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I could not customize the eidolon within the PF2 balanced math and make it as interesting as PF1. I gave it a try for a few iterations, but the math is too tight. You won't get much variation. I'll leave that up to them.
I'll list what I think the class needs at the moment:
1. Summoning Font: I think the class needs a summoning font up to 10th level. Anything less than 10th level summons will be ineffective against the highest level enemies. Hopefully this will be included with Master Summoner option. The summoning font will need an accuracy boost. Somewhere around +2 to +3.
2. I would prefer a separate eidolon and summoner, but if not possible then some way to sever the link and still be standing if the summoner takes enough damage to take it to 0 or lower. Maybe you can't re-summon your eidolon for a number of rounds equal to its wounded condition or something like that.
3. This is how I think Manifest Eidolon should work which makes it the equivalent of drawing a weapon and having 2 actions to do something:
MANIFEST EIDOLON [three-actions] CONCENTRATE CONJURATION MAGICAL MANIPULATE SUMMONER TELEPORTATION
Your eidolon appears within 30 feet of you. If your eidolon was already manifested, choose whether to unmanifest them or teleport them to an open space within 30 feet. When you manifest your eidolon, it can use 2 actions.
4. The misfortune effect of rolling twice and taking the worse result has to be fixed. Disadvantage on saves for damaging attacks can be devastating. You should not have to roll twice and take the worst roll increasing your chances of a failure or critical failure.
5. Apex items and skill feats need to be worked into the eidolon.
6. I think the stat array for the eidolon should allow for a maxed stat at 24 like a player character. It is currently maxed at 20. Given the eidolon is the focus of your offense, it should be able to get a 24 stat like a PC.
I would prefer a stat array myself with +1 boosts without normal PC limitations, just to eliminate the odd of feeling of a useless stat increase at lvl 20. Or start with an odd stat array like 17, 17, 17, 10, 12, 10.
7.Visual Manifestation like this instead of sigils: The link between you and your eidolon has a visible manifestation on each of your bodies. This can be anything from flaming eyes if you summon a fire elemental, the symbol of your deity blazing with holy light if summoning an angel, your eyes crackling with electricity if summoning a blue dragon, and so on. You determine the visible manifestation when you choose your eidolon and its association. This visible manifestation cannot be hidden while your eidolon is active. It is clear to any intelligent enemy that this visible manifestation is a link to your eidolon.
8. More action flexibility including at least one independent action for the eidolon.
These are my current recommendations for this iteration of the summoner.
My concerns are:
1. 4 slots doesn't seem like enough casting. I certainly hope this isn't was is intended to be used for summoning as it will be far too weak to be useful in most combats.
2. The overly generic nature of the eidolons really feels lacking. It would be nice if the customization chain with symbiosis and transcendence added a little bit more to each eidolon to make them feel more like the creatures they emulate. Flesh them out a bit more as they increase.
3. If there is not a plan to allow summoners to use summoned creatures to support the eidolon with up to lvl 10 summons, then I hope their damage gets boosted. Because their damage is on the low end with using boost eidolon and that isn't a good feeling at all to use 4 actions to boost and attack doing low damage than other comparable martials with weak cantrips, shared MAP, and even weaker agile options further lowering damage.
A balanced summoner is a priority that we all understand, but a summoner that does lower end damage won't be very attractive or fun.
That's all I've been able to figure out with this version of the summoner. I hope they can spruce it up with all the feedback and make it more interesting, effective, and competitive against other class options before release.
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I don't agree with everything you've got here, but I do agree with other parts and its all pretty grounded. Thanks for a good post.
Question for you - if Summoner has either a full 'powered' focus spell Summon Monster (like Wild Shape is a full powered battle form spell slot for druids) or a Summon Font, both of which progress to a 10th level Summon level at the end game, do you think they actually need more spell slots at that point?
My thought is that if they have the ability to either have a refreshing max level spell slot (a full blown spell in a focus slot) or bonus spell slots for summoning, there's no longer any real argument for more than the 2/2 variable spell slots for the class.
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I don't agree with everything you've got here, but I do agree with other parts and its all pretty grounded. Thanks for a good post.
Question for you - if Summoner has either a full 'powered' focus spell Summon Monster (like Wild Shape is a full powered battle form spell slot for druids) or a Summon Font, both of which progress to a 10th level Summon level at the end game, do you think they actually need more spell slots at that point?
My thought is that if they have the ability to either have a refreshing max level spell slot (a full blown spell in a focus slot) or bonus spell slots for summoning, there's no longer any real argument for more than the 2/2 variable spell slots for the class.
Nope. If they get the summon font, they don't need more spell slots. It will be a very focused play-style not everyone likes though. Your versatility and power will come from summoning creatures rather than individual spells and abilities. Some people will enjoy this, some will not.
It has to be balanced to be usable in standard encounters up to challenge+2 or 3 encounters. When I tested this option against Challenge+2 creatures, it was highly ineffective even with flanking. It will be ineffective if not going up to 10th level and including an accuracy boost.
The summon was effective and interesting against Challenge-2 to +0 creatures using a max level slot for summoning, which you can only do 2 times per day. Which is why I think you need a summoning font type of ability, so you can have one extra creature for nearly every fight to a maximum of 8 fights her day if you maxed out Charisma with an Apex item at lvl 20 with a 1+Charisma casting per day. You would be unlikely to need that, but it would offer some flexibility for using summons for other means like exploration activities.
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It has to be font up to 10th level spells. Summoners need to have access to the Gate spell.
Why? Gate doesn't do much now. It's more a role-play spell you would never use.
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It has to be font up to 10th level spells. Summoners need to have access to the Gate spell.Why? Gate doesn't do much now. It's more a role-play spell you would never use.
Yeah... Gate isn't a summoning spell. It's a teleportation spell. Gate isn't even on my radar for things the summoner needs.
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But there doesn't need to be parity. So much of 2e is completely different that 1e. Every class has changed to fit the new system. Why are you so adamant that the summoner be the exception?
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Yes, I agree that the summoner needs more summoning support, and that the eidolon needs more customisation options.
But I think using class feats is the best way to go about that customisation.
And yes, summoner needs a better way to get summon spells, though I'd rather in the form of a focus spell rather than a font (plus, if it did get a font, it'd probably only be 6 spells at max, like cleric (as they get a max of 6 extra heal spells at level 20, unless you spend your apex on charisma instead of your casting stat)).
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Class feats will never provide enough customization for the Eidolon. Hell. Every character gets loads of customization outside of class feats. They get their own stat array, background, race, heritage, ancestry feat, all before even APPROACHING class feats. Having 1 small bit of customization every even level does NOT feel good.Yes, I agree that the summoner needs more summoning support, and that the eidolon needs more customisation options.
But I think using class feats is the best way to go about that customisation.
And yes, summoner needs a better way to get summon spells, though I'd rather in the form of a focus spell rather than a font (plus, if it did get a font, it'd probably only be 6 spells at max, like cleric (as they get a max of 6 extra heal spells at level 20, unless you spend your apex on charisma instead of your casting stat)).
Eidolons are not player characters.
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Class feats will never provide enough customization for the Eidolon. Hell. Every character gets loads of customization outside of class feats. They get their own stat array, background, race, heritage, ancestry feat, all before even APPROACHING class feats. Having 1 small bit of customization every even level does NOT feel good.Yes, I agree that the summoner needs more summoning support, and that the eidolon needs more customisation options.
But I think using class feats is the best way to go about that customisation.
And yes, summoner needs a better way to get summon spells, though I'd rather in the form of a focus spell rather than a font (plus, if it did get a font, it'd probably only be 6 spells at max, like cleric (as they get a max of 6 extra heal spells at level 20, unless you spend your apex on charisma instead of your casting stat)).
Eidolons get their own stat array, background, race, heritage and ancestry - which is all virtualized and helpfully packaged for you into the eidolon base package.
You then get to customize how it fights, and what skills it gets beyond the one it gets for its "virtual" background.
All the stuff you're wanting is there, its just placed where the player isn't allowed to micromanage it and take only the things they want, instead of things that make sense but they don't want (min maxing).
The only thing that was lost was min maxing. The options are still there/will be there in the final book.
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Rofl. The Summoner is defined by this customization. Having a summoner without this customization is like removing domains from clerics or bloodlines from sorcerors.Eidolons are not player characters.Class feats will never provide enough customization for the Eidolon. Hell. Every character gets loads of customization outside of class feats. They get their own stat array, background, race, heritage, ancestry feat, all before even APPROACHING class feats. Having 1 small bit of customization every even level does NOT feel good.Yes, I agree that the summoner needs more summoning support, and that the eidolon needs more customisation options.
But I think using class feats is the best way to go about that customisation.
And yes, summoner needs a better way to get summon spells, though I'd rather in the form of a focus spell rather than a font (plus, if it did get a font, it'd probably only be 6 spells at max, like cleric (as they get a max of 6 extra heal spells at level 20, unless you spend your apex on charisma instead of your casting stat)).
The Summoner can pick any of the 4 Traditions, and gets an Eidolon based on that, with more coming in the final and after. So this comparison falls rather flat.
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No. They do not. They all start with 16/16/16/10/10/10 with very very slight adjustments.
No they no background, race, heritage, or ancestry. They get a "package" that tells you what stats it gets, what ability it gets, and what spell list you get. There is no mix and matching. There is no customization. All Eidolons are basically the same.
Stop being disingenuous.
They get a package that includes all of the things you asked for - background, ancestry, etc.
You, as the player dont get to fiddle with it - because what players do in that case is take things that benefit them, regardless of whether they are thematic or make sense.
They make pounce-zerglings, or tentacle grab balls, or sixteen armed mega-shivas.
That is not the intention of the Eidolon.
Hence, you no longer get access to take only the things you want in the Eidolons core kit, and must take a thematic package that contains the essential building blocks of an Angel, or Beast, or whatever.
This also means that NEW players can't build an Eidolon that sucks, because all the balance decisions are made for them.
Eidolons are not strictly PCs - Theyre PC lites. They have a lot of the capabilities of a PC, but they're tied to the PC for game balance purposes.
That means the Sum of an Eidolon + Summoner will equal one PC.
That means optional customization primarily through class feats, exactly like for every other PC.
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Claiming all Eidolons are the same is what’s disingenuous.Okay. Lets compare the similarities and differences at level 1.
They all have the same stats (pretty much true with very very slight differences with wis/int)
They all have the same attack, damage, AC, movement domain, movement speed
Whats different?
Oh. One ability.
Hmm.ACs and familiars are more differentiated than Eidolons. Lol. They have loads of awesome customization.
While Eidolons all feel the same.
You forgot type, associated spell list, home plane, their attacks, and all their skills in your list of differences.
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Your argument of, "take things thats better for them rather than be thematic" disproves your whole argument. EVERYONE has this opportunity with feats, heritages, backgrounds, etc. It is INEVITABLE in a system with crunch thats literally already occurring. Would you rather EVERYONE just play pregens?!
Eidolons - as a class feature, and not full character - get exactly the same customization as any other class feature, including (if we're being generous) Animal Companions.
Every single customization for Animal Companions other than base type (which an Eidolon also gets) is from a class feat.
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Really? They do? Familiars say hi.
Your argument of, "take things thats better for them rather than be thematic" disproves your whole argument. EVERYONE has this opportunity with feats, heritages, backgrounds, etc. It is INEVITABLE in a system with crunch thats literally already occurring. Would you rather EVERYONE just play pregens?!Eidolons - as a class feature, and not full character - get exactly the same customization as any other class feature, including (if we're being generous) Animal Companions.
Every single customization for Animal Companions other than base type (which an Eidolon also gets) is from a class feat.
Familiars are equivalent to a class feat. See also Familiar Master.
Some classes get class features that grant a familiar as a class feat equivalent, with minor bonuses (extra familiar abilities) which is also equivalent to a bonus feat.
Ie, the 4 extra familiar abilities a witch gets is directly equivalent to 2 lifetime bonus feats in addition to the familiar.
I am not, and have never been, against the idea of trying to find room for Bonus Feats for more evolutions- but thats how extra customization would come most likely, not some new subsystem.
I've actually thrown out several ideas to that exact effect.
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You keep arguing from the assumed perspective of the Eidolon being the true player character and thus are entitled to the same breadth of feats.
They are not, and so are not entitled to them. They are a class feature, and their customization is from class feats. That's all.
We all understand it is what YOU want, but it is not what they are.
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You obviously never played pf1.You keep arguing from the assumed perspective of the Eidolon being the true player character and thus are entitled to the same breadth of feats.
They are not, and so are not entitled to them. They are a class feature, and their customization is from class feats. That's all.
We all understand it is what YOU want, but it is not what they are.
I did for years.
But this is PF2E. And we are discussing the PF2E playtest version of Summoner. Quite different - which has been pointed out plenty of times.
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You obviously never played pf1.You keep arguing from the assumed perspective of the Eidolon being the true player character and thus are entitled to the same breadth of feats.
They are not, and so are not entitled to them. They are a class feature, and their customization is from class feats. That's all.
We all understand it is what YOU want, but it is not what they are.
I did for years.
But this is PF2E. And we are discussing the PF2E playtest version of Summoner. Quite different - which has been pointed out plenty of times.
if by different you mean worse i agree
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So because this playtest is a playtest and not the final product we are to assume it is the final product and we should just shut our mouths and be yes men? Okay then.
No ones saying that.
Were saying that you should keep in mind the established paradigms in 2E, and that you shouldn't base your expectations on direct translations of things from 1E.
The things you're asking for don't fit the design paradigms of 2E.
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Yes. They do. Lol. Make Eidolons a combination between familiars and ACs with their own outsider/monster theme. Done.So because this playtest is a playtest and not the final product we are to assume it is the final product and we should just shut our mouths and be yes men? Okay then.No ones saying that.
Were saying that you should keep in mind the established paradigms in 2E, and that you shouldn't base your expectations on direct translations of things from 1E.
The things you're asking for don't fit the design paradigms of 2E.
Familiars aren't a "combat" asset that makes attacks or sits on the front lines or functions like a player character in combat.
Theyre a tiny utility piece with hitpoints.
Theres no equivalence to an Eidolon, which fights on par with a PC.
Its an irrelevant comparison when you talk about giving a an Eidolon familiar abilities- MANY of which they essentially already have already, since "talking" and "having hands" are on the familiar list.
Things like extra HP, energy resists, and skill bonuses need to cost an Eidolon feats because they are not limited like familiars.
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I'd gladly sacrifice ALL spells for something like familiar abilities. Its far more thematic.
Your willingness to make that trade is fundamental to the issue.
The ability to trade all the things you Do Not Want (spells in your example) for things you Do Want that make you more powerful (most of the things in the familiar list the Eidolon doesn't already have make it more powerful) is literally the definition of Min Maxing.
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Claiming all Eidolons are the same is what’s disingenuous.Okay. Lets compare the similarities and differences at level 1.
Can we not, actually? You guys have re-litigated this point in almost every thread in this subforum for weeks. I'm pretty darned sure the devs understand the perspectives involved at this point.
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So saying the summoner would feel better if it focused more on the Eidolon is NOT min maxing. Quit using that buzz word.
Dumping spellcasting for more eidolon is literally increasing a weakness for strength.
Shisumo is correct though. I need to stop engaging on this.
Its distracting from legitimate discussion and legitimate criticism.
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Eidolons are not player characters.
They are creatures, so someone has to define their actions. Is it the player or the GM?
With familiars, animal companions, and summons, the player character is actively giving commands, so the creature follows the commands with little free will. My daughter plays a champion with a velociraptor animal companion in my campaign. I reserve the right to control her velociraptor on any turn where her champion does not command it. Usually, it tags along or licks things (she established that Liklik likes to lick things). The velociraptor following without commands lets the champion keep the same three-Stride-actions pace as the rest of the party. I count animal companions as NPCs tightly controlled by PCs.
Hirelings have the free will to improvise on their own and to reject painful commands. They are NPCs.
Eidolons are controlled directly by the player. Therefore, they are not NPCs. The summoner PC does not give commands. While we could roleplay that the eidolon is a minion commanded telepathically as a summoner action and each action the summoner spends on commands gives the eidolon an action, simplicity says that the eidolon has free will but works as a team with the summoner.
The eidolon could a very junior partner in this two-creature team that does not rate character status. However, I think that most players want the eidolon to be as strong as the summoner. That is not a junior partner.
Another option would be that the summoner and eidolon are one consciousness split across two bodies. That fits the shared-action mechanic. That would also counts the eidolon as a player character.
Eidolons lack ancestry and background, so they are missing two aspects of a standard player character. That is part of the problem where Deriven Firelion described the eidolon as too generic.
We could view angel, beast, dragon, or phantom as the ancestry. Maybe Paizo should give the eidolon a background, too. This could be as automatic as copying the summoner's background, just like the eidolon copies the summoner's skill proficiencies. A copied background or a freely chosen background could provide a little more customization that already has tightly controlled numbers.
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We could view angel, beast, dragon, or phantom as the ancestry. Maybe Paizo should give the eidolon a background, too. This could be as automatic as copying the...
The Eidolons virtual "Ancestry" is what determines its type, home plane, abilities etc.
Its virtual "background" is what gives it its bonus skill.
In both cases, Ancestry and Background, its tied to its base type of Angel, Dragon, etc.
I feel like both core aspects are already represented, even if thats implicit and not explicit.
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Verzen.
First of all, lol-ing and rofl-ing again and again at other people looks rude to me. But maybe it's just me.
But the point is that your vision of the Summoner class as an eidolon who is the real PC, paired with a powerless humanoid sidekick, is not the same vision Paizo has, or has ever had. So that will not happen, no matter how much you insist, unless in the future Paizo or some other publisher releases some kind of monster class.
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Considering that's what the PF1 class was, your argument is disingenuous.
The original version of the Summoner was one of the best casters in the game even without the Eidolon. They got extremely powerful spells from the best school of magic, some of them before everyone else.
The Chained version of the Summoner was an issue even without the Eidolon - which is why it too, got nerfed in Unchained.
Where the Summoner was STILL an extremely potent spellcaster.
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Considering that's what the PF1 class was, your argument is disingenuous.The original version of the Summoner was one of the best casters in the game even without the Eidolon. They got extremely powerful spells from the best school of magic, some of them before everyone else.
Yeah, that's literally not even up for debate. The casting of the Summoner was the most broken part of the Summoner, the Eidolon just fostered min-max playstyles and a lot of GM scrutiny for properly built Eidolons.
But Haste/Slow/Create Pit, getting Summoning to max level, etc. were all much bigger problems IMO.
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Considering that's what the PF1 class was, your argument is disingenuous.The original version of the Summoner was one of the best casters in the game even without the Eidolon. They got extremely powerful spells from the best school of magic, some of them before everyone else.
The Chained version of the Summoner was an issue even without the Eidolon - which is why it too, got nerfed in Unchained.
Where the Summoner was STILL an extremely potent spellcaster.
i think considering every class feature of the chained summoner from pf1 was about the eidolon that wasn't the intention
these are the ones dedicated to the eidolon
eidolon, life link, Bond senses, Shield ally, Maker’s call, Transposition, Aspect, Greater shield ally, Life bond, Merge forms, Greater aspect, Twin eidolon
these are the ones that are not
spell casting + summon monster I, II, III etc... all the way to gate
even those who are not eidolon related are very clearly about summoning or buffing so i think the class was indeed focused on the eidolon
Deriven is right in his assessment. I just dont get why its so hard for people to see all those problems and still say things are fine. I just dont get why people are being "yes men", when the issues are so obvious.
It like the meme of the dog sitting in the burning house.
they can see it and in all likelihood they are loving it its just like the wizard discussions all over again