One of my players just picked it up. Good Lord if ever there was a feat to expect table variation.
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Terrible feat imo. Too vague. I hesitate to say too powerful because it's a lateral move but playing its mechanics straight turns it into a three action encounter ender which feels problematic. On the other hand it's really easy to find a reason why anyone might just refuse outright, which can make it too easy to shut down too.
Arguably something that shouldn't even be a feat at all, because trying to end a fight early with dialog doesn't feel like it should only be a level 15+ activity. The notion that it's impossible to talk down hostilities unless you're a legendary level 15 diplomat is just very weird and restrictive to me.
Not RAW, but if you're going to use it, tell the player in question if the NPCs are amenable to negotiation before they try. Had a player in another game left feeling really terrible when three times in a row the GM invoked the feat's veto clause, but only after the player spent actions and made their rolls.
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Yeah...honestly this is a bad feat IMO.
As a GM, no you're not getting out of combat (probably) with anyone. This is a 15th level feat, enemies at that level are likely to be things intent on killing you in the first place. Diplomacy probably just isn't an option in a lot of cases.
Or, in the off chance that murder isn't what they desire, they probably would listen to you without that feat.
This should really have had a more specific concrete effect, what exactly I'm not sure. And I get that because this is a social skill and you can't just give the player whatever they're asking (cause that could get crazy) that it's really hard to come up with an appropriate effect for the level but this is really lack luster.
1) Is the player supposed to make multiple rolls? Make an Impression and Request are both separate actions/activities. But the feat says mentions taking a penalty on your singular diplomacy check. Also, running those two as written, an enemy need to be friendly or helpful to make a request of them. You can't make someone hostile to friendly in one Make an Impression.
2) Does this work only work on one foe at a time? If so, does that change with the Group Impression feat?
3) What do people think of Assurance with it? That seems like it would only work on level 11 or lower foes when you are level 15.
4) Any syngery between this feat and fey fellowship? It doesn't seem to. The penalties for legendary negotiation and gladhand seem similar but distinct.
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Setting aside mechanical ambiguity, my inclination is to say that most rational creatures will at least hear you out if you roll high enough, but actually convincing them to let you go is going to depend on roleplay. I think the players need to be able to provide an argument that actually makes sense to the creatures in question. Because a blanket pass to shut down encounters is problematic.
What defines a rational creature is definitely up for interpretation, and will likely need to be handled on a creature to creature basis.
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I haven't seen it in play but as a GM I always make it clear that, once Encounter Mode begins and initiative is rolled, the time for negotiations has passed. The distinction between Exploration Mode and Encounter Mode is really helpful.
Legendary Negotiation lets players negotiate even after rolling initiaitve.
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I'm reminded of an Eberron Lich. He was in a book where most of the key players had charts telling you how they'd treat you at various stages of Diplomacy. The best you could get from him was an offer to be turned into undead so y'all could ally, killing you if you rejected his offer. That's him being helpful! All the other options were death with only the degree of malice changing. "I'm so sorry, but I can't have you live after finding me."
So sure, you turn the demon from hostile to indifferent (if lucky). But what does said demon do to people he's indifferent toward? Torture them. I suppose an Intimidate might make him wait until a better opportunity, which might be a poor strategy!
And the devil may simply kill you fast instead of slow. Or be canny enough to factor you into its long-term schemes. "Sure, this way to the guy holding me captive."
Also reminded of a module with a Solar guarding a seal which trapped an evil god. The holy & helpful Solar gives the party the opportunity to flee, but cannot accept you staying around at all since your presence represents an X factor with the multiverse at stake. Leave or die, with zero room for discussion. One must hope there's not a chatty or curious PC!
Anyway, the feat has a lot of utility, especially when fights are based on misunderstandings, yet I don't see it derailing core encounters. I can see it backfiring at times, as that new friend won't want you attacking his allies and you may just link encounters best met separately. Also not sure how well one could negotiate on behalf of the rest of the party. Sure, the monster's friendly to you, but that Barbarian looks nice and meaty and that Paladin surely won't appreciate what I'm planning.
I know its a great way to wait out the 1 minute onset on many of the non-injury Alchemist poisons.
Either give a gift, or have a Alchemist with legendary sneak apply...
Setting aside mechanical ambiguity, my inclination is to say that most rational creatures will at least hear you out if you roll high enough, but actually convincing them to let you go is going to depend on roleplay. I think the players need to be able to provide an argument that actually makes sense to the creatures in question. Because a blanket pass to shut down encounters is problematic.
What defines a rational creature is definitely up for interpretation, and will likely need to be handled on a creature to creature basis.
I agree. By level 15, most things prepared to fight you are probably not going to be convinced to do otherwise. I mean you have to actually offer them something they want, and probably want they want is for you to quit interfering with their evil plan.
So unless your negotiation is "Let us leave alive and we wont bother you and your evil scheme anymore" they're probably not interested.
Setting aside mechanical ambiguity, my inclination is to say that most rational creatures will at least hear you out if you roll high enough, but actually convincing them to let you go is going to depend on roleplay. I think the players need to be able to provide an argument that actually makes sense to the creatures in question. Because a blanket pass to shut down encounters is problematic.
What defines a rational creature is definitely up for interpretation, and will likely need to be handled on a creature to creature basis.
I agree. By level 15, most things prepared to fight you are probably not going to be convinced to do otherwise. I mean you have to actually offer them something they want, and probably want they want is for you to quit interfering with their evil plan.
So unless your negotiation is "Let us leave alive and we wont bother you and your evil scheme anymore" they're probably not interested.
I dunno. I'm running a fey based AP right now, and the book does mention how fey love stimulating conversation and it could potentially diffuse a violent encounter. This at least gives me some mechanics to do that. Soldiers can negotiate. Criminals can potentially be bribed. Even monsters might be persuaded to go for an easier meal.
Also, this can open the door for some deception. "Hey, look, we are actually here to join your cult. We may not look it, but we are all just crazy about Norgorber. But he's the god of secrets, you know?"
But you and Castilliano are correct that usually the people in charge of the evil scheme won't be talked out of it. The plot essential to encounters. But you might be able to bypass a lot of NPCs between you and those bosses.
One problem I have with the feat is 'trying to talk down petty criminals or soldiers' sounds more like a level 3 activity than a level 15 one. Something anyone should be able to attempt, not an endgame option. The issue isn't that it can't be a way to bypass NPCs, but that by the time you reach that level the stakes are usually expected to be much higher, you're more likely to be dealing with a villain's inner circle than hired muscle.
It's not exactly the equivalent of being able to disappear in broad daylight or steal the armor off someone's back in terms of extraordinary quality either.
The feat is fine in conception. It lets you use this mid-combat, not just before combat starts, to try to resolve an encounter through dialogue even if it violates the NPCs published morale criteria.
(The cutists, knowing they will be executed for their unspeakable crimes if captured or murdered in custody by other cultists, fight to the death.)
[PCs kill half the cultists, including the leader's children, then one of them fires up Legendary Negotiation.]
"Huh, maybe there's hope for us in surrender and potential redemption after all."
It also can give you a potential out when a combat is going very badly against you, negotiating a withdrawal or buying time for the rest of the party to heal/recover while you talk.
With APG's Bon Mot skill feat providing a very strong incentive for Sorcerers and Bards to go legendary in Diplomacy I imagine this will be taken more in the future than in the past.
What is this Bon Not you speak of?
One problem I have with the feat is 'trying to talk down petty criminals or soldiers' sounds more like a level 3 activity than a level 15 one. Something anyone should be able to attempt, not an endgame option. The issue isn't that it can't be a way to bypass NPCs, but that by the time you reach that level the stakes are usually expected to be much higher, you're more likely to be dealing with a villain's inner circle than hired muscle.
It's not exactly the equivalent of being able to disappear in broad daylight or steal the armor off someone's back in terms of extraordinary quality either.
To be fair, talking down some enemies is a thing you can do without feats. It's just usually something that requires special circumstances. In an AP, there are usually a few enemies that will talk before fighting or instead of it. Enemies you can talk down after attacks are rolled are rarer, but I've found at least one in a published AP that has a specific activity for convincing them to end the fight with DCs and everything.
But the default assumption is that an enemy with no listed peaceful solution is one you need to fight. This feat would let you try it with most enemies. There's just a lot of wiggle room for when and how it will work. Your co-player's situation being a prime example of that problem.
I will say that hopefully by the time you reach level 15 you hopefully know if this feat is a good choice... Usually there are strong indicators of who you'll be fighting for the rest of the adventure, and you have had a chance to get to know your GM. Doesn't help people who start at high levels, of course.
What is this Bon Not you speak of?From the Pathfinder Discord's associated google doc collecting reveals.
Bon Mot (Feat 1) One action. Roll diplomacy vs Will DC by ushering a short quip to distract the target. Critical success, the target takes a -3 penalty to perception and will saves for 1 minute. Success, as above but -2. Critical failure, your quip is atrocious and you take the penalty from a success. This ends if you issue another Bon Mot and get a success.
Enemies can end this early by retorting to your quip, with an action that has the concentrate trait.
This can be a different trait if appropriate.
GM determines the skill that qualifies for the retort, typically a linguistic charisma-based skill action.
Example:
your Bon Mot: "hah, look at him, he can't even succeed at a grapple"
enemy: "yes I can, watch this" athletics action to flex muscles
Superior to Demoralize if you're only caring about landing your own will save targeting spells or hoping to cost them an action to remove, still inferior to Demoralize if you want total debuffs to everything.
I mean having a 25% chance to end an encounter with a creature above your level is actually pretty dang good. That's better odds than most spells have of crit failure and that's before you take Incapacitation into account. Spells do something on most degrees of success though, as does Scare to Death.
But the other thing is that there's a lot of utility in talking down a bunch of lower level enemies. Focus fire from level 14 and below enemies can put a level 15 PC on the ground just fine, and bypassing those groups quickly costs precious expenditure of resources.
Also, that thing you invested so much in being good at is still maybe the best skill in the game for out of combat uses now that Perception is out of the running. Not being able to consistently one round end every encounter on top of that isn't the worst thing in the world.