Someone explain to me how does dragon transformation work as RAW? Why do i lose all the benefits from my runes that i spend my hard earn coin to gaim for my maul? I basically nerf my characters damage for extra flight speed ? Can someone explain to me how is this fair for barbs? I heard you need to buy handwraps to get the benefits. But i lose all my equipment anyway as it is absorbed into me . Is it even worth honestly to go with dragon transformation? ( i picked a bronze dragon as my dragon instinct)
I'm pretty sure that your equipment still gives you your stats (AC, to hit, etc) because "you use your own AC and attack bonus" language.
I'm pretty sure that your equipment still gives you your stats (AC, to hit, etc) because "you use your own AC and attack bonus" language.It definitely does.
The damage still looks like a downgrade as compared to standard Barbarian damage, though.
If it does, other runes on weapons will likely also work. Same as with the Wild shape and additional damage runes.
If the verdict here is that you can use your attack including weapon potency runes, that would indicate that for wild shape it would also apply, as it specifically mentions the druid can use his attack value.
Look at it this way, while dragon transformation will do a little less damage, you also get all kinds of utility with having a fly speed, a breath weapon you can use more often, reach, resistance to an energy.
You get some fairly good benefits for a slight decrease in damage.
It's also not relevant until 16th level, which many games will never reach.
The only thing that's questionable to me is whether the item bonus to attack normally provided by say a 2-handed weapon you would normally use would be able to be applied when you transform. If that works then I think there's not really a problem.
Look at it this way, while dragon transformation will do a little less damage, you also get all kinds of utility with having a fly speed, a breath weapon you can use more often, reach, resistance to an energy.
You get some fairly good benefits for a slight decrease in damage.
It's also not relevant until 16th level, which many games will never reach.
The only thing that's questionable to me is whether the item bonus to attack normally provided by say a 2-handed weapon you would normally use would be able to be applied when you transform. If that works then I think there's not really a problem.
Sorry but a "little less damage" is totally wrong. At level 16 your item bonus is +3. That is a massive 50% or more less damage.
There are a lot of different ways of getting the utility abilities at level 16, that don't have this problem. A barbarian of all classes is not going to accept a drop in damage.
The item bonus from hand wraps does apply to the barbarians unarmed attack modifier. But dragon transformation uses the term "attack bonus" so there it is reasonable to assume your normal weapon attack bonus is what you apply.
Look at it this way, while dragon transformation will do a little less damage, you also get all kinds of utility with having a fly speed, a breath weapon you can use more often, reach, resistance to an energy.
You get some fairly good benefits for a slight decrease in damage.
It's also not relevant until 16th level, which many games will never reach.
The only thing that's questionable to me is whether the item bonus to attack normally provided by say a 2-handed weapon you would normally use would be able to be applied when you transform. If that works then I think there's not really a problem.
Sorry but a "little less damage" is totally wrong. At level 16 your item bonus is +3. That is a massive 50% or more less damage.
There are a lot of different ways of getting the utility abilities at level 16, that don't have this problem. A barbarian of all classes is not going to accept a drop in damage.
The item bonus from hand wraps does apply to the barbarians unarmed attack modifier. But dragon transformation uses the term "attack bonus" so there it is reasonable to assume your normal weapon attack bonus is what you apply.
If the attack bonus to your normal weapon applies, then your fine.
If it doesn't then you build around always using dragon form and buy handwrap instead of a weapon. This is a build defining ability, not a casual ability. It is specific to dragon instinct barbarians only. If you decide to pick it up (and you're in no way required to do so) you must figure out if the item bonus from your normal weapon applies and if it doesn't buy handwraps.
You're attack bonus should remain the same in either case then.
But I guess if you're point is "no you can't have your +3 great axe and also the +3 handwraps for when you're a dragon" then yeah that's true. You have to choose what you'd like to do.
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Where do you get +3 item bonus to damage? Potency runes are to hit only, striking runes only add extra dice... Or am I missing something. Also don't forget to add in your weapon specialization damage for unarmed attacks...
Also as pointed out Barbarian dragon form specifically calls out "You transform into a ferocious Large dragon, gaining the effects of 6th-level dragon form except that you use your own AC and attack modifier; you also apply your extra damage from Rage" in it's text. Specific over general in this case applies your normal attack mod (not unarmed per dragon form).
It's indirect. Plus 3 to hit results in a major difference in damage output. It's 50% +
I just assumed readers would understand.The real problem with these battle form spells is it arguable as to what is in your attack bonus, or attack modifier. There are formulas in the rules but the terms are not tight. You have to make some common sense judgements about it, which means people will disagree.
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It's indirect. Plus 3 to hit results in a major difference in damage output. It's 50% +
I just assumed readers would understand.The real problem with these battle form spells is it arguable as to what is in your attack bonus, or attack modifier. There are formulas in the rules but the terms are not tight. You have to make some common sense judgements about it, which means people will disagree.
...yes, which is why everyone is saying that your attack modifier doesn't change.
Lets ask the book. "What is your 'attack modifier'?"
Attack Rolls
When making an attack roll, determine the result by
rolling 1d20 and adding your attack modifier for the
weapon or unarmed attack you’re using. Modifiers for
melee and ranged attacks are calculated differently.Melee attack modifier = Strength modifier (or
optionally Dexterity for a finesse weapon) +
proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties
If that value doesn't change, then...that value doesn't change.
It's mainly for coolness, mobility, and the breath weapon. As far as single target strike damage, a barbarian with a good weapon likely does more damage than the dragon form can do.
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It's indirect. Plus 3 to hit results in a major difference in damage output. It's 50% +
I just assumed readers would understand.The real problem with these battle form spells is it arguable as to what is in your attack bonus, or attack modifier. There are formulas in the rules but the terms are not tight. You have to make some common sense judgements about it, which means people will disagree.
...yes, which is why everyone is saying that your attack modifier doesn't change.
Lets ask the book. "What is your 'attack modifier'?"
If that value doesn't change, then...that value doesn't change.Attack Rolls
When making an attack roll, determine the result by
rolling 1d20 and adding your attack modifier for the
weapon or unarmed attack you’re using. Modifiers for
melee and ranged attacks are calculated differently.Melee attack modifier = Strength modifier (or
optionally Dexterity for a finesse weapon) +
proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties
I do agree with you.
But it doesn't say which attack modifier. Some people look at the barbarians unarmed attack modifier, some people are plugging in the attack modfier of the weapon the barbarian is using.
The wording of the rule is just not precise enough to definitely rule on one or the other.
It feeds back into the wider battle form debate about which "other bonuses" are in use. Then some people try to bring in the general battle form rule and exclude some bonuses and not others.
In this case I have to go with the simplest reading of the rule and use the weapon the barbarian has in hand. But some GMs are going to insist on the barbarians unarmed attack and thus require hand wraps (arguable IMHO), and some GMs are going to totally neuter the power and insist on unarmed attack without an item bonus (wrong IMHO).
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But it doesn't say which attack modifier. Some people look at the barbarians unarmed attack modifier, some people are plugging in the attack modfier of the weapon the barbarian is using.
I will point out that it doesn't say to use "your Unarmed proficiency" or that you do not gain the benefit of item bonuses.
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Even in the worst case scenario (IMO) of needing to buy hand wraps to get the item bonus to attack rolls my earlier point stands.
This isn't a casual power. You build around it, you build around turning into a dragon in every encounter after you get this power. Which means buying hand wraps and getting rid of your old weapon.
Honestly, I feel like what's missing in the line of powers is a rage power which grants you claws or a bite attack or something that would scale up (in terms of damage dice as you level) to encourage you buy hand wraps earlier that would be like preemptive power compared to the complete dragon transformation.
If you had a class feat that while raging you grew claws that did 1d10 (or even 1d8) that gained damage dice at the appropriate time when you would normally get striking runes then that would really make the transition feel less awkward because you wouldn't spend 16 levels wielding a great axe and then realize you need to drop it and buy hand wraps instead.
Honestly, I feel like what's missing in the line of powers is a rage power which grants you claws or a bite attack or something that would scale up (in terms of damage dice as you level) to encourage you buy hand wraps earlier that would be like preemptive power compared to the complete dragon transformation.If you had a class feat that while raging you grew claws that did 1d10 (or even 1d8) that gained damage dice at the appropriate time when you would normally get striking runes then that would really make the transition feel less awkward because you wouldn't spend 16 levels wielding a great axe and then realize you need to drop it and buy hand wraps instead.
I feel like the reason this isn't an option is because of potential concept overlap with Animal Instinct, which is already the dedicated unarmed instinct.
It does indeed leave the dragon transformation in a wierd spot if you don't let the weapon item bonus apply, which is what makes me believe the intent is for weapon item bonus to carry over.
Yeah, it would have some overlap with Animal Instinct, and I agree that's probably why the did it.
And I agree the intention is probably that your great axe potency runes probably apply, and you just use your attack bonus with your great axe in place of whatever the attack bonus with weapons granted by Form of the Dragon 6 is.
However, not everyone agrees that is the case. So it would be great if the devs could clarify.