Kinetic Blade and iterative attacks

[Bondranx]

My DM and I are at loggerheads over this Infusion, he insists that as per its wording

You form a weapon using your kinetic abilities. You create a non-reach, light or one-handed weapon in your hand formed of pure energy or elemental matter. (If you're a telekineticist, you instead transfer the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand.) The kinetic blade's shape is purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the damage dice, critical threat range, or critical multiplier of the kinetic blade, nor does it grant the kinetic blade any weapon special features. The object held by a telekineticist for this form infusion doesn't prevent her from using gather power.

You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade. Since it's part of another action (and isn't an action itself), using this wild talent doesn't provoke any additional attacks of opportunity. The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers to your kinetic blast's damage as normal, but not your Strength modifier). The blade disappears at the end of your turn. The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast deals, and it interacts with Armor Class and spell resistance as normal for a blast of its type. Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or another unusual object, the attack doesn't use any of the magic weapon's bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticist's blast damage. The kinetic blade doesn't add the damage bonus from elemental overflow.

He insists that It does not work with an iterative attack due to “once as part of and action” causing it to only work on one attack, no matter how many you can make. I need some kind of definitive answer to show him on this issue.

[Diego Rossi]

Quote:

You can use this form infusion once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action in order to make melee attacks with your kinetic blade. Since it’s part of another action (and isn’t an action itself), using this wild talent doesn’t provoke any additional attacks of opportunity.

It says attacks, plural.

As I read it, you activate it once in the turn, and then it lasts until the end of that turn, allowing you to make as many melee attacks as you can during the turn.
The "once" part, I suppose, is there to prevent the kineticist from changing the associate blast if he sees that the damage type is ineffective against that enemy and to prevent him from benefitting multiple times from abilities that work on activating an infusion.

I have never played or GMed a kineticist, so other people can know better.

[Ryan Freire]

Kinetic Blade wrote:

The blade disappears at the end of your turn

This would be the relevant text. The blade is in existence until the end of turn, not end of a single attack.

[Derklord]

Bondranx wrote:

He insists that It does not work with an iterative attack due to “once as part of and action” causing it to only work on one attack, no matter how many you can make.

It doesn't say you can attack with it once, it says you can "use" it "once as part of an attack action, a charge action, or a full-attack action". Use means activate. The effect has a stated duration, "The blade disappears at the end of your turn."

If it were only one attack ever, period, it makes absolutely not the slightest sense to write "The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit".

[Ryan Freire]

Derklord wrote:

If it were only one attack ever, period, it makes absolutely not the slightest sense to write "The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage on each hit".

It would also not make sense to exist as a 5' step and normal blast has the same ultimate effect

[Bondranx]

I’ve made these arguments and more in favour of my ruling, but he says “it’s too much damage to be allowed to work that way, no other class at 9th level can make iterative attacks at 10d6 damage in 1 round.” (Was using a composite blast)

[Belafon]

Bondranx wrote:

I’ve made these arguments and more in favour of my ruling, but he says “it’s too much damage to be allowed to work that way, no other class at 9th level can make iterative attacks at 10d6 damage in 1 round.” (Was using a composite blast)

Let's see... you are getting two attacks (the reason the ability says "you can use this form infusion once" is specifically to prevent two-weapon fighting). Three if someone hasted you. And you are taking two burn every time you do this.

That's well in scale with the kineticist design of "able to do a bunch of damage a few times a day."

[Ryan Freire]

Bondranx wrote:

I’ve made these arguments and more in favour of my ruling, but he says “it’s too much damage to be allowed to work that way, no other class at 9th level can make iterative attacks at 10d6 damage in 1 round.” (Was using a composite blast)

No, any half decent 2handed martial build should be doing WAY more than avg 30 damage per hit by level 9

[Belafon]

Oh, and a TWF alchemist with fast bombs can throw 4 bombs at 9th level doing 5d6+Int damage each. He doesn't have to start the round next to an enemy like the kineticist does.

Limited number of times per day, but that's true of the kineticist too, thanks to Burn.

[Belafon]

Ryan Freire wrote:

Bondranx wrote:

I’ve made these arguments and more in favour of my ruling, but he says “it’s too much damage to be allowed to work that way, no other class at 9th level can make iterative attacks at 10d6 damage in 1 round.” (Was using a composite blast)

No, any half decent 2handed martial build should be doing WAY more than avg 30 damage per hit by level 9

9th level barbarian with +3 weapon, 7 STR mod (before rage), and a greatsword who is power attacking:

melee: +3 greatsword +18/+13 (2d6+25/19-20)

Yeah, that's a pretty sub-optimal barbarian but she's still doing over 30 damage a hit. Granted, it sounds like your kineticist is targeting touch instead of normal AC but again: two burn.

[Bondranx]

Thanks, I needed some examples to show of ways other classes can get these numbers in but I’m not used to high output classes so I don’t do get the numbers down well for some of them.

[JiCi]

There's also the fact that energy Blades can often be resisted by energy resistance, and that physical Blades don't benefit from Strength scores... oddly enough.

Also, a Kineticist's composite Blade costs at least 1 Burn point, so it will burn itself out the more rounds it uses it, relying more on simple Blades, which can cost 0 point at mid-level.

Yes, an Elemental Annihilator can whip out an Omnicide Blade that deals a collective 50d6+50 points of damage per attack, but... that's almost a one-trick pony or a desperation move.

Finally, we're saying "blade", but the "Whip" is more powerful thanks to its Reach.

[Melkiador]

There's a fair chance you could draw a quote from Mark Seifter, the main designer of the class. If that doesn't sway your GM, then probably nothing will.

Personally, I think it's already super clear that you can get iteratives. You might could also look to how it works in the Kingmaker videogame for evidence, but that kind of info isn't always readily available.

[PCScipio]

If he's trying to argue that Kinetic Blade wouldn't be affected by Haste, that's directly contradicted by an official FAQ:

Paizo FAQ wrote:

Haste: Haste says a hasted creature can make an additional attack during a full attack with a natural or manufactured weapon, but what about other sorts of attacks like unarmed strikes?

Unarmed strikes and other attacks that work via full attacks (such as mystic bolts, kinetic blade, and flame blade) all allow an extra attack with haste. However, single attacks such as incorporeal touch attacks or melee touch spells delivered round by round after holding the charge do not.

Source Link

That doesn't explicitly address the question of iteratives, but it does provide evidence that Kinetic Blade can make more than one attack per round.

[Bondranx]

Melkiador wrote:

There's a fair chance you could draw a quote from Mark Seifter, the main designer of the class. If that doesn't sway your GM, then probably nothing will.

Personally, I think it's already super clear that you can get iteratives. You might could also look to how it works in the Kingmaker videogame for evidence, but that kind of info isn't always readily available.

I’ve been trying really hard to find a post where he explicitly states this but haven’t had a lot of luck, lots of places where he implies it, but apparently that’s not good enough to counter “I don’t like it so it doesn’t work”

[Ryan Freire]

Then i'd tell him you want to retire the character and make one that actually functions.

[Bondranx]

Found an explicit statement by Mark, I’ll be showing it to my DM next Thursday, thanks guys

[Diego Rossi]

Bondranx wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

There's a fair chance you could draw a quote from Mark Seifter, the main designer of the class. If that doesn't sway your GM, then probably nothing will.

Personally, I think it's already super clear that you can get iteratives. You might could also look to how it works in the Kingmaker videogame for evidence, but that kind of info isn't always readily available.

I’ve been trying really hard to find a post where he explicitly states this but haven’t had a lot of luck, lots of places where he implies it, but apparently that’s not good enough to counter “I don’t like it so it doesn’t work”

Nothing beats that. If I really don't like something, I houserule it out at my table, and almost any the GM I know does it. But generally, we acknowledge that it is an houserule.

The damage you deal is decent, especially if you use energy blasts and target touch AC, but an alchemist does it better, a melee combatant does as much damage as you, hit better, and can do it all day, an archer does that damage at range. I don't see the problem.

[Ryan Freire]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Bondranx wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

There's a fair chance you could draw a quote from Mark Seifter, the main designer of the class. If that doesn't sway your GM, then probably nothing will.

Personally, I think it's already super clear that you can get iteratives. You might could also look to how it works in the Kingmaker videogame for evidence, but that kind of info isn't always readily available.

I’ve been trying really hard to find a post where he explicitly states this but haven’t had a lot of luck, lots of places where he implies it, but apparently that’s not good enough to counter “I don’t like it so it doesn’t work”

Nothing beats that. If I really don't like something, I houserule it out at my table, and almost any the GM I know does it. But generally, we acknowledge that it is an houserule.

The damage you deal is detcent, especially if you use energy blasts and target touch AC, but an alchemist do it better, a melee combatant do as much, hit better and can do it all day, a archer do that damage at range. I don't see the problem.

hah, yeah we didn't even touch archer builds did we?

[TxSam88]

an iterative attack is a full round action, it says the kinetic attack can be sued with full round actions. you don't need anything else.

Any Rogue can come close to dealing 10d6 on iterative attacks, and have more than 2 of them if you go TWF.

[SheepishEidolon]

Surprising damage spikes tend to irk many GMs, since they perceive it as a loss of control. It becomes acceptable for most once they know it might happen and when they know it comes at a price. Might be a good topic for session 0.

Rogue's sneak attack is another example (as TxSam88 pointed out) - I can only guess how many novice GMs considered rogues the ultimate killers after one or two TWF sneak attacks. The same can happen if you wield a scythe as a Str based PC and the GM forgets about it (or never noticed in the first place) - a quadruple crit out of the blue will be noticed.

[avr]

On the burn cost thing though it's possible for infusion specialization to negate that. It is actually possible for a kineticist to rack up better than average DPR. Providing they don't run into enemies with SR, ER or high touch AC (energy), or just high AC (physical blast) anyway.

[Belafon]

avr wrote:

On the burn cost thing though it's possible for infusion specialization to negate that.

Infusion specialization can negate the burn cost of the kinetic blade but not of the composite blast. Even once you get composite specialization at 15th level, you're still going to be taking at least one burn if you are making a full-attack. (Though it can come from your buffer.)

The damage drops substantially (about 1/2) if you're not using composite blasts.

[Melkiador]

Yeah, and it's somewhat assumed that a lot of your daily burn will be used up at the beginning of the day to fuel your defenses and maximize your elemental overflow. So, your kineticist won't be able to fire off those composite blasts very often in a day.