Feedback: Guide to Organized Play: Pathfinder Society (second edition) v2.0 (September 2020 Update)

[Doug Hahn]

I've also compiled the guide on Read the Docs, for anyone interested:

https://org-play-2e-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html.

The documentation is searchable, mobile-friendly, open-source, versioned, and automates cross-referencing for the author (I added some for training and stuff based on Hmm's comment above).

It also generates a new ePub and PDF (direct link to the PDF) whenever I push changes. You can get the latest PDF and ePub version by clicking on the "latest" button at the bottom of the sidebar.

Since it's open-source anyone can visit the GitHub repository and create a pull request to fix any errors (I already got one from a local player who helped me fix some typos of my own making). I'm sure there are more — this is a work in progress — but maybe it'll be useful to others too.

[Hulking Hurler]

Thank you.

[Ascalaphus]

Pip Hip Hooray wrote:

I plea that the campaign reconsider the idea of granting common access to regional languages for Pathfinder Society agents. It fits the story of our world-spanning organization, and I don't think it breaks any game balance.

Yours,
Hmm

I agree. In a home game, region-bound access to languages is something you'd use for character creation, but then in the course of the campaign you'd gain access to new languages if you visit foreign countries.

In PFS, our adventures take us all over the world. The "natural" (but impractical) thing to do would be to unlock the language of any country your character has played an adventure in.

Rather than that bookkeeping nightmare, I think it makes sense to just unlock all regional/ethnic languages, in the same way that the Pathfinder Agent dedication is unlocked for all characters instead of only those with Absalom as home region and in the same way that all Pathfinders have access to Wayfinders.

[Watery Soup]

Doug Hahn wrote:

Since it's open-source anyone can visit the GitHub repository and create a pull request to fix any errors (I already got one from a local player who helped me fix some typos of my own making). I'm sure there are more — this is a work in progress — but maybe it'll be useful to others too.

I don't know how to GitHub.

The Envoys' Alliance boon table is missing in your version. It exists on the other version, so this appears to be an importation/parsing error.

[Doug Hahn]

Watery Soup wrote:

The Envoys' Alliance boon table is missing in your version. It exists on the other version, so this appears to be an importation/parsing error.

Thanks! This was a Doug error; I mistyped the name of the table's .csv file in the source document.

I put a new version up with the table; the PDF is also updated. (You might need to refresh your browser cache.)

[William Ronald]

Pip Hip Hooray wrote:

Cross-Posted from Home Region and Languages in Guide 2.0 thread

I am bummed that the language of the guide changed from regional languages being common choices to uncommon choices. It's affecting all of my character's language choices, since all four of my characters selected regional languages at creation that made sense to their back stories. I will now have to change those languages to the ones to which their ancestries provided access.

I did notice that the CRB put regional languages as uncommon options, but with the guide listing them as common, I assumed that it was an uncommon option made available to Pathfinders (like Wayfinders or Kobold ancestry) because of our extensive travel.

I am holding back on shuffling around Pip's languages for the moment because she is from Absalom, and there is some uncertainty on whether being from Absalom allows access to all the regional languages, as suggested on p. 12 of Lost Omens World Guide and p. 432 of the Core Rule Book. She's a Gnome polyglot with linguist archetype and a high intelligence, which makes the process of disentangling her various languages more daunting then normal.

My other three characters are going to have to have to adapt and shift out the regional tongues that I thought would be fitting to their backstories with ancestral ones, which in my mind is ripping out part of their personal backstories.

I plea that the campaign reconsider the idea of granting common access to regional languages for Pathfinder Society agents. It fits the story of our world-spanning organization, and I don't think it breaks any game balance.

Yours,
Hmm

I would like some clarification as well on languages. I have a human wizard from Absalom who is human with mixed ancestries. (The family has been in Absalom probably from the beginning and is a working class/middle class family.) We have had characters from Absalom end up in Vidrian and Minkai. Would it not make sense that the Society would send agents who learn languages of those regions to respond to Venture Captain requests? Also, I would expect one of the benefits of joining Pathfinder Society is that you are to explore the world and meet world explorers -- who can probably provide access to regional languages.

[logsig]

In the section for Pathfinder Training consumables, the link to Archives of Nethys for the Potion of Tongues (should be ID=194) goes to Potion of Quickness (ID=191).

[pjrogers]

What's the situation with boon slots? I don't fully understand this part of the new guide...

"Boons are rewards that can be applied to a character. Common types of boons include AchievemnetPoints (AcP), Chronicle, or Faction. Boons often have traits that describe how the boon applies. There are some boon traits that deserve specific mention:

Advanced A boon with the Advanced trait is typically more powerful than other boons.Characters may only benefit from one advanced boon during an adventure.

Ally A boon with the Ally trait often places a Pawn. An Ally boon that places a Pawn cannot be used if the PC has already placed a second Pawn this game..

Promotional These boons reward Players for promoting the society, or for exceptional contributions to the campaign. Characters may only benefit from one advanced boon during an adventure. TYPO HERE, SHOULD READ "promotional boon" rather than "advanced boon."

Unless a boon states otherwise, you can only apply one of any given boon to a character."  

What are the limits on boons that aren't Advanced or Promotional or require the placement of a Pawn? Can I use as many as I want during an adventure? Can I only use one additional one during an adventure? Can I use as many as I want during an adventure as long as I only apply any given boon once? This last is how I understand the language here, but I'm far from certain and would greatly appreciate some hip enlightenment from you kids.

[FLite]

Aside from those limits, you can apply as many as you own during an adventure.

That said, *most* boons can only be bought once, so you will only have 1.

One or two boons say you can only benefit from one copy of that boon per adventure.

[Gary Bush]

Seems like we are moving back to the problem with boon that 1e caused.

[FLite]

How so?

[Nefreet]

I imagine that Gary is referring to people shuffling through their stack of Chronicles when a Saving Throw is required while saying something like, "Hold up! I think I have a +1 against Demons here somewhere! Lemme look!", with the added conundrum of, "Oh! That's right! It's on my Paizo profile, somewhere in my Downloads. Wow the site is loading slow today..."

Which of course, the onus is on the player to be prepared before game, but I still imagine it will come up.

[tivadar27]

A couple of high-level things:
1) Give the Field-Commissioned agents access to some feats that *don't* have to do with Lore, Diplomacy, or Stealth. I'd imagine there are plenty of crafters or Performers that want to do FC, and the list of feats are extremely narrow.
2) Yes, make regional languages non-uncommon. It's pretty ridiculous that my human can speak Elven or Draconic, but not Osirioni for example.
3) For spells, I understand moving away from auto-heightening for the full list, but maybe include a set of solid level 1 spells, and allow only those to be heightened? Magic Missle, Heal, Soothe, and Summon Animal are 4 that probably give enough versatility if nothing else works.

[Gary Bush]

Giving field commission that would make more people field commissioned. They already get extra gold, either as earned income or for other downtime activities.

Need to keep a balance.

[tdazzle]

Couple of links I found that are still pointed to old edition guide:

• Character Creation §8 - Purchasing Guidelines is broken, should be Purchasing Guidelines
• Character Creation §10 - The World of Pathfinder Society is outdated, should be The World of Golarion
• GM Rewards, GM Glyphs section - replays is broken, but I'm not actually sure what it is intending to link to

tivadar27 wrote:

2) Yes, make regional languages non-uncommon. It's pretty ridiculous that my human can speak Elven or Draconic, but not Osirioni for example.

Are we certain that the intent wasn't simply to emphasize the previous relationship between home region and regional languages? I agree the reading doesn't sound that way but it's kind of shocking to me that there would be no way to know a regional language at level 1...

[NielsenE]

Gary Bush wrote:

Giving field commission that would make more people field commissioned. They already get extra gold, either as earned income or for other downtime activities.

Need to keep a balance.

Agreed a couple of feats that give options for downtime (Bargain Hunter is good) or ameliorate the sting of bad luck (Experienced Professional) feels about the maximal amount of synergy with the extra days. Kinda surprised by Experienced Smuggler being on the list, the level -1 buff is stronger synergy than I would have expected in a free feat.

[FLite]

tdazzle wrote:

Couple of links I found that are still pointed to old edition guide:

• Character Creation §8 - Purchasing Guidelines is broken, should be Purchasing Guidelines
• Character Creation §10 - The World of Pathfinder Society is outdated, should be The World of Golarion
• GM Rewards, GM Glyphs section - replays is broken, but I'm not actually sure what it is intending to link to

tivadar27 wrote:

2) Yes, make regional languages non-uncommon. It's pretty ridiculous that my human can speak Elven or Draconic, but not Osirioni for example.

Are we certain that the intent wasn't simply to emphasize the previous relationship between home region and regional languages? I agree the reading doesn't sound that way but it's kind of shocking to me that there would be no way to know a regional language at level 1...

There are a number of ways. Some of them are even free.

Be from the region
Have the Ethnicity (at least for humans)
Own the world traveler boon
Multilingual from your background
Multi lingual from a first level skill feet (Rogues get this, not sure who else)

The world of Golarion is not a well connected world. Most people do not move far from their home. Language is meant to be a meaningful barrier.

Any given human from (for example) Varisia probably has way more access to elves, gnomes and dwarves than they have to Osirioni.

[Blake's Tiger]

Jared Thaler wrote:

There are a number of ways. Some of them are even free.

Be from the region
Have the Ethnicity (at least for humans)
Own the world traveler boon
Multilingual from your background
Multi lingual from a first level skill feet (Rogues get this, not sure who else)

The world of Golarion is not a well connected world. Most people do not move far from their home. Language is meant to be a meaningful barrier.

Any given human from (for example) Varisia probably has way more access to elves, gnomes and dwarves than they have to Osirioni.

Spoiler:

The Acadamae is a wizard's college in the Varisian city of Korvosa which attracts students from as far away as distant Geb.

The University of Korvosa is located at the University ward of the Heights District of Korvosa. The University provides mundane higher education and holds a great reputation, but not as much as the more prestigious Acadamae.

However...

Alex Speidel wrote:

Please use this thread to leave feedback on the Guide itself. To facilitate our use of this thread, do not use this thread for program implementation/campaign rules discussion. We will delete off topic posts. If you wish to comment on an aspect of the Pathfinder Society (2nd edition) play experience, please start new threads as applicable.

See HERE for the discussion on why several of us feel this sweeping change to the rule invalidates common and fun adventurer tropes, makes little to no sense, and ultimately serves no actual role in PFS scenarios.

[TwilightKnight]

pjrogers wrote:

Ally A boon with the Ally trait often places a Pawn. An Ally boon that places a Pawn cannot be used if the PC has already placed a second Pawn this game.

Wait, does this mean that my ranger with an animal companion cannot have a hireling?

[tivadar27]

At a higher level, you might want to specify a transition period/state when this goes live. Perhaps this will come out in a blog, but some official policy would also be nice. It's unclear, at least to me, whether this being online implies everyone must immediately switch over (ignoring the fact that how to switch is not obvious for many things), or if there is some period where GMs/players have to update/adapt to the fact that there's been significant rule changes.

[tivadar27]

TwilightKnight wrote:

pjrogers wrote:

Ally A boon with the Ally trait often places a Pawn. An Ally boon that places a Pawn cannot be used if the PC has already placed a second Pawn this game.

Wait, does this mean that my ranger with an animal companion cannot have a hireling?

It depends on if hirelings will place a token. I don't believe that's been specified yet, but I'm hoping the answer is they don't.

[First World Bard]

I don’t believe hirelings place tokens. All they can do during combat is Recall Knowledge. I suspect that passage is future-looking, and there may be Ally boons in the future which do place tokens.

[TwilightKnight]

First World Bard wrote:

All they can do during combat is Recall Knowledge

Hmm, but can they? If they aren’t on the table and immune to any combat effects, can they be whispering in the character’s ear? I can imagine that to be table variation.

[NielsenE]

From the new guide:

Quote:

Hireling Boons
Replace: “The hireling’s result cannot be modified by class abilities or spells, but it can be improved by a successful Aid check. ”
With: “The hireling doesn’t have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses, status bonuses, or fortune effects. Abilities that grant you a circumstance bonus do not grant that circumstance bonus to your hireling even though you are using your action to attempt the check. You cannot aid your own hireling.”

Replace: The hireling does not participate directly in combat
With: You cannot use the hirelings skills except recall knowledge in combat, and the hireling cannot be affected by, or affect combat.

Replace: “Special You can purchase this boon multiple times.”
With:“Special You can purchase this boon multiple times, but may only benefit from one hireling boon on any given adventure”

Recall knowledge is explicitly (and the only allowed use) of the hireline in combat, and thus I don't think should be subject to table variation.

[Online Guide Team Lead - JTT]

TwilightKnight wrote:

pjrogers wrote:

Ally A boon with the Ally trait often places a Pawn. An Ally boon that places a Pawn cannot be used if the PC has already placed a second Pawn this game.

Wait, does this mean that my ranger with an animal companion cannot have a hireling?

I am pretty sure this has been answered several times.

Hirelings do not place pawns. There is some more expanded discussion of what places a pawn here.

[Nefreet]

Feedback: I would suggest getting rid of that first sentence.

Currently, no Ally Boon places a pawn, so leading with "often" will only continue to generate this same confusion.

[Blake's Tiger]

I don't disagree with your goal, only your use of the absolute, "no."

Guide wrote:

Leshy Companion

ally

Prerequisites Verdant Wheel Tier 2

Cost 4 Fame

You can select the Leshy Familiar feat as a 2nd level class feat, even if you are not a druid. You can ignore the prerequisite of belonging to the leaf order.

[Online Guide Team Lead - JTT]

Nefreet wrote:

Feedback: I would suggest getting rid of that first sentence.

Currently, no Ally Boon places a pawn, so leading with "often" will only continue to generate this same confusion.

I actually could have sworn I replaced often with some, but it may have gotten reverted when we switched language from minions back to pawns.

[Nefreet]

Blake's Tiger wrote:

I don't disagree with your goal, only your use of the absolute, "no."

Guide wrote:

Leshy Companion

ally

Prerequisites Verdant Wheel Tier 2

Cost 4 Fame

You can select the Leshy Familiar feat as a 2nd level class feat, even if you are not a druid. You can ignore the prerequisite of belonging to the leaf order.

I'll meet you in the middle with a "half-no", since having a Familiar does not necessarily mean you are using a pawn for it.

[sanwah68]

So, if you are mounted during combat, is it one Pawn or two?? I have a player that is going mounted champion with AC.

[Nefreet]

I believe that is two, since both the PC and the AC are taking part in combat.

[Online Guide Team Lead - JTT]

Sandra Wilkinson wrote:

So, if you are mounted during combat, is it one Pawn or two?? I have a player that is going mounted champion with AC.

With an AC, definitely 2. I am trying to see if we can get an exception in for "purchased mount just to move around battle field." We will see if that happens.

[Ascalaphus]

Online Guide Team Lead - JTT wrote:

Sandra Wilkinson wrote:

So, if you are mounted during combat, is it one Pawn or two?? I have a player that is going mounted champion with AC.

With an AC, definitely 2. I am trying to see if we can get an exception in for "purchased mount just to move around battle field." We will see if that happens.

I don't think creating such a split between "one combat mount counts as a pawn, another combat mount doesn't a pawn" is a good idea.

Besides, non-Companion mounts don't have a great combat shelf life anyway. I think it's better to have a good rule saying something like

You can have a mount for overland travel which doesn't count against the pawn limit, but it doesn't participate in combat. If combat breaks out while you would be riding it, it's assumed that you dismounted, and the mount isn't placed on the map.

[TwilightKnight]

Not a fan of exceptions because it places a hierarchy of value. Why do you get a mount that doesn’t count as a pawn, but I don’t get that treatment for my pack animal? It carries some of my gear that I need access to in combat

[tivadar27]

TwilightKnight wrote:

Not a fan of exceptions because it places a hierarchy of value. Why do you get a mount that doesn’t count as a pawn, but I don’t get that treatment for my pack animal? It carries some of my gear that I need access to in combat

I don't think this is really an exception. A pawn is something that's placed on the map for combat. This just clarifies that mounts used outside of combat are legal and don't count as pawns, even if combat does spontaneously break out.

EDIT: Though the wording here is highly confusing... "no character can place more than 2 pawns." Characters don't place pawns, players do. Does this count the character, as it's stated above "each PC is typically represented by a pawn"?

[Gary Bush]

tivadar27 wrote:

EDIT: Though the wording here is highly confusing... "no character can place more than 2 pawns." Characters don't place pawns, players do. Does this count the character, as it's stated above "each PC is typically represented by a pawn"?

By saying character it eliminates them as a pawn. A character has already been placed so it cannot be counted again.

And I see the character, because of a feat, class feature, spell, or some other mechanism, as the entity placing a pawn.

Of course, it is all metaphorical anyways because how can a character place a pawn, so thinking about it to hard just causes headaches.

Best to settle on something that everyone understands than try to wordsmith it to death.

[TwilightKnight]

tivadar27 wrote:

I don't think this is really an exception

If the rule is "no player can place more than 2 pawns, except a purchased mount just for moving around battle field," then it is clearly an exception. Again, that creates a hierarchy of value. Whatever reasoning used to justify a mount as an exception to the standard rule could be used to justify other purposes for an additional pawn.

This generally happens whenever we deviate from the core rules. Adding a rule creates unplanned restrictions or opens unforeseen exploits that can create a lengthy requirement for clarifying rules. Its just not worth all the effort, especially when the core rules already have inherent limitations that restrict much of the problem already. Seems like we are chasing dimes.

[Donald]

I would add a link to the Character Options Blog on the Character Creation page in the 3. Select an Ancestry section.

[Zero the Nothing]

Jared Thaler wrote:

Multilingual from your background
Multi lingual from a first level skill feet (Rogues get this, not sure who else)

Dude, I'm not trying to waste feats on being able to speak a few languages.

Jared Thaler wrote:

The world of Golarion is not a well connected world. Most people do not move far from their home. Language is meant to be a meaningful barrier.

Any given human from (for example) Varisia probably has way more access to elves, gnomes and dwarves than they have to Osirioni.

It already is a meaningful barrier. I can only have so many languages that I can speak. Also there are uncommon languages, which Human regional languages shouldn't be part of.

The world of Golarian isn't well connected for normal people. We're PATHFINDERS. We have Lodges all over the world and we're constantly setting up new ones. We have Pathfinders from nearly every continent. All we do is travel. Our headquarters is in Absalom. Where the Foreign Quarter is. Wouldn't Pathfinders be able to learn other languages as part of their training?

[TwilightKnight]

I have to agree. I would think our position as Pathfinder agents would provide access to all uncommon regional dialects less maybe some "special" ones that leadership might deem are a bit more uncommon than the typical uncommon language, assuming that they have some specific reason to want the pool of uncommon languages to be restricted from players for campaign/meta reasons. Languages are already a bit more restrictive than they were in 1E and only the most dedicated linguists are going to have more than a few and those that are dedicated are giving up resources to focus on that so they should be rewarded for it. I guess I don't understand the necessity to revert the rule we had for season one. I do not encounter nor hear of anyone disrupting a game because of the languages they had. So what is the intended result here? What are we trying to fix or accomplish by restricting regional dialects?

[Angel Hunter D]

Beyond that, if languages are so restricted I better not see another 1-4 scenario scenario where people only speak an uncommon language without in scenario support.

[tivadar27]

TwilightKnight wrote:

tivadar27 wrote:

I don't think this is really an exception

If the rule is "no player can place more than 2 pawns, except a purchased mount just for moving around battle field," then it is clearly an exception. Again, that creates a hierarchy of value. Whatever reasoning used to justify a mount as an exception to the standard rule could be used to justify other purposes for an additional pawn.

This is not what the rules say/the suggestion. A pawn is a something placed in combat. The suggestion was that creatures used exclusively for overland travel be called out as not-pawns, which they, by definition, are. This just clarifies that if combat breaks out, you're allowed to ignore your mount and assume you've dismounted. Were you referring to a suggestion different from the one directly above your original post?:

"You can have a mount for overland travel which doesn't count against the pawn limit, but it doesn't participate in combat. If combat breaks out while you would be riding it, it's assumed that you dismounted, and the mount isn't placed on the map."

[TwilightKnight]

My comment was based solely on the proposed language as suggested by JTT. Since he’s the lead for the Guide team, I give his posts a bit more weight than the rest of us. His does not suggest anything to do with overland or exploration mode. If that was his intent, then my objection is much less applicable.

Quote:

With an AC, definitely 2. I am trying to see if we can get an exception in for "purchased mount just to move around battle field." We will see if that happens.

[tivadar27]

TwilightKnight wrote:

My comment was based solely on the proposed language as suggested by JTT. Since he’s the lead for the Guide team, I give his posts a bit more weight than the rest of us. His does not suggest anything to do with overland or exploration mode. If that was his intent, then my objection is much less applicable.

Quote:

With an AC, definitely 2. I am trying to see if we can get an exception in for "purchased mount just to move around battle field." We will see if that happens.

Ahh okay, yes, we misunderstood each other then, sorry about that. I'd agree, having an exception for mounts used for in-combat movement seems inappropriate.

[Eledriel Darkfire]

I do have several items of feedback and questions both on the new guide and on the blog post with the new clarifications:

- There are some items I miss from the lists for school consumables that were included before - mainly it is the Bloodseaker Beak ... I do not see a real reason why items like that should be removed?
- I'd second what some others already said - we need more hightened scrolls in the consumables section, and generally some of the removed options don't seem so logical. Why is Mage Armor removed? Why is heal only available at so few levels? What about Soothe as an option for occult casters?

- what if the needed retraining of Skill / Feat options for the changed schools makes other choices illegal that used the school choices as prerequisites? Are these retrainings also free?
- I think, at least some additional guidance on language options would be good

- How will it be handled if a character wants to collect reputation for several factions, now that the faction champion boons are gone? Can the character simply decide to use another faction for the next adventure?

- will the Game Boons for 0 cost to upgrade Hirelings (expert, master, professional) work with "old" Hirelings that were purchased in the old system using Fame?
- will Fame that is left after December 31st be converted to AcP oder something else somehow?
- now that all chronicle boons are listed on the boons page - is the ruling that the boons for the scenarios are considered spoilers gone? Or will there be an automatic filtering later on that only shows the boons that are already unlocked by the player?

[Online Guide Team Lead - JTT]

Answering the ones I can answer.

Eledriel Darkfire wrote:

- How will it be handled if a character wants to collect reputation for several factions, now that the faction champion boons are gone? Can the character simply decide to use another faction for the next adventure?

Yes. before each adventure, when you sign in on the character sheet, you choose which faction you support that game.

Eledriel Darkfire wrote:

- will Fame that is left after December 31st be converted to AcP oder something else somehow?

It seems highly unlikely to happen.

[Online Guide Team Lead - JTT]

Change log from 0.x to 2.0 is up on the guide. I think we caught everything, let me know if you see something we missed.

[logsig]

Online Guide Team Lead - JTT wrote:

Change log from 0.x to 2.0 is up on the guide. I think we caught everything, let me know if you see something we missed.

The link called out below in Consumables (Level 13 - 14) is still incorrect.

logsig wrote:

In the section for Pathfinder Training consumables, the link to Archives of Nethys for the Potion of Tongues (should be ID=194) goes to Potion of Quickness (ID=191).

[Online Guide Team Lead - JTT]

Yup. We are still working on 2.0 errata. Those will be fixed in 2.01.

We have a list.

[Nefreet]

Not so much feedback, but seeking clarification on this statement:

After the Adventure wrote:

The Pathfinder Society takes care of its members by removing most ongoing nonpermanent negative conditions and repairing agents’ damaged gear to the condition it was in at the start of the scenario.

Does this clause override the general rule that "a destroyed item can’t be Repaired"?

That would be very useful for shield-using characters, or casters overcharging wands.