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In my group, the downtime rules always seem to break down in the same way. One players gets excited about them, decides to start their own tannery or apothecary shop or whatever, and then sits in the corner and does their own thing. They whip up a cool spreadsheet and push capital around, but it usually turns into little more than 'you make 15 silver pieces and your shop is the location of the next quest hook.' The rest of the players and the GM make appreciative sounds, but usually decide that the system is more trouble than it's worth.
So my question to the forum: When you're running the game, how do you support that one player who gets excited for downtime? How do you make sure they get a little spotlight time without bogging down the rest of the table?
Hahaha Im totally that player.
The funniest it ever got to me was when I was spending gold by the tens of thousands on this system, while the other party members where buying gear. I had a multitude of buildings and workers. None of it ever made anything haha.
Usually it doesnt get to that point :P.
Well OP, I dont have answer for you. Hell, I dont think I ever expected anything out of it even. I just enjoy the little RP you just said at start and end of mission of having everyone in one of my HUBs and that is it.
The easy answer is depending on how much a player invest and on what it is invested. Have NPC start to react differently to the player, since he is more than just an adventurer, he is a possible *.
* be it contractor or partner in business...
This wouldnt leave the "main mission", but gives callbacks to the player that the game recognizes his investment.
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Well, my general rules with the downtime stuff is:
1) If we are going to use downtime rules extensively, EVERY player should be involved with it.
2) If EVERY player is not in on the downtime rules, then the downtime rules for those that are into it are relegated to off screen time (ie discord or similar communication platforms) and only the roleplaying aspects make an appearance in the actual gameplay.
As long as everyone is having fun, you are playing the game correctly.
The headline made me smile.
I didn't offer downtime for my campaigns so far. One player expressed interest, but since most of them are not the type of player for this, I went for more interactive events.
Speaking of player types: Let's apply the (relatively) simple Bartle model to downtime. It calls out four player types: Achievers want to accomplish something tangible, explorers want to explore rules and story, killers want to compete and win, socializers want to interact peacefully with virtual and real persons. Most players can be put in multiple categories, but often enough there is a dominant one.
So an achiever can enjoy downtime - building something and watching it grow is satisfying. However, an achiever first has to consider a downtime project relevant enough to spend resources on it - after all, there are already other long-term goals to pursue, like becoming level 20.
Explorers don't get much out of downtime, appearantly. Sure, there are minor random events for your shop, but that seems to be everything you can explore.
A killer might be interested in making their shop good enough to get the competition out of business - but rules for such conflicts don't exist.
Finally a socializer will just be bored if everyone pursues their own little downtime projects, without any interaction among them or with NPCs.
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I might be missing a few things, but it looks like the original downtime system urgently needs some modifications and additions - if you want to make it interesting for all your players. Given that Paizo introduced cooperative crafting in Unchained and turned downtime into a regular game mode in PF2, they seem to be aware of the shortcoming.
When I am a player, I am that player. But I usually have one in each of my games. We handle all the downtime over email (my players are scattered throughout the country...some of them I've been playing with since ALL the way back in 1990). If other players happen to be involved for one reason or another in a particular aspect, we just include them in the email chain. I try to take care of all that type of stuff over email so it doesn't bog down the game or take away from other players' time during the game. I also try as best I can to integrate what they are doing into the story line as much as possible, I give bonus XP if they are doing clever things (I judge what is clever), and occasionally there are negative consequences to what they are doing. But the key for me is to handle it all over e-mail.
While not using the downtime system in PF, the campaign I am running in Magnimar has a significant downtime-esque component.
All the PC's have joint ownership in a business and have employees with managers & foremen to run it, they even have a barrister on retainer.
At the same time, one of the PC's fell into leading one of the Sczarni gangs, and another started a clinic in the Underbridge, has gained enough notoriety to obtain sponsorship by an aristocrat family branching other clinics to other districts in Magnimar.
All of this is heading towards the long-term stated goal of teh campaign, but were never "required" for the end goal, it has become a means to an end. The main focus is still urban, sewer and aquatic adventures, but the divergent "downtime" businesses provide for a variety of hooks.
If EVERY player is not in on the downtime rules, then the downtime rules for those that are into it are relegated to off screen time (ie discord or similar communication platforms) and only the roleplaying aspects make an appearance in the actual gameplay.
This is the bit that gives me pause. It costs money to make downtime work, meaning that the player who is investing time and effort into downtime is doing so instead of buying gear. That means that more than the "roleplaying aspects" are appearing in the gameplay.
I'm beginning to wonder if there's some way to translate downtime bonuses into actual mechanical bonuses.
This is the bit that gives me pause. It costs money to make downtime work, meaning that the player who is investing time and effort into downtime is doing so instead of buying gear. That means that more than the "roleplaying aspects" are appearing in the gameplay.
I'm beginning to wonder if there's some way to translate downtime bonuses into actual mechanical bonuses.
I've had players invest in magic shops / weapon shops / etc. and when they sell gear they've found, instead of the standard 50% of value I let them sell it back for 75-90% of value, depending on how much effort and coin they've put into their investments. I've also let them "special order" equipment (with a suitable acquisition / transportation delay) that they might not otherwise find, as they are leveraging the shop / guild / coster to acquire that equipment. Generally, the player with the idea to do so collects funds from the entire group so they can all benefit from his or her efforts. End result is more coin for what they find, and an easier job getting special stuff. Not sure if this example helps or not, but I've had multiple parties take this approach. They've also purchased taverns in the past (or invested), which leads to more rumors, which leads to bonuses on certain rolls (maybe they've heard so much about a specific enemy that when they do encounter him/her they get a +1 or a +2 to hit, or maybe bonuses to saves). That sort of thing.
This is the bit that gives me pause. It costs money to make downtime work, meaning that the player who is investing time and effort into downtime is doing so instead of buying gear. That means that more than the "roleplaying aspects" are appearing in the gameplay.
I'm beginning to wonder if there's some way to translate downtime bonuses into actual mechanical bonuses.
There are two ways to look at it (or more but I'm simplifying it), 1) The player doesn't care about the slight mechanical disadvantages that the downtime activities cost him and appreciates the roleplay aspect of investing in the community to a higher degree than a few extra bonsues... or 2) That the GM in question has methods in which to translate the expended resources into similar mechanical benefits that the player who invested in downtime activities gets to take advantage of.
For example, a player getting discounts at the shops they have personally started, discounted spellcasting from casters they have personally helped get a start in the world, expedited magic item creation from the cabal of spellweavers they personally groomed to perform a certain role... Really, there are a lot of possibilities in which the downtime activities can greatly impact a character's experience.
You realize that the PF downtime rules are really a tremendous method of up-powering a character? If your downtime activity generates a unit of capital (say Magic worth 100 gp), you can then buy that unit of capital for half price (in this example 50 gp), and then spend it on things appropriate for that specific type of capital (in this example with magic capital, that's things like spell research, magic item crafting, etc) at full value (of 100 gp). The player is getting a 50% discount on whatever goods and services they buy with capital... That's a pretty big mechanical bonus.
Maybe we're doing it wrong. In my experience, it's a lot of time and effort to barely break even.
Maybe we're doing it wrong. In my experience, it's a lot of time and effort to barely break even.
Well, considering that most businesses end up paying some form of taxes just for existing in a kingdom, the downtime rules aren't necessarily supposed to be a straight increase in power.
30 days of downtime, he has 2400 gp market value in scrolls (and 40 gp in pocket). He also has a business that will continue to generate capital and/or cash without him doing much.... If he had just scribed the scrolls with his 800 gp in hand, he would have 1600 gp market value in scrolls, no business, and no 40 gp in pocket.
One thing to keep in mind is that unless the PC is physically present to run his business (or has a cohort via Leadership or other means), there is diminishing returns from his business as corruption, theft and other things occur over time.
Well for me downtime help a lot when you are running a game with low progressions. This is because in low progressions you don't gain to much gold. Also since I'm an arcanist it helps me to research spell for future lv up I get ( to explain in any campaign how do I get those spell and the time I spent in researching), for other I love to meet new people who come to play the campaign and how we meet, get some information our next adventure, if I run a shop talk to the manager I put in how it's going and what problem we have
I love to much the downtime, the only part I hate is to rule a settlement or a kingdom because I feel it like a jail I can't go to far or go to an adventure in other countries for to much time (example if I rule magnimar I can't go to an adventure to numeria fo more than 2 months)
Yeah, it's not just crafting of items. "Oh high priest, I will build a shrine to the glory of Abadar if you resurrect my dear Friend Groomphar the Gormless...". Everything from research to bribes to law enforcement... All at 1/2 price to cash, assuming you generate the capital. That's a LOT of mechanical reward. Quite possibly too much for most campaigns.
High priest (asmodeus): sure my friend but first firm this paper and i will start
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If you want to see how to exploit the Downtime rules, read Dave the Commoner.
Turns out, the rp aspect of it was the only thing they found fun. They liked being able to say "I go work a shift in the kitchens" or "I call this one "Champ's Brew" or "I rebuild this paladin order". But the mechanics of it just kept getting pushed to the wayside.
In my games, I've come to think of the downtime systems as a "tool to scaffold imagination." You put in work up front to create something mechanically, and that gives you the ability to interact with it during RP. However, once that entity is established, the most you can get out of the system as a roleplayer is to use the lists of downtime events as inspiration for other encounters. The mechanics become irrelevant to what you really want: the feeling that you've built something and had an impact within the game world.
YMMV, but my conclusion is that the feeling of agency is fun. The mechanics are there to support that, not to exist for their own sake.