You can buy common formulas at the Price listed on Table 6–13, or you can hire an NPC to let you copy their formula for the same Price. A purchased formula is typically a schematic on rolled‑up parchment of light Bulk. You can copy a formula into your formula book in 1 hour, either from a schematic or directly from someone else’s formula book.
So, unless they decide to charge each other, yes.
Where are you getting "free" from?
Crafting only halves the price, and only if you spend enough days to do so.
Because the only cost involved in copying a formula is in obtaining the formula. Normally this involves either buying it, or paying an NPC to look at their book. If the two PCs aren't charging each other, the cost to obtain the Formula is 0.
Yes unlike Learn a Spell for wizards/arcane evolution sorcerers trading spells, there's no required cost for learning formula, provided you have access to the formula and time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You still need to Craft it, which I quoted earlier.
That has its own costs.
You don't get anything for free in this game.
It says the Crafting Skill, not the Craft Activity. It also specifies that it only takes 1 hour.
Without any further specifics, all that can really mean is that you have to be Trained in Crafting.
As the title.
Two Alchemists are in a group, and decide to dedicate time to trading industry secrets.0) 1 hour per Formula.
1) Is there a Cost involved?
2) Is there a Skill check involved?Couldn't tell just from reading Formulas or Crafting myself.
Cheers!
From how I read it:
0) Yes, it takes 1 hour per formula
1) Unless they decide to charge each other, no.
2) No skill check involved.
"You can buy common formulas at the Price listed on Table 6–13, or you can hire an NPC to let you copy their formula for the same Price. A purchased formula is typically a schematic on rolled-up parchment of light Bulk. You can copy a formula into your formula book in 1 hour, either from a schematic or directly from someone else’s formula book. If you have a formula, you can Craft a copy of it using the Crafting skill. Formulas for uncommon items and rare items are usually significantly more valuable—if you can find them at all!"
The second part, where it says if you ahve a formula you can Craft, yadda yadda, I beleive that's in case you, as an Alchemist, want to Craft a formula in order to sell it, or to give it to another Alchemist without having to give them your Formula book. If they both have access to each other's Formula books, this is unnecessary, you can just copy directly in 1 hour.
So.
0) Takes 1 hour per formula
1) No cost.
2) No skill check.Free exchange between Alchemists.
Yes. Go forth and spread alchemical knowledge in Golarion and whatnot.
|
Nefreet,
Compare to two Wizards sharing spells.
Yes the Wizards have to pay for the Ink and succeed on a Check (which frankly, was why I was asking in the first place, coming from a Wizardly framework), but they are essentially treating the other Wizard's spellbook like a bunch of Scrolls that they did not purchase but to which they have temporary access. The linked text (above) simply does not have that provision.
Does that make sense?
Also, yes, this is for PFS!
|
There's some ambiguity in the line: "If you have a formula, you can Craft a copy of it using the Crafting skill." Was the intent that the copy referred to in the line is identical to the schematic referenced in the previous lines, so that the original line describes the process of making a schematic?
ETA: Nefreet, under your interpretation what would you assign as the DC for the Crafting check to copy the formula, and how much would it cost?
|
Okay. So let's try this again.
If your argument is "you can hire an NPC to let you copy their formula", that won't work in Society for two reasons: 1) NPCs and PCs are distinctly different designations, and 2) you can't pay or give money to other PCs.
If your argument is "it says the Crafting Skill, not the Craft Activity", then which subset of the Crafting skill is it? Recall Knowledge? Repair? The only subset that makes sense is the Craft activity. The only change is that you only need spend 1 hour Crafting, rather than X number of days.
The sections that we've quoted need to be read together in their entirety:
"You can buy common formulas at the Price listed on Table 6–13, or you can hire an NPC to let you copy their formula for the same Price. A purchased formula is typically a schematic on rolled-up parchment of light Bulk. You can copy a formula into your formula book in 1 hour, either from a schematic or directly from someone else’s formula book. If you have a formula, you can Craft a copy of it using the Crafting skill."
This lets you do 3 things:
1) buy the formula
2) pay an NPC
3) craft the formula
All of those are going to cost you money.
Okay. So let's try this again.
If your argument is "you can hire an NPC to let you copy their formula", that won't work in Society for two reasons: 1) NPCs and PCs are distinctly different designations, and 2) you can't pay or give money to other PCs.
If your argument is "it says the Crafting Skill, not the Craft Activity", then which subset of the Crafting skill is it? Recall Knowledge? Repair? The only subset that makes sense is the Craft activity. The only change is that you only need spend 1 hour Crafting, rather than X number of days.
The sections that we've quoted need to be read together in their entirety:
"You can buy common formulas at the Price listed on Table 6–13, or you can hire an NPC to let you copy their formula for the same Price. A purchased formula is typically a schematic on rolled-up parchment of light Bulk. You can copy a formula into your formula book in 1 hour, either from a schematic or directly from someone else’s formula book. If you have a formula, you can Craft a copy of it using the Crafting skill."
This lets you do 3 things:
1) buy the formula
2) pay an NPC
3) craft the formulaAll of those are going to cost you money.
The first 2 lines pertain to obtaining a formula to copy.
The remainder of the paragraph is about copying the formula after you have obtained it.
If someone else in your party is willing to share the formula with you, there is no need to obtain it, as you already have it.
Even if you believe that you have to pay the cost of obtainment a second time in order to Craft a copy, 2 x 0 is still 0.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay. So let's try this again.
If your argument is "you can hire an NPC to let you copy their formula", that won't work in Society for two reasons: 1) NPCs and PCs are distinctly different designations, and 2) you can't pay or give money to other PCs.
If your argument is "it says the Crafting Skill, not the Craft Activity", then which subset of the Crafting skill is it? Recall Knowledge? Repair? The only subset that makes sense is the Craft activity. The only change is that you only need spend 1 hour Crafting, rather than X number of days.
The sections that we've quoted need to be read together in their entirety:
"You can buy common formulas at the Price listed on Table 6–13, or you can hire an NPC to let you copy their formula for the same Price. A purchased formula is typically a schematic on rolled-up parchment of light Bulk. You can copy a formula into your formula book in 1 hour, either from a schematic or directly from someone else’s formula book. If you have a formula, you can Craft a copy of it using the Crafting skill."
This lets you do 3 things:
1) buy the formula
2) pay an NPC
3) craft the formulaAll of those are going to cost you money.
I think the problem here is you're confusing copying a formula into the formula book with crafting a formula copy. They aren't the same thing.
Copying the formula into a formula book costs nothing in and of itself. What costs money is usually getting the formula in the first place. You can buy them, or pay an NPC. But you could also get them as loot, or maybe an NPC decides to let you copy a formula for free as a quest reward.
Crafting a formula copy follows the Crafting rules (although it is unclear if it follows them to the letter or it only takes one hour). You need to have the formula already, either as it's own thing, or from your formula book. Then you can hand over the formula (or sell it, etc) without having to hand over your formula book.
If we followed your interpretation of the rules, which is to say that copying into the formula book is the same as crafting a formula, we'd need to pay twice. First to get the formula, and then to Craft it. That, to me, is obviously not intended.
|
|
I will add some argumentation to put further distance between Alchemists sharing Formulas and Wizards sharing Spells.
A Formula is little more than a mundane recipe. Maybe a list of 29 ingredients, with order of operations, timing, and precise measurements. It takes an hour to write down.
A Spell builds on this mundane concept by adding magical materials and processes to the ritual of transcription. This is represented in an additional cost in Ink and having to succeed at a Check. It takes an hour per spell level to write down.
|
|
I think the problem here is you're confusing copying a formula into the formula book with crafting a formula copy. They aren't the same thing.
They are exactly the same thing.
And, no, you're not always paying twice. You're paying once. Unless you hire an NPC. Then, of course, since you're hiring someone, you're going to pay more. That's just capitalism.
1) Buy a formula. For argument's sake, let's say it's a 1st level Formula. Pay 1gp.
2) Hire an NPC. Pay them 1gp for the access. Now you craft a copy. Pay anywhere between 5sp to 1gp.
3) You have a formula you've found, either in the loot pile of the dragon's hoard or the other Alchemist in your party. Now you craft a copy. Pay anywhere between 5sp to 1gp.
Three different price ranges for three different levels of access depending on where in the world you're at.
I think the problem here is you're confusing copying a formula into the formula book with crafting a formula copy. They aren't the same thing.They are exactly the same thing.
And, no, you're not always paying twice. You're paying once. Unless you hire an NPC. Then, of course, since you're hiring someone, you're going to pay more. That's just capitalism.
1) Buy a formula. For argument's sake, let's say it's a 1st level Formula. Pay 1gp.
2) Hire an NPC. Pay them 1gp for the access. Now you craft a copy. Pay anywhere between 5sp to 1gp.
3) You have a formula you've found, either in the loot pile of the dragon's hoard or the other Alchemist in your party. Now you craft a copy. Pay anywhere between 5sp to 1gp.Three different price ranges for three different levels of access depending on where in the world you're at.
That doesn't make sense with the rules.
A purchased formula is typically a schematic on rolled up parchment of light Bulk. You can copy a formula into your formula book in 1 hour, either from a schematic or directly from someone else’s formula book.
A purchased Formula is identical to a found Formula. There is no reason copying a purchased Formula into your Formula Book would be any different than copying a found Formula, or a Formula from someone else's Formula Book.
I think the problem here is you're confusing copying a formula into the formula book with crafting a formula copy. They aren't the same thing.They are exactly the same thing.
And, no, you're not always paying twice. You're paying once. Unless you hire an NPC. Then, of course, since you're hiring someone, you're going to pay more. That's just capitalism.
1) Buy a formula. For argument's sake, let's say it's a 1st level Formula. Pay 1gp.
2) Hire an NPC. Pay them 1gp for the access. Now you craft a copy. Pay anywhere between 5sp to 1gp.
3) You have a formula you've found, either in the loot pile of the dragon's hoard or the other Alchemist in your party. Now you craft a copy. Pay anywhere between 5sp to 1gp.Three different price ranges for three different levels of access depending on where in the world you're at.
They are not the same thing. One activity puts the formula in my formula book, the other gives me a copy of the formula.
Lets make it an example:
I'm an alchemist. I buy a 1st level frost vial formula for 1gp.
I now have a L bulk frost vial formula. If I want to put it in my fomula book, it takes me 1 hour, and costs nothing. Now I have a L bulk frost vial formula, and I also have it in my formula book for later use.
I could now keep the formula, or lend it, or whatever I want. If I do get rid of it, I'd just have the formula in my formula book. If, later on, I want to give someone access to a frost vial formula, I can either give them my formula book, or I can craft a L bulk frost vial formula and give them that.
That's how it' supposed to work. If we follow your point 1), we end up with only the L bulk formula, and it hasn't been copied into my formula book.
If we Craft a copy of it, we end up with two L bulk formulas of frost vial, and nothing has been copied into the formula book either.
Please tell me, in these two cases, how much does it cost to actually put the formula into my formula book and what the skill check is?
Your interpretation is just plain wrong by the reading of the rules and by simple common sense. In your 2nd case you're even making the Alchemist pay twice for no good reason.
I understand PFS works on different logic, but in that case I'd expect them to simply ban cross-PC item lending, or something.
|
|
I have not yet played a character that required Learning a Spell, but looking at it now they seem to be different styles. What is the point you are trying to make?
Please tell me, in these two cases, how much does it cost to actually put the formula into my formula book and what the skill check is?
You'll probably just have to tell me what you're getting at, rather than beating around the bush, because the checks and cost seem obvious to me.
I have not yet played a character that required Learning a Spell, but looking at it now they seem to be different styles. What is the point you are trying to make?
Please tell me, in these two cases, how much does it cost to actually put the formula into my formula book and what the skill check is?You'll probably just have to tell me what you're getting at, rather than beating around the bush, because the checks and cost seem obvious to me.
I haven't beat around the bush, I've been as direct as I can be.
How much does it cost to copy a formula into my formula book?
I'm not asking how much it costs to buy it, which is explained in the rules. Once I have the formula in hand, how much does it cost to copy it into my formula book?
Or do you expect Alchemists who buy formulae to carry them all in formula form, at the cost of 1L bulk per formula?
Like, I'm being genuine here ("common sense is rarely common", right?).
Explain to me why you think I'm wrong.
I've already explained, but fine:
I think you're wrong because you think Crafting the copy of a formula is the same thing as copying that formula into a Formula Book, when they are in fact two completely different things.
If I have a formula (L bulk item), and I craft a copy of it, I now have two formulae (two L bulk items). I can prepare alchemical items following them as long as I have them, but if I lose them, I can't craft those items anymore.
If I have a formula, and I copy it into my formula book, I now have the formula (by itself, as L bulk item) and I've also got it copied in my formula book (which can cold 100 formulae). If I lose the formula (the L bulk item), I can still craft the item because I have the formula in my book. If I lose my book, well, then I can't.
Hence, my earlier question to you:
If I buy a formula (the L bulk item), how much does it cost to put that formula (copying it) into my Formula book?
|
|
What is the point you are trying to make?
No hidden agenda, no "point"; I just find your position unconvincing.
The language between the two activities is so different. There isn't even a "Learn a Formula" skill function, exploration mode, or downtime activity! (Compare to: "Learn a Spell" in General Skills)
And maybe your response to that is that "the CRB is disorganized" - which is also a weak argument, and could be used as "evidence" for either side.
All that said, rainzax, I think it might be a good idea if you posted this question in the Pathfinder Society forum.
Even if it is like you and I think it goes down, I don't know if the PFS authorities would be ok with two PCs exchanging formulae willy nilly.
But I've never played PFS so I don't know how the process of asking goes.
The text of the rules only talks about paying money to purchase the formula or hire an NPC. If you're not paying for the formula itself, it doesn't make sense to charge the player again anyways.
Contrast with Learn A Spell, which specifically calls out the act of learning the spell having its own cost above and beyond whatever you pay to acquire the spell.
Under that interpretation, it's apparently impossible to simply give someone a formula, because you apparently have to pay the same price anyways. I feel like the reasons that doesn't make sense are self evident.
|
|
And maybe your response to that is that "the CRB is disorganized" - which is also a weak argument, and could be used as "evidence" for either side.
I never mentioned this once, and in fact, have pointed out in other threads that organization is irrelevant, since this is the first edition published with Ctrl+F and online reference as a focus.
How much does it cost to copy a formula into my formula book?
I will repeat myself from earlier as well, then. You've already replied to this post once before, hence my trepidation:
1) Buy a formula. For argument's sake, let's say it's a 1st level Formula. Pay 1gp.
2) Hire an NPC. Pay them 1gp for the access. Now you craft a copy. Pay anywhere between 5sp to 1gp.
3) You have a formula you've found, either in the loot pile of the dragon's hoard or the other Alchemist in your party. Now you craft a copy. Pay anywhere between 5sp to 1gp.Three different price ranges for three different levels of access depending on where in the world you're at.
Regarding "Craft" vs "Copy", we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Anytime you are creating something, whether it's a scroll, a formula, what-have-you, you need to Craft it. If you have a formula in front of you (such as from a dragon's hoard, a party member, what-have-you), then that spares you the "access" cost. Now you just have to pay the Crafting cost. The benefit of paying that Crafting cost is eliminating the extra L Bulk item you'd otherwise have to be carrying around.
The text of the rules only talks about paying money to purchase the formula or hire an NPC. If you're not paying for the formula itself, it doesn't make sense to charge the player again anyways.
Contrast with Learn A Spell, which specifically calls out the act of learning the spell having its own cost above and beyond whatever you pay to acquire the spell.
Under that interpretation, it's apparently impossible to simply give someone a formula, because you apparently have to pay the same price anyways. I feel like the reasons that doesn't make sense are self evident.
Basically this. The normal cost here is acquiring access to the formula you want to copy either in an adventure or paying some NPC who has it to let you copy the formula. In the case of two or more alchemists if they agree to swap for free there is no cost there just the time investment for each recipe they are copying. I think the cases where you will have two alchemists willing to do this without a charge is low enough that it is a non issue.
I think one reason copying a formula is treated so differently than learning a spell is because alchemy is fully mundane the formula is literally a recipe. You are not making some item you are just jotting down a recipe from somebodies recipe book. It doe not require any arcane reagents or special substances just a pen and paper and an hour.
The way I see it, you don't need much to learn a new formula. Someone can teach it to you, and then you move on. Simple. No need to fuss over time and money, or other resources.
However, if you want a physical copy of the formula, that's going to take time and money as you need to Craft it.
|
Formulas are instructions for making items with the
Craft activity. You can usually read a formula as long
as you can read the language it’s written in, though you
might lack the skill to Craft the item. Often, alchemists
and crafting guilds use obscure languages or create codes
to protect their formulas from rivals.
Right. NPC alchemists clearly consider intellectual property to be a big thing.
You can buy common formulas at the Price listed on
Table 6–13, or you can hire an NPC to let you copy
their formula for the same Price. A purchased formula
is typically a schematic on rolled-up parchment of light
Bulk. You can copy a formula into your formula book in
1 hour, either from a schematic or directly from someone
else’s formula book. If you have a formula, you can
Craft a copy of it using the Crafting skill. Formulas for
uncommon items and rare items are usually significantly
more valuable—if you can find them at all!
This is referring to two different activities:
- Copy into your book, specifically taking one hour, no check or raw material costs mentioned. The price is explicitly for either intellectual property, or for a fancy schematic. (This is like one of those things where you can buy a video game either with a fancy box or on Steam, but the price is the same.)
- Craft (p. 244) a standalone schematic from a formula you already have access to. Crafting by normal rules takes 4 days just to get started, and already requires a formula, so you'd actually be paying twice, first to gain access to the formula and then a second time to Craft your copy.
So it seems to me like two alchemists who are willing to trade (say, two PCs in PFS) could just swap formulas without cost. Perhaps a silver piece for some extra ink.
|
|
Opinion time!
Since it says "If you have a Formula, you can Craft a copy of it..." that tells me everything I need to know.
It specifically says that you Craft a new Formula and to Craft ANYTHING you are directed to use the Crafting rules outlined in the Skills Chapter except where the rules state otherwise such as the bit about the 1 hour Crafting time.
Look at it this way, in order for two Alchemists to trade copies of their Formulas you will need to do one of two things:
1) Spend an hour using the Craft Skill (Paying all associated costs for the item you're crafting, roll the relevant Check and compare results against the DC, and then see the Formula Cost guidelines for Materials Cost), and then exchange your newly created Formula for one made by the other Alchemist. Each Alchemist will have to pay the raw materials equal to half the items price on their own.
2) Lend each other their own Formula books in such a situation as both books can be read and understood by both Alchemists on their own who then go about the work of spending 1 hour to Craft a copy of any of the varying Formulas. Again, they'll still need to make the Craft Skill Check for crafting and pay the cost of the materials which are derived from the value of the item in question.
When they say "copy" what they are actually saying is that EVERY Formula in the game counts as a Formula for ITSELF. Normally to Craft a Copy of something you need access to the original Formula already or instead first Reverse Engineer the item itself. Formulas eliminate the need to have a given named Formula in order to make... themselves, it kills a recursive downward spiral of rules that would otherwise occur.
Just because it doesn't list the cost associated with copying it DOES then point you to the section of the rules that adjudicate the Cost of the Craft Activity. If the rules meant to indicate that you SHOULD ignore the Cost component of the Crafting Skill Activity you use for this, it would absolutely need to state that. The reason it doesn't touch on the pricing is that pricing will always vary depending on the Level of the Formula and if the Alchemist Fails the Crafting Check to Craft said Formula.
Do you guys really think you need to have a physical copy of a schematic to be considered having learned a formula? That's not only highly unrealistic, but extraordinarily tedious too!
I really don't believe that was the intent of the developers.
I think it far more likely that one craftsperson could simply spend time teaching a character how to make something. Except for time, and possibly some demonstration materials, it wouldn't require any appreciable resources.
If you're going to make a schematic of a formula, or copy something to your formula book, then use the rules for that, but the mere sharing of knowledge doesn't necessarily need a hard copy.
Unfortunately the Crafting rules are pretty clear that if you don't have a Formula on hand for the item you quite literally can't craft it. So yes, sharing knowledge unfortunately does require hard copies.
Since it says "If you have a Formula, you can Craft a copy of it..." that tells me everything I need to know.
One thing your analysis misses is that the sentence describing Crafting a copy of a formula is distinct from the one talking about copying it into a formula book.
It doesn't make sense to assume they're the same thing, otherwise they wouldn't both need to be described.
A formula book is a hard drive and two alchemists can network them to transfer formulas. Or you can craft a formula on detachable media, which takes time and money per the crafting rules.