All the combat feats for the medic archetype require you to have healers tools and one hand free, presumably to se them as part of the action. I can’t see why Battle Medicine would be different.
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Healer's Tools states it is 2 hands.
This lists how many hands it takes to use the item effectively.
This kit of bandages, herbs, and suturing tools is necessary for Medicine checks to Administer First Aid, Treat Disease, Treat Poison, or Treat Wounds.
Administer First Aid requires you possess the tools, but makes no mention of hands, nor actually using the tools.
Treat Poison requires you possess the tools, but makes no mention of hands, nor actually using the tools.Treat Disease and Treat Wounds requires you possess the tools, but makes no mention of hands, nor actually using the tools.
There is no listing of what the effect of using less hands other than being less effective. But that has no mechanical definition. Therefore, there is no difference if not having free hands.
Battle Medicine requires you are holding or wearing healer's tools. Again, it makes no mention of hands, nor actually using the tools.
I agree that this leaves unclear the effect of insufficient hands, but there is RAW no mechanical effect.
/cevah
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To make matters worse the Skinsitch salve consumable requires you to hold it in hand to use it with treat wounds or battle medicine as a free action. Since this free action follows the rules of a reaction, it'd be impossible to use the item when you held the healers tools, as the trigger is "You treat wounds or use battle medicine". If you were holding the healers tools all your hands are occupied, leading to a catch 22 for that use of the skinstich item. Frankly that item is a big point in favor of those who argue battle medicine doesn't require hands.
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They have been working on a clarification to Battle Medicine for more than a year without a published resolution. I’m sure that if something as simple as changing the required hands for usage was the solution, they would have stated so. We really don’t know if this is an issue of the designers being unwilling/unable to clarify, but they seem to indicated the issue lies with the greater impact any solution will have on manipulate/interact actions in general.
Personally, I no longer anticipate an official resolution to this problem. They have now printed another book (APG) that would have been impacted significantly if there was an errata to how manipulate/interact works yet they didn’t make any changes. So rest on your own judgement for your home games and suffer table variation in PFS. Good luck
To make matters worse the Skinsitch salve consumable requires you to hold it in hand to use it with treat wounds or battle medicine as a free action. Since this free action follows the rules of a reaction, it'd be impossible to use the item when you held the healers tools, as the trigger is "You treat wounds or use battle medicine". If you were holding the healers tools all your hands are occupied, leading to a catch 22 for that use of the skinstich item. Frankly that item is a big point in favor of those who argue battle medicine doesn't require hands.
Except, per RAW, you aren't ever using tools. You just need to have them. There's no reason to ever require hands when it comes to performing those activities.
Who needs arms and legs? Just let an ooze or an armless guy break into chests or heal people with Jedi mind tricks.
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To make matters worse the Skinsitch salve consumable requires you to hold it in hand to use it with treat wounds or battle medicine as a free action. Since this free action follows the rules of a reaction, it'd be impossible to use the item when you held the healers tools, as the trigger is "You treat wounds or use battle medicine". If you were holding the healers tools all your hands are occupied, leading to a catch 22 for that use of the skinstich item. Frankly that item is a big point in favor of those who argue battle medicine doesn't require hands.Except, per RAW, you aren't ever using tools. You just need to have them. There's no reason to ever require hands when it comes to performing those activities.
Who needs arms and legs? Just let an ooze or an armless guy break into chests or heal people with Jedi mind tricks.
There are mundane ways in the game to survive indefinitely without food or water or fall from orbit without being damaged by the fall... Legless and armless healing and chest opening seems MIGHTY low on the 'hard to believe' chart IMO. I find 2 second medical treatment more implausible than tool-less medical treatment... :P
I find 2 second medical treatment more implausible than tool-less medical treatment... :PYou just need the right band aid
Now that's some damage (healed)!
There are mundane ways in the game to survive indefinitely without food or water or fall from orbit without being damaged by the fall... Legless and armless healing and chest opening seems MIGHTY low on the 'hard to believe' chart IMO. I find 2 second medical treatment more implausible than tool-less medical treatment... :PTo make matters worse the Skinsitch salve consumable requires you to hold it in hand to use it with treat wounds or battle medicine as a free action. Since this free action follows the rules of a reaction, it'd be impossible to use the item when you held the healers tools, as the trigger is "You treat wounds or use battle medicine". If you were holding the healers tools all your hands are occupied, leading to a catch 22 for that use of the skinstich item. Frankly that item is a big point in favor of those who argue battle medicine doesn't require hands.Except, per RAW, you aren't ever using tools. You just need to have them. There's no reason to ever require hands when it comes to performing those activities.
Who needs arms and legs? Just let an ooze or an armless guy break into chests or heal people with Jedi mind tricks.
Survive without food or water: This can be done with either Planar Survival (which just lets you make forage checks in places where foraging isn't usually possible), or can waive checks entirely with Legendary Survivalist. This comes from being a minimum of Master in Survival, to being Legendary in Survival. Compared to simply being Trained in Medicine, this is more in-line with what I expect extremely skilled characters to be able to accomplish in the game. This can also be done with a magic item, so, yeah.
Take no damage from falling: Per RAW, all you need is Legendary in Acrobatics and Cat Fall. You don't need to actively jump, hell, you don't even need to be conscious, per RAW! Of course, I don't see a GM being lenient enough to say that you unconsciously land without taking damage. Mere happenstance isn't really a realm of skill demonstration, in that case.
Additionally, if we are talking about coming out from orbit, re-entering the atmosphere means you'd be a charred corpse before hitting a solid surface, so I would rule that unless you are immune (or extremely resistant) to fire for the duration of the fall, you'd probably be dead before impact. I could be extrapolating here, but astronauts are in special suits and giant element-resistant metallic housing for a reason, and it isn't particularly because hitting the ground hurts.
Compared to the investment and the expectation of the feats in question, not to mention the mechanical implications behind said feats? It's quite clear which one is the bigger problem to explain away.
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Additionally, if we are talking about coming out from orbit, re-entering the atmosphere means you'd be a charred corpse before hitting a solid surface, so I would rule that unless you are immune (or extremely resistant) to fire for the duration of the fall, you'd probably be dead before impact. I could be extrapolating here, but astronauts are in special suits and giant element-resistant metallic housing for a reason, and it isn't particularly because hitting the ground hurts.
Fool, just use your Legendary Acrobatics to dodge air molecules.
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Legendary Survivalist
While it requires the survival skill it doesn't USE it: you just never need to eat or drink again. Secondly, the level of proficiency doesn't make the impossible possible if the only thing that matters to you is what you can do in reality.
Compared to simply being Trained in Medicine, this is more in-line with what I expect extremely skilled characters to be able to accomplish in the game. This can also be done with a magic item, so, yeah.
Both are 100% mundane feats. 100%. So both have the exact same expectation of adhering to reality: It IS NOT MAGIC.
Mere happenstance isn't really a realm of skill demonstration, in that case.
It's not really happenstance when it's 100% repeatable. You do it 10,000 times in a row and it's hard to call it happenstance.
charred corpse
Note I said "from the fall", not incidental damage. You could also fall into a pool of acid and I'm still only talking about the actual fall damage.
Compared to the investment and the expectation of the feats in question
No thank you. It's something 1000% meaningless in determining what is possible or not. Just because one requires a higher level to get doesn't change how far we can prove pathfinder reality and physics diverge from our reality and physics.
Secondly, lets go back to the basic premise of the feat in question, battle medicine. It allows medical treatment in 2 seconds: full stop. Once we accept that, tools or number of hands needed seems like a moot point in believability and adherence to reality as the base action doesn't conform to any standard of reality... Between armless/legless and 2 second treatment, 2 seconds seems less plausible. :P
It isn't. Which is precisely why skill feats gated by proficiency requirements exist. Certain capabilities of skills (or in general) requiring certain proficiencies is what makes the difference between characters who can and can't do things, not unlike skill feats. What I'm saying is that being merely trained doesn't really let you remove apparent hand requirements any more than being legendary in weapons does for Fighters.
Of course neither are magic. That's not the point. The point is that one is still more believable than the other, and isn't held to a ridiculous 2 second no-limbs-required tools-shouldn't-be-required-either constraint.
I don't think you understand what I was getting at here. Someone unconsciously and miraculously falling without taking damage is what I was talking about when referring to "happenstance." I can't see a GM straight-faced letting someone fall asleep mid-air like an episode of Looney Tunes.
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Fall asleep? You mean pass out from G-force? You understand that actually happens in real life, right? It’s the most common cause of death in skydiving, right before equipment malfunction.
Nobody can fall from the ionosphere and survive unassisted. It’s physically impossible. Cat Fall doesn’t care. Nobody can actually quantify what Hit Points are as a whole. Battle Medicine doesn’t care. Neither of these are magic. Nor is Bon Mot, which is apparently so devastating that it utterly destroys an enemies ability to react to anything.
I'm sure it does. But there's no rules for it in Pathfinder, so it's not a realistic expectation to have. You can have the Cat Fall feat with legendary Acrobatics and just take a nap while you fall down in a vacuum and never get hurt, because apparently being conscious doesn't matter when it comes to landing on your feet unscathed.
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That's not the point.
It is to me. How hard something is to get and being possible in real life are two completely different things: one isn't linked to the other. Would your sense of reality somehow change with greater proficiency?
The point is that one is still more believable than the other
True but you and I don't agree on what is more believable: no hands is BY FAR more believable than 2 second physical medicine involving tools... If you mean about the feats, then too is battle medicine far, far, far more believable than never eating/drinking EVER again or infinite falling distances because of skill.
I don't think you understand what I was getting at here.
I get what you are going for, I just don't agree on a basic level. If you disagree with battle medicine's lack of a hand requirement on a sense of reality basis I can't see why that matters on a 2 second treatment, an integral part of the feat, which should equally bather that sense of reality: it doesn't become MORE possible in real life by requiring a hand or 2... :P
I can't see a GM straight-faced letting someone fall asleep mid-air like an episode of Looney Tunes.
I can see any DM looking at the feat ant NOT allowing it unless they are trying to screw the player... I'd expect the DM to TELL me he plans to screw me beforehand when I take the feat, not once I've fallen down: It's no crazier than never eating again and if you want to change things, great but that's a houserule and not the actual rules.
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I'm sure it does. But there's no rules for it in Pathfinder, so it's not a realistic expectation to have. You can have the Cat Fall feat with legendary Acrobatics and just take a nap while you fall down in a vacuum and never get hurt, because apparently being conscious doesn't matter when it comes to landing on your feet unscathed.
If this doesn’t bother you, and you admit that Bon Mot, a Feat that utterly WRECKS an opponent with a single Action isn’t OP, or somehow impossible to understand, then why in the blue Hell is Battle Medicine somehow breaking your verisimilitude, when Hit Points as a whole are a load of crap simulationist mumbo jumbo?
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If this doesn’t bother you, and you admit that Bon Mot, a Feat that utterly WRECKS an opponent with a single Action isn’t OP, or somehow impossible to understand, then why in the blue Hell is Battle Medicine somehow breaking your verisimilitude, when Hit Points as a whole are a load of crap simulationist mumbo jumbo?
Why are you saying that Bon Mot is OP though? It's -2/-3 to Will and Perception. It's not that different from Demoralize, since it can impart Frightened 1/2, that is -1/-2 to everything, Will and Perception included, but also to Ref, Fort, hit, AC, skills and literally any other DC. Granted, Frightened lasts only 1/2 rounds, but Bon Mot can also be removed earlier if really necessary. Plus, Bon Mot requires the target to understand what you're saying, so not applicable to animals and many other creatures; Demoralize works against anyone who is not mindless, and for a feat it doesn't even have a malus to the Intimidation roll.
Overall, they are both mental actions targeting Will DC that take 1 action to perform.
I’m not saying Bon Mot is OP, I’m using Darksol’s argument that it’s totally unrealistic to have such an effect happen in two seconds. Y’know, ignoring the fact that the Feat does exactly what it says it does
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I’m not saying Bon Mot is OP, I’m using Darksol’s argument that it’s totally unrealistic to have such an effect happen in two seconds. Y’know, ignoring the fact that the Feat does exactly what it says it does
I'm not following. You said "Bon Mot, a Feat that utterly WRECKS an opponent with a single Action", but I would hardly call a foe with -2/-3 to Will and Perception, which can be removed automatically with a single action, "utterly WRECKED". Anyhow, I understand that you're trying to prove another point, so I will not engage further.
-2 to Will and Perception is absolutely devastating, especially at low level. If you were Trained in Will saves, well, now you’re effectively not. That -2 to Perception means that anyone coming at you from Stealth or anything that requires you to see it coming is going to hurt you, badly. Follow up Bon Mot with a Demoralize, and now you’ve effectively rendered their Will saves nonexistent for the first five levels of Pathfinder. Bon Mot is a wrecking ball of a Feat, especially on a Rogue, Sorceror, or, God forbid, a Bard.
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-2 to Will and Perception is absolutely devastating, especially at low level. If you were Trained in Will saves, well, now you’re effectively not. That -2 to Perception means that anyone coming at you from Stealth or anything that requires you to see it coming is going to hurt you, badly. Follow up Bon Mot with a Demoralize, and now you’ve effectively rendered their Will saves nonexistent for the first five levels of Pathfinder. Bon Mot is a wrecking ball of a Feat, especially on a Rogue, Sorceror, or, God forbid, a Bard.
Again, it's not any different from Demoralize. It's -1 more in Will and Perception, but has no effect on anything else. If anything, it's worse than Demoralize, because it has no effect when the target is surrounded by 3 melees. The fact that you can combine the two is neat but, again, it's in no way better than a Fear spell that you could cast with the same 2 actions (and targeting Will only once instead of twice, which in turn increases the chances of a critical success). You're clearly talking on a theoretical basis and have had no experience with it in the game (and I'm playing a Bard using the feat and Demoralize).
I have it on a Ruffian Rogue. It’s not a theoretical, it’s in application in the current game I’m in, and it’s incredible. Yes, it has the downside of being single-target, it also helps to guarantee a crit success with Demoralize, which, as a Ruffian, leads me to not only have the advantage of flat-footed from anywhere and without an ally, but also helps to trigger a bunch of other goodies, like Vicious Debilitations. If it were multi-target, I’d more than likely be saying that it honestly veers towards too powerful.
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There's no reason to ever require hands when it comes to performing those activities.
All those actions have the Manipulate trait.
Manipulate - You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait. Creatures without a suitable appendage can’t perform actions with this trait. Manipulate actions often trigger reactions.
So you need at least one hand to do the action.
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So you need at least one hand to do the action.
We've covered this.
Manipulate != Free Hand
Manipulate means you need to have grasping appendages, a free hand is a special use case where that grasping appendage is, you know, empty.
Otherwise:
Quick Alchemy and Poison Weapon are listing the requirement twice: they have both the [Manipulate] tag and "Requires: free hand"
NO ONE is saying that manipulate actions don't use your hands, we're saying that your hands don't need to be empty.
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For one, free hands being called out as a requirement separately from the manipulate trait in multiple abilities. Two, the manipulate trait NOT calling out free hands as part of its description, including feasts like Quaking Stomp which make no sense to require a free hand. Three, 272 saying there's a difference between the number of hands needed to wield an item and needing to merely have the item. Four, the medic archetype feat saying the it requires a medicine kit and a free hand. Five the Quick Alchemy feat needing an alchemy kit (requires two hands to wield!) and a free hand. Six, somatic components explicitly saying they do not need a free hand, but are manipulate. Seven the Skinsitch salve consumable requires you to hold it in hand to use it with treat wounds or battle medicine (it would be impossible to hold the kit in one hand, have a second hand free, and also hold the salve).
All of these have been called out alreadyin the battle medicine thread, except #7 which is in the fifth (ish) post in this thread (and was new to me).
How many hands and how much bulk do I need to install the snare that involves “hundreds” of arrows that I scrounged during daily prep and can train to undetectably install in two seconds?
That's not the point.It is to me. How hard something is to get and being possible in real life are two completely different things: one isn't linked to the other. Would your sense of reality somehow change with greater proficiency?
The point is that one is still more believable than the otherTrue but you and I don't agree on what is more believable: no hands is BY FAR more believable than 2 second physical medicine involving tools... If you mean about the feats, then too is battle medicine far, far, far more believable than never eating/drinking EVER again or infinite falling distances because of skill.
I don't think you understand what I was getting at here.I get what you are going for, I just don't agree on a basic level. If you disagree with battle medicine's lack of a hand requirement on a sense of reality basis I can't see why that matters on a 2 second treatment, an integral part of the feat, which should equally bather that sense of reality: it doesn't become MORE possible in real life by requiring a hand or 2... :P
I can't see a GM straight-faced letting someone fall asleep mid-air like an episode of Looney Tunes.I can see any DM looking at the feat ant NOT allowing it unless they are trying to screw the player... I'd expect the DM to TELL me he plans to screw me beforehand when I take the feat, not once I've fallen down: It's no crazier than never eating again and if you want to change things, great but that's a houserule and not the actual rules.
Efficiency and capability are things that are both linked to proficiency, both in-game and in the real world. There are things that people, if skilled enough, can do things that people who aren't skilled enough can't do. This is replicated multi-fold, with proficiency boosts (efficiency), and skill feats (capability), based on situations at hand. As for whether real life applies? I think I'll plead the Multiple Universes interpretation here, and say that unless the rules include it from real life, it's not applicable here.
Agree to disagree here on both points. You can certainly do effective "healing" in two seconds of activity, depending on the injury, but I find that any of this healing done without tools (which is thankfully errata'd) or without fine-motor-skills via hands is much less likely to be done in two seconds than without them. The problem with enforcing Battle Medicine to take shorter or longer depending on injury creates worse levels of GM FIAT than the current way it's ran.
I really doubt Pathfinder rules were written to let you unconsciously fall to the ground without taking damage of any kind like in Looney Tunes. 90% of the player abilities are written with the assumption that you are conscious and choosing to do those activities. Casting spells, jumping out from space back into orbit and then landing on your feet when you make impact with the ground, making strikes, etc. require consciousness to do. You can at-best argue that you can sleep while falling, and then be conscious right before you land, but if you impact the ground before you are conscious, that's a splat.
I'm sure it does. But there's no rules for it in Pathfinder, so it's not a realistic expectation to have. You can have the Cat Fall feat with legendary Acrobatics and just take a nap while you fall down in a vacuum and never get hurt, because apparently being conscious doesn't matter when it comes to landing on your feet unscathed.If this doesn’t bother you, and you admit that Bon Mot, a Feat that utterly WRECKS an opponent with a single Action isn’t OP, or somehow impossible to understand, then why in the blue Hell is Battle Medicine somehow breaking your verisimilitude, when Hit Points as a whole are a load of crap simulationist mumbo jumbo?
It does. I was being sarcastic with this statement, if it wasn't obvious enough. As for Bon Mot being not OP, it's not that much worse than Scare to Death or Terrified Retreat. Combined with Battle Cry, making enemies either insta-dead or running away before combat even begins? Much more powerful. Yes, it takes like 4 feats to do these things, but even something as basic as Terrified Retreat would make Bon Mot look like nothing.
That being said, Bon Mot being able to combine with these things to make your Intimidate more effective is quite strong. And it's not unreasonable to expect someone good with Intimidation to be good with Diplomacy, too.
But honestly, saying something that makes people go "WTF?" in 2 seconds is infinitely more possible. Because I have this happen to me almost every day of the week. Even on these very forums! It technically is longer than 2 seconds due to reading, but the effect certainly is the same.
There's no reason to ever require hands when it comes to performing those activities.All those actions have the Manipulate trait.
Manipulate - You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait. Creatures without a suitable appendage can’t perform actions with this trait. Manipulate actions often trigger reactions.
So you need at least one hand to do the action.
You're making the assumption that people have hands at all, or that it's a requirement for the feat, and it's wrong. Nothing in the feat or the trait outright says hands are required or even necessary. This is GM FIAT shenanigans that, if done at any table, will get you labeled badwrongfun and thrown out of the gaming circle.
Just accept that jedi mind tricks for items when limbs aren't outright called for is the norm for this. I'm fine with it at this point. The multiple universes interpretation tells me that jedi mind tricks are the new norm for the Pathfinder universe and that badwrongfun comes from using limbs not necessary or completely spelled out for it, which tears open a portal in spacetime that throws the character and the player into a cesspit void of loneliness due to a difference of opinion.
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You're making the assumption that people have hands at all, or that it's a requirement for the feat, and it's wrong. Nothing in the feat or the trait outright says hands are required or even necessary.
Battle Medicine - trait manipulate
Manipulate - You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait. Creatures without a suitable appendage can’t perform actions with this trait.Hands or a suitable appendage are required and necessary. If you don't have the needed appendage free (tied up, otherwise impaired, or non existent) you can't perform the action. All non magical healing has manipulate, so at least one appendage is needed.
Craft doesn't specify hands used either, I can make a shield by not touching anything in the forge by force of will alone? Neat trick.
This is GM FIAT shenanigans that, if done at any table, will get you labeled badwrongfun and thrown out of the gaming circle.
The GM has the final word. If someone harasses or bullies the GM to get their way, that's a bad player.
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For one, free hands being called out as a requirement separately from the manipulate trait in multiple abilities.
You listed two, I'd put that down to editorial margin of error.
Two, the manipulate trait NOT calling out free hands as part of its description, including feasts like Quaking Stomp which make no sense to require a free hand.
No, it's calling out appendage. Legs are an appendage.
Three, 272 saying there's a difference between the number of hands needed to wield an item and needing to merely have the item.
Okay
Four, the medic archetype feat saying the it requires a medicine kit and a free hand.
From the Advanced Players Guide - is this a change/update to the rules?
Five the Quick Alchemy feat needing an alchemy kit (requires two hands to wield!) and a free hand.
Mentioned in the first sentence.
Six, somatic components explicitly saying they do not need a free hand, but are manipulate.
But you do need the appendage free to move around.
Seven the Skinsitch salve consumable requires you to hold it in hand to use it with treat wounds or battle medicine (it would be impossible to hold the kit in one hand, have a second hand free, and also hold the salve).
The Salve requires it be held in 1 hand and one hand to treat wounds/battle medicine.
All references from Archive of Nethys.
You're making the assumption that people have hands at all, or that it's a requirement for the feat, and it's wrong. Nothing in the feat or the trait outright says hands are required or even necessary.Battle Medicine - trait manipulate
Manipulate - You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait. Creatures without a suitable appendage can’t perform actions with this trait.Hands or a suitable appendage are required and necessary. If you don't have the needed appendage free (tied up, otherwise impaired, or non existent) you can't perform the action. All non magical healing has manipulate, so at least one appendage is needed.
Craft doesn't specify hands used either, I can make a shield by not touching anything in the forge by force of will alone? Neat trick.
This is GM FIAT shenanigans that, if done at any table, will get you labeled badwrongfun and thrown out of the gaming circle.The GM has the final word. If someone harasses or bullies the GM to get their way, that's a bad player.
Manipulate doesn't mean an appendage is required. Even if it does, the ability specifies the appendage. No specification means it can be whatever I want. Even my brain counts in this case. Ergo, jedi mind tricks. So yes, I can telekinetically craft or repair a shield with my brain. Or open locks. Or disable hazards. It's a nice interpretation, really.
The GM can just boot the player because he doesn't conform to the GM's jedi mind trick rules. I think we are both in agreement here.
Oh good. I see we now have a third thread discussing the same issue. I'm sure this will be the one that solves it!
Sarcasm aside, Twilight Knight was correct: Unless/until Paizo acts, PFS table variation is here to stay. Which is a damn shame, but such is life.
Pathfinder 2.5, anyone? ;-)
Most spells have somatic components. The act of using a somatic component adds the manipulate trait to the spell.
You can still cast spells with your hands occupied.
Let that sink in for a moment.
For manipulate actions, you do need a suitable appendage. That is explicitly called out in the rules. You do not need to have that appendage free from holding, or even wielding, something. That is an entirely separate requirement which, uncoincidentally, is often listed separately.
For one, free hands being called out as a requirement separately from the manipulate trait in multiple abilities.You listed two, I'd put that down to editorial margin of error.
There's also Repair (and Affix a Talisman) which call out "both hands" in its activity description, as exploration activities do not usually list requirements because the amount of time involved (10+ minutes) makes the question of "do you have a sword in your hand? Oh, you do. You stand around like an idiot for 10 minutes, wasting your action." is kind of stupid.
As opposed to the feats which have Manipulate and no free hand? And ignoring downtime activities for the above stated reason. I'd like to see the rational for how some of these innately require a free hand to attempt (as, according to you, manipulate implies a free hand is required, if that is so, then ALL of these need to be explained, not just some of them).
Melodious Spell
Harmonize
Unusual Composition
Widen Spell
Form Control (wild shape doesn't even give you hands!)
Overwhelming Energy
Leyline Conduit
Wild Winds Gust
Reactive Distraction
Conceal Spell
Bond Conservation
Palm an Object
Steal
Disable a Device
Pick a Lock
Trick Magic Item
Interact
Release
Grab an Edge (explicitly calls out what happens if your hands are full)
Point Out
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From the Held or Worn subsection:
If a character must wield the item to use it, this entry in the item’s stat block lists the word “held” along with the number of hands the character must use when wielding the item, such as “held in 1 hand.”
Tools (and number of other types of equipment) have a "Hands 2" line, but there's no "held" keyword on any of them. That would leave no wielding requirement for treating wounds, crafting, etc.
But then there's the bandolier (my least-favorite piece of rules writing in the entire CRB), which does imply that they're held on use:
A bandolier holds up to eight items of light Bulk within easy reach and is usually used for alchemical items or potions. If you are carrying or stowing a bandolier rather than wearing it around your chest, it has light Bulk instead of negligible. A bandolier can be dedicated to a full set of tools, such as healer’s tools, allowing you to draw the tools as part of the action that requires them.
Instead of arguing over this as though there's a fully consistent, unambiguous rule on it, maybe it'd be better to accept that it takes some GM RAIing. And hold out hope for an errata entry on tool use.
Except that a bandolier doesn't actually change how many hands (if any) are required by those tools, just that you don't need to spend Interact actions drawing and stowing them.
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Except that a bandolier doesn't actually change how many hands (if any) are required by those tools, just that you don't need to spend Interact actions drawing and stowing them.
The point is that the tools' stat blocks and actions do not make in-hand use a requirement, but other stray rules suggest they do. It's possible there where some rules revisions that were made without cleaning up other sections that reference them.
Except that a bandolier doesn't actually change how many hands (if any) are required by those tools, just that you don't need to spend Interact actions drawing and stowing them.The point is that the tools' stat blocks and actions do not make in-hand use a requirement, but other stray rules suggest they do. It's possible there where some rules revisions that were made without cleaning up other sections that reference them.
Sure, I was just commenting that even if tools did require hands, a bandolier doesn't alter how many.
You're making the assumption that people have hands at all, or that it's a requirement for the feat, and it's wrong. Nothing in the feat or the trait outright says hands are required or even necessary.Battle Medicine - trait manipulate
Manipulate - You must physically manipulate an item or make gestures to use an action with this trait. Creatures without a suitable appendage can’t perform actions with this trait.Hands or a suitable appendage are required and necessary. If you don't have the needed appendage free (tied up, otherwise impaired, or non existent) you can't perform the action. All non magical healing has manipulate, so at least one appendage is needed.
Craft doesn't specify hands used either, I can make a shield by not touching anything in the forge by force of will alone? Neat trick.
This is GM FIAT shenanigans that, if done at any table, will get you labeled badwrongfun and thrown out of the gaming circle.The GM has the final word. If someone harasses or bullies the GM to get their way, that's a bad player.Manipulate doesn't mean an appendage is required. Even if it does, the ability specifies the appendage. No specification means it can be whatever I want. Even my brain counts in this case. Ergo, jedi mind tricks. So yes, I can telekinetically craft or repair a shield with my brain. Or open locks. Or disable hazards. It's a nice interpretation, really.
The GM can just boot the player because he doesn't conform to the GM's jedi mind trick rules. I think we are both in agreement here.
2/10 trolling this thread, I mean could have gone higher but the massive stramwan is keeping you down.
I'm really starting to miss BBT and his thoughts on "HANDS!!!" in pathfinder.
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Most spells have somatic components. The act of using a somatic component adds the manipulate trait to the spell.
You can still cast spells with your hands occupied.
Let that sink in for a moment.
For manipulate actions, you do need a suitable appendage. That is explicitly called out in the rules. You do not need to have that appendage free from holding, or even wielding, something. That is an entirely separate requirement which, uncoincidentally, is often listed separately.
We can gladly gloss over the fact that the somatic component entry specifically calls out that the hand being used for somatic components doesn't have to be free/empty, and ignore its specific applications just to blanket it to every other rule because I prefer to heal, mine, or pick locks with jedi mind tricks. Yeah, okay.
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We can gladly gloss over the fact that the somatic component entry specifically calls out that the hand being used for somatic components doesn't have to be free/empty, and ignore its specific applications just to blanket it to every other rule because I prefer to heal, mine, or pick locks with jedi mind tricks. Yeah, okay.Most spells have somatic components. The act of using a somatic component adds the manipulate trait to the spell.
You can still cast spells with your hands occupied.
Let that sink in for a moment.
For manipulate actions, you do need a suitable appendage. That is explicitly called out in the rules. You do not need to have that appendage free from holding, or even wielding, something. That is an entirely separate requirement which, uncoincidentally, is often listed separately.
Maybe Somatic calls it out because it also specifies that you need to be able to make gestures, etc which might imply you need a free/open hand, even though you don't?
And you're still doing that thing where you're ascribing things to "mind tricks" as opposed to just things being handwaved for gameplay. No ones is actually suggesting that you can open locks with your mind - simply that the particulars of how you manage your items when doing so are handwaved to allow it to be a valid activity in combat.
Yes, your "mind trick" thing is ridiculous. You're also essentially the only person who is regularly picturing/describing this in that way.
We can gladly gloss over the fact that the somatic component entry specifically calls out that the hand being used for somatic components doesn't have to be free/empty, and ignore its specific applications just to blanket it to every other rule because I prefer to heal, mine, or pick locks with jedi mind tricks. Yeah, okay.
Yes, because that language was added during the playtest when the original copy explicitly required a free hand. So when they removed the free-hand requirement they also added supporting language to further clarify that the free hand was not, in fact, required.
It called it out because 3 action spells required 2 free hands (or spells with multiple material and somatic components), something which wasn't intended by the rules (but made possible due to reasonable rulings from ambiguity). There would otherwise still be tables ruling two or more free hands were required.
What about requiring healer's tools, thief's tools, etc., being used in both hands, turns Battle Medicine into a non-valid combat activity? Nothing. Handwaving is basically the same thing as jedi mind tricks, because it's shenanigans that just happen because we "need"/want it to happen to get the desired effect. Which is hands free, item free, magic free, in-combat healing or unlocking/disabling.