So, the rogue. A d8 HD, 3/4 base attack class that, in combat, contributes only with an attack roll.
I've heard talk of increasing their HD and base attack, and I like the thought behind it, but I've come up with a slightly different, unique-but-still-hopefully-simple option:
1. A flat, untyped bonus to AC like the monk.
2. A bonus on attack rolls against enemies that are eligible for sneak attacks equal to 1/2 rogue level (minimum +1).
I am fine with the rogue being less durable than a fighter, as well as less accurate in normal situations. I am also, to a point, okay with rogues being less efficient in combat in exchange for being significantly more efficient outside of it.
The AC bonus helps a little, and the attack bonus essentially makes them a 5/4 base attack class in the right scenarios, while still keeping their attack progression behind full base attack classes.
It feels like a simple fairly elegant solution that doesn't go too far. If I adjust some of the rogue talents (like making the decent ones good and the cool-but-meh ones free every few levels?) and how sneak attacks work, I think it'll go a long way. Thoughts?
The unchained rogue is "good enough". If I were to change anything, I'd maybe give it a good fortitude save. A melee-focused class should never have a bad fortitude save.
If you want d10 and full BAB on a rogue-like character, play a Slayer. Oh yeah, they have good Fortitude saves as well.
I give them full BAB on sneak attacks. For AC, I have a talent that allows the rogue to substitute a Bluff roll (with some limitations).
For the Fort save, take Twist Away. It's only 1/day, but because you get to use your Dex instead of Con as well, it's a big bonus. I allow this and a bunch of other roguey feats as talents.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, the rogue. A d8 HD, 3/4 base attack class that, in combat, contributes only with an attack roll.
I've heard talk of increasing their HD and base attack, and I like the thought behind it, but I've come up with a slightly different, unique-but-still-hopefully-simple option:
1. A flat, untyped bonus to AC like the monk.
2. A bonus on attack rolls against enemies that are eligible for sneak attacks equal to 1/2 rogue level (minimum +1).I am fine with the rogue being less durable than a fighter, as well as less accurate in normal situations. I am also, to a point, okay with rogues being less efficient in combat in exchange for being significantly more efficient outside of it.
The AC bonus helps a little, and the attack bonus essentially makes them a 5/4 base attack class in the right scenarios, while still keeping their attack progression behind full base attack classes.It feels like a simple fairly elegant solution that doesn't go too far. If I adjust some of the rogue talents (like making the decent ones good and the cool-but-meh ones free every few levels?) and how sneak attacks work, I think it'll go a long way. Thoughts?
Some hurdles Rogues must leap through:
1. Damage even with Sneak Attack is generally underwhelming. It encourages Two Weapon Fighting which lowers your odds of hitting even more :(2. Positioning for Sneak Attack is typically ill advised for our D8 poor Fort save, light armor wielding thief.
3. Feinting kind of sucks and requires too much investment.
4. A dark alley is the worst place for a non-darkvision Rogue
5. Poor Will Save :(
6. Most Rogue Talents are downright awful.
7. Skills are underwhelming and magic is often more reliable/accomplish more. Rogues get little to no skills synergy. 8 Skill points a level simply means you are average compared to anybody else that drops a point in a skill.
Unchained helps a ton with both Accuracy and AC through Debilitating Injury. Problem is that Skill Unlocks were/are kind of a flop so for out of combat utility, a Ranger/Alchemist/Bard still bring more to the table. This is pretty critical since Out of Combat is where the Rogue SHOULD shine if their combat potential is only supposed to be mediocre or average at best.
Spheres of Might Rogues are pretty neat since it decouples martials from the full attack paradigm and actually makes Rogues good at stealing in the middle of combat.
To address a few points:
-yeah, the unchained rogue is okay. I am not a fan of Debilitating Injury, though. An effective bonus to AC and attack rolls that only works after you've made a successful sneak attack feels weak. Plus, it's one more status effect-esque modifier to keep track of. A flat bonus makes for easier bookkeeping and a more potent boost.
-Offensive Defense is nice...but I'd prefer it *plus* something else. Especially since a rogue is left so far behind in the mid levels in terms of AC, and the diminishing returns AC brings at higher levels.
-I've been playing around with the idea to allow players to allocate their base saving throw bonuses as they see fit, as long as their class's "good" saves are tied for the highest. So a lvl5 rogue could have +2/+2/+2, or +1/+3/+3, etc)
-I just dropped the attack penalties for Two Weapon Fighting. So rogues can attack at full accuracy (which, again, is now higher than a full BAB class) and significantly outstrip their ally in average damage...if they're okay with standing totally still for a full round with that d8 hit die.
-feinting (and demoralizing) are move actions in my games. They're just not on the level with tripping or disarming. The improved feats will make that in place of an attack instead if you want.
-concealment doesn't make a sneak attack impossible.
-I've been revising rogue talents as needed, and been giving out some of the more mundane, cool-but-not-great ones for free every few levels.
-been working on something like skill unlocks and special feats for non-magical classes, like using base Stealth to hide from scent or divinations, Sleight of Hand to steal a spell slot, or a special sword technique that lets you cut time and space, etc.
So...hopefully this all helps?
Wow. That's a lot of changes. Those aren't tweaks, that's a whole new class.
Why, though, does a Rogue deserve to be 5/4 BAB for Sneak Attack?
What about being a Rogue leads to a scaling defense bonus?
Rogues can do Sneak Attack to targets with concealment now, too?
Why not just make them Full BAB, all good saves, and have Sneak Attack be an untyped bonus for every attack? Might as well give them 9th level casting, too. And they automatically get a rank in every skill, every level. And they are immune to damage.
Or, just play a different class that does at least one thing you want correctly... instead of picking the Rogue, then literally changing every single thing about it.
The scaling armor bonus on the Monk is because they can't wear armor. The Rogue can.
A Rogue is one TRAIT (combat OR regional) away from wearing the Mithral Breastplate without penalty. That scaling AC bonus for a Rogue is bogus.
Tell them to buy better armor and to stop complaining.
Why do they get extra attack bonuses for attacks that already get extra damage? If you want Studied Target, be a Slayer.
The Rogue is supposed to be hiding in the shadows, waiting for his target to open themselves up for that perfect stab in the back. Springing out of hiding into a flanking position, gets in a quick yet fierce jab, and dips back into cover.
They don't get full BAB or good armor or good Fort saves because they are freaking Rogues... that's it. Just a thief. And thieves aren't fighters.
Why try make them into something they are not? There are a million other classes to choose from... why choose a Rogue if you clearly don't want to be a Rogue?
The Rogue is supposed to be hiding in the shadows, waiting for his target to open themselves up for that perfect stab in the back. Springing out of hiding into a flanking position, gets in a quick yet fierce jab, and dips back into cover.
Cool. So Spring Attack? Earliest he can get it is 7th, maybe 6th level if you hold onto your combat trick talent. Depends on favorable terrain and ample amounts of cover which may or may not be available.
They don't get full BAB or good armor or good Fort saves because they are freaking Rogues... that's it. Just a thief. And thieves aren't fighters.
Rogues actually suck at stealing compared to their Full BAB replacements like Slayers or even Alchemists/Investigators since Steal is based on their attack bonus. Unless you mean out of combat theft which is done better by those people above and also Bards.
Why try make them into something they are not? There are a million other classes to choose from... why choose a Rogue if you clearly don't want to be a Rogue?
The Rogue has no identity as it is...so they need SOMETHING.
...how much more useless did the fighter come when ylu started to add to the Rogue?
You can rest assured that the fighter gets just as many tweaks, adjustments and homebrew attention.
That's a lot of changes. Those aren't tweaks, that's a whole new class.
Most of those tweaks are either to my games as a whole or are accompanied by a similar amount of adjustments in other areas, so it all balances out, more or less.
Why, though, does a Rogue deserve to be 5/4 BAB for Sneak Attack?
Mmmath? The whole idea of a rogue in combat seems to be "you can't hit as hard usually, but when you can line it up just right, you do more". Except they never really do. That -25% chance to hit compared to a fighter really drops their average damage output, even when sneak attacks apply. This way seems to allow them to to actually come out ahead in those instances when they can.
What about being a Rogue leads to a scaling defense bonus?
I was looking at the swashbuckler and duelist and those guys, but all their defensive options are weird and add complexity. This one start slow, stays quasi-relevant and is easy to implement.
Rogues can do Sneak Attack to targets with concealment now, too?
So a rogue can effectively fight in a dark alley? Yes. That was always silly.
Why not just make them Full BAB, all good saves, and have Sneak Attack be an untyped bonus for every attack? Might as well give them 9th level casting, too. And they automatically get a rank in every skill, every level. And they are immune to damage.
Or, just play a different class that does at least one thing you want correctly... instead of picking the Rogue, then literally changing every single thing about it.
I'm going to have to ask for an apology, here. That was unnecessary and rude. If you don't like the idea, fine. But you seem to be implying that you not only disagree, but that the idea is stupid and I am as well, for coming up with such a ridiculous concept.
Don't reduce my idea to absurdisms. Don't insult me with subtext. Thank you.
The scaling armor bonus on the Monk is because they can't wear armor. The Rogue can.
I feel like, between getting a +3-5 or your Wisdom modifier to AC, the latter is much more valid. But I didn't want to give them Int or Cha to AC or anything, either.
A Rogue is one TRAIT (combat OR regional) away from wearing the Mithral Breastplate without penalty. That scaling AC bonus for a Rogue is bogus.
Hm...good point. It only works if you're wearing light or no armor, or some other such limitation.
I don't do traits, though. So. No worries there.Why do they get extra attack bonuses for attacks that already get extra damage? If you want Studied Target, be a Slayer.
Feel like I addressed this above.
The fact that Slayers are so much more viable is rather telling, in my opinion.The Rogue is supposed to be hiding in the shadows, waiting for his target to open themselves up for that perfect stab in the back. Springing out of hiding into a flanking position, gets in a quick yet fierce jab, and dips back into cover.
And I agree with that, as said in my original post. To a point.
They don't get full BAB or good armor or good Fort saves because they are freaking Rogues... that's it. Just a thief. And thieves aren't fighters.
That feels extremely limiting from a narrative perspective. And I don't think mechanical balance should be justified with narrative, either. It leads to a lot of problems and fallacies, in my experience.
Why try make them into something they are not? There are a million other classes to choose from... why choose a Rogue if you clearly don't want to be a Rogue?
Because the rogue is regarded as the worst class and I wanted to make it better. Because my table doesn't use 90% of the extra stuff they made up later on, like gunslingers and aliens and cat people and cleric/fighters that somehow aren't cleric/fighters. Because I want to and I can. Because I think I have a good head for math and game design and my system mastery has taken me to this point with very little problems so far.
I'm not really sure what your deal is. You don't have to post in this thread if it bothers you so much. I feel like a large portion of your critique was unwarranted at best and sarcastically hostile at worst.
I will disagree on the Rogue being a weak class...I know it is not the right thread, but what were the tweaks to the fighter?
Math would suggest that the rogue is not a great class. I don't really see how it's up for debate. Maybe they're not the "worst" in your games, but there's *got* to be room for improvement.
Being able to assign base save mods in different areas helped the fighter's Will save, and reducing the feat tax (every character starts with several feats for free, feats automatically upgrade into their improved and greater forms, etc) helped a lot.
Then giving Bravery a big, crazy boost. Doubling the bonus, allowing the bonus to eventually apply to other things (mind-effecting, sickened, etc) and allowing the fighter to downgrade conditions (frightened to shaken, nauseated to sickened) or ignore them for a short while (dominated, stunned or dead).
When your high-level fighter has several different combat options, can cut through the fabric of reality itself and is so tough that they keep on ticking even after they're technically dead, they are significantly less boring to play. And, in my opinion, areally a more fitting companion for the craziness that high levels of spellcasting inevitably bring.
And I agree with the concept, Cavall. I still think that Rogues struggle with accuracy, which in turn Hertz there damage output, but yes. Their defense is the most obviously problematic issue. I I cannot see the class with a d-10 hit die, nor can I see it wearing heavier armor. At least, I can't see that being the norm across the majority of characters that take the class.
Some kind of boost to AC is needed, but at the same time, attack bonuses scale much faster that AC does, so there will probably come a point at later levels where even this bonus doesn't really matter anymore.
Still, I think it's reasonable to give them an average of 1hp/level less than fighters and paladins and rangers. I'm fine with the rogue being an opportunistic combatant that should choose there engagements intelligently and might be better off spending a turn or two positioning themselves before striking. At least at lower levels, I'm fine with that sort of approach. I just believe that it should actually yield meaningful, impactful results when they do so.
If someone wants to take advantage of my changes and pick up a second weapon and tumble into place and make that devastating full attack, they can feel free to do so. but then they'll need to deal with consequences of that choice. If they decide to reduce their damage output and stay mobile, that ought to have its pros and cons as well.
I will apologize for being unnecessarily abrasive.
You aren't wrong about accuracy scaling faster than AC.
But the Rogue is supposed to be smarter than your average bear... this is portrayed, in part, by their absurd skills per level. Anyways, smart positioning, and more importantly, maintaining mobility is how they survive.
Things like Fast Getaway and the Scout archetype's Scout's Charge exist for this very reason. Also Spring Attack... yes, it comes online late in the game. But that is because of ridiculous feat taxes and they [feat taxes] are their own issue. Spring Attack should probably be a Rogue Talent that bypasses the prerequisites, or even better, includes them.
One Rogue Talent that gives Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack available at level 4 (treating their Rogue level as their BAB for the sake of prerequisites). That makes sense to me, and would be what I consider a "tweak" to the Rogue class.
I've rolled the benefits of Dodge and Mobility into one feat to cut down on the tax, there. And allowed it to be used in combination with a charge action. And vital strike.
Another issue is the lackluster mechanics of an actual retreat in this system. Turn-based combat with tactical movement makes trying to run away completely pointless in a lot of situations. But I consider that issue to be one partly of the system but mostly of GM's not understanding encounters, what they are and when they begin and end.
The "rogue is smart = rogue is played smart" is not a sound argument. Any character can be smart. Any that isn't primarily intelligence-based can be dim. Not every rogue is a witticism-quipping, rapier-wielding thief in the night. You've got your brutes with scarred knuckles and your trecherous courtly advisors, the hardened, practical mercenary and the scoundrel with big dreams.
The rogue, mechanically, as a class, is a secondary combatant with an "opportunistic" tilt, a focus on agility and lots of skills. I think that's about the only sort of blanket statement I'd feel is going to be accurate most of the time.
My issue with the rogue, mechanically, is that the class has next to nothing to provide in combat beyond attacking; no spells or bardic song or any form of expendable resources beyond items and equipment.
A rogue has to choose their targets carefully. Maneuver around the field, bide their time, strike and fade back into the shadows.
Fine.
Great.
...but it should mean something when they do all that, then.
Lvl8 rogue with Dex20 and two +1 shortswords...+10/+10/+5/+5 (5d6+1)
Lvl8 fighter with Str18 and +2 greatsword +13/+8 (2d6+20)
Against an AC22, that's an average of 24 damage from the rogue and 25.7 from the fighter. If they're each only attacking once, it's 10.2 and 16.2.
So, when the rogue is set up juuust right to pull off the dreaded TWF full sneak attack...they do *ALMOST* as much damage as a fighter. Who also has 20-40% more hp and 3-4 more AC than the rogue.
Again, I'm fine with the rogue being an opportunistic fighter. But they should actually excel at that, not come close to matching other class's average performance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A few tweaks that would probably go a long way for the Rogue is:
1. Counting the Rogue’s level as BAB for the sake of prerequisites for combat feats.
2. Allowing the Combat Trick Rogue Talent to be taken as many times as you want.
3. Allowing Minor/Major Magic Rogue Talents to be taken as many times as you want.
4. Give them the Weapon Training, Fast Stealth, Fast Getaway, and Offensive Defense Rogue Talents for free, as part of the class.
This helps their accuracy, survivability, and provides a scaling defense.
I've made most of the rogue talents substantially better, which does go quite a long way to fixing things. Also they get a scaling bonus (+1 at 2nd, 5th, etc) to some Will saves and full BAB for CMD and sneak attack purposes. And sneak attack special effects stack with each other (RAW is one at a time).
I'm pondering an (advanced?) talent that gives you 20% concealment for 1 round in return for a swift action. Helps with survivability and has that sneaky shadowy feel.
All on UnRogue, obviously.
I will disagree on the Rogue being a weak class...I know it is not the right thread, but what were the tweaks to the fighter?Math would suggest that the rogue is not a great class. I don't really see how it's up for debate. Maybe they're not the "worst" in your games, but there's *got* to be room for improvement.
Being able to assign base save mods in different areas helped the fighter's Will save, and reducing the feat tax (every character starts with several feats for free, feats automatically upgrade into their improved and greater forms, etc) helped a lot.
Then giving Bravery a big, crazy boost. Doubling the bonus, allowing the bonus to eventually apply to other things (mind-effecting, sickened, etc) and allowing the fighter to downgrade conditions (frightened to shaken, nauseated to sickened) or ignore them for a short while (dominated, stunned or dead).
When your high-level fighter has several different combat options, can cut through the fabric of reality itself and is so tough that they keep on ticking even after they're technically dead, they are significantly less boring to play. And, in my opinion, areally a more fitting companion for the craziness that high levels of spellcasting inevitably bring.And I agree with the concept, Cavall. I still think that Rogues struggle with accuracy, which in turn Hertz there damage output, but yes. Their defense is the most obviously problematic issue. I I cannot see the class with a d-10 hit die, nor can I see it wearing heavier armor. At least, I can't see that being the norm across the majority of characters that take the class.
Some kind of boost to AC is needed, but at the same time, attack bonuses scale much faster that AC does, so there will probably come a point at later levels where even this bonus doesn't really matter anymore.
Still, I think it's reasonable to give them an average of 1hp/level less than fighters and paladins and rangers. I'm fine with the rogue being an opportunistic combatant that should choose...
Okay, first thinks first. There is a tweak to Rogues and it is called UC. It is fine that you don't like how Debilitating Injury works but it its pretty unique and I can't understand how one modifier is too hard to track in a game where full casters exists.
When I talk about Rogues I talk about UC ones. I'm currently building a Rogue for a campaign and I will let him fight against an CR 10 Encounter like you did with an AC of 22.This is my build:
Class/LvL: UC Rogue 8 (Knife Master / Scout)
Race: Ratfolk (Surface Sprinter, Unnatural, Swarming, Tinker)
Abilities: 8 / 18 / 14 / 12 / 12 / 7 (Standard Fantasy: 15)
Traits:
Ancestral Weapon
Fate´s Favored
Reactionary
Feats:
1nd: Scurrying Swarmer
3rd: Deifice Obedience (Pharasma)
5th: Flensing Strike
7th: Outflank
Rogue Talent:
2nd: Combat Trick (Two-Weapon Fighting)
4th: Bleeding Attack
6th: Weapon Training
8th: Trap Spotter
For Items he will have a +2 Silver Dagger / Masterwork Silver Dagger and a Belt of Incredible Dexterity … +21/+20/+16/+15 (1d3+4d8+6+2-1 / 1d3+4d8+6+-1/)
Against an AC22 you have a 95% Chance to hit.
Now the AC is 18 because of Debilitating Injury and you have a 95% Chance to hit with your off hand, 90% with the third and 85% with the fourth attack, that’s an average of 91,65 damage without crit chance.
With only one attack he does 29 damage, and after Flensing Strike and Debilitating Injury for Disoriented on your last hit you gain an effective +6 AC and DR 2 against that target.
All this is accomplished only whit two Magic Items, and no buffs/debuffs nor a Tailblade.
I think UCRogue is fine, you have no accurate issues and you can use Twist Away to bump up your Fortitude Save. Your only weakness is the Will save but that’s not Rogue exclusive.
That is...a lot of work to apparently say "unchained works fine, no need to change anything."
That is... what a Rogue looks like. There isn't anything special or extreme about it, just a solid/practical Rogue build.
Unchained classes are still highly optional, even if often preferred. If you are talking about the unchained version, then you need to specify that in your posts or else people are going to misunderstand you
I mean, if you’re going to write walls of text, then I think you could spare the time to at least add a “u” to the uRogue.
That is... what a Rogue looks like. There isn't anything special or extreme about it, just a solid/practical Rogue build.
Kind of what I thought, yeah. Just seems like a lot of effort in regards to math and word count to make a pretty basic point.
Unchained classes are still highly optional, even if often preferred. If you are talking about the unchained version, then you need to specify that in your posts or else people are going to misunderstand you
I mean, if you’re going to write walls of text, then I think you could spare the time to add a “u” to the uRogue.
I wasn't talking about the unchained rogue or the original one, specifically. One is bad, the other is not great. Just had two fairly straightforward, simple ideas to give either/or a boost.
And as far as "walls of text" go, I try to be concise and clear while still conveying my full point. If any thread of mine is just too long to deal with for anyone, I would implore them not to bother.
The people who know the formulas can rattle that $#!+ out with the quickness... it's no more extra work than doing any other mundane task correctly. Throw away the empty toilet paper roll and replace it with a new one. Take your dishes to the sink after you eat. Include the evidence to support your position in a debate...
This game is a lot of math. And it takes knowing how to play the game to make the Rogue viable... without completely rewriting the class to make another Slayer.
The people who know the formulas can rattle that $#!+ out with the quickness...Include the evidence to support your position in a debate...
I know the formulas, but I still need to type them out.
And sure, include supporting evidence. But a bunch of data that has nothing to do with your claim?At any rate, I feel like you have specifically made it abundantly clear that you do not care for this particular attempt to establish better balance, raise the bar, whatever. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. The vast majority of players with solid system mastery I've heard from agree that the Rogue is bad and the unchained version is less so but still needs work. I've heard a variety of opinions here. Not quite sure what I'll do the next time someone wants to roll up a Rogue just yet.
This is my build:
Class/LvL: UC Rogue 8 (Knife Master / Scout)
Race: Ratfolk (Surface Sprinter, Unnatural, Swarming, Tinker)
Abilities: 8 / 18 / 14 / 12 / 12 / 7 (Standard Fantasy: 15)Traits:
Ancestral Weapon
Fate´s Favored
ReactionaryFeats:
1nd: Scurrying Swarmer
3rd: Deifice Obedience (Pharasma)
5th: Flensing Strike
7th: Outflank
Rogue Talent:
2nd: Combat Trick (Two-Weapon Fighting)
4th: Bleeding Attack
6th: Weapon Training
8th: Trap Spotter
For Items he will have a +2 Silver Dagger / Masterwork Silver Dagger and a Belt of Incredible Dexterity … +21/+20/+16/+15 (1d3+4d8+6+2-1 / 1d3+4d8+6+-1/)
Against an AC22 you have a 95% Chance to hit.
Now the AC is 18 because of Debilitating Injury and you have a 95% Chance to hit with your off hand, 90% with the third and 85% with the fourth attack, that’s an average of 91,65 damage without crit chance.
With only one attack he does 29 damage, and after Flensing Strike and Debilitating Injury for Disoriented on your last hit you gain an effective +6 AC and DR 2 against that target.
All this is accomplished only whit two Magic Items, and no buffs/debuffs nor a Tailblade.
I think UCRogue is fine, you have no accurate issues and you can use Twist Away to bump up your Fortitude Save. Your only weakness is the Will save but that’s not Rogue exclusive.
I think...the wild part of all that is by dedicating all but one choice you have up to that point to combat, you become decent in melee(But only if you and someone else can get into melee or you are charging). I think it's a little strange to suggest Twist Away in a build that doesn't have it. It's also highly dependent on a single racial feature.
Yeah, Rogues suck. We know.
That build is a good Rogue build.
UnRogue, Rogue, doesn't matter. They aren't front-line combatants. Get used to it.
If you want Rogue stuff AND to be a decent front-liner... be a Slayer. They already made the tweaks for you.
UnRogue is pretty rad gestalt, though. If you want tweaks... try adding an entire second class. :)
UnRogue, Rogue, doesn't matter. They aren't front-line combatants. Get used to it.If you want Rogue stuff AND to be a decent front-liner... be a Slayer. They already made the tweaks for you.
Well they aren't back-line combatants either! :D
It'd be nice if they were atleast good at skills, but c'est la vie. I just shout to the moon and stars how great Spheres is and how it solved most of my issues.
Combat Reflexes, Longspear. Works for a lot of other 3/4 BAB classes/builds. It's a good start, with proven results, and takes very little investment.
One Combat, or Regional, trait away from wearing Mithral Breastplate without penalty. Buy a Mithral Buckler, just like everyone else.
A million ways to gain access to weapons real soldiers use... traits, races, and you can always spend a feat for something fancy (just like everyone else).
A pretty decent amount of completely different ways to lock in the Rogue’s precious Sneak Attack. Given how few classes rely on this gimmick, there is a surprising amount of support for its use.
Multiclass/dip for the tweaks that you seek... just like everyone else does with everything else.
Be a Phantom Thief and take Combat Trick as many times as you want.
I have exactly zero sympathy for the Rogue.
The best thing a Rogue has to offer is versatility. 90% of the flavor is completely up to how you roleplay your character.
Relying on Sneak Attack is a mistake. Don't go down that rabbit hole. If it means that much to you, grab the Scout archetype, and be done with it. The continued investment will just distract you from more important things.
The archetypes available are rich and splendid. Ripe with opportunity. The more crappy stuff you trade away for fun stuff, the better... just like Monks. Lol.
Multiclassing is your best friend. Fix your saves. Add some BAB. New and interesting ways to get Sneak Attack... like Dimensional Slide or Acid Splash. Neat things like Brawler's Flurry or Freebooter's Bane or Panache. All sorts of things that only make you better. All multiclassing does is slow down your Sneak Attack progression, which is not a big deal compared to what you can gain.
Four levels of UnRogue Pirate/Scout, three levels of Fighter Weapon Master, one level of Arcanist, four levels of UnRogue Pirate/Scout, a level of Inspired Blade, two levels of Ranger Freebooter... or whatever.
It is exactly as Rogue as you play it.
Part of what leads me to the vast array of houserules and custom classes/feats/spells/items is that I have an intense dislike of false options. If an option is so good that everyone takes it or so bad no one does, there's obviously something wrong. Because that's not a real choice, and ttrpg's are all about choice.
Clearly VoodistMonk's got a clear idea and a very strong opinion on this subject. I disagree, and I don't think anything they've said will sway me on this particular issue.
I'm going to implement both ideas for the next rogue my table. Right along with fighters that are actually brave, barbarians with free rage powers, sorcerers with escalated spell level slots, a bunch of automatic feats at lvl1, the Athletics skill and all the other things I've done over the years.
Asking for people's opinions and then flatly stating that nothing anyone says is going to sway you seems a little dismissive. But you do you, glad we had this entire discussion just so you can do exactly what you were going to do anyways.
Asking for people's opinions and then flatly stating that nothing anyone says is going to sway you seems a little dismissive...
Sorry, allow me too clarify: nothing that *you specifically* have said *thus far* has changed my mind.
I've gotten a better picture of the subject in general from this thread, though. There are some issues both ways that I've been made aware of now.Asking for opinions on these forums is always a long shot for me; I know my games, I know my table, and I trust my instincts. I'd probably say there's, at best, a 1 in 5 chance that anything said on these forums ever really opens my eyes and makes me want to change my stance. But each time that's happened, I've walked away with a new perspective that made the effort of reaching out absolutely worthwhile.
And that's not to say "I'm always right, no one has anything to teach me." It's just that my game is different from theirs, so they're going to be kind of flying blind when making suggestions. Same goes for when I'm the one making suggestions; I don't know their game.
It's kind of interesting. Based off of previous posts, I've kind of gotten the vibe that you and I may be cut from similar cloths. The way you approach the mechanics, the setting and the game as a whole seems to be a lot like my own approach. There are just a few key differences that means we probably won't see eye-to-eye very often. Maybe even less often than we do with those who approach the game from vastly different angles.
Part of it might be what seems to be an overall shift in your tone, recently. There just seems to be a lot of...scorn? And hey, I'm all for sifting through the dross to find a diamond, but it can be hard to come back for a second opinion if the first one felt like it was laced with veiled insults.
...the question you have not answered or left unstated was why does the Rogue in your opinion need the ability to do damage equal to the front liners?
The rogue does not have spells or abilities that allow them to meaningfully contribute to combat. In combat, they attack. That's what they can do.
A rogue is a martial character. But they have less base attack, less hit points and often less AC than other martial characters. So...what do they have? Skills and talents and a few other little things here and there. A rogue is an opportunist. But...when the opportunity arises, it seems reasonable to expect that they are more effective than their counterparts who maintain validity over a wider variety of situations.Is that clear?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're not wrong. I usually agree with your posts and generally respect your opinions.
I have noticed that I have been more abrasive lately. Not sure why. I don't mean for it to bleed over into my interactions with the online community. I have always been cynical, but I was previously more refined with my delivery. $#!+'s been weird lately, trying to pull myself out of a funk.
Quixote, I guess the question you have not answered or left unstated was why does the Rogue in your opinion need the ability to do damage equal to the front liners?
The answer is two-fold. It's that the Rogue doesn't bring enough to the table out of combat as well. Skills-wise you are trumped by the Bard, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Slayer, Ranger, Investigator(My gods are they so much better at Skills). Combat-wise, these classes bring more to the table as well as being more self-sufficient. In many cases, some of these classes can "copy" a similar Rogue build and perform more effectively.
Was I saying something?
So again we are always back to the same the core clasees have been out shined by the expansions. Has anyone every listed a list of things to add to the core classes to get them back to the expanded classes in abilities?
Well, most of the core classes are fine. The Qinggong Monk(And various other archetypes or Unchained) more or less fixes the Monk and the Fighter is in a playable state after the Weapon Master's handbook. If I had a remaining complaint, it's that you still need quite a bit of system mastery to make Monk/Fighter good. You need to know your options and going in blindly can accidentally create situations where the player is simply not having fun.
Even in Core, the Rogue holds up poorly compared to the Ranger or Bard. This is because those classes get class features that amplify their skills beyond what just a skill rank gives them. Bards get the best of both worlds, they get to make a bunch of their skills perform checks and change their stat dependency to Charisma on top of Bardic Knowledge. Then add spellcasting on top of all that. This is why people talk crap about the Rogue.
Here's a thought experiment as a first step. If you change all the once per day Rogue Talents to at will, would it be broken? The answer is not really. All the issues that plague the Rogue are still present, but now they can get a few magic tricks or use their skills in a different way.
You could...
-As an immediate action, grant yourself a 50% miss chance against a single attack[Shadow Duplicate]
-Get temp hp to avoid dying[Resiliency]
-Move without provoking so long as you hit your target with a melee attack[Positioning Attack]
-Cast Knock[Occult Dungeoneer]
-Cast one 1st level spell at will[Major Magic, requires Minor Magic]
-Make Drow Poison DC13 Fortitude for 25gp a dose that spoils within 24 hours[Knockout Queen]
-Cast Innocence[Innocent Facade]
-Reroll a skill check selected as a Skill Unlock and take the better.[Certainty]
-Make an ally attack an enemy as an immediate action when the Rogue misses[Assault Leader]
-Forgo sneak attack to make an enemy treat all other creatures as though they had concealment temporarily on a failed Fortitude save[Obscuring Blow]
-Dispel light sources[Extinguishing Strike]
None of these are really that wild. Advanced Talents are similar although a few should probably be once every minute or something along those lines. Even if you didn't, it still wouldn't even be that impressive either. Especially when you consider what post 10th level play is like compared to Full Casters or Half Casters.