Making dragon claws work

[Rossbert]

I'm a big fan of dragon flavor wherever I find it. So I'm looking very strongly at a draconic sorcerer but struggling with how to get good use out of the focus spells. Does anyone have any guidance on making good use of the dragon claws focus spell for a sorcerer?

[Ravingdork]

True strike and not gimping Strength helps a lot. Handwraps of mighty blows with lots of damage runes are also helpful at later levels.

Dedication/archetype feats might allow you to boost the proficiency by one step, giving you an additional +2 to hit.

[Ventnor]

I'd also recommend Orc or Goblin heritage, for the most HP you can get out of an ancestry.

[First World Bard]

Ravingdork wrote:

Dedication/archetype feats might allow you to boost the proficiency by one step, giving you an additional +2 to hit.

I don't know of any dedications that increase weapon proficiencies by one step. Certainly there are dedications that will add a set of weapons (or armors) to the proficiencies you already have. But I don't think there's any way to get expert in claws before Sorcerer gives that to you at 11th? level.

If you want claws to be your main attack routine, perhaps get them through the Sorcerer archetype, or maybe even Dragon Disciple. The Dragon Barbarian is a way to get draconic flavor in a martial build.

But if you want to be a caster first, and use the claws second: find spells that take two actions to cast that dont have attack rolls, and use the claws as a third action. Against an enemy without Attacks of Opportunity, of course :)

[Ravingdork]

First World Bard wrote:

I don't know of any dedications that increase weapon proficiencies by one step.

I've seen a few in the APG that will raise weapon proficiency to match your existing weapon proficiencies.

So if you're a fighter, for example, you could use Martial Artist Dedication to have your unarmed attacks match your Fighter Weapon Mastery or Weapon Legend proficiency.

First World Bard wrote:

Certainly there are dedications that will add a set of weapons (or armors) to the proficiencies you already have. But I don't think there's any way to get expert in claws before Sorcerer gives that to you at 11th? level.

I did not mean to imply that you could "jump the gun" of proficiency.

[Castilliano]

The trouble isn't so much Dragon Claws as trying to build a melee worthy Sorcerer. At maximum effort you'll get a mediocre melee build (who's likely going to die or has hamstrung their spellcasting).

So I'd recommend going MCD Sorcerer. In fact, I'd insist on it if you're serious about Dragon Claws being your primary offense.

The claws are finesse so they'll work with Sneak Attack.
They're not agile so they'll work with Rage.
They're not weapons so they're only so-so for Thief Rogue, Flurry Ranger or most Fighter feats. Though a Precision Ranger or a Fighter chassis (since many feats might be going to the MCD anyway) still work well. (And being Unarmed, the claws will advance in proficiency as fast as whatever other weapon group the Fighter wishes to specialize in.)
Champion could make use of the Charisma though I don't think that'd be the best use of stats, and so could Barb or Rogue can also make good use w/ specific feats.

Monk & Barbarian already have better unarmed options, and martial weapons are simply better, so I'd likely go Rogue who takes modest attacks and makes them significant. I'd choose maybe a Ruffian (despite the Finesse trait) for the armor and the damage Str. will give you, though I'd also review Rogue feats to see which Racket feats and debilitation feats suit your PC's style. Stats will be tight until 5th, but they don't need Dex or Cha over 14 or Int much with the Rogue skillfest. The skills + your free hands will allow great trips (et al).
In fact, if Lizardfolk are open, I'd go with one of them. That'll also help if your Focus Point hasn't recharged yet and you want some claws, and you can start the claw shtick going before 4th.

Now realizing that Deadly Simplicity would work on those 1d4 claws, so Warpriest (straining stats, doesn't get that great) or Champion (fine w/ low Dex) may work fine, with that d6 being important as Striking Runes improve. Hmm.
(Found two CN neutral gods for claws who allow CG followers.)

Anyway, it'll be a challenge!

[Castilliano]

Just noticed, after all that, that you really want your PC to be a Sorcerer, in which case I'd say do not waste much effort on making Dragon Claws "work". Your Cantrips will remain superior.

(Sad, I know, but I'm serious and I'm speaking as someone who's been in your shoes trying to make Dragon Claws viable. Gotta go elsewhere for a dragon-themed melee capability.)

[Eoni]

I'm no master character builder but I've been thinking taking Dragon Disciple and focusing on Intimidate could help quite a bit. You get Scales of the Dragon to increase your low ac and let you start with a 16 in Strength and then can take Dragon Disciple's Dragon Claws to increase your damage to 1d6. And since you're a charisma caster, you can Demoralize like no other.

[Rossbert]

Is Scales of the Dragon even worth looking at though? It is easy enough to have a pretty close AC through just Dex alone by that point. Which helps with the finesse bit, even if damage lags a touch.

[WatersLethe]

I really think Scales of the Dragon is meant to beef up polymorph, and low dex characters are an afterthought.

[Djinn71]

Ravingdork wrote:

First World Bard wrote:

I don't know of any dedications that increase weapon proficiencies by one step.

I've seen a few in the APG that will raise weapon proficiency to match your existing weapon proficiencies.

So if you're a fighter, for example, you could use Martial Artist Dedication to have your unarmed attacks match your Fighter Weapon Mastery or Weapon Legend proficiency.

First World Bard wrote:

Certainly there are dedications that will add a set of weapons (or armors) to the proficiencies you already have. But I don't think there's any way to get expert in claws before Sorcerer gives that to you at 11th? level.

I did not mean to imply that you could "jump the gun" of proficiency.

You automatically get that proficiency with Unarmed Attacks since the Errata.

Quote:

All Classes for Unarmed Attack Proficiency and Benefits

For any class feature that improves the proficiency rank
or grants the critical specialization effect access for simple
weapons or a specific set of weapons, that ability also
grants that benefit for unarmed attacks.

[Rossbert]

I seem to be at a bit of a dilemma. Going rogue makes them more effective, but it also almost blocks off getting more focus points to fuel them or the claws of the dragon feat to make them better.

I did think of abandoning that plan altogether and just going magical rogue and using bespell weapon to get a similar feel but the lack of slots hurts.

[etiira]

Have you considered precision ranger? You could take Gravity Weapon to later access Warden's Focus/Wellspring, and get a lot of that rogue flavor with some increased health.

Related, but casting Dragon Wings(through Wings of the Dragon) allows you to add Dragon Claws to the cast even if you don't have the spell by RAW, right? I know both spells were originally created for a bloodline that included Dragon Claws automatically, but the wording makes it seem like you don't need that spell to add it onto Dragon Wings. If I'm right, there are still reasons to hold onto Claws of the Dragon, but it should be an easy retrain at 14, if you desire(you'll still have 3 focus between GW, Breath, and Wings).

[Rossbert]

Don't you need to be either a kobold, dragon barbarian, or dragon sorcerer to access dragon disciple? That seems like a lot of feat investment from a ranger.

[etiira]

You'd be able to get your focus suite, then claws, focus breath, and wings as a kobold ranger, and still have room at 6, 10, 16, and 20. It's not much, but no other class is going to be able to do those things with fewer feats, aside from dragon sorc(who doesn't have the attacks or defense to really put the claws to good use)

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Maybe if using dragon claws was a free action. Then you could pop them on the rare occasion you needed a melee attack.

[Xethik]

Rossbert wrote:

Don't you need to be either a kobold, dragon barbarian, or dragon sorcerer to access dragon disciple? That seems like a lot of feat investment from a ranger.

It's just Uncommon if you are not a Kobold or Dragon Barbarian/Sorcerer. Access means you can "acquire" it without the normal GM explicit permission, but it is not a prerequisite.

A GM may allow any character to take Dragon Disciple, perhaps as a reward or as an automatic unlock.

[Perpdepog]

WatersLethe wrote:

I really think Scales of the Dragon is meant to beef up polymorph, and low dex characters are an afterthought.

You know I'd never considered that application until now, and it makes me feel a fair bit better about Scales of the Dragon, and would be a pretty fun thing to slap on a draconic-themed druid, or to retrain into as a sorc later when you have some battleforms you feel comfortable wading into melee with.