Strengths of the current summoner

[siegfriedliner]

1. It's simple and homogenised so new players should be able to pick it up quickly. It's very 5e.

2.There are no must have options or trap options.

3. It balanced way to have two bodies on the field at once.

4. It let's people how have to have that dragon pet they always wanted have it.

5.It is great a skills and cooperation with itself.

If I am missing any let me know ?

[citricking]

It and the magus are the only ways to have okay casting and okay round after round damage.

[Temperans]

1. This is Pathfinder not 5e. Simple and Homogenized is the anti-thesis of Pathfinder even in PF2. Even with all the standardization that Paizo has done PF2 is all about giving options. And Summoner lands on his face when that was the core of the Summoner.

2. The whole thing is a trap given that you are better of just playing a Monk or a class with actual casting and a companion.

3. There is no balance to the current 2 bodies. Its just 1 player getting more options for how to die from too much damage.

4. The current Eidolon type ignores what made the original Eidolons great. The fact you could done whatever you wanted. Being straight jacketed to play something you dont want is the opposite of what the Eidolon should be.

5. There are no coordination you are just spending twice the time to do anything another character could had done better.

Also 4 spells slots are not okay casting. And no getting spellcasting dedication is not excuse.

As for consistent damage, you can get more consistent damage by actually playing a martial. You would also get a lot more interesting turns than what the current summoner gives.

[siegfriedliner]

Temperans wrote:

1. This is Pathfinder not 5e. Simple and Homogenized is the anti-thesis of Pathfinder even in PF2. Even with all the standardization that Paizo has done PF2 is all about giving options. And Summoner lands on his face when that was the core of the Summoner.

2. The whole thing is a trap given that you are better of just playing a Monk or a class with actual casting and a companion.

3. There is no balance to the current 2 bodies. Its just 1 player getting more options for how to die from too much damage.

4. The current Eidolon type ignores what made the original Eidolons great. The fact you could done whatever you wanted. Being straight jacketed to play something you dont want is the opposite of what the Eidolon should be.

5. There are no coordination you are just spending twice the time to do anything another character could had done better.

Also 4 spells slots are not okay casting. And no getting spellcasting dedication is not excuse.

As for consistent damage, you can get more consistent damage by actually playing a martial. You would also get a lot more interesting turns than what the current summoner gives.

Hey I literally made another thread to state your concerns. This is a thread for positivity.

[TheGentlemanDM]

siegfriedliner wrote:

4. It let's people how have to have that dragon pet they always wanted have it.

This one feels like it's going under the radar.

I have had SO MANY PLAYERS in 5E who want to be a dragon, or have a pet dragon, and every time I have to politely explain 'no, that would be broken and I don't have a way to make it not be without some very heavy reflavouring.'

Being able to use the Summoner as a conversion point is a big deal for us cross-system DMs.

[Verzen]

Quote:

1. It's simple and homogenised so new players should be able to pick it up quickly. It's very 5e.

Ugh. If I wanted to play 5e, I'd play 5e. I play PF because I dislike homogenized characters that all feel the same. I want customization.

Quote:

2.There are no must have options or trap options.

There shouldn't be in the final version hopefully. But I do not like the idea that I need to boost or reinforce my eidolon every round or he will be subpar. I find that boring.

Quote:

3. It balanced way to have two bodies on the field at once.

The 3 action economy innately does that all its own. We dont really need separate HPs. I think it might cause more issues in the end.

Quote:

4. It let's people how have to have that dragon pet they always wanted have it.

But prevents others from having a custom chimeric Eidolon like many currently want.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

siegfriedliner wrote:

1. It's simple and homogenised so new players should be able to pick it up quickly. It's very 5e.

2.There are no must have options or trap options.

3. It balanced way to have two bodies on the field at once.

4. It let's people how have to have that dragon pet they always wanted have it.

5.It is great a skills and cooperation with itself.

If I am missing any let me know ?

I mean, you can choose to not invest in Charisma and be able to contribute in other ways without missing too much. Though in that case, why not have the ability to boost your class bonus in another attribute that would be more helpful, like Dexterity or Constitution?

Every class has a trap option of some sort. Fighters have feats like Sudden Leap, Wizards have theses like Improved Familiar Attunement, and so on. To suggest the Summoner has no trap options is highly unlikely and also unprecedented, especially since this is a playtest class and not a completed class, which is prone to errors as well as potentially missing options that haven't made to the playtest but may be published in the final product (which can also have unknown errors).

I disagree on the balanced portion. It's actually weaker than simply being a Druid or Ranger with an Animal Companion. Animal Companions can be brought back from Dying and continue fighting, and even if they do die, they're replaced in a week. Eidolons going down full on remove the biggest draw of a Summoner, and the Summoner themselves aren't going to be doing much for the rest of the combat with their reduced spells and ineffective cantrips. Since Rangers have strong martial capabilities and Druids have a solid spell list with good focus powers, an Eidolon should be stronger than those to compensate their lack of focus powers, spell slots, proficiencies, etc.

Dragon pet might have been made possible with future options via Beastmaster archetype, Druid, Ranger, etc. While this is a more accessible version, it's also a much weaker, more vulnerable version of those same options that could accomplish it much better than it being some manifested spirit thingie. If anything, it's a cruel (jo-)joke with that concept in mind.

[Verzen]

Temperans wrote:

1. This is Pathfinder not 5e. Simple and Homogenized is the anti-thesis of Pathfinder even in PF2. Even with all the standardization that Paizo has done PF2 is all about giving options. And Summoner lands on his face when that was the core of the Summoner.

2. The whole thing is a trap given that you are better of just playing a Monk or a class with actual casting and a companion.

3. There is no balance to the current 2 bodies. Its just 1 player getting more options for how to die from too much damage.

4. The current Eidolon type ignores what made the original Eidolons great. The fact you could done whatever you wanted. Being straight jacketed to play something you dont want is the opposite of what the Eidolon should be.

5. There are no coordination you are just spending twice the time to do anything another character could had done better.

Also 4 spells slots are not okay casting. And no getting spellcasting dedication is not excuse.

As for consistent damage, you can get more consistent damage by actually playing a martial. You would also get a lot more interesting turns than what the current summoner gives.

I'd rather get rid of the spellcasting all together and get a more flexible, customizable Eidolon that is more powerful. The Eidolon should be the class. We do not have a class yet where the pet is who the class is. Not just a feature of the class, but IS the class.

[siegfriedliner]

Yes the dragon fetishist are almost as common in pathfinder as they are in dungeon and dragons.

For some people it's not enough to be a dragon sorcerer, barbarian, disciple you also need a dragon sidekick that you can be more draconic than.

But at least in pathfinder 2e you can't be all those things and a dragonborn.

[breithauptclan]

Verzen wrote:

Quote:

4. It let's people how have to have that dragon pet they always wanted have it.

But prevents others from having a custom chimeric Eidolon like many currently want.

How so? A custom chimeric Eidolon sounds like a Beast Eidolon.

Eidolon wrote:

Whenyou choose your eidolon, you also determine their

appearance and general form within the parameters for
that particular type of eidolon.

So yeah. Make it as outlandish as you want. Just use the base stats for one of the existing types.

[KrispyXIV]

breithauptclan wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Quote:

4. It let's people how have to have that dragon pet they always wanted have it.

But prevents others from having a custom chimeric Eidolon like many currently want.

How so? A custom chimeric Eidolon sounds like a Beast Eidolon.

Eidolon wrote:

Whenyou choose your eidolon, you also determine their

appearance and general form within the parameters for
that particular type of eidolon.

So yeah. Make it as outlandish as you want. Just use the base stats for one of the existing types.

Vezren is steadfastly opposed to the idea of reflavoring anything - the expectations for his Eidolon must be that the base type matches exactly.

Despite that, I think every example given thus far by Vezren would fit well in any of the four base types we've gotten so far, and many of the ones we know are still to come.

Just requires a flexible outlook.

Which is my favorite thing about the current summoner - it allows and encourages me to do whatever I want with the rules, without handcuffing me to mechanics and putting those mechanics out of reach at level 1.

[Verzen]

breithauptclan wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Quote:

4. It let's people how have to have that dragon pet they always wanted have it.

But prevents others from having a custom chimeric Eidolon like many currently want.

How so? A custom chimeric Eidolon sounds like a Beast Eidolon.

Eidolon wrote:

Whenyou choose your eidolon, you also determine their

appearance and general form within the parameters for
that particular type of eidolon.

So yeah. Make it as outlandish as you want. Just use the base stats for one of the existing types.

Oh? I was unaware I could take a beast Eidolon and give it a breath attack. Can you point me to where that is in the playtest?

[Verzen]

Quote:

So yeah. Make it as outlandish as you want. Just use the base stats for one of the existing types.

Sorry. No. You are essentially saying, "Oh just use your imagination." Sorry but I am a mechanics person. Not an "imagination" person.

[Verzen]

KrispyXIV wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Quote:

4. It let's people how have to have that dragon pet they always wanted have it.

But prevents others from having a custom chimeric Eidolon like many currently want.

How so? A custom chimeric Eidolon sounds like a Beast Eidolon.

Eidolon wrote:

Whenyou choose your eidolon, you also determine their

appearance and general form within the parameters for
that particular type of eidolon.

So yeah. Make it as outlandish as you want. Just use the base stats for one of the existing types.

Vezren is steadfastly opposed to the idea of reflavoring anything - the expectations for his Eidolon must be that the base type matches exactly.

Despite that, I think every example given thus far by Vezren would fit well in any of the four base types we've gotten so far, and many of the ones we know are still to come.

Just requires a flexible outlook.

Which is my favorite thing about the current summoner - it allows and encourages me to do whatever I want with the rules, without handcuffing me to mechanics and putting those mechanics out of reach at level 1.

PFS actually has rules against reskinning as well.

[Verzen]

Quote:

Which is my favorite thing about the current summoner - it allows and encourages me to do whatever I want with the rules, without handcuffing me to mechanics and putting those mechanics out of reach at level 1.

Good for you. Except now I feel like I am being handcuffed from my design choices. If I want a storm Eidolon made of electricity and clouds, I should be able to get this at level 1 with a bludgeoning wind attack and an electric energy attack as well as, perhaps, a damage shield for electric damage of 1 damage at level 1 that scales. Or something to that effect.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

Oh? I was unaware I could take a beast Eidolon and give it a breath attack. Can you point me to where that is in the playtest?

Can we please stop acting like the list of options in the playtest is exhaustive? Its entirely possible that Breath Weapon will be an option available to Eidolon's in the main release, but that such an option doesn't need playtested because its effectiveness is well established and predictable.

Playtest, do a survey, and make sure to include "It would be really cool if there was a Evolution for breath weapons that all Eidolons could take, even if they do have to wait longer than for dragons (for whom its iconic)." or something similar.

Not a single person is against that.

Another major strength of the current summoner is that addressing items like this is as easy as adding a new Class Feat!

[Verzen]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Oh? I was unaware I could take a beast Eidolon and give it a breath attack. Can you point me to where that is in the playtest?

Can we please stop acting like the list of options in the playtest is exhaustive? Its entirely possible that Breath Weapon will be an option available to Eidolon's in the main release, but that such an option doesn't need playtested because its effectiveness is well established and predictable.

Playtest, do a survey, and make sure to include "It would be really cool if there was a Evolution for breath weapons that all Eidolons could take, even if they do have to wait longer than for dragons (for whom its iconic)." or something similar.

Not a single person is against that.

Another major strength of the current summoner is that addressing items like this is as easy as adding a new Class Feat!

There is no way shape or form that Paizo will be able to release every COSMETIC CONCEPT that I and many other people can possibly conceive. Just give us the tools to do it and let us do it.

[Ravingdork]

Verzen wrote:

PFS actually has rules against reskinning as well.

Unenforceable rules against reskinning. *smirk*

I'm not listening to anyone who tells me I can't use my imagination in a game of imagination.

[Verzen]

Ravingdork wrote:

Verzen wrote:

PFS actually has rules against reskinning as well.

Unenforceable rules against reskinning. *smirk*

I'm not listening to anyone who tells me I can't use my imagination in a game of imagination.

Well, not all of us are chaotic. Some of us are lawful. =)

[KrispyXIV]

Ravingdork wrote:

Verzen wrote:

PFS actually has rules against reskinning as well.

Unenforceable rules against reskinning. *smirk*

I'm not listening to anyone who tells me I can't use my imagination in a game of imagination.

"Wait, you're casting Arcane Spells? I thought your Eidolon was an elemental?"

"Well, yes. I prefer that list, and the Dragon actually supports the ability set I want more. But you see, I've got a fiery breath weapon and took other Evolutions to emphasise the Elemental aspect - you didn't even notice until I cast magic missile."

"Yup, sounds like an Elemental to me."

****

The above is a feature, not a bug.

[Verzen]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Verzen wrote:

PFS actually has rules against reskinning as well.

Unenforceable rules against reskinning. *smirk*

I'm not listening to anyone who tells me I can't use my imagination in a game of imagination.

"Wait, you're casting Arcane Spells? I thought your Eidolon was an elemental?"

"Well, yes. I prefer that list, and the Dragon actually supports the ability set I want more. But you see, I've got a fiery breath weapon and took other Evolutions to emphasise the Elemental aspect - you didn't even notice until I cast magic missile."

"Yup, sounds like an Elemental to me."

****

The above is a feature, not a bug.

No. It actually isn't a feature dude. The game literally tells you, " YOU HAVE A DRAGON" You can't just claim it's an elemental. If you do, you're violating the rules of the game.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

No. It actually isn't a feature dude. The game literally tells you, " YOU HAVE A DRAGON" You can't just claim it's an elemental. If you do, you're violating the rules of the game.

Yes, you're correct, its a Dragon *wink*.

It just looks and acts like an elemental, fights like an elemental and identifies as an elemental, so maybe since we're all friends playing a game at the table we can just pretend like its an elemental, just like we're pretending to be heroes in another setting.

Its no more of a stretch than saying my character who took levels in Fighter is a Ninja. He's not a very rogueish Ninja, but he went to Ninja college and uses Ninja weapons and all the Ninja's agree he's a Ninja.

[Verzen]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

No. It actually isn't a feature dude. The game literally tells you, " YOU HAVE A DRAGON" You can't just claim it's an elemental. If you do, you're violating the rules of the game.

Yes, you're correct, its a Dragon *wink*.

It just looks and acts like an elemental, fights like an elemental and identifies as an elemental, so maybe since we're all friends playing a game at the table we can just pretend like its an elemental, just like we're pretending to be heroes in another setting.

Its no more of a stretch than saying my character who took levels in Fighter is a Ninja. He's not a very rogueish Ninja, but he went to Ninja college and uses Ninja weapons and all the Ninja's agree he's a Ninja.

When Paizo sat down and created PF2e. They asked the question, "What would we like to focus on?" One of the biggest benefits PF had going for it was customization. Crunch. MECHANICAL crunch that you can put the system through and see what you can come up with. So when PF2 decided to work on their system, they wanted to focus on that. They wanted to focus on OPTIONS. Giving players MANY MANY choices as simply as possible.

And they succeeded.
They fixed the multiclassing system so classes feel like they blend together rather than being individual classes you're leveling up independently. The only thing you need to give up are feats. Cool. That works. At level 1, martials all get a class feat. Cool. They also get an ancestry feat, and a skill feat tied to their background. And all of these help to determine your stats. Very cool. You have a LOT of customization within the system and they succeeded.

Now that they finally created the summoner class, the Eidolon, which was the crunchiest crunch of all of crunch in PF1, is a shadow of its former self. It's a pregen. You cant modify it at all. And no, selecting evolution feats 1) Are not nearly the same thing and 2) You dont get nearly enough of them and 3) You can't modify or control what exactly your Eidolon is at all. You need to work in a specific little package that they put up and that just isn't fun. It's incredibly disappointing for a game BASED on crunch.

I dislike pregens for a reason, and playing a summoner makes me feel like I am playing a pregen. It's just not okay. Give us our crunch.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

The above is a feature, not a bug.

No. It actually isn't a feature dude. The game literally tells you, " YOU HAVE A DRAGON" You can't just claim it's an elemental. If you do, you're violating the rules of the game.

Ahem

[Verzen]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

The above is a feature, not a bug.

No. It actually isn't a feature dude. The game literally tells you, " YOU HAVE A DRAGON" You can't just claim it's an elemental. If you do, you're violating the rules of the game.

Ahem

Not nearly the same thing. What if I don't want a magma dragon? What if I wanted shiva from FF series with an ice breath?

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

I dislike pregens for a reason, and playing a summoner makes me feel like I am playing a pregen. It's just not okay. Give us our crunch.

We're not getting build-a-bear pick-a-point Evolutions and Eidolons back.

We have Frames (that might have sub-frames) that we can modify with feats.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

The above is a feature, not a bug.

No. It actually isn't a feature dude. The game literally tells you, " YOU HAVE A DRAGON" You can't just claim it's an elemental. If you do, you're violating the rules of the game.

Ahem

Not nearly the same thing. What if I don't want a magma dragon? What if I wanted shiva from FF series with an ice breath?

Then go play Final Fantasy.

Less sarcastic response: Pathfinder is not, and never was, "Directly copy this specific character from a different media", it's always been about building characters within the Pathfinder parameters.

[Wind Chime]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

No. It actually isn't a feature dude. The game literally tells you, " YOU HAVE A DRAGON" You can't just claim it's an elemental. If you do, you're violating the rules of the game.

Yes, you're correct, its a Dragon *wink*.

It just looks and acts like an elemental, fights like an elemental and identifies as an elemental, so maybe since we're all friends playing a game at the table we can just pretend like its an elemental, just like we're pretending to be heroes in another setting.

Its no more of a stretch than saying my character who took levels in Fighter is a Ninja. He's not a very rogueish Ninja, but he went to Ninja college and uses Ninja weapons and all the Ninja's agree he's a Ninja.

I agree with Krispy curently the dragon has next to zero draconic traits apart from a breath weapon so if you want to call your "dragon" a manticore and give him a piercing breath weapon (quill attack) then go ahead. I find calling the "dragon" a manticore to less galling than calling it a Dragon.

[Verzen]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

I dislike pregens for a reason, and playing a summoner makes me feel like I am playing a pregen. It's just not okay. Give us our crunch.

We're not getting build-a-bear pick-a-point Evolutions and Eidolons back.

We have Frames (that might have sub-frames) that we can modify with feats.

There's a way to do "build-a-bear" without being utterly broken, Rysky. AND without the point system. I already explained a way to do it.

Choose creature type (From all available types)
Choose 3 available attack types
1d8 (b/p/s)
1d6 (energy type acid, fire, cold, etc)
1d4 (agile b/p/s)
Optional - Weakness 1/2 level to b/p/s or energy types + resistance 1/2 level to b/p/s or energy types. Pick two of the options. One is a weakness, the other a resistance.

level 1) Pick 1 ability from a list

level 5) Pick 1 ability from a list

level 10) Pick 1 ability from a list

level 15) Pick 1 ability from a list

level 20) Pick 1 ability from a list

This is INFINITELY better than what we have right now.

[Verzen]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

The above is a feature, not a bug.

No. It actually isn't a feature dude. The game literally tells you, " YOU HAVE A DRAGON" You can't just claim it's an elemental. If you do, you're violating the rules of the game.

Ahem

Not nearly the same thing. What if I don't want a magma dragon? What if I wanted shiva from FF series with an ice breath?

Then go play Final Fantasy.

Less sarcastic response: Pathfinder is not, and never was, "Directly copy this specific character from a different media", it's always been about building characters within the Pathfinder parameters.

So what's wrong with me wanting the capabilities of creating an Eidolon like with the same FLAVOR as the ORIGINAL Eidolon in the APG?

That was within the pathfinder parameters, was it not?

[Verzen]

Wind Chime wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

No. It actually isn't a feature dude. The game literally tells you, " YOU HAVE A DRAGON" You can't just claim it's an elemental. If you do, you're violating the rules of the game.

Yes, you're correct, its a Dragon *wink*.

It just looks and acts like an elemental, fights like an elemental and identifies as an elemental, so maybe since we're all friends playing a game at the table we can just pretend like its an elemental, just like we're pretending to be heroes in another setting.

Its no more of a stretch than saying my character who took levels in Fighter is a Ninja. He's not a very rogueish Ninja, but he went to Ninja college and uses Ninja weapons and all the Ninja's agree he's a Ninja.

I agree with Krispy curently the dragon has next to zero draconic traits apart from a breath weapon so if you want to call your "dragon" a manticore and give him a piercing breath weapon (quill attack) then go ahead. I find calling the "dragon" a manticore to less galling than calling it a Dragon.

Not true.

Quote:

Dragon Eidolon

Because dragons have a strong connection to magic,
their minds can often leave an echo floating in the
Astral Plane, extremely powerful but unable to interact
with the outside world on their own. Dragon eidolons
manifest in the powerful, scaled forms they had in life;
most take the form of true dragons (albeit smaller), but
some manifest as drakes or other draconic beings. You’ve
forged a connection with such a dragon eidolon, and
together, you’ll grow to the might of an ancient wyrm,
the mightiest of dragons.
Tradition arcane
Traits astral, dragon, eidolon, and one more (see Breath
Weapon below)
Home Plane Astral Plane
Size Medium
Melee [one-action] primary, Damage 1d8
Melee [one-action] secondary (agile), Damage 1d4
Suggested Attacks claw (slashing), jaws (piercing), horn
(piercing), tail (bludgeoning), wing (bludgeoning)
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills Arcana, Intimidation
Senses darkvision
Language Draconic
Speed 25 feet
Eidolon Abilities

They have the draconic language, they are arcane only, not primal, they have the DRAGON TRAIT which means it is immune to sleep and paralysis.

An elemental is

Quote:

Elementals are creatures directly tied to an element and native to the Elemental Planes. Elementals don’t need to breathe.

They innately get different traits.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

I dislike pregens for a reason, and playing a summoner makes me feel like I am playing a pregen. It's just not okay. Give us our crunch.

We're not getting build-a-bear pick-a-point Evolutions and Eidolons back.

We have Frames (that might have sub-frames) that we can modify with feats.

There's a way to do "build-a-bear" without being utterly broken, Rysky. AND without the point system. I already explained a way to do it.

Choose creature type (From all available types)
Choose 3 available attack types
1d8 (b/p/s)
1d6 (energy type acid, fire, cold, etc)
1d4 (agile b/p/s)
Optional - Weakness 1/2 level to b/p/s or energy types + resistance 1/2 level to b/p/s or energy types. Pick two of the options. One is a weakness, the other a resistance.

level 1) Pick 1 ability from a list

level 5) Pick 1 ability from a list

level 10) Pick 1 ability from a list

level 15) Pick 1 ability from a list

level 20) Pick 1 ability from a list

This is INFINITELY better than what we have right now.

You wanting it, does not automatically make it better.

I foresee Frames (and hopefully sub-frames) and Feats, not pick-a-point nor pick-a-list, outside of specific feats.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

The above is a feature, not a bug.

No. It actually isn't a feature dude. The game literally tells you, " YOU HAVE A DRAGON" You can't just claim it's an elemental. If you do, you're violating the rules of the game.

Ahem

Not nearly the same thing. What if I don't want a magma dragon? What if I wanted shiva from FF series with an ice breath?

Then go play Final Fantasy.

Less sarcastic response: Pathfinder is not, and never was, "Directly copy this specific character from a different media", it's always been about building characters within the Pathfinder parameters.

So what's wrong with me wanting the capabilities of creating an Eidolon like with the same FLAVOR as the ORIGINAL Eidolon in the APG?

That was within the pathfinder parameters, was it not?

The original Eidolon had no flavor, that's the entire point.

[Verzen]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

The above is a feature, not a bug.

No. It actually isn't a feature dude. The game literally tells you, " YOU HAVE A DRAGON" You can't just claim it's an elemental. If you do, you're violating the rules of the game.

Ahem

Not nearly the same thing. What if I don't want a magma dragon? What if I wanted shiva from FF series with an ice breath?

Then go play Final Fantasy.

Less sarcastic response: Pathfinder is not, and never was, "Directly copy this specific character from a different media", it's always been about building characters within the Pathfinder parameters.

So what's wrong with me wanting the capabilities of creating an Eidolon like with the same FLAVOR as the ORIGINAL Eidolon in the APG?

That was within the pathfinder parameters, was it not?

The original Eidolon had no flavor, that's the entire point.

At least I could design it however I wanted to design it rather than paizo telling me, "You must only have an angel, a beast, a dragon, or a phantom. Can't be anything else!"

[OrochiFuror]

Your crunch options are going to be your evolution feats you choose, so why not suggest some ideas in the appropriate thread. We can build on that to come to an idea of how many an Eidolon focused summoner should maybe have to start with to get the ball rolling on making your ideal creation.

Biggest strength so far is theme, and I think that's why people are so passionate about it. It has a good foundation with the idea that it can be built up very high, but without any walls it's easy to see why some people are afraid the roof is going to be too low to fit their fantasy within.

[Pronate11]

Verzen wrote:

Quote:

So yeah. Make it as outlandish as you want. Just use the base stats for one of the existing types.

Sorry. No. You are essentially saying, "Oh just use your imagination." Sorry but I am a mechanics person. Not an "imagination" person.

bruh, this is a fantasy elf game. Imagination is required. Do you want paizo to clone your very own eidolon so you don't have to imagine it? It takes no effort to say it's something slightly different.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

At least I could design it however I wanted to design it rather than paizo telling me, "You must only have an angel, a beast, a dragon, or a phantom. Can't be anything else!"

Way to be disingenuous, Paizo hasn't said that at all.

We have a sampling of options for the purposes of playtesting, there's going to be more in the final, there's most likely going to be more released in later books as well.

[BACE]

Verzen wrote:

They have the draconic language, they are arcane only, not primal, they have the DRAGON TRAIT which means it is immune to sleep and paralysis.

Lol dude, the dragon trait doesn't mean that at all. It's literally just a marker so they can have things that affect "dragons" specifically. The dragon trait has no inherent rules baggage. Here's the dragon trait:

Quote:

Dragons are reptilian creatures, often winged or with the power of flight. Most are able to use a breath weapon and are immune to sleep and paralysis.

See here

Most are immune to sleep and paralysis. It's setting expectations, not giving you rules. As it stands now, the dragon eidolon is immune to neither of those things.

[Verzen]

OrochiFuror wrote:

Your crunch options are going to be your evolution feats you choose, so why not suggest some ideas in the appropriate thread. We can build on that to come to an idea of how many an Eidolon focused summoner should maybe have to start with to get the ball rolling on making your ideal creation.

Biggest strength so far is theme, and I think that's why people are so passionate about it. It has a good foundation with the idea that it can be built up very high, but without any walls it's easy to see why some people are afraid the roof is going to be too low to fit their fantasy within.

Quote:

Your crunch options are going to be your evolution feats you choose

So I get ZERO customization at level 1? That doesn't feel good at all.

My Eidolon is the same as everyone elses? That doesn't feel good at all.

[Verzen]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

At least I could design it however I wanted to design it rather than paizo telling me, "You must only have an angel, a beast, a dragon, or a phantom. Can't be anything else!"

Way to be disingenuous, Paizo hasn't said that at all.

We have a sampling of options for the purposes of playtesting, there's going to be more in the final, there's most likely going to be more released in later books as well.

Doesn't matter how many limited choices they supply. It will still be limited.

It's better to just rip off the band aid and open it up to be more customizable.

[Verzen]

What if I created a TTRPG and said, "You have choices to play. You can either play as the cleric pregen, the fighter pregen, the wizard pregen or the rogue pregen. Those are choices! That's your customization!"

It wouldn't feel good, would it? I play PF because of the crunch and right now Eidolon has none.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

OrochiFuror wrote:

Your crunch options are going to be your evolution feats you choose, so why not suggest some ideas in the appropriate thread. We can build on that to come to an idea of how many an Eidolon focused summoner should maybe have to start with to get the ball rolling on making your ideal creation.

Biggest strength so far is theme, and I think that's why people are so passionate about it. It has a good foundation with the idea that it can be built up very high, but without any walls it's easy to see why some people are afraid the roof is going to be too low to fit their fantasy within.

Quote:

Your crunch options are going to be your evolution feats you choose

So I get ZERO customization at level 1? That doesn't feel good at all.

My Eidolon is the same as everyone elses? That doesn't feel good at all.

You get plenty of customization in how they appear, mechanic wise they'll function similar to all other Eidolons of that same type, just like all Level 1 Barbarians of the same Instinct will function similarly.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

My Eidolon is the same as everyone elses? That doesn't feel good at all.

We're arguing in circles here.

Many people do not agree that your Eidolon, regardless of what base type you chose, what stats it has, etc. is the same as anyone elses Eidolon.

It has a unique name, description, backstory, attacks, etc.

It also has a different skillset, which is unique for each Eidolon based on their summoner - which means it varies based on the Summoners Ancestry and Background.

My Eidolon may have Circus Lore, and yours may be a Merchant.

No two Eidolons are remotely similar, but you simply aren't acknowledging the differences. You're pretending like they don't matter, when they do.

I can build a hundred different Eidolons at level 1 with just the Angel type, and have fun with them.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

At least I could design it however I wanted to design it rather than paizo telling me, "You must only have an angel, a beast, a dragon, or a phantom. Can't be anything else!"

Way to be disingenuous, Paizo hasn't said that at all.

We have a sampling of options for the purposes of playtesting, there's going to be more in the final, there's most likely going to be more released in later books as well.

Doesn't matter how many limited choices they supply. It will still be limited.

It's better to just rip off the band aid and open it up to be more customizable.

It's not a bandaid, it's not a wound, it's not a negative that you use Frames when building the Eidolon.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

What if I created a TTRPG and said, "You have choices to play. You can either play as the cleric pregen, the fighter pregen, the wizard pregen or the rogue pregen. Those are choices! That's your customization!"

It wouldn't feel good, would it? I play PF because of the crunch and right now Eidolon has none.

It would depend on how you actually presented the system and how it was built, and not this mockery you're intentionally torpedoing your statement with.

I play Pathfinder because I like both the flavor and crunch, I moved with P2 because I prefer its crunch more.

[Verzen]

BACE wrote:

Verzen wrote:

They have the draconic language, they are arcane only, not primal, they have the DRAGON TRAIT which means it is immune to sleep and paralysis.

Lol dude, the dragon trait doesn't mean that at all. It's literally just a marker so they can have things that affect "dragons" specifically. The dragon trait has no inherent rules baggage. Here's the dragon trait:

Quote:

Dragons are reptilian creatures, often winged or with the power of flight. Most are able to use a breath weapon and are immune to sleep and paralysis.

See here

Most are immune to sleep and paralysis. It's setting expectations, not giving you rules. As it stands now, the dragon eidolon is immune to neither of those things.

Most are able to use BREATH weapons. It doesn't say most are immune to sleep and paralysis.

[Rysky]

Verzen wrote:

BACE wrote:

Verzen wrote:

They have the draconic language, they are arcane only, not primal, they have the DRAGON TRAIT which means it is immune to sleep and paralysis.

Lol dude, the dragon trait doesn't mean that at all. It's literally just a marker so they can have things that affect "dragons" specifically. The dragon trait has no inherent rules baggage. Here's the dragon trait:

Quote:

Dragons are reptilian creatures, often winged or with the power of flight. Most are able to use a breath weapon and are immune to sleep and paralysis.

See here

Most are immune to sleep and paralysis. It's setting expectations, not giving you rules. As it stands now, the dragon eidolon is immune to neither of those things.

Most are able to use BREATH weapons. It doesn't say most are immune to sleep and paralysis.

Dragon Trait wrote:

Dragons are reptilian creatures, often winged or with the power of flight. Most are able to use a breath weapon and are immune to sleep and paralysis.

Saying they are Immune is an assumption.

[Pronate11]

Verzen wrote:

What if I created a TTRPG and said, "You have choices to play. You can either play as the cleric pregen, the fighter pregen, the wizard pregen or the rogue pregen. Those are choices! That's your customization!"

It wouldn't feel good, would it? I play PF because of the crunch and right now Eidolon has none.

Limitations breed creativity. Why should we have classes, two fighters are going to feel the same at level one. why have ancestries, They limit how you look. There are point based systems out there if you want full customization, but they offer little inspiration, while PF2 provides it in spades. you have a very specific idea, great, point systems give it to you. But most people have general ideas that are shaped by the system into something greater.

[Rysky]

Rysky wrote:

Verzen wrote:

BACE wrote:

Verzen wrote:

They have the draconic language, they are arcane only, not primal, they have the DRAGON TRAIT which means it is immune to sleep and paralysis.

Lol dude, the dragon trait doesn't mean that at all. It's literally just a marker so they can have things that affect "dragons" specifically. The dragon trait has no inherent rules baggage. Here's the dragon trait:

Quote:

Dragons are reptilian creatures, often winged or with the power of flight. Most are able to use a breath weapon and are immune to sleep and paralysis.

See here

Most are immune to sleep and paralysis. It's setting expectations, not giving you rules. As it stands now, the dragon eidolon is immune to neither of those things.

Most are able to use BREATH weapons. It doesn't say most are immune to sleep and paralysis.

Dragon Trait wrote:

Dragons are reptilian creatures, often winged or with the power of flight. Most are able to use a breath weapon and are immune to sleep and paralysis.

Saying they are Immune is an assumption.

I just went and double checked, Dragon Bestiary entries list their immunities in their statblock.

Dragon Eidolons do not have those immunities listed in their statblock, they do not gain them just because they have the Dragon Trait.

[Verzen]

So is it even a 'dragon' if we don't even get dragon traits either? No. It's just a normal, boring human if they dont even get their racial traits.