle. Not even on the list.
2. Blaster: 1. Elemental Sorcerer 2. Sorcerer with Dangerous sorcery 3. Storm druid 3. Wizard evocation tied with Storm for having force, mental, and necromancy blasts.
3. Utility caster. 1. Wizard for versatility and number of slots. 2. Polymath Bard 3. Any prepared caster who change slots daily.
4. Shapechanger: Druid.
5. Buffer/Debuffer: 1. Bard 2. Witch 3. Any occult caster
6. Battlefield Control: Not sure this role exists any longer or can't be performed better by a martial.
7. Illusionist: 1. Bard: Better skills and Occult list very good for illusion. 2. Wizard illusionist or Occult Charisma caster maybe
8. Summoning: Not really a good option at the moment. Creatures using a max level spell slot are too weak to be of much use compared to other spell options.
What other roles are you seeing? Most of the above roles are not necessary in a group.
The main roles you need are healer which a wizard can't do with wizard abilities.
The other roles can be performed by other casters while bringing more other roles to the table. I think the wizard might be the most limited caster because the Arcane list is the only list that lacks healing. For all the talk of the greatness of the Arcane list, I've found the primal and occult list seem best for overall party support because both have healing with blasting and other useful options.
The primal and divine list have that amazing moment of renewal heal spell.
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What spellcasting building categories are there?
1. Healer: Cleric, Druid, Angelic or Divine Sorcerer, Life Oracle. Not even on the list.
2. Blaster: 1. Elemental Sorcerer 2. Sorcerer with Dangerous sorcery 3. Storm druid 3. Wizard evocation tied with Storm for having force, mental, and necromancy blasts.
3. Utility caster. 1. Wizard for versatility and number of slots. 2. Polymath Bard 3. Any prepared caster who change slots daily.
4. Shapechanger: Druid.
5. Buffer/Debuffer: 1. Bard 2. Witch 3. Any occult caster
6. Battlefield Control: Not sure this role exists any longer or can't be performed better by a martial.
7. Illusionist: 1. Bard: Better skills and Occult list very good for illusion. 2. Wizard illusionist or Occult Charisma caster maybe
8. Summoning: Not really a good option at the moment. Creatures using a max level spell slot are too weak to be of much use compared to other spell options.
What other roles are you seeing? Most of the above roles are not necessary in a group.
The main roles you need are healer which a wizard can't do with wizard abilities.
The other roles can be...
The Arcane tradition has more debuff spells than Primal and more damage spells than Occult. If you want to play a spellcaster that does both, you're better off playing an arcane caster.
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1. I agree. Wizards are far from the top 3. Though I would like to posit an honorable mention for a necromancy staff nexus wizard that dedicates into a divine prepared class and weilds a staff of healing. They can supply a surprising number of heals.
2. Agreed. A spell blending evo wizard definitely ranks in the top 3, but definitely below sorc.
3. Agreed.
4. Agreed. I thought a wizard would have a better presence in this, and they do at higher levels. There is some fun with form retention, but nothing to write home about.
5. Agreed. Though there are some solid debuff spells on the Arcane list.
6. Arcane has the wall spells. So, while martials can do things in this category, the wizard is at least tied with some other casters at the top for this category.
7. Agreed. While bard and an occult witch can probably fill the 1st and 2nd place, an illusionist wizard likely sits nicely at 3rd.
8. While summons are lackluster at the moment, I think a witch rocks the top of this. I think a spell blending conjuration wizard can place here, especially if they pick up cackle from witch and linked focus.
For some people, combat is all that is worth considering. I am not in that boat. Also, not everyone feels the need to play the most optimum option. If it works well enough....why not?
I am positing that a wizard can fulfill many perspective build concepts and party roles. Again, they may not be the best in nearly any of them, but they aren't bad at any either.
The Arcane tradition has more debuff spells than Primal and more damage spells than Occult. If you want to play a spellcaster that does both, you're better off playing an arcane caster.What spellcasting building categories are there?
1. Healer: Cleric, Druid, Angelic or Divine Sorcerer, Life Oracle. Not even on the list.
2. Blaster: 1. Elemental Sorcerer 2. Sorcerer with Dangerous sorcery 3. Storm druid 3. Wizard evocation tied with Storm for having force, mental, and necromancy blasts.
3. Utility caster. 1. Wizard for versatility and number of slots. 2. Polymath Bard 3. Any prepared caster who change slots daily.
4. Shapechanger: Druid.
5. Buffer/Debuffer: 1. Bard 2. Witch 3. Any occult caster
6. Battlefield Control: Not sure this role exists any longer or can't be performed better by a martial.
7. Illusionist: 1. Bard: Better skills and Occult list very good for illusion. 2. Wizard illusionist or Occult Charisma caster maybe
8. Summoning: Not really a good option at the moment. Creatures using a max level spell slot are too weak to be of much use compared to other spell options.
What other roles are you seeing? Most of the above roles are not necessary in a group.
The main roles you need are healer which a wizard can't do with wizard abilities.
The other roles can be...
Depends on the focus spells and extra abilities I can obtain to achieve success at the various roles.
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1. I agree. Wizards are far from the top 3. Though I would like to posit an honorable mention for a necromancy staff nexus wizard that dedicates into a divine prepared class and weilds a staff of healing. They can supply a surprising number of heals.
2. Agreed. A spell blending evo wizard definitely ranks in the top 3, but definitely below sorc.
3. Agreed.
4. Agreed. I thought a wizard would have a better presence in this, and they do at higher levels. There is some fun with form retention, but nothing to write home about.
5. Agreed. Though there are some solid debuff spells on the Arcane list.
6. Arcane has the wall spells. So, while martials can do things in this category, the wizard is at least tied with some other casters at the top for this category.
7. Agreed. While bard and an occult witch can probably fill the 1st and 2nd place, an illusionist wizard likely sits nicely at 3rd.
8. While summons are lackluster at the moment, I think a witch rocks the top of this. I think a spell blending conjuration wizard can place here, especially if they pick up cackle from witch and linked focus.
For some people, combat is all that is worth considering. I am not in that boat. Also, not everyone feels the need to play the most optimum option. If it works well enough....why not?
I am positing that a wizard can fulfill many perspective build concepts and party roles. Again, they may not be the best in nearly any of them, but they aren't bad at any either.
Wizards are playable. I wouldn't run them out of the party or anything. But they could use some punching up to make them more competitive with other caster classes. It's so hard to justify playing one if you want an interesting and more optimized class. They are so bland and their focus options and feats so lacking.
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The illusionist is far better than bard for being an illusionist for a number of reasons:
Being an illusionist means needing to be able to cast spells from spell slots often. The bard is not great there, and being spontanious instead of prepared is a bit of a problem because illusion casting comes in many forms. A bard dedicated to it is doing nothing else with their spells. An illusionist can still pick up most of the essential spells and heighten them as needed without needing to spend as much thought planning out how to get ventriloquism as a level 2 spell, heightening magic aura, heightening illusory object, heightening illusory creature, etc.
But the obvious reason the wizard is a better illusionist is that Silent spell is much, much better than melodious spell. The versatility of having no one notice you while you are casting your spell vs, no one noticing that you are casting a spell while having to be often literally make a fool of yourself, or at least draw everyone's attention with a performance, is pretty big, and you can never cast spells when silenced as a bard.
The illusionist should be trained in deception and get it to expert by level 6, but stealth is the far more important skill for them to focus on, and since illusions mostly all require actions to interact with, before they can be disbelieved, Starting with a 16 INT, 16 Dex and 14 (or even 16 CHA), is a pretty reasonable stat array, especially once you pick up convincing illusion. The feat support for the illusionist is the strongest in the wizard game. It is the one built that wishes they could get more wizard feats than possible. Level 12 is pretty much the only level with out a feat that is a must choose and by then you might very well want to go back and pick up spell penetration or bond conservation/Advanced School spell. The illusionist is so desperate for wizard feats that the metamagic thesis actually looks pretty good on them, although so does spell substitution.
Also, diviner was left off the list, and the wizard, is better at the roll than the enigma bard, particularly because, again, you need lots of spell slots to really be able to perform the roll, and still be capable of doing anything else.