Why the separate hit point pool is important

[HumbleGamer]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Welcome to checks and balances. You want a decent martial and decent spellcaster to exist at the same time? You're gonna pay for it twice as much.

I really think everything comes down to this ( as well for the magus class ).

[Megistone]

graystone wrote:

Megistone wrote:

Are you saying that with a separate HP pool, the Summoner can just resummon their dead eidolon with three actions, and it's all good?

In PF1 they would have to wait for the next day; being able to do that without a similar timeout would be brokenly good.

The way it is now, slap a heal on the summoner and they can manifest it in 3 actions. So, 4 actions? Why would you need 1/2 a day making hp 2 pools? You'd still have to heal up the eidolon and it starts up wounded. Doesn't seem any more broken that healing up someone that was downed. Why would it need to be much different that an animal companion?

Because if there's no risk for the character, the eidolon becomes a completely disposable bag of HP that you can blow up and resummon at will.

A dead animal companion has to be replaced spending a week of downtime. An unconscious one only needs healing, of course, so you could treat an eidolon the same way: no disappearing at 0 HP, it just goes down like a PC would. But instantly resummoning a dead one is ridiculous.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

How would it compare to an eidolon designed like a animal companion? With the summoner having the 8 or 10 hit point pool and the summoner having the 6 hit point pool.

A 6 HP/level eidolon would be squishy in combat; conversely, how would you justify giving a Summoner the same durability of a martial character?

Anyway, if the Summoner somehow end up with 8/level and the eidolon with 6/level, you would have the same situation you have with a Druid with the exception that a Summoner surviving their eidolon will probably contribute less than a Druid surviving their animal, since the eidolon is stronger and is surely eating a greater part of the class' power budget.

[graystone]

Megistone wrote:

Because if there's no risk for the character, the eidolon becomes a completely disposable bag of HP that you can blow up and resummon at will.

And how is this different from an animal companion again?

Megistone wrote:

A dead animal companion has to be replaced spending a week of downtime.

I was speaking about downed vs dead really as a truly dead eidolon seems unlikely outside of something like power word kill. If it dies, sure. How often does that happen? I say the same thing happens if an eidolon is killed too. If an eidolon is dying, it'd be smart to un-manifest them before they die until you can heal them.

[RexAliquid]

graystone wrote:

If an eidolon is dying, it'd be smart to un-manifest them before they die until you can heal them.

Or for the same number of actions at the same damage threshold, you could recall the eidolon to your side. Out of relative danger, ready to be healed and get back into the fight.

[graystone]

RexAliquid wrote:

graystone wrote:

If an eidolon is dying, it'd be smart to un-manifest them before they die until you can heal them.

Or for the same number of actions at the same damage threshold, you could recall the eidolon to your side. Out of relative danger, ready to be healed and get back into the fight.

If you can heal it, sure but I've had people say the best strategy is for the summoner to be 2 rooms away hiding until the fight is over. But if you can heal it [or have a cleric on retainer], it makes it even LESS likely you'd see a dead eidolon which was my point.

[Deriven Firelion]

Megistone wrote:

graystone wrote:

Megistone wrote:

Are you saying that with a separate HP pool, the Summoner can just resummon their dead eidolon with three actions, and it's all good?

In PF1 they would have to wait for the next day; being able to do that without a similar timeout would be brokenly good.

The way it is now, slap a heal on the summoner and they can manifest it in 3 actions. So, 4 actions? Why would you need 1/2 a day making hp 2 pools? You'd still have to heal up the eidolon and it starts up wounded. Doesn't seem any more broken that healing up someone that was downed. Why would it need to be much different that an animal companion?

Because if there's no risk for the character, the eidolon becomes a completely disposable bag of HP that you can blow up and resummon at will.

A dead animal companion has to be replaced spending a week of downtime. An unconscious one only needs healing, of course, so you could treat an eidolon the same way: no disappearing at 0 HP, it just goes down like a PC would. But instantly resummoning a dead one is ridiculous.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

How would it compare to an eidolon designed like a animal companion? With the summoner having the 8 or 10 hit point pool and the summoner having the 6 hit point pool.

A 6 HP/level eidolon would be squishy in combat; conversely, how would you justify giving a Summoner the same durability of a martial character?

Anyway, if the Summoner somehow end up with 8/level and the eidolon with 6/level, you would have the same situation you have with a Druid with the exception that a Summoner surviving their eidolon will probably contribute less than a Druid surviving their animal, since the eidolon is stronger and is surely eating a greater part of the class' power budget.

Sorry, I meant the eidolon 8 to 10 hit point pool and the summoner 6 hit point pool.

[Pronate11]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Megistone wrote:

graystone wrote:

Megistone wrote:

Are you saying that with a separate HP pool, the Summoner can just resummon their dead eidolon with three actions, and it's all good?

In PF1 they would have to wait for the next day; being able to do that without a similar timeout would be brokenly good.

The way it is now, slap a heal on the summoner and they can manifest it in 3 actions. So, 4 actions? Why would you need 1/2 a day making hp 2 pools? You'd still have to heal up the eidolon and it starts up wounded. Doesn't seem any more broken that healing up someone that was downed. Why would it need to be much different that an animal companion?

Because if there's no risk for the character, the eidolon becomes a completely disposable bag of HP that you can blow up and resummon at will.

A dead animal companion has to be replaced spending a week of downtime. An unconscious one only needs healing, of course, so you could treat an eidolon the same way: no disappearing at 0 HP, it just goes down like a PC would. But instantly resummoning a dead one is ridiculous.

Deriven Firelion wrote:

How would it compare to an eidolon designed like a animal companion? With the summoner having the 8 or 10 hit point pool and the summoner having the 6 hit point pool.

A 6 HP/level eidolon would be squishy in combat; conversely, how would you justify giving a Summoner the same durability of a martial character?

Anyway, if the Summoner somehow end up with 8/level and the eidolon with 6/level, you would have the same situation you have with a Druid with the exception that a Summoner surviving their eidolon will probably contribute less than a Druid surviving their animal, since the eidolon is stronger and is surely eating a greater part of the class' power budget.

Sorry, I meant the eidolon 8 to 10 hit point pool and the summoner 6 hit point pool.

Then.... it will work like in the example he first gave. Did we read the same post, because that's literally what he was talking about. (other than I guess he only said 8 hp, not 8 or 10)

[Paul Watson]

Suggestion to resolve the problem of the eidolon dropping and the summoner going with them.

Reactive Dismissal
Reaction
When the eidolon is successfully attacked or targetted by a spell, the Summoner may unmanifest the eidolon. The eidolon is not affected by the triggering action.

This should probably be a low level feat as it turns a 3 action activity to unmanifest, but only under limited circumstances. However, those are the occasions when you’ll really want to use it, so it probably shouldn’t be automatically part of the Summoner’s chasis. Above level 4 this would be weak, IMO.

A higher level feat could be
Reactive Transposition
Reaction
When the eidolon is successfully attacked or targetted by a spell, the Summoner may teleport the Eidolon to an empty square within 20 ft. The eidolon is not affected by the triggering action.

Which is more powerful as it it keeps the eidolon around rather than needing another 3 action activity to remanifest them.

[KrispyXIV]

Paul Watson wrote:

Suggestion to resolve the problem of the eidolon dropping and the summoner going with them.

Reactive Dismissal
Reaction
When the eidolon is successfully attacked or targetted by a spell, the Summoner may unmanifest the eidolon. The eidolon is not affected by the triggering action.

Negating an entire attack, even at the cost of 3 actions to remain remanifest, is an extremely powerful reaction... especially if you get to know it was a success or critical success beforehand.

I prefer a version of this that either -

-must be declared before the incoming attack is rolled or save is made.

-provides scaling resistance for the summoner to the incoming damage.

I dont hate the concept, but being able to poof your eidolon to completely avoid a downing crit is probably a bit over the top.

[Martialmasters]

I know people are pretty partisan when it comes to this subject.

But I had a thought.

If you seperate the 2's hp. One argument I see a lot is about the eidolon going poof whenever summoner goes down.

Perfect chance to give a class feature based off your charisma.

The eidolon can persist for a number of rounds equal to your Cha mod.

That way if your summoner goes unconcious in combat you still have a character to pilot for a bit and it's power is low enough ooc that if your summoner would go unconscious then, the class feature wouldn't do a whole lot to save you.

[Paul Watson]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Paul Watson wrote:

Suggestion to resolve the problem of the eidolon dropping and the summoner going with them.

Reactive Dismissal
Reaction
When the eidolon is successfully attacked or targetted by a spell, the Summoner may unmanifest the eidolon. The eidolon is not affected by the triggering action.

Negating an entire attack, even at the cost of 3 actions to remain remanifest, is an extremely powerful reaction... especially if you get to know it was a success or critical success beforehand.

I prefer a version of this that either -

-must be declared before the incoming attack is rolled or save is made.

-provides scaling resistance for the summoner to the incoming damage.

I dont hate the concept, but being able to poof your eidolon to completely avoid a downing crit is probably a bit over the top.

Changing the trigger to be when targetted by an attack or spell, so you have to decide before the die is rolled wouldn’t be a problem for me, You’d only use it when pretty much any hit would drop you anyway.

[KrispyXIV]

Paul Watson wrote:

Changing the trigger to be when targetted by an attack or spell, so you have to decide before the die is rolled wouldn’t be a problem for me, You’d only use it when pretty much any hit would drop you anyway.

Its still arguably too strong at that point, when you think about it. I'd absolutely not limit my use of such an ability to just when at low health.

Think of it like this - against a "Boss monster" in a single enemy encounter, if you can make the effects of one of his attacks disappear and then resummon your Eidolon on your turn, that's AT LEAST as good as being able to impose Slowed/Stunned 1 on that boss with no attack roll and no save.

That's stellar.

Its even BETTER if the attack you're eating is their best attack after which they have MAP on the follow-ups.

Slowed 1 with no Save is totally worth a reaction and three actions against a level +2 or +3 foe, and being able to "reset" it every other round would be silly.

Most likely, it works once and now your Eidolon is not going to get targeted anymore, which is a fantastic level of damage prevention.

[Paul Watson]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Paul Watson wrote:

Changing the trigger to be when targetted by an attack or spell, so you have to decide before the die is rolled wouldn’t be a problem for me, You’d only use it when pretty much any hit would drop you anyway.

Its still arguably too strong at that point, when you think about it. I'd absolutely not limit my use of such an ability to just when at low health.

Think of it like this - against a "Boss monster" in a single enemy encounter, if you can make the effects of one of his attacks disappear and then resummon your Eidolon on your turn, that's AT LEAST as good as being able to impose Slowed/Stunned 1 on that boss with no attack roll and no save.

That's stellar.

Its even BETTER if the attack you're eating is their best attack after which they have MAP on the follow-ups.

Slowed 1 with no Save is totally worth a reaction and three actions against a level +2 or +3 foe, and being able to "reset" it every other round would be silly.

Most likely, it works once and now your Eidolon is not going to get targeted anymore, which is a fantastic level of damage prevention.

Ok. Taking those points on board

Reactive Dismissal
Reaction
When the eidolon is successfully attacked or targetted by a spell that would reduce the summoner’s hp to 0 or below the Summoner may unmanifest the eidolon instead. The eidolon and summoner are not affected by the triggering action, but the summoner increases their wounded value by 1. If the summoner’s wounded condition equals the number of the dying condition at which they would die, they immediately die.

That imposes a comparable cost to dropping another martial if the party has good healers. It’s not a good idea to repeatedly send a weakened eidolon into the fight as you can quickly stack up wounded conditions to death, but its not a long term penalty as the wounded condition can be removed with standard medicine checks.

[KrispyXIV]

Paul Watson wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Paul Watson wrote:

Changing the trigger to be when targetted by an attack or spell, so you have to decide before the die is rolled wouldn’t be a problem for me, You’d only use it when pretty much any hit would drop you anyway.

Its still arguably too strong at that point, when you think about it. I'd absolutely not limit my use of such an ability to just when at low health.

Think of it like this - against a "Boss monster" in a single enemy encounter, if you can make the effects of one of his attacks disappear and then resummon your Eidolon on your turn, that's AT LEAST as good as being able to impose Slowed/Stunned 1 on that boss with no attack roll and no save.

That's stellar.

Its even BETTER if the attack you're eating is their best attack after which they have MAP on the follow-ups.

Slowed 1 with no Save is totally worth a reaction and three actions against a level +2 or +3 foe, and being able to "reset" it every other round would be silly.

Most likely, it works once and now your Eidolon is not going to get targeted anymore, which is a fantastic level of damage prevention.

Ok. Taking those points on board

Reactive Dismissal
Reaction
When the eidolon is successfully attacked or targetted by a spell that would reduce the summoner’s hp to 0 or below the Summoner may unmanifest the eidolon instead. The eidolon and summoner are not affected by the triggering action, but the summoner increases their wounded value by 1. If the summoner’s wounded condition equals the number of the dying condition at which they would die, they immediately die.

That imposes a comparable cost to dropping another martial if the party has good healers. It’s not a good idea to repeatedly send a weakened eidolon into the fight as you can quickly stack up wounded conditions to death, but its not a long term penalty as the wounded condition can be removed with standard medicine checks.

Make it "Increase the Summoners wounded value by 1, or 2 on a critical hit." And you've made it a real solid risk to use and I think you're cooking with gas.

The issue I see with locking it at Wounded 1 is that you're probably not increasing the number of times the Summoner has to be dropped to die, in many cases in my experience.

Generally, I've seen players drop to crits (and poison) more than anything because the sudden spike in damage is what makes it hard to manage that damage.

[GM OfAnything]

A crit at wounded 1 takes you to one bad roll from dying.

Reactive Dismissal is a lot like the Ferocity monster ability, which is cool. I don't think dismissal should completely negate an attack or ability, and instead peg your hp at 1.

Alternatively, let it trigger on any damage to gain resistance 2+level. If you would be reduced to 0hp, you are instead wounded 1 and 1 hp.

[Temperans]

Or you know have it so you can't resummon the Eidolon for 1 minute or 10 minutes after its dismissed or drops to 0. That way you cant spam it and it you wont have to wait for a full day to see it again.

Which might even mean the eidolon can get more customization.

[KrispyXIV]

Temperans wrote:

Or you know have it so you can't resummon the Eidolon for 1 minute or 10 minutes after its dismissed or drops to 0. That way you cant spam it and it you wont have to wait for a full day to see it again.

Which might even mean the eidolon can get more customization.

It would also mean that the summoner is more punished than any other class by being reduced to zero hitpoints, or even if the eidolon is reduced to 0 with its own hp.

No thanks.

[Temperans]

Well eidolon and summoner should have seperate HP pools. So your thing about the summoner being at 0 is only relevant with the weird shared HP. Even then its no different than a barbarian dropping to 0 HP and being unable to rage for 1 minute.

[graystone]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Or you know have it so you can't resummon the Eidolon for 1 minute or 10 minutes after its dismissed or drops to 0. That way you cant spam it and it you wont have to wait for a full day to see it again.

Which might even mean the eidolon can get more customization.

It would also mean that the summoner is more punished than any other class by being reduced to zero hitpoints, or even if the eidolon is reduced to 0 with its own hp.

No thanks.

It seems quite generous when compared to how long it take to get back an animal companion not "more punishing".

"If your companion dies, you can spend a week of downtime to replace it at no cost."

[KrispyXIV]

graystone wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Or you know have it so you can't resummon the Eidolon for 1 minute or 10 minutes after its dismissed or drops to 0. That way you cant spam it and it you wont have to wait for a full day to see it again.

Which might even mean the eidolon can get more customization.

It would also mean that the summoner is more punished than any other class by being reduced to zero hitpoints, or even if the eidolon is reduced to 0 with its own hp.

No thanks.

It seems quite generous when compared to how long it take to get back an animal companion not "more punishing".

"If your companion dies, you can spend a week of downtime to replace it at no cost."

And it comes back to full functionality instantly when it goes from 0 hp to 1, with the wounded condition, like any other creature.

Putting a 1 minute cool down (or any number) on an Eidolon as soon as it hits 0 hp or demanifests is unnecessarily crippling.

[Squeakmaan]

Temperans wrote:

Well eidolon and summoner should have seperate HP pools. So your thing about the summoner being at 0 is only relevant with the weird shared HP. Even then its no different than a barbarian dropping to 0 HP and being unable to rage for 1 minute.

Nah, they should be sharing a HP pool.

[Temperans]

Squeakmaan wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Well eidolon and summoner should have seperate HP pools. So your thing about the summoner being at 0 is only relevant with the weird shared HP. Even then its no different than a barbarian dropping to 0 HP and being unable to rage for 1 minute.

Nah, they should be sharing a HP pool.

Agree to disagree at this point we wo t change each other's mind.

[Temperans]

KrispyXIV wrote:

graystone wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Or you know have it so you can't resummon the Eidolon for 1 minute or 10 minutes after its dismissed or drops to 0. That way you cant spam it and it you wont have to wait for a full day to see it again.

Which might even mean the eidolon can get more customization.

It would also mean that the summoner is more punished than any other class by being reduced to zero hitpoints, or even if the eidolon is reduced to 0 with its own hp.

No thanks.

It seems quite generous when compared to how long it take to get back an animal companion not "more punishing".

"If your companion dies, you can spend a week of downtime to replace it at no cost."

And it comes back to full functionality instantly when it goes from 0 hp to 1, with the wounded condition, like any other creature.

Putting a 1 minute cool down (or any number) on an Eidolon as soon as it hits 0 hp or demanifests is unnecessarily crippling.

Its crippling to you because you have deemed it that Summoners should constantly share HP, actions, and conditions that affect actions. Instead of treating them as separate creatures with different abilities.

But waiting 1-10 minute to resummon the eidolon at some HP value is considerably more generous than PF1 already. I honestly would not mind if the Eidolon had a 24 hour cooldown after its killed. With resummoning it before that costing a focus point for a few minutes.

[GayBirdGM]

Temperans wrote:

Its crippling to you because you have deemed it that Summoners should constantly share HP, actions, and conditions that affect actions. Instead of treating them as separate creatures with different abilities.

But waiting 1-10 minute to resummon the eidolon at some HP value is considerably more generous than PF1 already. I honestly would not mind if the Eidolon had a 24 hour cooldown after its killed. With resummoning it before that costing a focus point for a few minutes.

I haven't the time to playtest so I just read the forums, so forgive me if I'm wrong on this.

But wouldn't giving the Eidolon a next-day cooldown if it dies be rather crippling unless you buff the summoner itself to be a fully functioning class without the eidolon? Which would then mean you have a full caster class with a nice beefy pet, or you nerf the pet so much you might as well play a beast master druid or something?

Otherwise, the eidolon falls early in the day to a few unlucky crits, and you're essentially half a class or forcing the entire party to take a day off to get your pet back because you can't function as well without it.

I would like to reiterate: I don't have a horse in this race, cannot playtest the material in my schedule, and get my information from these forums for now so I may be missing something. Sorry.

[Temperans]

GayBirdGM wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Its crippling to you because you have deemed it that Summoners should constantly share HP, actions, and conditions that affect actions. Instead of treating them as separate creatures with different abilities.

But waiting 1-10 minute to resummon the eidolon at some HP value is considerably more generous than PF1 already. I honestly would not mind if the Eidolon had a 24 hour cooldown after its killed. With resummoning it before that costing a focus point for a few minutes.

I haven't the time to playtest so I just read the forums, so forgive me if I'm wrong on this.

But wouldn't giving the Eidolon a next-day cooldown if it dies be rather crippling unless you buff the summoner itself to be a fully functioning class without the eidolon? Which would then mean you have a full caster class with a nice beefy pet, or you nerf the pet so much you might as well play a beast master druid or something?

Otherwise, the eidolon falls early in the day to a few unlucky crits, and you're essentially half a class or forcing the entire party to take a day off to get your pet back because you can't function as well without it.

I would like to reiterate: I don't have a horse in this race, cannot playtest the material in my schedule, and get my information from these forums for now so I may be missing something. Sorry.

Welp phone died and ate my long response.

In short. I think that the balance point for the Eidolon and Summoner is wrong.

Right now the Eidolon is being treated as the PC while the Summoner is just a sidekick who can barely summon. Much less be good at summoning.

You can see it by the fact the Eidolon is getting no special attacks. Its evolutions are feats. And some evolutions like flight are being pushed to level 16. Meanwhile, the summoner has lost most of their casting, doesnt have good attack or defenses, lacks the action or HP to be effective, and can't actually summon (much less do it well).

This combination has caused the issue where the Summoner is unable to help the party if the eidolons dies. While also costing the party resourses and/or time to keep the Summoner alive.

One way to solve it (which is also my prefered way). Is to trully make the Eidolon into its own creature with its own advancement track independent of the Summoner (preferably slots or points). Such that the Summoner is able to use their feats for adding support or unlocking more evolutions. This also removes the bottleneck from the Summoner giving them more flexibility over ehat they can do even if the Eidolon does get killed.

As it currently stands the class even when using Boost Eidolon (which should disappear) barely manages to reach a monk without feats. While having no ability interesting enought to justify its existence. So I dont mind if the Summoner gets more power to compensate for a penalty such a cooldown.

[Paul Watson]

And that’s effectively 2 PCs so how are you balancing them against a regular PC who only has one set of advancements to spend rather than 2?

[Darksol the Painbringer]

KrispyXIV wrote:

graystone wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Or you know have it so you can't resummon the Eidolon for 1 minute or 10 minutes after its dismissed or drops to 0. That way you cant spam it and it you wont have to wait for a full day to see it again.

Which might even mean the eidolon can get more customization.

It would also mean that the summoner is more punished than any other class by being reduced to zero hitpoints, or even if the eidolon is reduced to 0 with its own hp.

No thanks.

It seems quite generous when compared to how long it take to get back an animal companion not "more punishing".

"If your companion dies, you can spend a week of downtime to replace it at no cost."

And it comes back to full functionality instantly when it goes from 0 hp to 1, with the wounded condition, like any other creature.

Putting a 1 minute cool down (or any number) on an Eidolon as soon as it hits 0 hp or demanifests is unnecessarily crippling.

Good thing the Eidolon isn't an Animal Companion, Familiar, or any other type of creature where the rules of equality apply. You want the goods and versatility? You pay for it.

But really, the cooldown isn't that bad. Shield Cantrip has a 10 minute cooldown, but nobody complains about it, and it makes the difference between living or dying characters all the time, just like normal shields do. 1 minute by comparison isn't bad at all, especially if it's a do or die situation for your PC.

[Temperans]

Paul Watson wrote:

And that’s effectively 2 PCs so how are you balancing them against a regular PC who only has one set of advancements to spend rather than 2?

The Eidolon is not a PC, it supposed to be a strong summoned creature. Its needs to be balanced according to fit within the context of the Summoner class and its Aesthetics.

Also have you looked at casters? They are getting 2 sets of advancements: Feats and Spells.

The Summoner is supposed to be a caster so it would normally get an advancement travk for spells. But as a reduced caster that number gets smaller than a full caster by some value. The missing advancement that is not going towards stats, spells, or feats is what gets used by the Eidolon and Summon Monster pool.

If the Eidolon would have evolution points/slots and a lower base value. Then Paizo would also have more control over what the eidolon can do. Without limiting options for the Summoner or Eidolon.

[Rysky]

Temperans wrote:

If the Eidolon would have evolution points/slots and a lower base value. Then Paizo would also have more control over what the eidolon can do. Without limiting options for the Summoner or Eidolon.

Not really.

[Martialmasters]

KrispyXIV wrote:

graystone wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Or you know have it so you can't resummon the Eidolon for 1 minute or 10 minutes after its dismissed or drops to 0. That way you cant spam it and it you wont have to wait for a full day to see it again.

Which might even mean the eidolon can get more customization.

It would also mean that the summoner is more punished than any other class by being reduced to zero hitpoints, or even if the eidolon is reduced to 0 with its own hp.

No thanks.

It seems quite generous when compared to how long it take to get back an animal companion not "more punishing".

"If your companion dies, you can spend a week of downtime to replace it at no cost."

And it comes back to full functionality instantly when it goes from 0 hp to 1, with the wounded condition, like any other creature.

Putting a 1 minute cool down (or any number) on an Eidolon as soon as it hits 0 hp or demanifests is unnecessarily crippling.

You just don't want your strategy of being rendered repeatedly unconcious while mapping a dungeon strategy taken away

Barbarian have to wait a minute to rage in between rages. An eidolon not coming back for 1 minute after it unmanifests is much less punishing than gaining the wounded condition on a reaction lol.

[Rysky]

Martialmasters wrote:

Barbarian have to wait a minute to rage in between rages.

A Barbarian can still f&@% you up when not raging.

Eidolonless Summoner not so much.

[Martialmasters]

Rysky wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Barbarian have to wait a minute to rage in between rages.

A Barbarian can still f@!@ you up when not raging.

Eidolonless Summoner not so much.

Where are your 4 spell slots. 5 cantrips. Staff. Wands. Scrolls.

They can still f!@# you up just fine.

[Rysky]

Martialmasters wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Barbarian have to wait a minute to rage in between rages.

A Barbarian can still f@!@ you up when not raging.

Eidolonless Summoner not so much.

Where are your 4 spell slots. 5 cantrips. Staff. Wands. Scrolls.

They can still f#&* you up just fine.

Eh

[graystone]

Rysky wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Barbarian have to wait a minute to rage in between rages.

A Barbarian can still f~$$ you up when not raging.

Eidolonless Summoner not so much.

If all the summoner is has worthwhile is their pet, there is something wrong with the class IMO.

[Rysky]

graystone wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Barbarian have to wait a minute to rage in between rages.

A Barbarian can still f~$$ you up when not raging.

Eidolonless Summoner not so much.

If all the summoner is has worthwhile is their pet, there is something wrong with the class IMO.

It’s not the only thing, but it is half of it.

Half of a class by itself is bad, that goes for any class.

[graystone]

Rysky wrote:

graystone wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Barbarian have to wait a minute to rage in between rages.

A Barbarian can still f~$$ you up when not raging.

Eidolonless Summoner not so much.

If all the summoner is has worthwhile is their pet, there is something wrong with the class IMO.

It’s not the only thing, but it is half of it.

Half of a class by itself is bad, that goes for any class.

Yeah, but you just disagreed with yourself on the barbarian. It loses it's rage and rage abilities which is a big chunk of the barbarian. Being reduced to 0 hp SHOULD be impactful. I'm not seeing a 1 min cooldown, which is pretty darn low in this edition, as onerous especially compared to an animal companion.

[Martialmasters]

Rysky wrote:

graystone wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Barbarian have to wait a minute to rage in between rages.

A Barbarian can still f~$$ you up when not raging.

Eidolonless Summoner not so much.

If all the summoner is has worthwhile is their pet, there is something wrong with the class IMO.

It’s not the only thing, but it is half of it.

Half of a class by itself is bad, that goes for any class.

You lost 2 AC, 2 to hit, and your damage type likely changes. Hit dice of your attack probably as well, but you attack from range and have only one body to be attacked as well as having your rounds freed up to cast more and use random third action skills during this time.

You actually gain some benefits. The barbarian just loses.

Summoner without eidolon by level 6 or 8 onwards is better if than a non raging barbarian.

[Rysky]

graystone wrote:

Rysky wrote:

graystone wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Barbarian have to wait a minute to rage in between rages.

A Barbarian can still f~$$ you up when not raging.

Eidolonless Summoner not so much.

If all the summoner is has worthwhile is their pet, there is something wrong with the class IMO.

It’s not the only thing, but it is half of it.

Half of a class by itself is bad, that goes for any class.

Yeah, but you just disagreed with yourself on the barbarian. It loses it's rage and rage abilities which is a big chunk of the barbarian. Being reduced to 0 hp SHOULD be impactful. I'm not seeing a 1 min cooldown, which is pretty darn low in this edition, as onerous especially compared to an animal companion.

I didn't.

A Barbarian not being able to rage is bad, it'll still f$$! you up. One of the nice things of being a Martial class.

A Summoner without their Eidolon is taken out of the fight unless they picked all their spells to be useful absentia Eidolon.

[Rysky]

Martialmasters wrote:

Rysky wrote:

graystone wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Barbarian have to wait a minute to rage in between rages.

A Barbarian can still f~$$ you up when not raging.

Eidolonless Summoner not so much.

If all the summoner is has worthwhile is their pet, there is something wrong with the class IMO.

It’s not the only thing, but it is half of it.

Half of a class by itself is bad, that goes for any class.

You lost 2 AC, 2 to hit, and your damage type likely changes. Hit dice of your attack probably as well, but you attack from range and have only one body to be attacked as well as having your rounds freed up to cast more and use random third action skills during this time.

You actually gain some benefits. The barbarian just loses.

Summoner without eidolon by level 6 or 8 onwards is better if than a non raging barbarian.

Not even close.

[Martialmasters]

Just because you don't know how to leverage a caster by early mid game doesn't devalue them vs what amounts to an eidolon (no rage barbarian)

[Rysky]

You do know Summoners don't get as many spell slots as other casters, right?

[Physicskid42]

This problem could be avoided entirely if the eidolon and the summoner had more synchronized abilities.