| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
its only extra damage if its something you can do on top of the things you are already planning to do.instead its something you do instead of the other things to keep your eidolon damage below par.
you could remove it, or bake it into the class, without imbalancing a single thing, but opening up the summoners round to round activities hugely, resulting in more varied and interesting gameplay for the class.
example: the fighter feat where you do more damage to a frightened target, that is *extra* damage when you are a intimidating strike build.
boost eidolon is a required action tax.
What do you mean by "to keep your Eidolon damage below par"?
If this is about the 18 in main stat and the Apex item, listen; i agree that the Eidolon should get 18 and benefit from Apex, but i don't know what you're comparing the Eidolon to when you say without Boost Eidolon it's damage is below par.
Summoner has the choice to boost it's Eidolon's damage even further, it's almost like the Summoner uses 1 action to give the Eidolon some Rage damage, it's pretty good.
You can always just not do so and uses the Summoner action for something else like casting a spell.
I don't agree that Boost Eidolon is a feat tax, we're trying to get the Eidolon to compete in the same space as most martials, not a Fighter.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
PF1 Summoner had feats that supported eidolons. They had traits that supported eidolons. They had the 10 feats that could be used for anything from supporting summoned spells (aka eidolon) to making themselves better. Saying that Summoners didnt have class feats is a blatant lie.There was feats that affected Eidolons and summoning, but Summoner did not have Class Feats, Fighter had Class Feats. Summoner's class gave them no feats, they had to use their General that all Characters got.
I never said my opinions were universal facts. So I dont see how me having opinions on what I see as critical is bad.When you're claiming Eidolons are noncreatures and don't have abilities it's not really an opinion anymore.
Eidolons are a non creature. Do they have their own actions/reactions? No. Do they have their own abilities? No. Do they have their own HP? No. PF2 has made eidolons into noncreatures.
They do indeed have their own abilities, so quit lying about that.
Secondly, not having Reactions or their own health bar is irrelevant, they are in fact a separate creature with their own mind. That's an odd set of wyckets to use to declare something non-existent.
PF1 Eidolons Had 8 feats, 15 evolution points, and at least 6 tiers of subtype upgrades. PF1 Summoners had 10 feats, Summon Monster SLA == 3+Cha, all the class abilities, and 6th level spells. Yes I dont expect them to have everything, but eidolon needs to keep their evolutions otherwise they are not eidolons.Being a creature bound to the Summoner is what makes the Eidolon an Eidolon, not being a build-a-bear.Silly Eidolons do not break lore. You might not like them but they did not break lore.
Point out where in Golarion a monster made of butts that shoots breath weapons from its anal cavities is in the Lore.
And no, "I could build it using the APG Summoner!" is not Lore.
What do you mean that the lore did not match the God Callers when the lore were was made post summoner.That's the entire point. Summoner had no lore till then.
The creator of the God Callers had access to the summoner lore and made the God Callers from there.Yes, and the Godcallers and their Eidolons are very specific in form and function from what we've seen of them.
Not to mention that the great beauty of PF1 Summoner was that PF1 let GMs create the specific lore behind summoners. So two different tables could have completely different theories behind the Eidolons and both would still be correct.And here you're admitting they had no lore.
Make up your mind, they have no mechanics or you don't like their mechanics.
And as currently done Eidolons have no mechanics. Their only mechanic are 3 meh abilities that are boring and non customizable.
Eidolons in this editions are more blobs of stats than any eidolon in PF1. Despite all the misinformation you try to spout about them.
Stop projecting, you're the one lying saying they're non-creatures and have no abilities. Those are things you've outright said.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
its only extra damage if its something you can do on top of the things you are already planning to do.instead its something you do instead of the other things to keep your eidolon damage below par.
you could remove it, or bake it into the class, without imbalancing a single thing, but opening up the summoners round to round activities hugely, resulting in more varied and interesting gameplay for the class.
example: the fighter feat where you do more damage to a frightened target, that is *extra* damage when you are a intimidating strike build.
boost eidolon is a required action tax.
What do you mean by "to keep your Eidolon damage below par"?
If this is about the 18 in main stat and the Apex item, listen; i agree that the Eidolon should get 18 and benefit from Apex, but i don't know what you're comparing the Eidolon to when you say without Boost Eidolon it's damage is below par.
Summoner has the choice to boost it's Eidolon's damage even further, it's almost like the Summoner uses 1 action to give the Eidolon some Rage damage, it's pretty good.
You can always just not do so and uses the Summoner action for something else like casting a spell.I don't agree that Boost Eidolon is a feat tax, we're trying to get the Eidolon to compete in the same space as most martials, not a Fighter.
they dont even compete in the same space as a monk in terms of dpr while having none of its benefits.
boost is an issue, and it makes the summoner unfun and uninteresting to play. its just a stat stick that you are taxed on. eliminating the interesting benefit of having a weaker base class with better action economy to compensate. the boost doesnt even put them on par, so when not using it you are even more underperforming.
there is no valid reason for boost, balance or otherwise, as removing it does nothing but improve the summoner without overpowering it.
If this is about the 18 in main stat and the Apex item, listen; i agree that the Eidolon should get 18 and benefit from Apex
I dont think I've seen anyone disagree on this particular point, in fact.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My 1e apg eidolons were - a knight, a ball of lightning that can take humanoid shape, goro from MK, a centaur. Whats so wrong with me having those shapes?
All of these are doable with the options we’ll have. Most of them with Playtest options, even.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So just because immature people are playing your campaigns means you need to ruin the fun for serious pathfinders? My 1e apg eidolons were - a knight, a ball of lightning that can take humanoid shape, goro from MK, a centaur. Whats so wrong with me having those shapes?All the games people played with summoners are part of the lore.No they're not.One of the key parts of PF2 was being able to tell the same stories. Guess what you are preventing me from telling the same stories. Meanwhile, what I want does not prevent you from telling your stories.Having Eidolons be whatever out of left field is much lore destroying and preventative for storytelling as it supposedly enables.
Summoners and Eidolons still exist though so you can indeed tell the same stories, stories that supposedly can't be told from Unchained to the Playtest are exceedingly niche upon niche I'd say.
Also silly and ridiculus eidolons are part of what made the class fun to play. Any GM that banned summoner because of silly or ridiculous eidolons is a bad GM in my book.Sorry that you think I'm a bad GM for not allowing an Eidolon composed of nothing but butts firing breath attacks from its anal cavities in my game.Paizo straight up preventing me from making those eidolons would ruing the entire fun of the class.Aside form having fewer types in the playtest (in order to playtest) I'm not seeing much difference from the eidolon allowance between Unchained and now.
Sorry, I chuckled a bit at “serious pathfinders” for some reason.
As for the dinguses, they were as much a symptom as they were the issue. Having unrestrained build-a-bear-pick-a-point Eidolons were a bad idea and didn’t fit with the setting, which is a big reason Paizo changed them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is not my suggestion but something that came from another poster and i'd like to hear your thoughts.
"Just give the Synth bonus evolutions at 1/5/9/13/17, the "Duo" that focuses on tandem stuff bonus tandem feats at 1/5/9/13/17, and the master summoner bonus summoning-related feats at 1/5/9/13/17. Boom, done"
So the way this would function would be based on something like class archetypes of subclasses.
Whereby a division of power is attributed differently.
(Power Total: 4)
Regular Summoner
Power: 2/2 Equal
Synthesist Summoner
Power: 1/3 Leaning toward Eidolon
Master Summoner
Power: 3/1 Leaning toward Summoner
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That would grant the class 5 extra class feat slots. That's a lot. The only class that gets additional class feats is the Fighter, and they get two.
Subclass feats at 1st level are fine, but the class already sort of has subclasses in selecting the eidolons.
It's interesting, but multiple extra class feats are too much.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Summoners most certainly had class feats. +1 evolution point along with the feat that if you went unconscious your Eidolon would stay up for a number of rounds. There were others.
They did not, there was feats that affected their abilities but their class did not give them any feats. You had to spend your general Character feats on them.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Barbarians dont need a boost every turn and they deal better damage.
its only extra damage if its something you can do on top of the things you are already planning to do.instead its something you do instead of the other things to keep your eidolon damage below par.
you could remove it, or bake it into the class, without imbalancing a single thing, but opening up the summoners round to round activities hugely, resulting in more varied and interesting gameplay for the class.
example: the fighter feat where you do more damage to a frightened target, that is *extra* damage when you are a intimidating strike build.
boost eidolon is a required action tax.
What do you mean by "to keep your Eidolon damage below par"?
If this is about the 18 in main stat and the Apex item, listen; i agree that the Eidolon should get 18 and benefit from Apex, but i don't know what you're comparing the Eidolon to when you say without Boost Eidolon it's damage is below par.
Summoner has the choice to boost it's Eidolon's damage even further, it's almost like the Summoner uses 1 action to give the Eidolon some Rage damage, it's pretty good.
You can always just not do so and uses the Summoner action for something else like casting a spell.I don't agree that Boost Eidolon is a feat tax, we're trying to get the Eidolon to compete in the same space as most martials, not a Fighter.
Barbarians deal better damage than everyone, that’s their thing.
I do have an idea for extra feats that is in line with what other classes get, though.
What if Eidolons just got some of their own skill feats? An extra skill feat that the Eidolon gains at 3, 7, 11, 15 and 19 would help eidolons specialize more in their skills, and give them a bit more customization and specialized power without remotely threatening to be broken.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Barbarians dont need a boost every turn and they deal better damage.
its only extra damage if its something you can do on top of the things you are already planning to do.instead its something you do instead of the other things to keep your eidolon damage below par.
you could remove it, or bake it into the class, without imbalancing a single thing, but opening up the summoners round to round activities hugely, resulting in more varied and interesting gameplay for the class.
example: the fighter feat where you do more damage to a frightened target, that is *extra* damage when you are a intimidating strike build.
boost eidolon is a required action tax.
What do you mean by "to keep your Eidolon damage below par"?
If this is about the 18 in main stat and the Apex item, listen; i agree that the Eidolon should get 18 and benefit from Apex, but i don't know what you're comparing the Eidolon to when you say without Boost Eidolon it's damage is below par.
Summoner has the choice to boost it's Eidolon's damage even further, it's almost like the Summoner uses 1 action to give the Eidolon some Rage damage, it's pretty good.
You can always just not do so and uses the Summoner action for something else like casting a spell.I don't agree that Boost Eidolon is a feat tax, we're trying to get the Eidolon to compete in the same space as most martials, not a Fighter.
every martial does better damage without the action tax vs the eidolon with the action tax
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Barbarians deal better damage than everyone, that’s their thing.
Yeah like, i feel there's a LOT of room in-between the worst damaging martial classes (Investigator) and the highest (Fighter/Barbarian)
I think Eidolons should be somewhere in-between that spectrum, i don't see any reason for Eidolons to do top-tier damage like a Barbarian or Fighter does.
My 1e apg eidolons were - a knight, a ball of lightning that can take humanoid shape, goro from MK, a centaur. Whats so wrong with me having those shapes?All of these are doable with the options we’ll have. Most of them with Playtest options, even.I dont think so. Can I have a burning treant with a 1d6 damage shield and fire breath ? No?
I'd like to design my own base.
I'm curious, given that I'm not terribly familiar with the original Summoner.
Was that possible at 1st level? A shield, with an attack, the plant trait (and presumably an ability that demonstrates that), and a breath weapon?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Uh no. I do not want another skill monkey class. We have two. Play a rogue or investigator. We do NOT have a monster tamer class. Let this be that.I do have an idea for extra feats that is in line with what other classes get, though.
What if Eidolons just got some of their own skill feats? An extra skill feat that the Eidolon gains at 3, 7, 11, 15 and 19 would help eidolons specialize more in their skills, and give them a bit more customization and specialized power without remotely threatening to be broken.
Yeah the Eidolon doesn't need more skill feats, it needs more in the way of customization and several people have proposed it getting more feats for the sake of evolutions.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What creature trait does our Eidolon have? What attacks? Any Energy attacks? Pick 2 or 3.
And what lvl 1 monster ability thats balanced? Pick 1. Also here is an array of dtats. Distribute as you wish. 18/16/14/12/10/8Then the evolutions can be feats for all i care after that. Just let me have a blank to work with.
While I agree the current evolution feats feel like big skips that could almost globally be buffed, and I agree with the stat spread idea, I don't feel like as many people are in opposition to these points as you're implying. These takes seem pretty common from what I've seen.
Energy attacks might be busted at Level 1 due to their feast or famine nature. Monster abilities are definitely broken at level 1, but I do support adding a means to get them at the same time Animal Companions get Advanced Maneuvers at latest, since many Maneuvers are just Monster Abilities.
If creature trait is really that much of a hangup for you, then that's a problem on your end. Traits don't imply anything about what the creature looks like, merely where it comes from. I'm currently building 4 Summoners for a Sim I plan to run. Angel Eidolon is going to be based on the biblical interpretation of Thrones (Literally a bunch of interlocking eye covered rings with wings) that will just be rolling over people. Dragon Eidolon is going to be Griffon from DMCV since the summoner is just a V reference, Medium-Sized feathered raven-"dragon" that shoots lightning. Devotion phantom is the ghost of my PF1 Cavalier, still bound by his duty as the Champion of the Open Road to guide an amnesiac version of another PF1 character I had in a quest to regain their lost memories after a ritual went wrong. Primal summoner is my Shykan Leshy's fourth and fifth iteration, as their mind slowly gets warped by repeated reincarnatiom by Shyka's fey magic into something more alien.
If you think a trait is in any way limiting, I don't really know what to tell you other than "no, it really isn't."
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My 1e apg eidolons were - a knight, a ball of lightning that can take humanoid shape, goro from MK, a centaur. Whats so wrong with me having those shapes?All of these are doable with the options we’ll have. Most of them with Playtest options, even.I dont think so. Can I have a burning treant with a 1d6 damage shield and fire breath ? No?
I'd like to design my own base.
I'm curious, given that I'm not terribly familiar with the original Summoner.
Was that possible at 1st level? A shield, with an attack, the plant trait (and presumably an ability that demonstrates that), and a breath weapon?
Yes with the Extra evolution feat, otherwise you had to wait to lv,2 but at lv.2 you could just do that.
Here is a link to 1e Summoner's Eidolon rules and evolutions.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So... basically the equivalent of going Human for Natural Ambition then.
Okay. That gives us a baseline that there should be some interesting evolutions as 1st level feats (an energy type in particular) that a human Summoner can grab.
Combined with the innate ability of the eidolon (for which there'll be a dozen options), that represents two interesting abilities at 1st level.
(Probably not breath weapon, but we can't have everything)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh god that's a lot of pointless minutiae abilities.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So... basically the equivalent of going Human for Natural Ambition then.
Okay. That gives us a baseline that there should be some interesting evolutions as 1st level feats (an energy type in particular) that a human Summoner can grab.
Combined with the innate ability of the eidolon (for which there'll be a dozen options), that represents two interesting abilities at 1st level.
(Probably not breath weapon, but we can't have everything)
Reach, Resistance, Scent, Energy Attacks, Flight, etc. are all notable evolutions a Summoner could choose for their Eidolon to have at lv.1
I understand why in 2e Flight should be delayed, but i don't think a lot of these are unreasonable for lv.1 access in 2e like Reach or Energy Attacks.
|
|
1st level? No. The ideas I have aren't possible at 1st level. And I don't think this should be either at 1st level. But that's the brilliance of recreating a class. Let's start off with a base... a treat that gets fire attacks rather than b s or p. They are 1d4+str rather than 1d8. Is that balanced? Yes. Then let us pick an ability.. say breath attack. Thsts also balanced. Dragons get it. So do kobolds. So let us have as much side grade customization as possible within reason. Snd id be happy.My 1e apg eidolons were - a knight, a ball of lightning that can take humanoid shape, goro from MK, a centaur. Whats so wrong with me having those shapes?All of these are doable with the options we’ll have. Most of them with Playtest options, even.I dont think so. Can I have a burning treant with a 1d6 damage shield and fire breath ? No?
I'd like to design my own base.
I'm curious, given that I'm not terribly familiar with the original Summoner.
Was that possible at 1st level? A shield, with an attack, the plant trait (and presumably an ability that demonstrates that), and a breath weapon?
Okay.
You pick Dragon Eidolon, and say that its spirit manifests by assimilating the nature around it during its first manifestation into a body. It chose a humanoid treant-like body. Done.
So... basically the equivalent of going Human for Natural Ambition then.
Okay. That gives us a baseline that there should be some interesting evolutions as 1st level feats (an energy type in particular) that a human Summoner can grab.
Combined with the innate ability of the eidolon (for which there'll be a dozen options), that represents two interesting abilities at 1st level.
(Probably not breath weapon, but we can't have everything)
Reach, Resistance, Scent, Energy Attacks, Flight, etc. are all notable evolutions a Summoner could choose for their Eidolon to have at lv.1
I understand why in 2e Flight should be delayed, but i don't think a lot of these are unreasonable for lv.1 access in 2e like Reach or Energy Attacks.
Based on when (and the two feat plus a stance cost) Fighters get to add reach to any attack they like, I don't see this happening at level 1. Gnome Flick Mace isn't a good comparison, as its something of an extreme exception to the base rules as it stands.
I think that people wanting Energy Attacks should consider that the most likely place for that to show up is in the Elemental base type, which is almost certainly going to be an option and almost certainly will cover this aspect...
With the way it looks like it go, we'd have that online by... 6th or 8th level?
Plant base (comes with the Primal List). NA Human to pick up ELEMENTAL STRIKES at 1st level.
We pick up the supporting cantrip at 2nd level to highlight their defensive nature.
At 4th level, Unarmed Evolution to we can Trip with our vines.
Breath weapon is probably a 6th level evolution in the best case scenario? I'd probably buff it to more than just Xd6 to make it worth the wait.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So... basically the equivalent of going Human for Natural Ambition then.
Okay. That gives us a baseline that there should be some interesting evolutions as 1st level feats (an energy type in particular) that a human Summoner can grab.
Combined with the innate ability of the eidolon (for which there'll be a dozen options), that represents two interesting abilities at 1st level.
(Probably not breath weapon, but we can't have everything)
Reach, Resistance, Scent, Energy Attacks, Flight, etc. are all notable evolutions a Summoner could choose for their Eidolon to have at lv.1
I understand why in 2e Flight should be delayed, but i don't think a lot of these are unreasonable for lv.1 access in 2e like Reach or Energy Attacks.
Based on when (and the two feat plus a stance cost) Fighters get to add reach to any attack they like, I don't see this happening at level 1. Gnome Flick Mace isn't a good comparison, as its something of an extreme exception to the base rules as it stands.
I think that people wanting Energy Attacks should consider that the most likely place for that to show up is in the Elemental base type, which is almost certainly going to be an option and almost certainly will cover this aspect...
its only certain if you know for a fact meaning you have a devs ear.
1st level? No. The ideas I have aren't possible at 1st level. And I don't think this should be either at 1st level. But that's the brilliance of recreating a class. Let's start off with a base... a treat that gets fire attacks rather than b s or p. They are 1d4+str rather than 1d8. Is that balanced? Yes. Then let us pick an ability.. say breath attack. Thsts also balanced. Dragons get it. So do kobolds. So let us have as much side grade customization as possible within reason. Snd id be happy.My 1e apg eidolons were - a knight, a ball of lightning that can take humanoid shape, goro from MK, a centaur. Whats so wrong with me having those shapes?All of these are doable with the options we’ll have. Most of them with Playtest options, even.I dont think so. Can I have a burning treant with a 1d6 damage shield and fire breath ? No?
I'd like to design my own base.
I'm curious, given that I'm not terribly familiar with the original Summoner.
Was that possible at 1st level? A shield, with an attack, the plant trait (and presumably an ability that demonstrates that), and a breath weapon?
Okay.
You pick Dragon Eidolon, and say that its spirit manifests by assimilating the nature around it during its first manifestation into a body. It chose a humanoid treant-like body. Done.
Hah! Imagine the sheer disdain a dragon spirit would have getting stuck looking like a tree. That’s excellent.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Based on when (and the two feat plus a stance cost) Fighters get to add reach to any attack they like, I don't see this happening at level 1. Gnome Flick Mace isn't a good comparison, as its something of an extreme exception to the base rules as it stands.I think that people wanting Energy Attacks should consider that the most likely place for that to show up is in the Elemental base type, which is almost certainly going to be an option and almost certainly will cover this aspect...
Idk if you know this buddy but fighters can just pick up any stick with the reach trait on it at lv.1; Eidolons can't
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
its only certain if you know for a fact meaning you have a devs ear.So... basically the equivalent of going Human for Natural Ambition then.
Okay. That gives us a baseline that there should be some interesting evolutions as 1st level feats (an energy type in particular) that a human Summoner can grab.
Combined with the innate ability of the eidolon (for which there'll be a dozen options), that represents two interesting abilities at 1st level.
(Probably not breath weapon, but we can't have everything)
Reach, Resistance, Scent, Energy Attacks, Flight, etc. are all notable evolutions a Summoner could choose for their Eidolon to have at lv.1
I understand why in 2e Flight should be delayed, but i don't think a lot of these are unreasonable for lv.1 access in 2e like Reach or Energy Attacks.
Based on when (and the two feat plus a stance cost) Fighters get to add reach to any attack they like, I don't see this happening at level 1. Gnome Flick Mace isn't a good comparison, as its something of an extreme exception to the base rules as it stands.
I think that people wanting Energy Attacks should consider that the most likely place for that to show up is in the Elemental base type, which is almost certainly going to be an option and almost certainly will cover this aspect...
Or, you know, if you’ve read the playtest document.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Uh no. Sorry the "just use your imagination " defense might work for 5e but not with me and not with a game based on crunch.1st level? No. The ideas I have aren't possible at 1st level. And I don't think this should be either at 1st level. But that's the brilliance of recreating a class. Let's start off with a base... a treat that gets fire attacks rather than b s or p. They are 1d4+str rather than 1d8. Is that balanced? Yes. Then let us pick an ability.. say breath attack. Thsts also balanced. Dragons get it. So do kobolds. So let us have as much side grade customization as possible within reason. Snd id be happy.My 1e apg eidolons were - a knight, a ball of lightning that can take humanoid shape, goro from MK, a centaur. Whats so wrong with me having those shapes?All of these are doable with the options we’ll have. Most of them with Playtest options, even.I dont think so. Can I have a burning treant with a 1d6 damage shield and fire breath ? No?
I'd like to design my own base.
I'm curious, given that I'm not terribly familiar with the original Summoner.
Was that possible at 1st level? A shield, with an attack, the plant trait (and presumably an ability that demonstrates that), and a breath weapon?
Okay.
You pick Dragon Eidolon, and say that its spirit manifests by assimilating the nature around it during its first manifestation into a body. It chose a humanoid treant-like body. Done.
Your eidolon's form isn't tied to the crunch. Make stuff up that sounds cool, find what fits the crunch, and make up a backstory that makes it work with the flavor you want. Traits exist to serve as idea prompts here, giving you something to work with so you don't have to start from scratch. You can choose to embrace them head-on or ignore them outright.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Uh no. Sorry the "just use your imagination " defense might work for 5e but not with me and not with a game based on crunch.
This isn't the game described in the Pathfinder 2E core rulebook, which makes it clear there is plenty of room for imagination in this roleplaying game.
What you do at your own table is your business, but Pathfinder 2E is not this hypothetical game where imagination doesn't matter and only the rules do.
Its got all sorts of examples of cases where things are left to the players and the GM to work out together to tell a story, and this is no different.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Your eidolon's form isn't tied to the crunch. Make stuff up that sounds cool, find what fits the crunch, and make up a backstory that makes it work with the flavor you want. Traits exist to serve as idea prompts here, giving you something to work with so you don't have to start from scratch. You can choose to embrace them head-on or ignore them outright.Uh no. Sorry the "just use your imagination " defense might work for 5e but not with me and not with a game based on crunch.1st level? No. The ideas I have aren't possible at 1st level. And I don't think this should be either at 1st level. But that's the brilliance of recreating a class. Let's start off with a base... a treat that gets fire attacks rather than b s or p. They are 1d4+str rather than 1d8. Is that balanced? Yes. Then let us pick an ability.. say breath attack. Thsts also balanced. Dragons get it. So do kobolds. So let us have as much side grade customization as possible within reason. Snd id be happy.My 1e apg eidolons were - a knight, a ball of lightning that can take humanoid shape, goro from MK, a centaur. Whats so wrong with me having those shapes?All of these are doable with the options we’ll have. Most of them with Playtest options, even.I dont think so. Can I have a burning treant with a 1d6 damage shield and fire breath ? No?
I'd like to design my own base.
I'm curious, given that I'm not terribly familiar with the original Summoner.
Was that possible at 1st level? A shield, with an attack, the plant trait (and presumably an ability that demonstrates that), and a breath weapon?
Okay.
You pick Dragon Eidolon, and say that its spirit manifests by assimilating the nature around it during its first manifestation into a body. It chose a humanoid treant-like body. Done.
Also this is a fantasy game, using your imagination is implied and encouraged, it's not something 5e specific.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
its only certain if you know for a fact meaning you have a devs ear.So... basically the equivalent of going Human for Natural Ambition then.
Okay. That gives us a baseline that there should be some interesting evolutions as 1st level feats (an energy type in particular) that a human Summoner can grab.
Combined with the innate ability of the eidolon (for which there'll be a dozen options), that represents two interesting abilities at 1st level.
(Probably not breath weapon, but we can't have everything)
Reach, Resistance, Scent, Energy Attacks, Flight, etc. are all notable evolutions a Summoner could choose for their Eidolon to have at lv.1
I understand why in 2e Flight should be delayed, but i don't think a lot of these are unreasonable for lv.1 access in 2e like Reach or Energy Attacks.
Based on when (and the two feat plus a stance cost) Fighters get to add reach to any attack they like, I don't see this happening at level 1. Gnome Flick Mace isn't a good comparison, as its something of an extreme exception to the base rules as it stands.
I think that people wanting Energy Attacks should consider that the most likely place for that to show up is in the Elemental base type, which is almost certainly going to be an option and almost certainly will cover this aspect...
Elemental Eidolons are both mentioned in the playtest as an example case for Primal Spell List Eidolons and have been a go-to in previous editions, so them showing up for the full release is highly likely. (Other Emotion Phantoms, Plants, Constructs, and Amalgam (sounded Alchemical in description) were also name dropped as well as the expected Outsider Eidolon types)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
i still stand by my statement until i see it in release. its still an assumption unless you ahve inside knowledge.
Based on when (and the two feat plus a stance cost) Fighters get to add reach to any attack they like, I don't see this happening at level 1. Gnome Flick Mace isn't a good comparison, as its something of an extreme exception to the base rules as it stands.I have to disagree here. Fundamentally, first, because Fighters can add reach to any melee weapon attack starting at level 2 with the Lunge feat. The stance just lets you do it with AoOs. Letting an eidolon get reach on just one of their starting melee attacks seems fine, considering the fighter can do it with any weapon a level later.
Getting things before a Fighter does is the sortof benchmark I'm talking about though when I say I'm against a Summoner stealing other classes identities.
I'm not saying don't give Eidolons reach, I'm saying that giving it to them before The Class that is Best at Fighting might be the sort of thing that upsets Fighters.