Level 1 feat


Summoner Class

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think the Summoner should 'start' with a level 1 evolution feat like martials do. This would help differentiate them a bit. The feat has to belong to the Eidolon rather than the summoner.


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Like something that would let them choose their base type and grant access to the summoner's magical tradition?

Like beast could have a pounce ability and give the summoner primal spells, or dragon could have a breath weapon and give access to arcane spells.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Ruzza wrote:

Like something that would let them choose their base type and grant access to the summoner's magical tradition?

Like beast could have a pounce ability and give the summoner primal spells, or dragon could have a breath weapon and give access to arcane spells.

Uh. No.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm completely ambivalent on this at this point. It probably doesn't really break anything, but it really feels unneeded with how the class actually functions in real play.

And Summoner's DO already get a ton of stuff at level 1... and we really want Expert Unarmored there too.

If you can convince Mark to add this here for free? Sure, whatever.

But as noted... it doesn't actually seem needed after building several hypothetical Summoners that are all super different.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
KrispyXIV wrote:

I'm completely ambivalent on this at this point. It probably doesn't really break anything, but it really feels unneeded with how the class actually functions in real play.

And Summoner's DO already get a ton of stuff at level 1... and we really want Expert Unarmored there too.

If you can convince Mark to add this here for free? Sure, whatever.

But as noted... it doesn't actually seem needed after building several hypothetical Summoners that are all super different.

All the Eidolons feel the same. I wouldn't count that as "super different" Again. Our Summoner has more customization than our Eidolon.


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KrispyXIV wrote:


And Summoner's DO already get a ton of stuff at level 1... and we really want Expert Unarmored there too.

More than that i think Eidolons need Master prof. in unarmored a little sooner.

It sucks to be a frontliner that has the same AC as a wizard, unable to use armor, and no other real form of defense like Temp HP for 6 levels.


Given the fact summoner and magus are pretty similar in terms of concept:

- 2/2 spells
- Zero lvl 1 feats
- Martial expertise progression

It should be either all of them or none.


It would be nice if level one allowed non-human synthesists, but tons of character concepts need at least level 2. If we didn't get anything else, I'd be cool with a level 1 feat, but I agree that it would also be nice to get earlier unarmored proficiency instead.


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I've been thinking about the existing precedent for the maximum number of choices that one can shove into a class at 1st level, and thus what we can get away with on a Summoner.

Currently, most classes give a single choice of "subclass" at 1st level, which carries some degree of mechanical baggage and potentially an accompanying feat. There is however, a precedent for two 'subclass' decision points; the Wizard.

At first level, as well as ancestry/background/etc, the Wizard gains a thesis, a favourite school of magic, arcane spellcasting, and the rules baggage of the Drain Bonded item and spellbook features.

As such, I *think* it's within the realm of possibility for the Summoner to have an approximately equivalent number of choices.

The rules baggage of the eidolon, boost eidolon, and the manifesting rules/etc is about equivalent to the Drain Bonded Item and spellbook features.

The choice of eidolon type, and the associated abilities is roughly on par with the selection of a school of magic (which comes with a focus spell).

As such, there's room for something equivalent to the thesis, and this is where we can have our 'Summoner Specializations'.

The Eidolonist Specialization which gets two extra evolution feats; one at 1st, and one scaling thereafter (akin to the Metamagic thesis).

The Invoker Specialization gets a Summoner's Font for more summoning. (While a Summoning Focus spell would be cool, it has been pointed out to me that this enables access to a LOT of potential spellcasting through summoned creatures, and thus a Font is the necessary way to go if we do this.)

The Synthesist Specialization gets the 1st level Synthesis feat, plus a few abilities that improve it (like enabling cantrip use). Others can still pick up Synthesis, but won't be able to maximise its effectiveness in combat.

Having a degree of Eidolon customization along the lines of 'choose an ability score package and a trait for your unarmed attack' would be an unprecedented third decision point, but we can fold it in with the Eidolon type decision as choice 1.5.

I think that this is, while certainly pushing the boundaries, still a reasonable and acceptable amount of complexity to lay onto the class at 1st level, and would enable enough of a base for almost everyone to be happy with their decisions from 1st level.


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While I'd really hate to see things options like synthesis, innate summoning, etc locked entirely behind a level 1 path choice, setting it up as a bard muse kinda deal where you can dip into the other options via feat is an idea I like (though I feel I'd call the evolution themed one the evolutionist).

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