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So, in general I'm against giving Eidolons everyone elses toys and allowing them to be monster Barbarians, or Fighters or Monks or what have you.
But then I remembered, wait, anyone can get most of that stuff via Multiclassing anyway. Anyone can already steal Rage, or Inspire Courage, etc. via multiclassing! That's not unique to anyone!
So uh yeah, we could totally use the multiclass and archetype availability levels as a benchmark for making abilities to Eidolons.
...so, yeah, all aboard for giving Eidolons cool stuff at approximately the same level anyonr else could take it via multiclassing, with essentially the same restrictions.
Raging, Hunt Preying, Spellcasting Eidolons with more than two slots - seriously, why not? Anyone with literally zero class features could accomplish that via multiclassing anyway.
Magical Evolution could probably be a four feat chain that follows the progression for Spellcaster dedication, Basic Spellcasting, Expert, and Master regarding spell slots. Add in breadth too.
I dont see how this actually could be broken, if its using claa feat resources.
Anything I'm missing with using "Multiclass Equivalent" as a reasonable and desired standard?
Mark, if you read this - is there some developer side reason a Eidolon shouldn't be able to pick up something like full Multiclass Spellcasting progression thag I am missing? If I'm spending class feats on these resources and I'm literally comparing multiclass wizard and magical evolution, shouldn't they be roughly equivalent in effect?
I get that currently the investment for magical evolution is lower (and the spells scale slightly better), but would something like Spellcasting Breadth (+ lower level spell slots) be reasonable?
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I suppose I'm more talking about using these as benchmarks for when abilities become available. For example, anyone can get Rage at level 2, so -
Furious Evolution - Summoner 2 - Your Eidolon gets the Rage action.
Seems good.
Other examples would be -
Hunters Evolution - Summoner 2 - Your Eidolon gains Hunt Prey.
Healing Evolution - Summoner 2 - Requires Good alignment, Your Eidolon gains Lay on Hands focus spell using your focus points.
Opportunistic Evolution - Summoner 8 (one tier after other martials) - Your Eidolon gains Attack of Opportunity.
Etc.
Allowing them direct access to all Archetypes may have unintended, or unpredictable consequences.
Saying, "Anyone could get this via archetypes at level X anyway." Is a great way to gage when abilities can be available via evolutions.
Mark, if you read this - is there some developer side reason a Eidolon shouldn't be able to pick up something like full Multiclass Spellcasting progression thag I am missing? If I'm spending class feats on these resources and I'm literally comparing multiclass wizard and magical evolution, shouldn't they be roughly equivalent in effect?
That kinda let you get two or more dedications without having to take 3 feats, but beside that, I don't see why an Eidolon shouldn't be able to pick up something like that...
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Oooh, I'm totally on board with this idea.
Giving an Eidolon Multiclass Feats should probably be an option rather than a requirement, since it's a bit trickier for new players, but it's a really good idea as an option, especially if they got a minor advantage starting out (a Summoner Feat to grant one Multiclass Dedication plus a single other Multiclass Feat in the same archetype seems possible, for example, since Multiclass Dedications are often a little weak in isolation, and often even worse for the Eidolon).
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Excellent idea and a great way to make the Summoner really different from other classes.
My take on it : give the Summoner a 1st level Class feature that allows them, on selecting an Archetype Dedication, to decide whether all feats of that Dedication will benefit themselves or their Eidolon.
After all, they are the same character.
Possible names for the ability : 2 beings, 1 soul ; Merged Soul...
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If you want to allow an Eidolon use your feat to take an archetype it would qualify for, that sounds pretty cool. If you want to allow the Summoner themselves to be able to take a different dedication without having the Eidolon having their Archetype closed up, you could perhaps require the Eidolon to have taken at least 1 feat from its chain, before the Summoner gets to take their Dedication. Interesting question, would you allow the Summoner and Eidolon to take the same Archetype, and would they get any special benefit by doing so?
However, yes, using multiclass abilities as a potential benchmark of acceptable abilities you can give Eidolons (or even other monsters) is a fantastic general idea.
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How about let you archetype/dedication feats apply to the eidolon?
Want a weapon Eidolon? Take fighter dedication
Armored? Champion dedication
Caster? Wizard/Bard/Cleric/druid etc dedication
We can add an every other level a free archetype to the Eidolon and let the summoner invest feats on summoner feat chains.
If that happens, some things that I would like to be added to the summoner list is to enable a Eidolon to use her BEST proficiency in a weapon or armor to any weapon or amor that he has proficiency.
Free Archetype rules for the Eidolon?
Free Archetype rules for the Eidolon?Probably not for complexity reasons. It'd be a really cool idea otherwise, though...
It wouldn't have to be the full number of feats, but I was more thinking along with Angel and Dragon we have Ancestor where the abilities are Multiclass feats and/or the ability to spend your summoner feats on those feats for the Eidolon.
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Free Archetype rules for the Eidolon?Probably not for complexity reasons. It'd be a really cool idea otherwise, though...
This is mostly why I think ultimately, using Multiclass stuff as solid benchmarks is the way to go.
Go grab the iconic, visceral and fun stuff (Rage, Sneak attack, and Hunt Prey, Power Attack and Double Slice, Spellcasting), curate it, and include it as evolution options.
Proper archetypes for Eidolons are probably beyond the complexity threshold they want for the class... but they're a gold mine for adding cool and flavorful actions and abilities that people want.
And, because theyre already presumably balanced where they're available via multiclass, their inclusion is unlikely to break much if anything.
In theory, it allows them to print way more evolutions with less work and needed oversight and development - most of the work is already done.
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I kind of feel the eidolon should get assess to the be benefits of most of the feats the summoner can pick up. I want my eidolon to be able to scare his enemies to death and cloud jump.
Yeah, I mentioned elsewhere that at the minimum, I think an action (as a tax) to share skill feats (I called it "lend Expertise") would be extremely desirable.
In that version, the tax exists to reduce concerns about being an onni-stat skill monkey.
May not be needed.
Yeah, I mentioned elsewhere that at the minimum, I think an action (as a tax) to share skill feats (I called it "lend Expertise") would be extremely desirable.
In that version, the tax exists to reduce concerns about being an onni-stat skill monkey.
I think the lower mental stats on the eidolon already put a crimp in any skill monkey issues. Add to that that what the eidolon would most want Acrobatics and Athletics [it's got to move around and maneuvers are more interesting than 'I Strike'] while the immobile Summoner wants Face skills.
One option would be to make a feat that allows the Summoner to apply an archetype feat to their eidolon. It would have to stipulate that the eidolon needs to fulfill all requirements for the feat (with maybe a few exceptions if there's something they could never fulfill), and make it something that can be taken multiple times for a different archetype each time....
Or if it's a rule baked into the class, have it be that if the eidolon takes the feat, the eidolon has to fulfill the requirements, otherwise, well, they'd never be able to take some of the more martial multiclass feats unless the summoner took the stats for it.
If the eidolon got customizable stat lines, allowing archetypes would be cool.