Investigator has no Weapon Criticals?

[NemoNoName]

Am I blind, or is there no feature giving Investigators weapon critical effects?

[Ezekieru]

NemoNoName wrote:

Am I blind, or is there no feature giving Investigators weapon critical effects?

I double-checked both AoN and my own copy of the APG. There doesn't appear to be any way, class feature or Investigator feat, to pick up weapon critical specialization effects.

Strange, especially since they could have had it apply to whoever they were striking with their Devise a Stratagem, but who knows?

[Vlorax]

Ezekieru wrote:

NemoNoName wrote:

Am I blind, or is there no feature giving Investigators weapon critical effects?

I double-checked both AoN and my own copy of the APG. There doesn't appear to be any way, class feature or Investigator feat, to pick up weapon critical specialization effects.

Strange, especially since they could have had it apply to whoever they were striking with their Devise a Stratagem, but who knows?

Maybe a future feat will grant it similar to how monks don't get it by default

[N N 959]

Only 7 of the 16 classes get critical specialization. As far as I can tell, Alchemist, Cleric, Druid, Investigator, Monk, Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch, and Wizard do not get crit benefits from weapons. I don't think Paizo would be correct to give it to the Investigator. That class already has a dominant amount of out of combat abilities.

Plus, with Devise a Stratagem, you'd be giving the class an unfair mechanic for leveraging crits. The class has plenty of combat viability, as it is.

[Xenocrat]

N N 959 wrote:

Only 7 of the 16 classes get critical specialization. As far as I can tell, Alchemist, Cleric, Druid, Investigator, Monk, Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch, and Wizard do not get crit benefits from weapons.

Wizard does in the very narrow exception of Hand of the Apprentice, and monk can buy access with a 1st or 2nd level feat.

[Squiggit]

It's certainly not a huge problem, but it is a little odd that they're the only martial-progression class that can't pick up crit specialization natively.

[Ezekieru]

N N 959 wrote:

Only 7 of the 16 classes get critical specialization. As far as I can tell, Alchemist, Cleric, Druid, Investigator, Monk, Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch, and Wizard do not get crit benefits from weapons. I don't think Paizo would be correct to give it to the Investigator. That class already has a dominant amount of out of combat abilities.

Plus, with Devise a Stratagem, you'd be giving the class an unfair mechanic for leveraging crits. The class has plenty of combat viability, as it is.

Monks CAN get weapon critical specialization through a feat choice (and if they picked up Monastic Weaponry, they can get it for whatever Monk weapons they have access to). Warpriest Clerics can get the critical specialization effects from their deity's favor weapon.

Everyone else pointed out are casters, so it makes sense why they wouldn't have critical specialization effects. And then there's Alchemist, who is still overall in a weird place in terms of what features they get. They certainly aren't a caster, but their alchemical items are treated more on the side of caster VS martials.

Like I said, I'm not sure. I hope Investigators (and now that I'm thinking about it, Mutagenist Alchemists) get weapon specialization effects later on as a feat choice, like the Monk.

[Vlorax]

Xenocrat wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

Only 7 of the 16 classes get critical specialization. As far as I can tell, Alchemist, Cleric, Druid, Investigator, Monk, Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch, and Wizard do not get crit benefits from weapons.

Wizard does in the very narrow exception of Hand of the Apprentice, and monk can buy access with a 1st or 2nd level feat.

How are they getting it at 1st level?

[Captain Morgan]

They probably thought crits you knew you'd get were already good enough with Devise a Strategem without adding riders.

[Gisher]

Ezekieru wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

Only 7 of the 16 classes get critical specialization. As far as I can tell, Alchemist, Cleric, Druid, Investigator, Monk, Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch, and Wizard do not get crit benefits from weapons. I don't think Paizo would be correct to give it to the Investigator. That class already has a dominant amount of out of combat abilities.

Plus, with Devise a Stratagem, you'd be giving the class an unfair mechanic for leveraging crits. The class has plenty of combat viability, as it is.

Monks CAN get weapon critical specialization through a feat choice (and if they picked up Monastic Weaponry, they can get it for whatever Monk weapons they have access to). Warpriest Clerics can get the critical specialization effects from their deity's favor weapon.

Everyone else pointed out are casters, so it makes sense why they wouldn't have critical specialization effects. And then there's Alchemist, who is still overall in a weird place in terms of what features they get. They certainly aren't a caster, but their alchemical items are treated more on the side of caster VS martials.

Like I said, I'm not sure. I hope Investigators (and now that I'm thinking about it, Mutagenist Alchemists) get weapon specialization effects later on as a feat choice, like the Monk.

Investigators could pick up critical specialization in some weapons through Monk MC or a number of Ancestral Weaponry feat chains.

[Xenocrat]

Vlorax wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

Only 7 of the 16 classes get critical specialization. As far as I can tell, Alchemist, Cleric, Druid, Investigator, Monk, Oracle, Sorcerer, Witch, and Wizard do not get crit benefits from weapons.

Wizard does in the very narrow exception of Hand of the Apprentice, and monk can buy access with a 1st or 2nd level feat.

How are they getting it at 1st level?

I don't remember the level of the feat, therefore 1st or 2nd.

[N N 959]

Ezekieru wrote:

Monks CAN get weapon critical specialization through a feat choice (and if they picked up Monastic Weaponry, they can get it for whatever Monk weapons they have access to). Warpriest Clerics can get the critical specialization effects from their deity's favor weapon.

Okay, I didn't check the Monk feats, but you only get it for Monk Weapons if you take two feats: Brawling Focus (only unarmed attacks) and Monastic Weaponry. The upside is you get it at 2nd level instead of 5 (or 3 for Bladed Ally Champion).

So yeah, if it cost two feats to get crit spec to a small selection of weapons, I would probably consider that a balanced trade off. But...

Quote:

They probably thought crits you knew you'd get were already good enough with Devise a Strategem without adding riders.

...is what I think is the real culprit as well. You'd be setting up a non-martial class to be seen as the one that crits the most when it attacks. That might have the gameplay experience of making the class seem way more effective in combat than Paizo wants.

[Squiggit]

N N 959 wrote:

You'd be setting up a non-martial class

Just a correction, Investigators are Martial this edition.

[N N 959]

Squiggit wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

You'd be setting up a non-martial class

Just a correction, Investigators are Martial this edition.

Are you basing that on them having martial weapon proficiency, or is there some type of list?

I'm using the term in terms of classes whose primary focus is combat. Fighter, Barbarian, Champion, Monk and arguably the Rogue and Ranger. The Investigator isn't really in that league of combatants/damage dealers, though it does seem combat enhanced since the playtest.

[Gisher]

I put together a quick list of straightforward ways to get critical effects on weapons that work well with Investigator abilities. More complicated ways to get other options may be possible.

Spoiler:

Monk Multiclass Archetype

Feat Chain
Monk Dedication
Brawling Focus

Good Weapons
Fist (unarmed, agile, and finesse)
Gauntlet (agile)
Spiked Gauntlet (agile)
Various other unarmed attacks

-----

Feat Chain
Monk Dedication
Brawling Focus
+
Monastic Weapons

Good Weapons
Fist (unarmed, agile, and finesse)
Gauntlet (agile)
Spiked Gauntlet (agile)
Various other unarmed attacks
+
Fighting Fan (agile and finesse)
Kama (agile)
Katar (agile)
Monkey's Fist (finesse)
Nunchaku (finesse)
Sai (agile and finesse)
Shuriken (agile)

-----

Catfolk Ancestry

Feat Chain
Catfolk Weapon Familiarity
Catfolk Weapon Rake

Good Weapons
Claw Blade (agile and finesse)
Hatchet (agile)
Kama (agile)
Kukri (agile)
Sickle (agile and finesse)

-----

Dwarven Ancestry

Feat Chain
Dwarven Weapon Familiarity
Dwarven Weapon Cunning

Good Weapons
Clan Dagger (agile)

-----

Elven Ancestry

Feat Chain
Elven Weapon Familiarity
Elven Weapon Elegance

Good Weapons
Elven Curve Blade (finesse)
Rapier (finesse)
Longbow
Composite Longbow
Shortbow
Composite Shortbow

-----

Gnome Ancestry

Feat Chain
Gnome Weapon Familiarity
Gnome Weapon Innovator

Good Weapons
Kukri (agile)

-----

Goblin Ancestry

Feat Chain
Goblin Weapon Familiarity
Goblin Weapon Frenzy

Good Weapons
Dogslicer (agile and finesse)

-----

Halfling Ancestry

Feat Chain
Halfling Weapon Familiarity
Halfling Weapon Trickster

Good Weapons
Filcher's Fork (agile and finesse)
Halfling Sling Staff
Shortsword (agile and finesse)
Sling

-----

Hobgoblin Ancestry

Feat Chain
Hobgoblin Weapon Familiarity
Hobgoblin Weapon Discipline

Good Weapons
Rapier (finesse)
Shortsword (agile and finesse)
Sword Cane (agile and finesse)

-----

Orc Ancestry

Feat Chain
Orc Weapon Familiarity
Orc Weapon Carnage

Good Weapons
Orc Knuckle Dagger (agile)

-----

Tengu Ancestry

Feat Chain
Tengu Weapon Familiarity
Tengu Weapon Study

Good Weapons
Any two of the following...

Rapier (finesse)
Shortsword (agile and finesse)
Sword Cane (agile and finesse)
Wakizashi (agile and finesse)

[Deadmanwalking]

N N 959 wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

You'd be setting up a non-martial class

Just a correction, Investigators are Martial this edition.

Are you basing that on them having martial weapon proficiency, or is there some type of list?

I'm using the term in terms of classes whose primary focus is combat. Fighter, Barbarian, Champion, Monk and arguably the Rogue and Ranger. The Investigator isn't really in that league of combatants/damage dealers, though it does seem combat enhanced since the playtest.

'Martial' is usually used in Pathfinder and D&D circles as an antonym of 'Caster'. Since Investigators lack spellcasting or an equivalent ability they are generally considered martial characters by that definition.

Also, I think the line between Investigator and Rogue in terms of combat prowess is pretty narrow all things considered, Rogue is more combat related but not a lot more. If you want to propose a 'Skill Focused' category rather than a 'Combat Focused' category like most other martials are in, they should both be in it. Swashbuckler, despite a few bonus Skill tricks, is not in that category nor is Ranger, but Rogue is if Investigator is, IMO.

[N N 959]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

'Martial' is usually used in Pathfinder and D&D circles as an antonym of 'Caster'. Since Investigators lack spellcasting or an equivalent ability they are generally considered martial characters by that definition.

Also, I think the line between Investigator and Rogue in terms of combat prowess is pretty narrow all things considered, Rogue is more combat related but not a lot more. If you want to propose a 'Skill Focused' category rather than a 'Combat Focused' category like most other martials are in, they should both be in it. Swashbuckler, despite a few bonus Skill tricks, is not in that category nor is Ranger, but Rogue is if Investigator is, IMO.

Back in the 1e AD&D days, there were no skill-based classes, so it makes sense to divide the classes into casters and martials. By definition, martial, means war-like or reference to someone who is a war-like or a warrior. That is definitely not the Investigator as a concept. in PF2. Now, the PF2 version appears to offers some martial arts flavor a la Downy Jrs. Sherlock Holmes character and maybe even Inspector Crusoe's battles with his butler. But the all three Methodologies are, ostensibly, about problem solving problems. This is in contrast to the Ranger or Fighter or Barbarian, whose tracts are predominantly about different methods of combat.

The Rogue is definitely a mixture of skill/combat. Traditionally it is considered a martial, but the PF2 Rackets seem focused on skills rather than combat. I would agree that a more modern assessment might put the Rogue and Investigator in the same corner. Since the Playtest, the Investigator has certainly been given a boost in combat viability. Though it's not clear how that translates into damage dealt compared to the Rogue.

I would submit a more accurate term for martial would be any class whose primary agency is via physical attacks. This would include all the non-casters, exclude the Investigator, and leave the Rogue on the outside looking in.

[Deadmanwalking]

That would potentially make sense in terms of etymology, but trying to restructure how an entire community uses terminology based on 'it's more accurate to the etymology' is pretty much a lost cause.

People use the terminology in the way I discuss above, and you using a different definition will not change that, it will just result in failed communications between you and everyone else going forward.

[N N 959]

If I've learned anything about on-line communities is there is no such thing as everyone doing it the same way. I doubt I am alone in viewing the Investigator as a non-martial. So I think everyone understands me just fine.

[Varus Wreckpoint]

Additional ways to get crit specialisations for an investigator:

Mauler Archetype

Archer Archetype

Viking Archetype (Viking weapon specialization feat)

Owlbear Claw (Talisman)

Hold Mark (Orc feat)

Turbine Rowe Lumberjack (Axe thrower feat)

Martial Artist Archetype (Brawling focus feat)

[coriolis]

N N 959 wrote:

...and maybe even Inspector Crusoe's battles with his butler.

I assume you mean Inspector Clouzot from the Pink Panther films? Nice reference, and could certainly be seen as another example of the way stratagems work, especially the later movies where Clouzot expected to be attacked every time he came home.

[Salamileg]

The vast majority of rogues don't get it either, given that it's only available to Ruffians.

[Djinn71]

Salamileg wrote:

The vast majority of rogues don't get it either, given that it's only available to Ruffians.

Actually Ruffians just get it a bit earlier, all Rogues get it at 5th level through Weapon Tricks.

[Deadmanwalking]

N N 959 wrote:

If I've learned anything about on-line communities is there is no such thing as everyone doing it the same way. I doubt I am alone in viewing the Investigator as a non-martial. So I think everyone understands me just fine.

Squiggit didn't seem to, and I've seen others confused by it in other threads. Heck, I was confused by it at least once in a previous thread.

You can obviously phrase things however you like, but you're actively decreasing the number of people who understand you by using terminology in a non-standard way without explanation. If your goal is clear communication, this is a poor way to achieve it.

Salamileg wrote:

The vast majority of rogues don't get it either, given that it's only available to Ruffians.

This isn't correct. Ruffians can get it earlier, but access to Crit Specialization effects is part of the 5th level Weapon Training feature on Rogues in general. They only get it on flat-footed targets, but they do get it.

[Gisher]

Varus Wreckpoint wrote:

Additional ways to get crit specialisations for an investigator:

Mauler Archetype

Archer Archetype

Viking Archetype (Viking weapon specialization feat)

Owlbear Claw (Talisman)

Hold Mark (Orc feat)

Turbine Rowe Lumberjack (Axe thrower feat)

Martial Artist Archetype (Brawling focus feat)

Thanks! I'll have to take a look at those.

[Gisher]

To me, Mauler, Viking, and Lumberjack are fairly high investment for little return. Martial Artist gets you Brawling weapons without the tough Monk MC prerequisites, so that's nice.

Archer and Hold Mark are stand-outs because they only require a single feat of investment. For Hold Mark, I like Torch because the weapons list includes items with the trip, parry, and thrown traits. Adding Orc Weapon Familiarity also gets you the 1d6 Orc Knuckle Dagger, so (Orc Weapon Familiarity + Hold Mark (Torch)) is a much better combo than (Orc Weapon Familiarity + Orc Weapon Carnage).

I'm going to leave consumables like the Owlbear Claw off my list.

So here is an updated list of options.

Spoiler:

Catfolk Ancestry

Feat Chain
Catfolk Weapon Familiarity
Catfolk Weapon Rake

Good Weapons
Claw Blade (agile and finesse)
Hatchet (agile)
Kama (agile)
Kukri (agile)
Sickle (agile and finesse)

-----

Dwarven Ancestry

Feat Chain
Dwarven Weapon Familiarity
Dwarven Weapon Cunning

Good Weapons
Clan Dagger (agile)

-----

Elven Ancestry

Feat Chain
Elven Weapon Familiarity
Elven Weapon Elegance

Good Weapons
Elven Curve Blade (finesse)
Rapier (finesse)
Longbow
Composite Longbow
Shortbow
Composite Shortbow

-----

Gnome Ancestry

Feat Chain
Gnome Weapon Familiarity
Gnome Weapon Innovator

Good Weapons
Kukri (agile)

-----

Goblin Ancestry

Feat Chain
Goblin Weapon Familiarity
Goblin Weapon Frenzy

Good Weapons
Dogslicer (agile and finesse)

-----

Halfling Ancestry

Feat Chain
Halfling Weapon Familiarity
Halfling Weapon Trickster

Good Weapons
Filcher's Fork (agile and finesse)
Halfling Sling Staff
Shortsword (agile and finesse)
Sling

-----

Hobgoblin Ancestry

Feat Chain
Hobgoblin Weapon Familiarity
Hobgoblin Weapon Discipline

Good Weapons
Rapier (finesse)
Shortsword (agile and finesse)
Sword Cane (agile and finesse)

-----

Orc Ancestry

Feat Chain
Orc Weapon Familiarity
Orc Weapon Carnage

Good Weapons
Orc Knuckle Dagger (agile)

-----

Feat Chain
Hold Mark (Axe)

Good Weapons
Hatchet (agile)
Light Pick (agile)

-----

Feat Chain
Hold Mark (Shield)

Good Weapons
Light Hammer (agile)

-----

Feat Chain
Hold Mark (Torch)

Good Weapons
Dagger (agile and finesse)
Main-gauche (agile and finesse)
Sickle (agile and finesse)
Starknife (agile and finesse)

-----

Feat Chain
Hold Mark (Torch)
+
Orc Weapon Familiarity

Good Weapons
Dagger (agile and finesse)
Main-gauche (agile and finesse)
Sickle (agile and finesse)
Starknife (agile and finesse)
+
Orc Knuckle Dagger (agile)

-----

Tengu Ancestry

Feat Chain
Tengu Weapon Familiarity
Tengu Weapon Study

Good Weapons
Any two of the following...

Rapier (finesse)
Shortsword (agile and finesse)
Sword Cane (agile and finesse)
Wakizashi (agile and finesse)

-----

Archer Archetype

Feat Chain
Archer Dedication - at Expert proficiency

Good Weapons
Crossbow
Hand Crossbow
Heavy Crossbow
Longbow
Composite Longbow
Shortbow
Composite Shortbow

-----

Martial Artist Archetype

Feat Chain
Martial Artist Dedication
Brawling Focus

Good Weapons
Fist (unarmed, agile, and finesse)
Gauntlet (agile)
Spiked Gauntlet (agile)
Various agile or finesse unarmed strikes

-----

Mauler Archetype

Feat Chain
Mauler Dedication - at Expert proficiency
Takedown Expert

Good Weapons
Staff (club) - if used in one hand

-----

Monk Multiclass Archetype

Feat Chain
Monk Dedication
Brawling Focus

Good Weapons
Fist (unarmed, agile, and finesse)
Gauntlet (agile)
Spiked Gauntlet (agile)
Various agile or finesse unarmed strikes

-----

Feat Chain
Monk Dedication
Brawling Focus
+
Monastic Weapons

Good Weapons
Fist (unarmed, agile, and finesse)
Gauntlet (agile)
Spiked Gauntlet (agile)
Various agile or finesse unarmed strikes
+
Fighting Fan (agile and finesse)
Kama (agile)
Katar (agile)
Monkey's Fist (finesse)
Nunchaku (finesse)
Sai (agile and finesse)
Shuriken (agile)

-----

Turpin Rowe Lumberjack Archetype

Feat Chain
Turpin Rowe Lumberjack Dedication
Axe Thrower

Good Weapons
Hatchet (agile)

-----

Viking Archetype

Feat Chain
Viking Dedication
Viking Weapon Familiarity
Viking Weapon Specialist

Good Weapons
Hatchet (agile)
Shortsword (agile and finesse)

[N N 959]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

If I've learned anything about on-line communities is there is no such thing as everyone doing it the same way. I doubt I am alone in viewing the Investigator as a non-martial. So I think everyone understands me just fine.

Squiggit didn't seem to, and I've seen others confused by it in other threads. Heck, I was confused by it at least once in a previous thread.

You can obviously phrase things however you like, but you're actively decreasing the number of people who understand you by using terminology in a non-standard way without explanation. If your goal is clear communication, this is a poor way to achieve it.

Your definition for martial is not nearly as universal as you think it is. In 4e, Bards are considered martial and there are 5e fan sites that define martial the same way I do. But you're welcome to insist your definition is the only correct one.

Quote:

People use the terminology in the way I discuss above, and you using a different definition will not change that..

For the record, every change in the way a word is used or defined starts with one person.

[Cintra Bristol]

Actually, in 4E, Bards had the Arcane power source. (The Skald was both Arcane and Martial.)

But then again, I'm capable of mulling over whether something I just said would be more correctly identified as Pedantic or Didactic. That way lies madness.

[Mellored]

There are a few Investigator feats that do extra stuff on a crit.

Not weapon specific, but still there.

[N N 959]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

'Martial' is usually used in Pathfinder and D&D circles as an antonym of 'Caster'. Since Investigators lack spellcasting or an equivalent ability they are generally considered martial characters by that definition.***
People use the terminology in the way I discuss above.....

Is that so?

Blaydson wrote:

Skilled

Morinn (Dwarf Rogue [Ruffian])
Luz (Human Investigator [Interrogator])
Milo (Halfling Rogue [Thief])
Ottor (Goblin Rogue [Thief])
Kurk (Human Bard [Polymath])
Eliza (Elf/Duskwalker Ranger)
Natalia (Human Bard [Maestro])
Klim (Human Ranger)
Sindarin (Half-Elf Ranger)

Rangers are arguably Martial characters, and Bards are arguably casters, but think they both sit in this area nicely.

Martial
Nico (Human Fighter)
Joran (Human Barbarian [Giant])
Cobb (Human Fighter)
Limere (Halfling Champion [Liberator])
Talina (Human Fighter)
Takara (Tengu Swashbuckler [Fencer])

Caster
Inathel (Elf Wizard [Enchanter])
Freda (Half-Elf Alchemist [Bomber])
Ruhka (Iruxi Druid [Storm])
Haechi (Kobold Wizard [Evocation])

Again, Alchemists could be argued to be a Skilled character, but as a Bomber, I think being a Pseudo-caster makes about as much sense.

As I suggested, you're deluding yourself if you think your definition of these terms is the only one people use.

[Deadmanwalking]

N N 959 wrote:

Is that so?

Generally, yes. Nothing is ever an absolute. But when people talk about martials in isolation they are usually talking about them in contrast to casters, as a dichotomy between the two.

N N 959 wrote:

As I suggested, you're deluding yourself if you think your definition of these terms is the only one people use.

Of course it isn't. My point was always and pretty much exclusively that the definition I'm referring to is sufficiently common that using a different one without explanation will decrease the number of people who understand what the hell you're talking about.

If you want to explain that you'd consider the Investigator a 'skill' class rather than a martial, that's fine and people will understand it because you're explaining your definition by doing so. But that's not what you did or what I was trying to convince you not to do.

What you did was say 'Investigator is not a martial.' Full stop, no explanation, and then expected people to intuit your definition. And that's bad communication given how common the martial/caster dichotomy is and you should stop doing it.

Heck, even the post you quote gives exactly such an explanation implicitly by listing the three categories.

[First World Bard]

Might be worthwhile for the Investigator to stock up on Owlbear Claws.

[Gisher]

First World Bard wrote:

Might be worthwhile for the Investigator to stock up on Owlbear Claws.

If you went that route then taking Talisman Dabbler might be a good option.

[Staffan Johansson]

N N 959 wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

You'd be setting up a non-martial class

Just a correction, Investigators are Martial this edition.

Are you basing that on them having martial weapon proficiency, or is there some type of list?

Investigators have the same weapon proficiency progression as barbarians, champions, monks, rangers, rogues, and swashbucklers: expert at 5th level and master at 13th. To me, that counts as martial. They also have a core ability that boosts damage, albeit from a rather low baseline.

[First World Bard]

Gisher wrote:

First World Bard wrote:

Might be worthwhile for the Investigator to stock up on Owlbear Claws.

If you went that route then taking Talisman Dabbler might be a good option.

It's a pretty good dedication if you don't have plans for a different one. (My Investigator went Medic). Two free claws a day is nothing to sneeze at at 2nd level. That said, Owlbear Claws are level 1 items, so eventually they will be chump change and you can just buy as many as you need without appreciably dinging your wealth.

[Squiggit]

I don't think it matters that much how you label classes.

But it does feel kind of arbitrary to have seven classes with the same basic progression and then say one of them doesn't count for... reasons that are never really defined all that clearly.

And then it's just kind of silly to insist that people who don't agree with that are "delusional"