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Deriven's goal here is to make the mechanic look as cumbersome as possible as a way of convincing people to join them in petitioning for the mechanic's removal.
Not only are the questions rhetorical, but even attempting to answer them is potentially undermining their crusade, which probably explains the passive aggression and naked hostility being thrown your way.
I don't think it's the place of anyone here on the forums to attach motivations to anyone's posting. I almost always disagree with DF on just about every topic, but I believe they're being sincere in their feelings.
I also think that the rule is fairly simple to understand, but could use clarity. I also don't think that the solution to the "problem" is to get rid of the mechanic.
It does seem to me that he's acting the politician, but I'll let him speak for himself as to his motivation.
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I can't speak to intent, but I can say that the effect of overstating the complications involved in shared HP seems to be muddying the waters around the ability in question to make it seem less clear than it is, presumably to try and influence people against the concept as a whole.
Most of the real issues around it can be solved with some very simple clarifying text and by clearly delineating which statuses/conditions affect actions.
The effect of abilities and conditions that deal with actions isn't clear with minions either. Asking for the eidolons to use the minion rules definitely won't solve the issue.
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Deriven's goal here is to make the mechanic look as cumbersome as possible as a way of convincing people to join them in petitioning for the mechanic's removal.
Not only are the questions rhetorical, but even attempting to answer them is potentially undermining their crusade, which probably explains the passive aggression and naked hostility being thrown your way.
Deriven's not the only one bringing up concerns to the issues the current Summoner introduces.
You're singling them out for no reason.Several people are bringing up issues with interactions to 2e's rulesystem, numerous examples of exceptions and concessions that would have to be made, and mechanics that put the Summoner into a not satisfactory spot.
You can't just look at the feedback so many people have and ignore them , see it as unjustified, because it doesn't fit your worldview or because people bring up good points others will also see.
We all want Summoner to be cool, fun, effective, and a class that will bring value to 2e; we all have the same goal here.
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You can't just look at the feedback so many people have and ignore them , see it as unjustified, because it doesn't fit your worldview or because people bring up good points others will also see.
This is a correct statement.
Looking at feedback from players who have not been super active on this board does not typically paint the same "Doom and Gloom" outlook some people are pushing, which I see as a good indication that things likely aren't as bad as being said in said doom and gloom posts.
Not to mention my own experience says something similar - I've not run into regular complications in actual play (examples used have not come up), and at absolutely no point has the class underperformed relative to the rest of the party.
Yes, I'm at level 6 which is one of the ideal points for the class - but what that tells me is that the focus should be on smoothing out the experience to bring all levels in line approximately with the play experience at this tier of play, not asking for massive power bumps like more effective hp at all tiers of play.
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After reading a heavy amount of your feedback it genuinely feels as though you are so terrified of having the Summoner show even an inkling of its 1E state in which it could single handedly handle any encounter and overshadow everyone else in the party, that you are fighting tooth and claw to keep it as low as humanly possible.
As I really love the concept, yeah, its safe to say I hope it comes out in a state I can actually play without offending the rest of the table and making them feel bad.
The 1E Summoner really did leave that much of a negative impression on every 1E player I know.
That means avoiding situations where people think things like -
"Why does the Summoner get to play essentially two characters?"
"Why is the Summmoner's pet essentially as good in combat as my actual full Martial character?"
"Why does the Summoner's pet get access to or early access to all these abilities no one else gets access to at all?"
"Why does the Summoner get all this pet stuff IN ADDITION to being a legitimate spellcaster?"
"Why am I'm playing X, if a Summoner is both X AND Y without any meaningful drawbacks?"
None of that has to do with soloing encounters, or being ridiculously numericall overpowered.
It all has to do with Summoners feeling like they get "more", or special treatment over everyone else at the table.
I dont want to be the guy at the table everyone else assumes wasnt happy with a level playing field, and had to have twice the hitpoints, twice the bodies, and all of the capability of any other Player at the table.
Not to mention, all of the inherent balance to 2E you cite comes from the fact that the system is tightly bound within certain limits - and breaking those limits and building the Summoner too differently from everyone else is exactly how you end up breaking that balance.
Because that is quintessentially the idea of the Beast Master Hunter, or the Demonology Warlock, or the Necromancer: Master and Creature together stronger than apart.
Funnily enough, I've played all these builds in the MMO theyre sourced from (or possibly MMOs - I've played Necro in several) and in none of them does their pet have anywhere near the potency and power of the 2E version of the Eidolon.
In most cases, the pet for these classes has a single point of specialization (minor dps, crowd control, tanking, anti magic) and is a blip compared to what the actual main "character" is doing.
As it currently stands in the 2E build of the class, for most of its progression the Summoner is a spellcaster with 2/3 the baseline allotment of top level spells as everyone else (and half the time the same proficiency) with a second body with near maximum physical attributes, baseline martial AC (other than two levels you're behind, and the range of levels you're ahead and tied with monks) and Martial offensive proficiency.
We're already in a place where Summoner is almost a spellcaster character and almost a Martial character. If it crosses either line and is as good as a Spellcaster or a Martial, suddenly you have a huge issue because now the option exists to be good in one category and ALMOST as good in the other... which is fundamentally more than anyone else.
We're already toeing the line on balance so far as I can see. At level 5-6, the class feels extremely potent. If that isn't true at all levels, let's get it there.
But a lot of people seem to want to pile a lot more into the class, and im having a real hard time imagining that as in any way necessary.
Things like Shared HP and Shared Actions go a long way toward ensuring it feel like the Summoner is on a level playing field with the rest of the party, and if that level playing field goes away im back to building Summoners just for the experience - and never getting to play one (or abandoning it after one session).
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I do see some people wanting to crank the dial to 11, I’m only asking for *slightly* more. I think it needs a small nudge toward more powerful.
Were probably not THAT far apart on expectations then.
Id like to see the power curve of the class smoothed out to where it currently peaks - that means removing the levels where accuracy and AC lags for the Eidolon.
On spellcasting, I'm honestly no exactly sure what the perfect solution is - I think Summoners get the most important spell slots, with 2 and 2 top level. For spell levels under that, scrolls are an extremely affordable option for supplementing your Repetoire and staves (once clarified) and wands can push that even further... but the lack of free slots in these levels feels like a significant limitation, even if it can be remedied with reasonable amounts of gold.
I think the hypothetical Eidolon Focus spells may help out a lot there.
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For spell levels under that, scrolls are an extremely affordable option for supplementing your Repetoire and staves (once clarified) and wands can push that even further... but the lack of free slots in these levels feels like a significant limitation, even if it can be remedied with reasonable amounts of gold.
For myself, needing to toss cash at it to make up for those lower level slots is a deal breaker [same for the magus]. IMO, it feels bad that you have to work to 'catch up', even if that is a pittance of cash it's more than I want to HAVE to spend. If I want to blow cash to do something cool or for a rainy day that's one thing but for every day utility? Nope.
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For spell levels under that, scrolls are an extremely affordable option for supplementing your Repetoire and staves (once clarified) and wands can push that even further... but the lack of free slots in these levels feels like a significant limitation, even if it can be remedied with reasonable amounts of gold.For myself, needing to toss cash at it to make up for those lower level slots is a deal breaker [same for the magus]. IMO, it feels bad that you have to work to 'catch up', even if that is a pittance of cash it's more than I want to HAVE to spend. If I want to blow cash to do something cool or for a rainy day that's one thing but for every day utility? Nope.
I mean, gold and consumables are factored into expectations for character progression. The assumption seems to be everyone is going to be using some degree of consumables...
That said, theyre more or less the opposite of popular, and generally for some reason a lot of people tend to hoard them instead of using them as appropriate.
Theyre actually extremely powerful when used for everyday things, while adventuring.
If consumables aren't your thing though, there's always multiclassing which helpfully provide exactly the "1 spell per level of lower level slots" people seem to want...
Theres more than one way to supplement spellcasting is what Im saying. The lack of lower level spells is within the power of the Summoner to fix with a few feats.
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I mean, gold and consumables are factored into expectations for character progression.
Total gold is: the individual breakdown of items/consumables is just a suggestion and it even tells you you can use the total gold as a budget to do your own list. So the only true expectation is on total gold for the group, not on individual items or consumables.
That said, theyre more or less the opposite of popular, and generally for some reason a lot of people tend to hoard them instead of using them as appropriate.
Let me put it this way: I playing all the way through fallout without using a stimpack [healing item] or breaking a lockpick [breaks on a failed check]. It's a bad, bad day I have been forced to use a consumable: something has gone HORRIBLY wrong at that point.
actually extremely powerful when used for everyday things, while adventuring.
In a cost/benefit analysis, collecting them allows you to trade up to a real permanent item [especially things like Talismans]. The only everyday use I'd EVER do is those that you get for free through a class/feat feature like alchemist. But PAY for them every day... The idea makes my skin crawl.
If consumables aren't your thing though, there's always multiclassing which helpfully provide exactly the "1 spell per level of lower level slots" people seem to want...
An option, but it doesn't save the class for me: I can do that on ANY class with a better chassis what works the way I want before adding a dedication. Multiclass is to add to a class IMO, not to save it.
more than one way to supplement spellcasting is what Im saying. The lack of lower level spells is within the power of the Summoner to fix with a few feats.
For me, the fact that it needs fixed is the issue, not that I can put a bandaid over it. The only way it can work for me if it's like the oracle, where I loathe the class features and feats SO much I'm just there for the spellcasting and don't care that I use every class feat for archetypes.
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Let me put it this way: I playing all the way through fallout without using a stimpack [healing item] or breaking a lockpick [breaks on a failed check]. It's a bad, bad day I have been forced to use a consumable: something has gone HORRIBLY wrong at that point.
I used to be this way, but then I realized that with crafting and such, there was essentially no limit on such things! I have a hard time playing Fallout 4 without a serious addiction to Jet...
Anyway, I get that some people dont like consumables.
I do feel like that creates an issue when consumables exist, and people who are willing to take advantage will always be better off than those who dont... and in this case, it creates a weird situation where Summoners are either OK or Not OK on spells based on which category you live in.
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For spell levels under that, scrolls are an extremely affordable option for supplementing your Repetoire and staves (once clarified) and wands can push that even further... but the lack of free slots in these levels feels like a significant limitation, even if it can be remedied with reasonable amounts of gold.For myself, needing to toss cash at it to make up for those lower level slots is a deal breaker [same for the magus]. IMO, it feels bad that you have to work to 'catch up', even if that is a pittance of cash it's more than I want to HAVE to spend. If I want to blow cash to do something cool or for a rainy day that's one thing but for every day utility? Nope.I mean, gold and consumables are factored into expectations for character progression. The assumption seems to be everyone is going to be using some degree of consumables...
That said, theyre more or less the opposite of popular, and generally for some reason a lot of people tend to hoard them instead of using them as appropriate.
Theyre actually extremely powerful when used for everyday things, while adventuring.
If consumables aren't your thing though, there's always multiclassing which helpfully provide exactly the "1 spell per level of lower level slots" people seem to want...
Theres more than one way to supplement spellcasting is what Im saying. The lack of lower level spells is within the power of the Summoner to fix with a few feats.
Even if it's factored in, the tight math means that under-level consumables aren't doing much, and even at-level or above-level consumables cost a lot of your wealth, just to use them once and be screwed for the rest of the adventuring day (or more depending on circumstance). Some are pretty nice, but require a lot of system mastery to make work, or don't scale well at all.
As for not using them, this is largely because a lot of them are impractical or have requirements. Let's take potions/elixirs; in an optimum low level scenario, it takes 2 actions to use them, which triggers reactions (and can make you waste both consumable and actions simultaneously), and you get maybe 2D8+5 out of it, which is an average of 14 HP. For 2 actions. And then you get thumped for anywhere from 15 to 30 damage sometimes. You spent more actions just to get hurt, and if you need to run away, you better have Mobility or Elf Step or some other way to ignore reactions, or chances are, the pain train is coming.
Bombs are even worse, simply because they have garbage range (unless you're alchemist, then they're passable), do weak damage (unless you know they have weakness, but predicated on hitting), and the biggest issue is that they require martial proficiency. That's right, even Rogues, a class very likely to make use of them, can't use bombs as a base feature. Spellcasters usually have a good array of cantrips with better range, damage, and to-hit than bombs, without requiring proficiency to do so, and the martial proficient types can use bows, which are faster, longer range, and also easier to hit with. Plus have comparable damage per hit. And don't cost a ton of WBL to use one time ever.
Talismans can be useful, but are rare, have ridiculous requirements, and some don't even scale. The Fortifying Pebble is probably the most useful Talisman I've seen in play (and from the book) so far, and it's just so low level and doesn't scale that by 15th level or so, it's a drop in the bucket and does very little to protect your shield when 60+ damage comes in at a time.
And of course, Scrolls/Wands being the most useful and versatile of the consumables, still may suffer from action economy and scaling, as you need to be able to draw and use them, which take your whole turn unless you come with them in hand. Which is possible. But by no means par for the course unless you always know what's coming up.
Plenty of reasons for people to not use consumables that they should really be optional purchases.
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I used to be this way, but then I realized that with crafting and such, there was essentially no limit on such things!
Use them? When you could sell them for pennies on the dollar? Blasphemy! Plus crafting would take away from my teddy bear and garden gnome collecting. ;)
And of course, Scrolls/Wands being the most useful and versatile of the consumables, still may suffer from action economy and scaling, as you need to be able to draw and use them, which take your whole turn unless you come with them in hand. Which is possible. But by no means par for the course unless you always know what's coming up.
Summoners are pretty good about not having competing demands for carrying stuff in their hands - carrying your primary consumablr ready to use is actually easier for a Summoner than most.
By mid level (9 or so) scrolls of potent defenses like mirro image or Invisibility are cheap and practical to buy a few of for a pinch, and everyone loves Fear (both the level 1 and heightened versions are great scroll material since theres no incap tag, and both are low enough level to eventually become cheap).
Healing consumables in the hands of a Summoner are also in the unique position of being a heal for a frontliner, from the back!
Like I said, I get that some people dont like consumables. But for me, they really kill the feeling of being especially squeezed for spell slots...
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It does seem to me that he's acting the politician, but I'll let him speak for himself as to his motivation.
Look, I was almost onboard with the shared hit point pool. But the overall mechanic of two creatures in one just adds an unnecessary level of complexity in a game with a lot of little bits and pieces players have to remember.
I'm tired of new bits that I have to explain to players or remember for little in game value. Oracle curses and how they interact with focus spells, different levels of spell DCs based on training with MC archetypes, tracking panache each round and finisher tags and whether the player can attack or not, along with all the conditions, looking up each spell effect, slight differences in tags on spells, and the like.
Now I'm going to have this new class where I have to read it to figure out a particular effect on the summoner and eidolon, how it works with the 2 as 1 body mechanics, tactically determining how the monsters will attack the shared body with the obvious sigil connecting them, the shared action system, make sure the player tracks the shared MAP if they decide to launch an attack roll cantrip, and the like. It's needless complexity and limitations on a class that will turn a lot of players off because the class itself does not provide any power increase to account for all the needless complexity.
Sorry, I was almost onboard with the shared hit point pool. It made it easier to track. I like the summoned creatures supporting the eidolon. But I don't need new techy rules as one Paizo designer called them for not much value added to my game. I can just ban the class and be done with it. If my player likes the Magus, he can buy the book for it and I'll see if it integrates well enough.
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I explained the mechanics to friends who have LDs and often struggle with the more crunchy bits of tabletops and they had absolutely 0 issues with it.
It's really not that complicated.
Even if it's factored in, the tight math means that under-level consumables aren't doing much, and even at-level or above-level consumables cost a lot of your wealth, just to use them once and be screwed for the rest of the adventuring day (or more depending on circumstance). Some are pretty nice, but require a lot of system mastery to make work, or don't scale well at all.
Scrolls of buffs and debuffs never go out of style. And level-3 or lower are very high value for their price.
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Even if it's factored in, the tight math means that under-level consumables aren't doing much, and even at-level or above-level consumables cost a lot of your wealth, just to use them once and be screwed for the rest of the adventuring day (or more depending on circumstance). Some are pretty nice, but require a lot of system mastery to make work, or don't scale well at all.Scrolls of buffs and debuffs never go out of style. And level-3 or lower are very high value for their price.
I have yet to have them IN style. That's money you're wasting there: you're literally burning money. :P
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I have yet to have them IN style. That's money you're wasting there: you're literally burning money. :P
What, you've never bought and item and then sold it later?
You just burned half its value!
You're expected to get enough resources to absorb some burnt cash ;)
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I have yet to have them IN style. That's money you're wasting there: you're literally burning money. :P
I used to have that opinion, too. Then I realized that many permanent magic items have a lifetime where they provide worthwhile benefit, after which you sell them back for half value. Over the life of the “permanent” item, did you do better than you would have if you’d spent half of the cost on consumables? Hopefully yes, but it’s not a guarantee...
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What, you've never bought and item and then sold it later?
You upgrade it or use it until it's destroyed. I don't know what I'd buy I don't want to keep. It'd have to be a literal apocalypse to sell stuff I want to keep.
Then I realized that many permanent magic items have a lifetime where they provide worthwhile benefit, after which you sell them back for half value.
Or you upgrade them. Selling is for all those consumables and items you don't use.
Over the life of the “permanent” item, did you do better than you would have if you’d spent half of the cost on consumables? Hopefully yes, but it’s not a guarantee...
It is me: I KNOW I'll feel better without the consumables pretending they aren't money in less convenient form. If I was going to sell a “permanent” item, it'd be so I could afford a different “permanent” item: it happens some times with found items you might use them until you find/buy a better item.
Now that isn't to say I'll never use a consumables but it'd be ones found during the adventure as a sort of a macguffin: ie, the potions/scrolls of underwater breathing to adventure underwater.
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The problem with "just use consumables" is that in my personal experience I have never received so much as a potion as loot, and for some reason the 3-4 DMs I have played with actively seem to DISLIKE having them in the game.
I have been in games where I myself, or other players, have attempted to find shops that sell potions only to be met with a classic MMO "Go pick me 10 flowers and I'll make some" or "we don't sell that here."
I don't play adventure paths, ever. I've never played a published adventure in D&D or in Pathfinder, all of my DMS homebrew, and consumables are a nonfactor.
Thats... not really the core assumption any more though.
The game is kindof set up with the idea that settlements have a level, and that common items of that level or below can be obtained there.
The balance of things is contingent on you having access to gear in 2E.
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And of course, Scrolls/Wands being the most useful and versatile of the consumables, still may suffer from action economy and scaling, as you need to be able to draw and use them, which take your whole turn unless you come with them in hand. Which is possible. But by no means par for the course unless you always know what's coming up.Summoners are pretty good about not having competing demands for carrying stuff in their hands - carrying your primary consumablr ready to use is actually easier for a Summoner than most.
By mid level (9 or so) scrolls of potent defenses like mirro image or Invisibility are cheap and practical to buy a few of for a pinch, and everyone loves Fear (both the level 1 and heightened versions are great scroll material since theres no incap tag, and both are low enough level to eventually become cheap).
Healing consumables in the hands of a Summoner are also in the unique position of being a heal for a frontliner, from the back!
Like I said, I get that some people dont like consumables. But for me, they really kill the feeling of being especially squeezed for spell slots...
If their base spellcasting gets shored up, I will be inclined to agree with the assessment that Summoners will rely on consumables more often.
Until then, I'm of the opinion that wands and staves become more mandatory than potions, talismans, scrolls, etc., due to their extremely limited spellcasting.
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Until then, I'm of the opinion that wands and staves become more mandatory than potions, talismans, scrolls, etc., due to their extremely limited spellcasting.
Ya know, funnily enough; people aren't even actually sure if Summoners or Magus can use staves lmao due to them losing their lower-level spellslots.
There's a whole thread on the discourse around it, i doubt it was the intention of the devs but it's something that came up.
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Until then, I'm of the opinion that wands and staves become more mandatory than potions, talismans, scrolls, etc., due to their extremely limited spellcasting.
Ya know, funnily enough; people aren't even actually sure if Summoners or Magus can use staves lmao due to them losing their lower-level spellslots.
There's a whole thread on the discourse around it, i doubt it was the intention of the devs but it's something that came up.
I'm assuming this gets fixed.
I can't honestly imagine its intentional.
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Until then, I'm of the opinion that wands and staves become more mandatory than potions, talismans, scrolls, etc., due to their extremely limited spellcasting.
Ya know, funnily enough; people aren't even actually sure if Summoners or Magus can use staves lmao due to them losing their lower-level spellslots.
There's a whole thread on the discourse around it, i doubt it was the intention of the devs but it's something that came up.
I'm assuming this gets fixed.
I can't honestly imagine its intentional.
I imagine this will get clarified.
I don't doubt that it won't get fixed, though. Major differences there.
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I think it would be super detrimental to start houseruling things and then use that as data. Unless you very specifically called that out in your reports and as well on the forums. I feel confident in saying that Paizo is using forums discussion to also get feedback on pain points, clarification problems, and unintentional errors.
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I explained the mechanics to friends who have LDs and often struggle with the more crunchy bits of tabletops and they had absolutely 0 issues with it.
It's really not that complicated.
Explaining and playing are two different things. I'd love to see how it goes at the table over the course of an AP with all types of different powers, hazards, spells, and the like coming up.
When I have people on this forum thinking skittering assault only causes the summoner to be hit by the worse attack when skittering assault is clearly a single target Whirlwind type of attack that requires an individual hit roll and attack against each target then I'm seeing problems. I don't intend to argue this material.
Right now I have seen many attacks like skittering assault.
Lots of frightful presences and stink auras which would force both the eidolon and summoner to save in essence giving two chances of failure and requiring two successful rolls. Since the eidolon uses your spell DC, does that mean it's DC for powers is one lower if you are affected even if they are not?
Lots of AoE effects that hit at a long range requiring two saves and taking the worse one which if a critical fail can eat all your hit points. Higher level AoE can completely obliterate your hit points. I practically considered Reflex saves better than Will at this point given the extreme damage from a critical fail. My bard has been absolutely obliterated by AOE damage. It's super hard to get energy resistance that can stop that insane damage from a critical fail.
Spells like horrid wilting that individually target creatures over a long range. How does that work? Like an AOE or individual save each and only take worse hit? Or like each target taking full damage and saving like a single target?
Confusion spells that would require two rolls. If the summoner is confused, can he use his actions to make his eidolon attack without confusion? If the eidolon is confused, does it use one action to attack randomly or get no actions because you choose not to act together further proving the eidolon isn't independent?
What about something like Hill Giant Wide swing? Individual or AoE? I would probably play this like Skittering Assault as it requires separate hit rolls.
There are a lot of abilities out there. When they come up, time to spend time figuring out how they figure out with the 2 as 1 with a likely debate with the player if it does not act in a way most favorable for their survival.
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I explained the mechanics to friends who have LDs and often struggle with the more crunchy bits of tabletops and they had absolutely 0 issues with it.
It's really not that complicated.
Explaining and playing are two different things. I'd love to see how it goes at the table over the course of an AP with all types of different powers, hazards, spells, and the like coming up.
When I have people on this forum thinking skittering assault only causes the summoner to be hit by the worse attack when skittering assault is clearly a single target Whirlwind type of attack that requires an individual hit roll and attack against each target then I'm seeing problems. I don't intend to argue this material.
Right now I have seen many attacks like skittering assault.
Lots of frightful presences and stink auras which would force both the eidolon and summoner to save in essence giving two chances of failure and requiring two successful rolls. Since the eidolon uses your spell DC, does that mean it's DC for powers is one lower if you are affected even if they are not?
Lots of AoE effects that hit at a long range requiring two saves and taking the worse one which if a critical fail can eat all your hit points. Higher level AoE can completely obliterate your hit points. I practically considered Reflex saves better than Will at this point given the extreme damage from a critical fail. My bard has been absolutely obliterated by AOE damage. It's super hard to get energy resistance that can stop that insane damage from a critical fail.
Spells like horrid wilting that individually target creatures over a long range. How does that work? Like an AOE or individual save each and only take worse hit? Or like each target taking full damage and saving like a single target?
Confusion spells that would require two rolls. If the summoner is confused, can he use his actions to make his eidolon attack without confusion? If the eidolon is confused, does it use one action to attack...
Attacks which require multiple rolls would count as multiple attacks, especially if an ability, like Flurry of Blows, states that it counts as X attacks for Y purpose. It otherwise should count as its listed number of attacks for any other purpose. This is true for Whirlwind Attack as well, based on its wording.
If that's how the Eidolon's DC works, then yes. If your DC is lowered, so is the Eidolon's as a result since they are the same number.
Welcome to checks and balances. You want a decent martial and decent spellcaster to exist at the same time? You're gonna pay for it twice as much.
Single target effects work as normal against the target they're attacking. If you attack an Eidolon or Summoner with a Disintegrate, it's no different than if you were attacking a Fighter or Wizard with a Disintegrate.
Confusion is a bit of a weird case. If an Eidolon is confused, the Summoner doesn't have to give it any actions, and can just act with the Eidolon just sitting there being dumb until the confusion goes away or is acted upon. Vice-versa if the Summoner is confused.
It definitely requires a lot of system mastery to be able to just answer these questions, which is a major turn-off for beginner players or players who aren't that savvy with the rules and their wording, which is crucial for these ability interactions. Summoner in PF1 was already a time-waster in games due to how many things they can summon and what a Summoner can do in a turn. So, instead of it being "Let's waste an hour so Tim the Summoner can dictate to his minions," it's "Let's waste an hour to see how X ability interacts with the Summoner and Eidolon." And with new content being released that has their own wording, we're going to be doing that basically every session with new enemies on the block.
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If a critically failed save obliterates your HP, imagine what it would do if the two pools are separated and the Summoner only has 6 per level instead of 10.
Yeah, maybe only one between them and their eidolon will crit fail, but if it's the Summoner who goes down then the eidolon disappears; if it's the eidolon, you have a damaged Summoner alone.
I'd rather have both active, albeit low on HP.
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If a critically failed save obliterates your HP, imagine what it would do if the two pools are separated and the Summoner only has 6 per level instead of 10.
Yeah, maybe only one between them and their eidolon will crit fail, but if it's the Summoner who goes down then the eidolon disappears; if it's the eidolon, you have a damaged Summoner alone.
I'd rather have both active, albeit low on HP.
Sure, but then the next normal hit knocks you both down even if the summoner is 2 rooms away. Or the crit still knocks you both down anyway WITH the greater hp. Or... If We're making up hypotheticals to make it look better or worse, it's not hard to paint it one way or another.
If the eidolon has it's own hp and it trips a trap that would have killed anyone else [say Power Word Kill] would just have to resummon it without having to use any other resources like having to get a linked summoner up: see, it's easy.
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If a critically failed save obliterates your HP, imagine what it would do if the two pools are separated and the Summoner only has 6 per level instead of 10.
Yeah, maybe only one between them and their eidolon will crit fail, but if it's the Summoner who goes down then the eidolon disappears; if it's the eidolon, you have a damaged Summoner alone.
I'd rather have both active, albeit low on HP.
Exactly. Only one will likely critical fail and if they do, only one of them is down, likely the bird. The druid can easily get them back up. A nimble bird companion is very, very good at Reflex saves and moves 60 feet with an independent action to stride or strike. Much easier to keep them apart. A bird companion gets flyby attack where it can move up to 60 feet and attack at some point along the way. If the bird critical fails, you don't feel it at all.
Whereas if the summoner or eidolon critical fail, that's 100 or more hit points gone from their joint pool. Just like if the eidolon or summoner is critically hit by an attack, they are both critically hit by an attack. Whereas an animal companion is crit, it is crit. If a druid is crit, then only the druid is crit.
One hit point pool, two points to attack, one point substantially weaker than the other as in it is much, much smarter to hammer the summoner than waste time messing with his eidolon given they share the same hit point pool. Smart creatures should always attack the weaker point if the attack affects the same resource in this case a shared hit point pool.
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One hit point pool, two points to attack, one point substantially weaker than the other as in it is much, much smarter to hammer the summoner than waste time messing with his eidolon given they share the same hit point pool. Smart creatures should always attack the weaker point if the attack affects the same resource in this case a shared hit point pool.
The summoner doesn't have to be the weaker partner. If one is worried about the possibility, they can take steps to defend themselves. Make the enemy waste actions moving to you when you are just as protected as your eidolon.
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Sure, but then the next normal hit knocks you both down even if the summoner is 2 rooms away. Or the crit still knocks you both down anyway WITH the greater hp. Or... If We're making up hypotheticals to make it look better or worse, it's not hard to paint it one way or another.
If the eidolon has it's own hp and it trips a trap that would have killed anyone else [say Power Word Kill] would just have to resummon it without having to use any other resources like having to get a linked summoner up: see, it's easy.
Are you saying that with a separate HP pool, the Summoner can just resummon their dead eidolon with three actions, and it's all good?
In PF1 they would have to wait for the next day; being able to do that without a similar timeout would be brokenly good.Exactly. Only one will likely critical fail and if they do, only one of them is down, likely the bird. The druid can easily get them back up. A nimble bird companion is very, very good at Reflex saves and moves 60 feet with an independent action to stride or strike. Much easier to keep them apart. A bird companion gets flyby attack where it can move up to 60 feet and attack at some point along the way. If the bird critical fails, you don't feel it at all.
Whereas if the summoner or eidolon critical fail, that's 100 or more hit points gone from their joint pool. Just like if the eidolon or summoner is critically hit by an attack, they are both critically hit by an attack. Whereas an animal companion is crit, it is crit. If a druid is crit, then only the druid is crit.
One hit point pool, two points to attack, one point substantially weaker than the other as in it is much, much smarter to hammer the summoner than waste time messing with his eidolon given they share the same hit point pool. Smart creatures should always attack the weaker point if the attack affects the same resource in this case a shared hit point pool.
Let's compare the possible situations.
A Druid has got 8+Con HP per level, and their animal companion has got 6+Con.If the AC goes down, the Druid is still functional. It's normal, because the AC is not the main way they contribute to the fight. If the Druid goes unconscious instead, both them and their animal are shut down.
A Summoner has got 10+Con HP per level, and is more likely to survive the critical failure. If they don't, well, they are unconscious and the eidolon disappears.
A Summoner without shared HP probably has got 6+Con HP per level, while the eidolon probably has 8+Con. If the Summoner goes down, the eidolon disappears (if it works like in PF1). If the eidolon is reduced to zero, the Summoner is down to their spells to contribute.
Now, an AoE strong enough to 'kill' a 6 HP/level character on a critical fail will leave the Druid standing and able to fight regardless of who rolls low between them and their animal.
The shared-HP Summoner has more chances to critically fail, but will still be completely functional and with a decent chunk of HP left.
The PF1-style Summoner will either go down AND lose their eidolon, or both survive with heavy damage on the eidolon (and up to 50% on the Summoner).
Let's up the AoE to the point that it's strong enough to send an 8/level creature down on a crit fail.
If the Druid rolls low, game over for them - the animal won't do much even if they survive. Again, if the AC is the unlucky one, the Druid may be wounded but still strong.
The Summoner is low on HP, but again still 100% efficient.
The separated-HP Summoner instead has either the eidolon, or themselves AND the eidolon, down.
Extreme possibility: an AoE powerful enough to make even a 10 HP/level character go down if they critically fail the save.
For the Druid there's no meaningful difference from the previous example.
The shared-HP Summoner is probably out of the fight.
The independent-HP one crit-failing is out of the fight too, but the damage may be enough to do the same even if they get 'only' a regular fail.
It seems to me that a PF1-style Summoner eating a strong AoE loses out both to the Druid and to the shared-HP version, in every case.
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Are you saying that with a separate HP pool, the Summoner can just resummon their dead eidolon with three actions, and it's all good?
In PF1 they would have to wait for the next day; being able to do that without a similar timeout would be brokenly good.
The way it is now, slap a heal on the summoner and they can manifest it in 3 actions. So, 4 actions? Why would you need 1/2 a day making hp 2 pools? You'd still have to heal up the eidolon and it starts up wounded. Doesn't seem any more broken that healing up someone that was downed. Why would it need to be much different that an animal companion?
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Sure, but then the next normal hit knocks you both down even if the summoner is 2 rooms away. Or the crit still knocks you both down anyway WITH the greater hp. Or... If We're making up hypotheticals to make it look better or worse, it's not hard to paint it one way or another.
If the eidolon has it's own hp and it trips a trap that would have killed anyone else [say Power Word Kill] would just have to resummon it without having to use any other resources like having to get a linked summoner up: see, it's easy.
Are you saying that with a separate HP pool, the Summoner can just resummon their dead eidolon with three actions, and it's all good?
In PF1 they would have to wait for the next day; being able to do that without a similar timeout would be brokenly good.Exactly. Only one will likely critical fail and if they do, only one of them is down, likely the bird. The druid can easily get them back up. A nimble bird companion is very, very good at Reflex saves and moves 60 feet with an independent action to stride or strike. Much easier to keep them apart. A bird companion gets flyby attack where it can move up to 60 feet and attack at some point along the way. If the bird critical fails, you don't feel it at all.
Whereas if the summoner or eidolon critical fail, that's 100 or more hit points gone from their joint pool. Just like if the eidolon or summoner is critically hit by an attack, they are both critically hit by an attack. Whereas an animal companion is crit, it is crit. If a druid is crit, then only the druid is crit.
One hit point pool, two points to attack, one point substantially weaker than the other as in it is much, much smarter to hammer the summoner than waste time messing with his eidolon given they share the same hit point pool. Smart creatures should always attack the weaker point if the attack affects the same resource in this case a shared hit point pool.
Let's compare the possible situations.
A Druid has...
How would it compare to an eidolon designed like a animal companion? With the summoner having the 8 or 10 hit point pool and the summoner having the 6 hit point pool.