What are the options for a rogue who wants to use non-traditionally-roguelike weaspons, or a cleric who wants to use a weapon other than the god's favoured weapon?
I know of the fighter multiclass:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=714
and ancestral weapons:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=11
but both take 2 or 3 feats to leave you behind compared to the default, so don't really seem attractive.
Is there anything else, or is that it until an archetype comes up catering to the weapon you want (like Aldori Duelist)?
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Mauler Dedication will give you scaling proficiency in all two-handed weapons AND all weapons with the two-handed trait. So this includes the Bastard Sword, which would be a good alternative to a longsword.
The Archer Archetype Dedication will do the same for all bows and crossbows.
I knew Mauler existed, but hadn't realised the proficiency was scaling, nor considered that it also gets you some nice one handed weapons.
Fighter and ancestral weapons seem even less attractive now, and if Mauler Dedication is OK, it makes me think a single simple "this one weapon is now effectively a class weapon" feat wouldn't be a problem in most cases.
I knew Mauler existed, but hadn't realised the proficiency was scaling, nor considered that it also gets you some nice one handed weapons.
Fighter and ancestral weapons seem even less attractive now, and if Mauler Dedication is OK, it makes me think a single simple "this one weapon is now effectively a class weapon" feat wouldn't be a problem in most cases.
It's one feat (dedication) yes, but it also blocks entry to other dedications unless you spend two more feats, and that's the real intended cost there.
So it's fine if you didn't have plans beyond that, but puts a limit on how much you can grab from others.
Also, don't forget that even with scaling weapon proficiency, rogue still has the problem of sneak attack being limited to certain kinds of weapons, and I know of no way around it. So playing a rogue who can't access sneak attack is just a terrible idea really. You wouldn't be effective in combat and would really just be there for skills.
And in the case I think you're better just playing an Investigator.
Handy hint: When looking for non multiclass archetypes found in the APG there are some archetype feats which carry the SKILL tag which allows you to take them as a skill feat, not a class feat. For example the Sentinel archetype (allows heavier armor) gives you a skill feat option at level 4 and another at level six so if you took both you would be eligible for another archetype at level 8 and you haven't passed any juicy class feats. This is not the case with the Mauler, unfortunately.
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For example the Sentinel archetype (allows heavier armor) gives you a skill feat option at level 4 and another at level six so if you took both you would be eligible for another archetype at level 8
There's actually nothing preventing you from getting that second dedication right at level 6. You can pick your new stuff on level up in any order, including taking one thing to qualify for another. It's in the leveling rules somewhere.
For specific examples, the Mauler dedication opens up the Spiked Chain and Elven Curve Blade for finesse rogues. Thug Rogue is hard-locked to simple weapons so there's not really getting around that (other than the probably-soon-to-be-errata'd weirdness with Orc Weapon Familiarity).
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Handy hint: When looking for non multiclass archetypes found in the APG there are some archetype feats which carry the SKILL tag which allows you to take them as a skill feat, not a class feat. For example the Sentinel archetype (allows heavier armor) gives you a skill feat option at level 4 and another at level six so if you took both you would be eligible for another archetype at level 8 and you haven't passed any juicy class feats. This is not the case with the Mauler, unfortunately.
And here is a list of those.
Acrobat
Graceful Leaper 7 - Acrobatics (Dex)
Animal Trainer
Insistent Command 8 - Nature (Wis)
Archaeologist
Settlement Scholastics 4 - Lore (Int)
Scholastic Identification 7 - Society (Int)
Cavalier
Quick Mount 4 - Nature (Wis)
Dandy
Distracting Flattery 4 - Deception (Cha)
Fabricated Connections 7 - Deception (Cha)
Party Crasher 7 - Society (Int)
Gladiator
Fancy Moves 4 - Performance (Cha)
Herbalist
Fresh Ingredients 2 - Nature (Wis)
Horizonwalker
Sure Foot 4 - Acrobatics (Dex) and Athletics (Str)
Linguist
Multilingual Cipher 4 - Society (Int)
Phonetic Training 4 - Society (Int)
Analyze Idiolect 6 - Deception (Cha) and Society (Int)
Read Shibboleths 7 - Society (Int)
Loremaster
Orthographic Mastery 4 - Lore (Int)
Magaambyan Attendant
Emerald Boughs Accustomation 6 - Society (Int)
Uzunjati Storytelling 6 - Lore (Int)
Uzunjati Recollection 10 - Lore (Int)
Medic
Treat Condition 4 - Medicine (Wis)
Holistic Care 6 - Diplomacy (Cha)
Oozemorph
Hideous Ululation 4 - Performance (Cha)
Pathfinder Agent
Forced Entry 6 - Athletics (Str)
Recognize Threat 8 - Lore (Int)
Pirate
Rope Runner 4 - Acrobatics (Dex) and Athletics (Str)
Ritualist
Resourceful Ritualist 6 - Arcana (Int), Nature (Wis), Occultism (Int), or Religion (Wis)
Scrollmaster
Unravel Mysteries 8 - Arcana (Int), Nature (Wis), Occultism (Int), or Religion (Wis)
Scrounger
Reverse Engineering 4 - Crafting (Int)
Expert Disassembly 7 - Crafting (Int)
Sentinel
Steel Skin 4 - Survival (Wis)
Vigilante
Hidden Magic 4 - Arcana (Int), Nature (Wis), Occultism (Int), or Religion (Wis)
Minion Guise 4 - Deception (Cha)
Subjective Truth 7 - Deception (Cha)
Zephyr Guard
Know the Beat 3 - Lore (Int)
What are the options for a rogue who wants to use non-traditionally-roguelike weaspons...
Ruffian Rogue lets you Sneak Attack with lots of simple weapons. Things like morningstars, spears, sickles, staves, and longspears aren't what I typically associate with Rogues.
There are some fun multiclass options for staves. With Wizard MC, you can build a pseudo-staff-magus. With Druid MC, you could grow your Verdant Weapon into a staff that is also your primal focus.
A longspear-wielding Rogue also seems appealing both for reach and the 1d8 damage die.
Yeah, what we really need is an Archetype for one-handed weapons like Mauler is for two-handed. That'd work well and fix the remaining hole in weapon options IMO.
Duelist covers a bit of this.
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Yeah, what we really need is an Archetype for one-handed weapons like Mauler is for two-handed. That'd work well and fix the remaining hole in weapon options IMO.Duelist covers a bit of this.
Not really. This is mostly about proficiencies and the Duelist doesn't grant any.
The Viking Archetype can get you some one-handed weapons, though. It does cost you 3 feats, so it's the most expensive option, especially since you only get four weapons. Well, and Shield Block.
Yeah, what we really need is an Archetype for one-handed weapons like Mauler is for two-handed. That'd work well and fix the remaining hole in weapon options IMO.Duelist covers a bit of this.Not really. This is mostly about proficiencies and the Duelist doesn't grant any.
...
Hence the 'bit.' You don't get new weapons, but you do get some cool things to do with the one-handed weapons that you already have.
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Yeah, what we really need is an Archetype for one-handed weapons like Mauler is for two-handed. That'd work well and fix the remaining hole in weapon options IMO.Duelist covers a bit of this.
As Blave notes, not for Proficiencies it doesn't. And Proficiencies are really the issue that still needs an Archetype to fill the gap.
Viking does a little bit of this, it's true, but only in a very roundabout way, and at too high a cost if this is all you're going for.
Hence the 'bit.' You don't get new weapons, but you do get some cool things to do with the one-handed weapons that you already have.
Oh, it's definitely a similar thematic space, but it doesn't really solve the mechanical issue in question.
TBH I really don't like Mauler giving proficiency as its first feat - makes it pretty frustrating for a lot of builds that would want to use a big two-hander with power attack but already has proficiency in the weapon it wants to use. A TWF Barbarian can get double slice for one feat, but a greataxe ranger has to buy a completely dead feat before getting power attack? Makes no sense to me.
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TBH I really don't like Mauler giving proficiency as its first feat - makes it pretty frustrating for a lot of builds that would want to use a big two-hander with power attack but already has proficiency in the weapon it wants to use. A TWF Barbarian can get double slice for one feat, but a greataxe ranger has to buy a completely dead feat before getting power attack? Makes no sense to me.
I do not understand why you find it frustrating. If your hypothetical greataxe ranger wants power attack, he can get it with the same number of feats by taking Fighter Multiclass and Basic Maneuver (Power Attack). You don't need Mauler and have a better option (as it gives you a skill too).
BUT, a lot of other classes do NEED the 2h weapon proficiency provided by Mauler and being able to pick up full proficiency for one feat is very nice.
Frankly, while the Mauler can be used to good effect by a fighter, barbarian or ranger, I really see the archetype targeted at characters who do not have proficiency with 2h weapons. This lets you build a cleric that uses reach weapons, or a bard that uses a bladed scarf, or a Rogue with an Elven Curve Blade.
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I'm getting a bit frustrated with how paths to fairly common and apparently acceptable concepts seems unexpectedly convoluted...
A cleric who wants a (non-favoured) sword and shield can pick up Mauler (even though he's not really into two-handed weaspons) and he's golden. A cleric who wants a (non-favoured) hammer and shield is out of luck because there isn't a one-handed Two-Hand hammer. If he's into two-handed weapons, he's got both sword and hammer covered. But if he's into fencing weapons, Duelist, while seemingly on the same order as Mauler, only for dueling instead of mauling, won't help at all. Unless he's into Aldori fencing weapons, where Aldori Duelist, a completely different thing from Duelist, has him covered again.
Feels like "can I use a better weapon than normal?" should have the same answer for all classes and all weapons in principle, only with a higher cost for a bigger benefit. Instead, the answer seems to be "yes, probably... you just need to sift through dedication feats, general feats, ancestry feats, and try and trace a path to what you want... odds are there is one, but maybe not".
There is a default answer... sort of.
Weapon Proficiency Feat 1
General
Source Core Rulebook pg. 269 1.1
You become trained in all simple weapons. If you were already trained in all simple weapons, you become trained in all martial weapons. If you were already trained in all martial weapons, you become trained in one advanced weapon of your choice.Special You can select this feat more than once. Each time you do, you become trained in additional weapons as appropriate, following the above progression.
I think this was meant to be the answer to your question. The problem is you never advance beyond Trained. (Ditto for the Armor Proficiency feat.)
There has been much clamor for that to change. I don't suppose you're in a home game? You could ask your GM to add text like "and whenever you reach a better proficiency in any weapon, you automatically reach it with the ones you got here" that you see in other places.
TBH I really don't like Mauler giving proficiency as its first feat - makes it pretty frustrating for a lot of builds that would want to use a big two-hander with power attack but already has proficiency in the weapon it wants to use. A TWF Barbarian can get double slice for one feat, but a greataxe ranger has to buy a completely dead feat before getting power attack? Makes no sense to me.I do not understand why you find it frustrating. If your hypothetical greataxe ranger wants power attack, he can get it with the same number of feats by taking Fighter Multiclass and Basic Maneuver (Power Attack). You don't need Mauler and have a better option (as it gives you a skill too).
BUT, a lot of other classes do NEED the 2h weapon proficiency provided by Mauler and being able to pick up full proficiency for one feat is very nice.
Frankly, while the Mauler can be used to good effect by a fighter, barbarian or ranger, I really see the archetype targeted at characters who do not have proficiency with 2h weapons. This lets you build a cleric that uses reach weapons, or a bard that uses a bladed scarf, or a Rogue with an Elven Curve Blade.
Because the Fighter multiclass has exactly the same problem of requiring a dead feat before getting the feat you actually want? That should have been pretty obvious. If Power Attack had been the dedication feat and the proficiency had been one of the attached feats then everyone would be happy; scaling proficiency doesn't matter at level two, so you can just use a general feat to get the weapon you want Trained and then retrain that out once you have real proficiency.
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Because the Fighter multiclass has exactly the same problem of requiring a dead feat before getting the feat you actually want? That should have been pretty obvious. If Power Attack had been the dedication feat and the proficiency had been one of the attached feats then everyone would be happy; scaling proficiency doesn't matter at level two, so you can just use a general feat to get the weapon you want Trained and then retrain that out once you have real proficiency.TBH I really don't like Mauler giving proficiency as its first feat - makes it pretty frustrating for a lot of builds that would want to use a big two-hander with power attack but already has proficiency in the weapon it wants to use. A TWF Barbarian can get double slice for one feat, but a greataxe ranger has to buy a completely dead feat before getting power attack? Makes no sense to me.I do not understand why you find it frustrating. If your hypothetical greataxe ranger wants power attack, he can get it with the same number of feats by taking Fighter Multiclass and Basic Maneuver (Power Attack). You don't need Mauler and have a better option (as it gives you a skill too).
BUT, a lot of other classes do NEED the 2h weapon proficiency provided by Mauler and being able to pick up full proficiency for one feat is very nice.
Frankly, while the Mauler can be used to good effect by a fighter, barbarian or ranger, I really see the archetype targeted at characters who do not have proficiency with 2h weapons. This lets you build a cleric that uses reach weapons, or a bard that uses a bladed scarf, or a Rogue with an Elven Curve Blade.
Same thing with Bastion. There are some great feats down the line but if I take the dedication with Champion it's a waste.
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Same thing with Bastion. There are some great feats down the line but if I take the dedication with Champion it's a waste.
I assume you mean Sentinel? Because Bastion Dedication gives you Reactive Shield which is a very good feat.
I think this was meant to be the answer to your question.
I think this was what I expected (and wanted) to be the answer.
There has been much clamor for that to change.
Ah, has there? I did a bit of searching before I asked, but didn't really find much. That's encouraging, at least to the extent that future options might cater to this idea, if it's a commonly perceived gap.
I don't suppose you're in a home game?
I am, but it's (to be) our first 2nd edition game, so we're all still at the stage of trying to understand what the game offers out of the box.
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I honestly can't see them changing the format
If they do allow the General feat weapon proficiency to improve, it's likely to be in the same format as we've seen with Ancestral weapon proficiencies: One feat to get the weapons, one to allow it to improve at the same rate as class weapon proficiency, and maybe one to grant specialisation effects
I don't really have much problem with this. I don't really want to be GMing, or playing on, a table full of twinks with flickmaces and bastard swords as far as the eye can see. At least by making it a task to get other weapons, Paizo have ensured that it's not all cookie cutter armaments
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I was among the ones making that clamor.
Basically, we saw those general feats as trap options, since they allow you to be as good with your weapon of choice as you are with the ones provided by your class... but only up to a certain level, where you have to switch back to a different weapon or eat an accuracy penalty. Which, in the context of a well designed game, looked like an awful hole to us.
The discussion eventually settled, after having restated opinions and counter-opinions a lot of times, in the hope that the (then) incoming archetypes would offer options for scaling proficiencies. And they did, but only partially - as was noted in this thread.
The general feats are still mostly a dead option, because trained proficiency is not a requirement to get the scaling one. I guess they can be used until you can retrain to get the archetype feats you need.
I'll say that the solution doesn't satisfy me that much.
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I don't really want to be GMing, or playing on, a table full of twinks with flickmaces and bastard swords as far as the eye can see.
Neither do I, but I feel a better way around that is not to have silly weapons like flickmaces.
At least by making it a task to get other weapons, Paizo have ensured that it's not all cookie cutter armaments
From previous experience, I expect the twinks will work out that one optimal (even if silly) route anyway, that the people who are being left behind are people who just kind of wanted their dwarf rogue to have a warhammer because wouldn't that be cool.
ancestral weapons:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=11
but both take 2 or 3 feats to leave you behind compared to the default, so don't really seem attractive.
You don't really need to take 3 feats for any of these weapons as far as I know because of the line "In addition, you gain access to all uncommon goblin weapons. For the purpose of determining your proficiency, martial goblin weapons are simple weapons and advanced goblin weapons are martial weapons."
So you only need to invest 1 or 2 ancestry feats for the most parts. I have no idea if the crit specialization is necessary, but for the most part you don't need the expertise feat except for specific circumstances. Only circumstance I see is if you want to use an advanced ancestry weapon but don't have martial proficiencies.
At quick look the only advanced ancestry weapons I see are Dwarven War Axe, Gnome Flickmace and Orc Necksplitter.
Goblin in more of an exception than the rule in that its weapons are martial and tagged [Goblin].
Look at Dwarven Weapon Familiarity. A dwarf cleric or rogue only ever gets trained in a battleaxe or a warhammer from it, because even though battleaxe and warhammer are typically dwarven, enough so to be listed in the Dwarven Weapon Familiarity feat, they're not [Dwarf] weapons, so they don't become simple.
Which is the kind of thing that's putting me off. I'd expect Goblin Weapon Familiarity and Dwarven Weapon Familiarity to give you the same kind of thing with different weapons: a list of typical weapons for the ancestry, you can now use them, enjoy.
Instead there's these tangles where advanced [Dwarf] weapons become martial, martial [Dwarf] weapons become simple (but don't exist), you get trained in dwarf weapons so you're as good with them as if they were simple, but they don't become [Dwarf] weapons so they don't become simple, so don't improve for the dwarf at the same time the weapons from the goblin feat list improve for the goblin...
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Because the Fighter multiclass has exactly the same problem of requiring a dead feat before getting the feat you actually want? That should have been pretty obvious. If Power Attack had been the dedication feat and the proficiency had been one of the attached feats then everyone would be happy; scaling proficiency doesn't matter at level two, so you can just use a general feat to get the weapon you want Trained and then retrain that out once you have real proficiency.TBH I really don't like Mauler giving proficiency as its first feat - makes it pretty frustrating for a lot of builds that would want to use a big two-hander with power attack but already has proficiency in the weapon it wants to use. A TWF Barbarian can get double slice for one feat, but a greataxe ranger has to buy a completely dead feat before getting power attack? Makes no sense to me.I do not understand why you find it frustrating. If your hypothetical greataxe ranger wants power attack, he can get it with the same number of feats by taking Fighter Multiclass and Basic Maneuver (Power Attack). You don't need Mauler and have a better option (as it gives you a skill too).
BUT, a lot of other classes do NEED the 2h weapon proficiency provided by Mauler and being able to pick up full proficiency for one feat is very nice.
Frankly, while the Mauler can be used to good effect by a fighter, barbarian or ranger, I really see the archetype targeted at characters who do not have proficiency with 2h weapons. This lets you build a cleric that uses reach weapons, or a bard that uses a bladed scarf, or a Rogue with an Elven Curve Blade.
All fine and dandy for you, but as I point out, the Mauler archetype is awesome for many other characters. Your Ranger character may already have access to 2h weapons, but many other characters (even some Martials) don't. Those characters find the Mauler archetype to be a godsend. If it didn't give 2h weapon proficiency, the archetype would only be useful to a small number of classes.
And its NOT a dead feat. In real life, gaining access to something is considered quite valuable, and I don't see how that is any different in a roleplaying game.
Yeah, what we really need is an Archetype for one-handed weapons like Mauler is for two-handed. That'd work well and fix the remaining hole in weapon options IMO.Duelist covers a bit of this.As Blave notes, not for Proficiencies it doesn't. And Proficiencies are really the issue that still needs an Archetype to fill the gap.
Viking does a little bit of this, it's true, but only in a very roundabout way, and at too high a cost if this is all you're going for.
Hence the 'bit.' You don't get new weapons, but you do get some cool things to do with the one-handed weapons that you already have.Oh, it's definitely a similar thematic space, but it doesn't really solve the mechanical issue in question.
I agree with you that we need a one-handed fighting archetype that grants some scaling weapon proficiencies. When I posted earlier, I was thinking about how Duelist could enhance the 'Staff Magus' build that I mentioned earlier. Using a magical staff both offensively and defensively is one of things I liked most about my old Staff Magus.
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And its NOT a dead feat. In real life, gaining access to something is considered quite valuable, and I don't see how that is any different in a roleplaying game.
A feat that does absolutely nothing except let you take a better feat later on is literally the definition of a feat tax. People don't like those, because it feels bad to take a feat that doesn't do anything for you.
Paizo dropped the ball by not giving these dedications alternative benefits.
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Same thing with Bastion. There are some great feats down the line but if I take the dedication with Champion it's a waste.I assume you mean Sentinel? Because Bastion Dedication gives you Reactive Shield which is a very good feat.
Yeah I edited the post straight away, but apparently that did not go through. Egg on my face!
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Yeah I edited the post straight away, but apparently that did not go through. Egg on my face!Same thing with Bastion. There are some great feats down the line but if I take the dedication with Champion it's a waste.I assume you mean Sentinel? Because Bastion Dedication gives you Reactive Shield which is a very good feat.
I just wanted to add that in a way it is a feat tax but that is true for a lot of the dedications. Normally I dont pick a dedication for the initial effect and just want the later stuff.
Yeah level 2 kind of feels bad to take a dedication for quite a few. My guess was they just didn't want people who took only class feats to feel weaker. The new archetypes do alleviate this a bit though.
Personally I love dedications but there are lots of random feat taxes you have to take that feel bad. For example if you want a level 6+ feat from a class first you have to spend 2 feats on a dedication and a level 1/2 feat.
All fine and dandy for you, but as I point out, the Mauler archetype is awesome for many other characters. Your Ranger character may already have access to 2h weapons, but many other characters (even some Martials) don't. Those characters find the Mauler archetype to be a godsend. If it didn't give 2h weapon proficiency, the archetype would only be useful to a small number of classes.
And its NOT a dead feat. In real life, gaining access to something is considered quite valuable, and I don't see how that is any different in a roleplaying game.
Would be real interested to know your opinion on PF1 Combat Expertise.