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Basically thread title. 4 spells known total and you have to choose summon x feels extremely weird for the class called the Summoner.
Also funny that there's a sidebar about there being no 1st-level divine summoning spell, so summon celestial animals. Occult is good summoning like pugwampis and mites or whatever, that fits the undead phantasm of devotion theme perfectly fine though.
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Yeah, agree.
Especially with that sidebar, and especially with Summoners not having 10th level slots, I was really expecting to see a feat that gave them one scaling summon spell as an innate spell or something like that.
Can I mention again that Summoners not being able to cast 10th level summoning spells feels bad?
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Yeah, I think they should get either a Focus Spell summon, or a pool of maxed Summon spells ala Channel Divinity on a Cleric. Either could then max out at 10th level.
It's a fairly minor issue balance-wise, but a huge quality of life improvement.
Yeah something that gives them the ability to summon without using precious limited spell slots,, which I think would also relieve some of the pressure on those slots.
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Where does it say you have to take Summon spells?
They go out of their way to say "Right now there’s no 1st-level divine summoning spell. For the purposes of this playtest, if you choose an angel eidolon, add summon animal to the divine spell list."
So they are going out of their way to add a summon spell to pad out a tradition for the playtest: it sure seems to imply they expect a summoner to use summon spells. In addition, there are two feats that only work with summoned creatures and one that can work with them. So not forced, but nor using them means some options are off the table.
And the need to Sustain a Spell to keep a summon on the field will be crushing given the tight action economy of the shared actions rule.
First round:
Three action summon -> Automatic sustainEidolon gets a free strike, and the enemy is flat-footed if the summon isn't already in flank
~Summon:
Strikes, Strikes
Any other turns after:
Boost Eidolon
Act Together -- Sustain; Eidolon Strides or Strikes
Eidolon Strikes
~Summon:
Stride/Strike x2
I don't exactly view this as crushing?
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Basically thread title. 4 spells known total and you have to choose summon x feels extremely weird for the class called the Summoner.
It's for exactly this reason that I supported the idea of changing the name of the class to something like "binder" or "invoker." The focus of the class should be on the unique nature of the eidolon. That's the cool, unique thing summoners bring to the table, not their ability to constantly summon minions. Those two class features always felt very disconnected.
I like the idea of there being feats that make summoning creatures better to appeal to players who like that playstyle. I don't like the idea of summoners getting extra access to summon spells just because it's in the name.
i mean your eidolon is better at attacking then any summon and youd share map across them so if you did summon their purpose would be? i hope they have non map options to perform that make them a target.
i mean your eidolon is better at attacking then any summon and youd share map across them so if you did summon their purpose would be?
DISTRACTING SUMMON SPELL: free strike and flatfooted from eidolon
OSTENTATIOUS ARRIVAL: 1d4/level 10' explosion
BOOST SUMMONS: BOOST EIDOLON buff works on summoned creatures too.
So they can set up some pretty nice teamwork with your eidolon and can work as an area attack too. It is something that looks like it's be fun to build around.
i mean your eidolon is better at attacking then any summon and youd share map across them so if you did summon their purpose would be?DISTRACTING SUMMON SPELL: free strike and flatfooted from eidolon
OSTENTATIOUS ARRIVAL: 1d4/level 10' explosion
BOOST SUMMONS: BOOST EIDOLON buff works on summoned creatures too.
So they can set up some pretty nice teamwork with your eidolon and can work as an area attack too. It is something that looks like it's be fun to build around.
the point of boost summons is???
your summon with have less chance to hit and do less damage than your eidolon, but your summon and your eidolon and you will all share map, so the point of this feat is?
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your summon with have less chance to hit and do less damage than your eidolon, but your summon and your eidolon and you will all share map, so the point of this feat is?
Where does your Summon pick up your MAP from?
Where does it say you have to take Summon spells?You don't, but then you don't get to summon things. Which, given the name of the Class, rubs some people the wrong way.
You are summoning the Eidolon.
If you want to also summon other things, sure. But the primary focus of the class is summoning that Eidolon.
And if you have feats that affect your Eidolon, having them also affect other spell-summoned things is a nice added bonus on the off chance that you decide to not manifest your Eidolon and instead summon something to go on a suicide mission. You can't send you Eidolon on a suicide mission (well, I guess you could. But it may not have the result that you wanted).
your summon with have less chance to hit and do less damage than your eidolon, but your summon and your eidolon and you will all share map, so the point of this feat is?Where does your Summon pick up your MAP from?
if they dont work like animal companions then thats my bad, i havent had to summon anything in 2e yet.
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Yeah, I think they should get either a Focus Spell summon, or a pool of maxed Summon spells ala Channel Divinity on a Cleric. Either could then max out at 10th level.
It's a fairly minor issue balance-wise, but a huge quality of life improvement.
"When you prepare your spells each day, you can prepare additional summon spells depending on the tradition of your eidolon... The number of slots is equal to your 1 plus your Constitution modifier."
Not sure how to word the legal-ese of which summon should be allowed, but just getting one and then upgrading it along would be fantastic.
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if they dont work like animal companions then thats my bad, i havent had to summon anything in 2e yet.your summon with have less chance to hit and do less damage than your eidolon, but your summon and your eidolon and you will all share map, so the point of this feat is?Where does your Summon pick up your MAP from?
Where do you get that Animal Companions share MAP?
I'm hoping I'm providing you with good news here, because I'm pretty sure thats not the case either.
if they dont work like animal companions then thats my bad, i havent had to summon anything in 2e yet.your summon with have less chance to hit and do less damage than your eidolon, but your summon and your eidolon and you will all share map, so the point of this feat is?Where does your Summon pick up your MAP from?Where do you get that Animal Companions share MAP?
I'm hoping I'm providing you with good news here, because I'm pretty sure thats not the case either.
lol you may be, ill go do some research.
the point of boost summons is???
It means that BOOST EIDOLON increases the damage both your summoned creature and your Eidolon does. It's not amazing or anything but is you plan to summon anyway, it's a bonus. It's competing vs transpose and protecting bond so I don't think anyone would ever take it as those ARE awesome.
your summon with have less chance to hit and do less damage than your eidolon, but your summon and your eidolon and you will all share map, so the point of this feat is?
Neither Summoned or Minion say that they share MAP's so I'm not sure what that's about. So spend an action for 2 Summoned creature attacks and your Eidolon can make 2 attacks at normal MAP's: on top of that, you summon it into flank for flatfooted bonuses making MAP better.
SO you summon for better MAP's for both Summoned and Eidolon and 2 attacks each.
EDIT: Ninja'd a bit. ;)
It would need to be some kind of innate spell for that. As a focus spell it would manage to break stuff with spellcasting summons, specially Fey, Celestial and Fiend that have a lot of option of innate spells, that makes more difference in the exploration mode though, bits something to keep in mind.
I don't see the problem with current Summon spells with Repertoire with 4 slots, with Feat support these will be powerful, and having 1 of 4 repertoire used on Summon spells seems fine considering they are all Signature Spells. Not to mention you can use Staff for more castings, or even Caster Multiclass Slots if you want. If you don't want to use Summon spells then you don't have to (or just keep a scroll/wand or 2), freeing up your Feats and Spells for other stuff.
I like the 4 slot system as somewhat of compromise in between full caster slots and focus spells... Something you cast once or twice per combat like focus spells, but alot broader scope while still being max level (or max -1) like focus spells. Actually the gap I see is not Summons spells, but how few real Focus spells there are that actually use Focus points, it's hard to see the reason why people need or want the multi-point Recovery Feats right now. Interesting dynamic to have 4 slots and Focus side by side when they are somewhat similar to begin with.
Yeah, agree.
Especially with that sidebar, and especially with Summoners not having 10th level slots, I was really expecting to see a feat that gave them one scaling summon spell as an innate spell or something like that.
Can I mention again that Summoners not being able to cast 10th level summoning spells feels bad?
It would be nice if they had a Master Summoner option with extra spell slots like the cleric has heals just for summoning.
they share if you mount them, cause that's a general rule of mounted combat, but apart from that, they don't.if they dont work like animal companions then thats my bad, i havent had to summon anything in 2e yet.your summon with have less chance to hit and do less damage than your eidolon, but your summon and your eidolon and you will all share map, so the point of this feat is?Where does your Summon pick up your MAP from?Where do you get that Animal Companions share MAP?
I'm hoping I'm providing you with good news here, because I'm pretty sure thats not the case either.
That was probably where my error occurred.
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"Crushing" was too strong. But the eidolon is generally going to be more useful to you than your summon. And here you are limiting your eidolon to one action in the first round and two actions in subsequent rounds--which also limits the utility of special eidolon abilities that require more than one action. (Also, when I wrote that post I hadn't yet noticed the Distracting Summon feat, so my bad on that.)First round:
Three action summon -> Automatic sustain
Eidolon gets a free strike, and the enemy is flat-footed if the summon isn't already in flank
~Summon:
Strikes, StrikesAny other turns after:
Boost Eidolon
Act Together -- Sustain; Eidolon Strides or Strikes
Eidolon Strikes
~Summon:
Stride/Strike x2I don't exactly view this as crushing?
Generally speaking I view summoning as a way of putting more HP and easier targets on the field for monsters.
It's one of the things that alleviates the Summoner's dual-body-one-hp-pool problem. Remember, monsters don't know what summoning is, don't understand why there's a celestial goat here now but they do realize it's attacking them. If they swing they notice it has low AC, and now their attacks might be spent brutalizing this poor elysian goat instead of my eidolon or any other party members.
I imagine a lot of the two-action eidolon moves are going to be first-round moves either way. The Beast eidolon suffers most from this as they want to use their charge to dive in, but then you're not likely to go the full 50+ feet if you don't want your eidolon flanked, surrounded and beaten down. So they're probably in range for the summon on turn 2.
Having an extra body on the field no one has to heal up after the battle is just a good way to soak some damage.
I don't know, I see the point but it leaves you on round 2 with an eidolon that has engaged the enemy but is limited to a single Strike and no moves. And you can't use an action to boost its damage or defenses.
I see what you're talking about here, but do remember that it's a cooperative game. There will also be a fighter, rogue and cleric on the front lines with your Eidolon + summon. Could the enemy turn around and wreck your Eidolon? Sure. That's particularly troubling vs a single strong enemy. But versus a squad of enemies, less of a problem - the enemy squad will likely be out of position to focus down your Eidolon, they'll have to deal with the other 4 creatures that are in their face.
Summoning is not the be-all-end-all, it is simply a tool in the box. Often it won't be your best option, but sometimes it might be. I wouldn't build my whole character around it, but it's nice that Summoner has some good feats to support it if the player wants to go that route.