My party loves stealthy approaches, but one trope we've always missed having access to is knocking out an unsuspecting guard or similar with a single knock to the head.
It's nearly impossible to emulate this with current rules I feel, other than simply dealing enough damage in one blow and these scenarios often almost end in standard brawling.
Has anyone created or played with their own ruling on this?
I'm thinking somewhere on the lines of requirements being:
- Target must be medium or smaller humanoid
- Player must be unnoticed
- "" within 5ft
- Perform kind of combat maneuver or attack
- Critical success = completely silent knock-out,
Success = knockout but may draw attention
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As far as I know, it's not possible in the rules and would be unbalanced, or it'd have to be a very length rule about when it can be used.
Even so, it'd probably ripe for abuse.
Look at it this way, if I say that it can only be attempted on creatures which are unaware of your presence, you can get a rogue who has invisibility on them with Sneak Savant. The enemy wont detect you unless you critically fail on the roll.
There's basically no chance of failure on the setup condition.
But consider the next part, you make a special kind of combat maneuver. Let's assume it's vs fort DC. Now either the monster is knocked out or the rogue fails and is now exposed (probably far away from allies).
Both options don't actually lead to group fun in my opinion. These sort of one shot abilities are just extremely hard to balance. And are very all or nothing and put the character attempting it in a bad situation.
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I was thinking about the same: a Master-tier Skill Feat going against Fortitude DC, but I'm not sure it fits under Stealth. Maybe not Stealth alone, do we have any Skill Feat requiring two different Skills?
Since the effect is quite powerful, I agree that a critical success should be what you need to really knock out your target; a success would probably give it something like Stunned 1 and prevent it from doing something of your choice (speaking or moving, for example) for one round.
With the Incapacitate trait it becomes a good opening move against lower or equal-level opponents, and a nice way to take out a weak guard without anyone noticing; but not something you can use to one-shot a boss.
Perhaps:
For starters, making it an Incapacitation effect.
As mentioned the attack must be an attack from someone unnoticed by the foe, but I might add any of the foes allies(as they could signal the foe of the pending danger). Defender must also be considered flat-footed against the attacker. (so effects that might stop that, might prevent this effect) The attack must be doing non-lethal damage to the target.
Target makes a Fortitude save if they are hit.
On a critical failure the compare the targets current hit points to the non-lethal damage they just took. If the remaining HP is less than the damage just done, the target is knocked out. (note: they don't take extra damage, they just become unconscious) If the HP remaining is higher, the target simply becomes stunned 1 instead. In either case, the target is considered flat-footed against the attacker until the end of the targets next round.
On a regular failure, compare the targets current hit points to the damage they just took. If the remaining HP is less than the damage just done, the target becomes stunned 1. If the HP remaining is higher, the target simply becomes stunned 1 instead. In either case, target is considered flat-footed against the attacker until the end of the targets next round.
This makes the action viable in situations where you might expect it to be viable, but hard to abuse against a boss type monster, for instance. For purpose of knocking out a creature it is similar to doubling the non-lethal damage done in an attack if the target critically fails their saving throw. (meaning it can be up to 4x effective damage if the triggering attack was a critical) The primary effect being that creatures that can be taken down by two criticals, have a chance to be taken down by one instead.
However, if someone revives the individual they start at their remaining HP, entering the fight more dangerous, and the the rest of the failure effects produce a usable but non-encounter ending debuff.
In a way, this is designed to be potentially given out as a free ability in a campaign where this sort of action would be thematic to the storyline. (actually, something similar to the Edgewatch AP, where non-lethal damage is highlighted) A useful, but not overpowering option, allowing the player to work to get a strategic advantage for an encounter and then capitalize on it.
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A non-leathal critical hit from a high level creature against a low level creature would work fine.
Especially if you use something like power attack.
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Yeah, the key here is using low level sentries that can be dropped in one hit but can raise the alarm with a single action. This also allows for other tropes such as distractions and deceptions with a reasonable chance of success.
The other option is running infiltration, including guard-bonking as a narrative-heavy complex skill challenge, and transitioning to a more standard encounter when they run into the elite forces that merit a fight scene.
How does this look?
Feat ??
[Incapacitation]
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You can render a foe unconscious with a concussive blow to the head. When you critically hit with a a nonlethal attack, if your attack dealt bludgeoning damage, the target attempts a Fortitude save against your class DC with the following effects.Critical Success The target is unaffected and is temporarily immune for 1 minute.
Failure The target is stunned 1.
Critical Failure The target falls unconscious for 1 minute.
Nah, the game is (IMO) much more about players rolling than the GM, so rather than having the GM roll saves I'd prefer to see players roll a attack roll/combat maneuver style roll against the enemies fort DC.
Crit Success: The target is knocked out for 1 minute
Success: The target is stunned 1
Failure: Nothing happens
Crit Failure: You are flat-footed to the enemy's next attack against you
My feat still requires players to make an attack roll first, so it's not like it's entirely outside the player's hands. I decided to make it not an action so it could potentially work with any source of bludgeoning damage. I wanted to leave the option open for players to make amusing and clever plays like taking out a guard with a thrown rock.
How does this look?
Feat ??
[Incapacitation]
-----
You can render a foe unconscious with a concussive blow to the head. When you critically hit with a a nonlethal attack, if your attack dealt bludgeoning damage, the target attempts a Fortitude save against your class DC with the following effects.Critical Success The target is unaffected and is temporarily immune for 1 minute.
Failure The target is stunned 1.
Critical Failure The target falls unconscious for 1 minute.
I would make that an action.
"If your last action was a Strike with a Critical hit"... Or maybe 2 actions.
Either way, not a simple add on.
I would make that an action.
"If your last action was a Strike with a Critical hit"... Or maybe 2 actions.
Either way, not a simple add on.
A triggered action doesn't really make sense. If anything I'd make the feat an action that includes the attack. Again, I want this to work with ranged attacks as well as melee.
I figured that it had enough boxes you had to check to make it fair as a freebie: it has to be a critical hit, it has to be a nonlethal attack, and it has to deal bludgeoning damage. There are comparable feats that offer similar straight-upgrade effects.
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I would make that an action.
"If your last action was a Strike with a Critical hit"... Or maybe 2 actions.
Either way, not a simple add on.
A triggered action doesn't really make sense. If anything I'd make the feat an action that includes the attack. Again, I want this to work with ranged attacks as well as melee.
I figured that it had enough boxes you had to check to make it fair as a freebie: it has to be a critical hit, it has to be a nonlethal attack, and it has to deal bludgeoning damage. There are comparable feats that offer similar straight-upgrade effects.
The problem with this version is it seems to apply to every attack (well, every nonlethal bludgeoning attack): In combat, nonlethal damage is just as effective as lethal damage (assuming your target isn't outright immune due to being undead or the like), so this feat with a Nightstick or Sap will probably end actual 'all out fights' faster than using lethal force (most of your foes will not be higher level, crits will happen, and saves will be failed at some point).
Thanks for your input folks.
I appreciate the balance issues, and by no means would this be for everyone. But putting some hard limitations on it like incapacitation makes sense.
I just like being able to offer some agency while the party is stealthing without resorting to all out fights.
I trust my party - it's more a thematic and narrative enabler for investigations and heists than a hard encounter solve.
My feat still requires players to make an attack roll first, so it's not like it's entirely outside the player's hands. I decided to make it not an action so it could potentially work with any source of bludgeoning damage. I wanted to leave the option open for players to make amusing and clever plays like taking out a guard with a thrown rock.
That's my problem though, PF2 got rid of both players and the GM rolling for an action.
Spells are either attack rolls, or saves. I don't think there are any that are both, or at least they represent a minority.
Most everything in the game is a single roll by either a player or GM.
I think whatever this ability looks like should be the same, one roll. And because it's still basically an attack, it needs to be an combat maneuver roll vs Fort DC in my opinion.
My feat still requires players to make an attack roll first, so it's not like it's entirely outside the player's hands. I decided to make it not an action so it could potentially work with any source of bludgeoning damage. I wanted to leave the option open for players to make amusing and clever plays like taking out a guard with a thrown rock.That's my problem though, PF2 got rid of both players and the GM rolling for an action.
Spells are either attack rolls, or saves. I don't think there are any that are both, or at least they represent a minority.
Most everything in the game is a single roll by either a player or GM.
I think whatever this ability looks like should be the same, one roll. And because it's still basically an attack, it needs to be an combat maneuver roll vs Fort DC in my opinion.
stunning fist is both attack rolls and saves. Not unheard of.
Anyways, to throw my hat in the ring.
Silent takedown, level 6 (rogue, ranger, fighter).
2 actions. Expert in stealth
You attempt a to take down an enemy without alerting others. Make a stike against the target with a -5 circumstance penalty, or a -3 penalty if you make a non-leathal attack.
If you kill or knocks out the target, it silently falls to the floor before it has a chance to call out, and without raising any immediate suspicion.
Make a Stealth check against the Perception DC of all observer except target the target of your attack. If you succeed, you remain hidden from those observers and they are not aware an attack was made. Though seeing someone slump to the ground may cause others to quickly investigate.
Roll + Save is for attacks that basically do damage, but can add a strong extra effect.
In this case, if you want the knock-out to be a rider on a Strike you are making, it's reasonable to say that you have to roll your attack, and then (if you crit, or some other condition) the enemy has to save.
If the knock-out action does little damage, or none at all, it's better to have it as just an attack or skill roll vs Fort DC.
Rather than running this as a maneuver to use in combat (since, imo, combat in any game is a clunky place to resolve a quick and dirty incapacitation like this), I'd handle is like a exploration tactic as such:
Disable Sentry
Traits: Exploration
You subtly approach an unsuspecting foe and use a swift, decisive blow to render them unconscious.
To Disable a Sentry, you must roll stealth (for an ambush) or deception (for an unexpected attack, such as a sucker punch) against the target's perception DC.
S: your target does not see or suspect the attack
F: immediately enter encounter mode, using your roll as your initative roll. Your target is aware that you are trying to hurt them
CF: as failure, but you automatically enter initative last
If your target does not suspect your attack, make an athletics check against their fortitude DC or a non lethal Strike (applying the usual penalties for making nonlethal attacks using weapons without the nonlethal trait as usual). If you have a spell capable of dealing non lethal damage (such as daze or admonishing ray) or, at the GM's descretion, a spell with a similar incapacitating effect (such as sleep), you can also make a spell attack against the target if the applicable spell has the attack trait, or your target saves against the spell. You still expend the spell slot as normal, but use you level instead of twice the spell's level, and replace any and all effects with the following one. This has the incapacitation and non lethal trait.
CS: as success, but the effect lasts 8 hours
S: you knock the guard unconscious for 1 hour. A creature can end the effect early by spending 10 minutes and succeeding a Medicine roll with a hard DC for a creature of your level
F: you enter encounter mode, rolling initiative with the skill you used in the previous step
If you used a spell with a saving throw, a critical failure has the effects of critical success, a failure has the effect of a success, and a success or critical success has the effects of a failure
Onlookers can make a perception roll against the DC of the skill you used in the first step to notice you.
It's kinda rough right now, but the basic idea addresses both the need for something not exploitable in combat (since this being an exploration activity), not an instant boss killer (incapacitation), as well as fast and easy to use (with it basically being two skill rolls)