Tarock's page

Frigid Touch still only gets to attack once. I'm not sure how it gets more SA?

I'm thinking of something a bit different; because I don't have a lot lined up for my highest level slots, I think I'll use a 1-h weapon with slashing grace, and use quicken spell to cast as well (like scorching ray, then next level magic missile to take advantage of surprise spells)

I meant Chill Touch

Tarock wrote:

Skrayper wrote:

Fiery Shuriken - that still only gets 1 SA, unless you're hitting a different targets with each one right? Or only with the first one regardless, like with Scorching Ray?

You get only 1 SA because your BAB is not the reason of multiple attacks.

" Sneak Attack: Can I add sneak attack damage to simultaneous attacks from a spell?

No. For example, scorching ray fires simultaneous rays at one or more targets, and the extra damage is only added once to one ray, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Spell-based attacks which are not simultaneous, such as multiple attacks per round by a 8th-level druid using flame blade, may apply sneak attack damage to each attack so long as each attack qualifies for sneak attack (the target is denied its Dex bonus or the caster is flanking the target). "

Frigid Touch gets more SA
Fiery Shuriken gets 1 SA

Yeah you are right.

But if you use a swift action i each round to fire a single Fiery Shuriken then you get a SA on every shuriken until you have used them all (if the conditions for SA is met).

The swift action per round Fiery Shuriken is a nice trick i wasen´t aware of, thank you.

Fiery Shuriken - that still only gets 1 SA, unless you're hitting a different targets with each one right? Or only with the first one regardless, like with Scorching Ray?

You get only 1 SA because your BAB is not the reason of multiple attacks.

" Sneak Attack: Can I add sneak attack damage to simultaneous attacks from a spell?

No. For example, scorching ray fires simultaneous rays at one or more targets, and the extra damage is only added once to one ray, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Spell-based attacks which are not simultaneous, such as multiple attacks per round by a 8th-level druid using flame blade, may apply sneak attack damage to each attack so long as each attack qualifies for sneak attack (the target is denied its Dex bonus or the caster is flanking the target). "

Frigid Touch gets more SA
Fiery Shuriken gets 1 SA

Druid > Cleric > Oracle , I would say.

Boring or fun is no good argument when you look at best performance.

Flensing Strike can reduce the natural armor bonus by a number of points equal to the number of sneak attack dice. Multiple strikes on the same foe do not stack the bleed damage, but the penalty to natural armor does stack. My question is, when the penalty to the ac is applyed, when I hit the target with a sneak attack or when he takes the bleed damage?

Flensing Strike

Your slashing sneak attacks tend to slice away swaths of skin and natural armor.

Prerequisite(s): Sneak attack +3d6, bleeding sneak attack rogue trick or bleed universal monster ability.

Benefit: When you successfully inflict sneak attack damage on a foe with a slashing weapon, your attack doesn’t go particularly deep, but you do carve away a significant portion of skin and flesh. If this sneak attack inflicts bleed damage, the victim of the sneak attack is sickened by the pain and has its natural armor bonus (if any) reduced by a number of points equal to the number of sneak attack dice you possess. These penalties persist as long as the bleed damage persists. Multiple strikes on the same foe do not stack the bleed damage, but the penalty to natural armor does stack, to a maximum penalty equal to the target’s normal full natural armor score.

My wife and I are going to be playing in a new Pathfinder campaign soon. She’s playing a rogue who will be fighting with two daggers while I will be playing a combat oriented alchemist. We are starting making our characters (at level 2) and I decided to be a vivisectionist with feral mutagen and I realized that not only do I have 3 attacks to her 2, but mine do quite a bit more damage, and I also have a sneak attack just like hers, which I will get on three attacks when we can flank enemies. On top of that, I get other cool powers too like formulae. I can even do stealth, because I took a trait to give it to me as a class skill, though I’m not as good at it as her.

So I feel like I do her thing better than she does, plus a lot of other cool stuff. That being the case, I think I’ve decided not to be a vivisectionist so that at least she can have sneak attacks all to herself. Is there something I’m missing here or does a vivisectionist alchemist cut too much into the rogue’s role with sneak attacks?

The Rogue is unfavored at level 2 but if you look closer that's only true on this level and only on specific circumstances.

First, you have to drink you Mutagen as a standard action, it last only 10 minutes per alchemist level and it takes 1 hour to brew a dose of mutagen.

If you would start at level 1 you would only have one attack and the Rogue had two. At level 3, the Rogue (if Unchained) get Dex to damage and later Debilitating Injury.

Natural attacks are favored in early levels but get weaker later.

I was a GM in a game with a Rogue and a Vivisectionist and they both have a lot of fun together. You always have your flanking partner, you can take Teamwork feats like Outflank and you could share your Greater Invisibility with your wife.

GotAFarmYet? wrote:

I will disagree on the Rogue being a weak class...I know it is not the right thread, but what were the tweaks to the fighter?

Math would suggest that the rogue is not a great class. I don't really see how it's up for debate. Maybe they're not the "worst" in your games, but there's *got* to be room for improvement.

Being able to assign base save mods in different areas helped the fighter's Will save, and reducing the feat tax (every character starts with several feats for free, feats automatically upgrade into their improved and greater forms, etc) helped a lot.
Then giving Bravery a big, crazy boost. Doubling the bonus, allowing the bonus to eventually apply to other things (mind-effecting, sickened, etc) and allowing the fighter to downgrade conditions (frightened to shaken, nauseated to sickened) or ignore them for a short while (dominated, stunned or dead).
When your high-level fighter has several different combat options, can cut through the fabric of reality itself and is so tough that they keep on ticking even after they're technically dead, they are significantly less boring to play. And, in my opinion, areally a more fitting companion for the craziness that high levels of spellcasting inevitably bring.

And I agree with the concept, Cavall. I still think that Rogues struggle with accuracy, which in turn Hertz there damage output, but yes. Their defense is the most obviously problematic issue. I I cannot see the class with a d-10 hit die, nor can I see it wearing heavier armor. At least, I can't see that being the norm across the majority of characters that take the class.
Some kind of boost to AC is needed, but at the same time, attack bonuses scale much faster that AC does, so there will probably come a point at later levels where even this bonus doesn't really matter anymore.
Still, I think it's reasonable to give them an average of 1hp/level less than fighters and paladins and rangers. I'm fine with the rogue being an opportunistic combatant that should choose...

Okay, first thinks first. There is a tweak to Rogues and it is called UC. It is fine that you don't like how Debilitating Injury works but it its pretty unique and I can't understand how one modifier is too hard to track in a game where full casters exists.

This is my build:

Class/LvL: UC Rogue 8 (Knife Master / Scout)
Race: Ratfolk (Surface Sprinter, Unnatural, Swarming, Tinker)
Abilities: 8 / 18 / 14 / 12 / 12 / 7 (Standard Fantasy: 15)

Traits:
Ancestral Weapon
Fate´s Favored
Reactionary

Feats:
1nd: Scurrying Swarmer
3rd: Deifice Obedience (Pharasma)
5th: Flensing Strike
7th: Outflank
Rogue Talent:
2nd: Combat Trick (Two-Weapon Fighting)
4th: Bleeding Attack
6th: Weapon Training
8th: Trap Spotter
For Items he will have a +2 Silver Dagger / Masterwork Silver Dagger and a Belt of Incredible Dexterity … +21/+20/+16/+15 (1d3+4d8+6+2-1 / 1d3+4d8+6+-1/)
Against an AC22 you have a 95% Chance to hit.
Now the AC is 18 because of Debilitating Injury and you have a 95% Chance to hit with your off hand, 90% with the third and 85% with the fourth attack, that’s an average of 91,65 damage without crit chance.
With only one attack he does 29 damage, and after Flensing Strike and Debilitating Injury for Disoriented on your last hit you gain an effective +6 AC and DR 2 against that target.
All this is accomplished only whit two Magic Items, and no buffs/debuffs nor a Tailblade.
I think UCRogue is fine, you have no accurate issues and you can use Twist Away to bump up your Fortitude Save. Your only weakness is the Will save but that’s not Rogue exclusive.

I finally had enough time to check out all your options and suggestions, and I tweeked my build quite a bit. I want to say thank you for all your great ideas and support.

At first I considered the Ninja. I checked the pros and cons and what I get is a small pool of Ki-Points (1/2 lvl + Cha-mod means only 5 on lvl 10 without additional investments) and the ability to get vanish/greater invisibility as a swift action plus some additional minor bonuses.

But I would lose the d8s on sneak attack (Knife Master), the sneak attack bonus on charge or after moving (Scout), the Dex to damage, Weapon Finesse and the Debilitating Injury (-4 to -8 AC/to hit after sneak attack). Furthermore I would only get one Rogue Talent and one Advanced Talent, and the Ninja Tricks are quite mediocre in comparison to the Rogue ones. Finally I would need to spent two Rogue Tricks to get Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade.

All things considered the Ninja seems to be a big downgrade and just not worth it.
Thats why I stayed with my UCRogue but made some adjustments.
Like Derklord said, I had far too many talents depending on sneak attack that don't stack well, so - Dispelling Attack being the weakest in my opinion - I cut that one out. Without Dispelling Attack the whole Magic Trick package is not worth it, especially when I am planning to get a high UMD anyway.

So here are my new ideas:

Name: UCR (placeholder)
Class/Lv: UC Rogue 16 (Knife Master / Scout)
Race: Halfling (Fleet of Foot, Dimdweller, Halfing Luck, Keen Sense and Fearless)
Abilities: 8 / 18 / 14 / 12 / 12 / 9
Traits:
Ancestral Weapon
Fate´s Favored
Reactionary
Feats:
1nd: Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd: Deifice Obedience (Pharasma)
5th: Skill Focus: Stealth
7th: Hellcat Stealth
9th: Flensing Strike
11th: Wasp Familiar
13th: Twist Away
15th: Extra Rogue Talent
Unchained Rogue Talent:
2nd: Trap Spotter
4th: Bleeding Attack
6th: Dampen Presence
8th: Combat Trick (ITWP)
10th: Double Debilitation
12th: Opportunist
14th: Stalker Talent (Surprise Strike)
16th: Skill Mastery
A second idea I had was not to focus on the whole stealth ability too much because it is never 100 % reliable. Thats why I searched for other ways to obtain sneak attack and I arrived at the Scurrying Swarmer feat.
As a Ratfolk you can occupy the same square as your frontliner and flank all day long. You can still use stealth if needed but movement gets a lot easier. You don't have to run around the enemy (eventually provoking AOOs) and you can stay in passage ways whiteout getting in the midst of thy enemys.

Name: The rat
Class/LvL: UC Rogue 16 (Knife Master / Scout)
Race: Ratfolk (Surface Sprinter, Unnatural, Swarming, Tinker)
Abilities: 8 / 18 / 14 / 12 / 12 / 7
Traits:
Ancestral Weapon
Fate´s Favored
Reactionary
Feats:
1nd:
3rd: Deifice Obedience (Pharasma)
5th: Flensing Strike
7th: Outflank
9th: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
11th: Wasp Familiar
13th: Twist Away
15th: Shake It Off
Unchained Rogue Talent:
2nd: Combat Trick (Two-Weapon Fighting)
4th: Bleeding Attack
6th: Weapon Training
8th: Trap Spotter
10th: Double Debilitation
12th: Opportunist
14th: Stalker Talent (Surprise Strike)
16th: Skill Mastery

What do you think might be the better build of those two?

Tarock wrote:

I use AoN as much as I use d20, and i double checked Bleeding Attack on AoN too, but it has a similar problem, it uses * but didn't use it for Bleeding Attack because they put it in a different category (Sneak Attack Talents) which don't exist in the books, which is quite confusing.

If you read the section above the lists, AoN is quite clear - it says "Some talents add effects to a rogue's sneak attack. Only one of these talents can be applied to an individual attack and the decision must be made before the attack roll is made.", and then they list all talents that work like that, followed by all talents that don't. When picking from a list that method is actually much more sensible then sorting them purely alphabetical, because you want to pick them seperately.

So I can use Slow Reactions because it is not listet under Sneak Attack Talents?

d20pfsrd.com is not a good rule source anyway, as the site often omits, changes, or adds text. I highly recommend to use aonprd.com for looking up rule options. It's way more accurate and doesn't sneak in 3PP options.

I use AoN as much as I use d20, and i double checked Bleeding Attack on AoN too, but it has a similar problem, it uses * but didn't use it for Bleeding Attack because they put it in a different category (Sneak Attack Talents) which don't exist in the books, which is quite confusing.

Nope. On any Sneak Attack, you can only apply one talent with an asterisk. That means you have to choose between Bleeding Attack, Double Debilitation, Crippling Strike, and Slow Reactions. That also means that you shouldn't have that many mutually exclusive talents.

There are two Bleeding Attacks on D20pfsrd

So the calculation is

AC 28 -> AC 22
to hit 20 -> to hit 12

or

AC 28 -> AC 16
to hit 20 -> to hit 18

But I think you are right, I shouldn´t have that many talents with an *.
I will check out the ninja or the Dashing Thief but you lose a lot with both options.

How are you locking in your Sneak Attack Damage? I think a Sneak Attack Character should have at least a couple of tricks for guaranteeing you will get to inflict those lovely extra d6s.

lvl 1

lvl 4
Scout’s Charge

lvl 5
+ 3/6 Stealth

lvl 7
Hellcat Stealth

lvl 8
Vanish, Skirmisher

I think that are enough options. Maybe Shadow´s Shroud is better than Hellcat Stealth but i´m not sure.
I could go the Feint or Dirty Trick rout but they are both pretty feat intensive.

Keep in mind that Halfling Luck, despite the name, does not give a luck bonus.

I'm no rogue expert, but I'd suggest trying to work in Iron Will, and possibly Great Fortitude. At higher levels, failing Fort or Will saves can be devastating.

I know Halfling Luck is not a luck bonus but I want to buy Lucky Horseshoe and later Stone of Good Luck.

Iron Will and Great Fortitude are okay feats. I hope Twist Away will fix my bad Fortitude save, for my Will save I can take the Familiar Unchained Rogue Talent. This can give me Iron Will + Alertness + tones of Skill Points and a second perception check.

Hello everyone,

I´m currently trying out a fun build for an Unchaind Rogue and I have a few ideas in mind how I can make it from lvl 1 to lvl 16 through a whole AP. There is no party setup as off yet, so I am just doing a benchmark build and will apply changes when or if I need to.
My build starts with a standard 15 point-buy plus 3 traits. I am limited to the paizo stuff so please no 3rd party or VMC.

Name: UCR (placeholder)
Class/Lv: UC Rogue 16 (Knife Master / Scout)
Race: Halfling (Fleet of Foot, Dimdweller, Halfing Luck, Keen Sense and Fearless)
Abilities: 8 / 18 / 14 / 12 / 12 / 9

Traits:
Ancestral Weapon
Fate´s Favored
Reactionary

Feats:
1nd: Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd: Deifice Obedience (Pharasma)
5th: Skill Focus: Stealth
7th: Hellcat Stealth
9th: Flensing Strike
11th: Extra Rogue Talent
13th: Twist Away
15th: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

Other Options:
Shadow´s Shroud, Out Flank (if I there is a buddy I can share it with), Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Wasp Familiar

Unchained Rogue Talent:
2nd: Slow Reactions
4th: Bleeding Attack
6th: Minor Magic (Detect Magic)
8th: Major Magic (Vanish)
10th: Double Debilitation
11th: Crippling Strike
12th: Opportunist
14th: Stalker Talent*
16th: Dispelling Attack

* Blind Spot, Perfect Vulnerability, Shadow's Speed, Signature Weapon, Strike the Unseen, Surprise Strike, Leave an Opening

Other Options:
Assault Leader, Combat Trick, Skill Mastery, Dampen Presence, False Attacker, Trap Spotter, Familiar

Rogue´s Edge:
1th: open
2nd: open
3rd: open

To be honest I didn`t know that the rogue had so much great options. The stalker talent is amazing and combined with Flensing Strike and Double Debilitation I can debuff just about everyone I manage to hit with a sneak attack.
For example:

UCR lvl 11 vs a Glabrezu after one sneak attack:

AC 28 -> AC 16
to hit 20 -> to hit 11

These are now the stats of a Babau Demon

Do you have any remarks or advice for my build or maybe even more options?
Can you guys estimate the value of talents like Dispelling Attack? Are they really worth taking?
And are these three Scout/Vanish/Hellcat Stealth good enough to achieve sneak attacks?

I am happy and thankful for every hint or tip you can get me.

If you can wait for lvl 10, you can take the Rogue Advanced Talents Stalker, to take a Vigilante Talent. Sniper is perfect for unlimited ranged sneak attacks.

Sniper (Ex): The vigilante can deal hidden strike damage with ranged attacks at any distance, rather than within 30 feet. Only a stalker vigilante of at least 6th level can select this talent.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I agree with Zot. You need a tank.

No no no. You never need a tank in Pathfinder. A tank doesn't make sense to play in Pathfinder, because with no threat system, you can't usually force the enemies to attack the tank.

Sry but i don´t get it

|.......M.M......|
|..M.M.M.M..|
|____......_____|
.........|T|.........
.........|P|.........
|------- P --------|
|.......P.P.P........|

T = Tank
P = Partymember
M = Monster

This is the situation in 80% of all Dungeons. In Pathfinder you have no aggro system but you have space to move. Ofc it is more complex like the example above but it shows how tanking in pathfinder works. In the remaining 20% you have a wizard that creates that situation.

Hello everyone,

I´m looking for good/interesting spells from the witches spell list for a wizard. I`m toying with the idea of a Samsaran wizard and i want to evaluate some options. Because it seems to be pretty unusual that wizards want spells form other arcane classes, there is not a lot of information for good options here on the boards.

Because the witch has a large spell list, I found a couple of really interesting ones. Yet I´m not sure which are the best options to take.
I´m looking more for utility than for blast spells and I tried to avoid spells with touch attacks.

Here is the list of spells I personally find worthwhile:

Augury and Divination
The Cure Wounds spells / Heal / Raise Dead
Remove/Delay - Desease/Blindness/etc
Ill Omen/Hermean Potential
Ironskin
Early Judgment
Mind Mazre
Free Spirit
Invoke Deity

So far there is no specific party around to consider but I don´t want to be a healer. I guess I just want to expand my options. UMD will not be part of my charakter.

Do you have other ideas or something to add? What are your favourite witch spells and why?

Hello all. I´am going to play a new campaign and I thought I'd try to play a Wizard. The big problem with Wizards are, they are just bad at the early levels. So I'm searching for a concept to help me trough these first few ones.
My main concerns are Durability and Longevity. After 3 rounds of combat you are out of fuel and left with a crappy crossbow and Cantrips. And defense wise you have low hp with low ac and low saving throws.

I have some ideas but no one convict me for 100%

1. Start with one level of Rouge and then go the arcane trickster route.
2. Take the Arcane Bomber or Spellslinger Archetype and maybe retrain them later
3. Take the Wood or Universalist Arcane School to throw things around
4. Have the rich parents trait and by a wand of Snowball or True Strike

Do you have other ideas and do you think one of the points can handle my low level problems?

Thanks for your help.

It is noted, that dual class is perfect for groups with fewer players. But I wonder if a two dual class pc-group is strong enough to handle a full module or AP and if not, what can I do that they can handle one?

Trait: Ancestral Weapon

My party triggered the "Cannibal Fury" event. On round 5 they were so frightful, that they teleport to there home in Magnimar and rest.

So they miss the essential monologue of Silas and where to find his brother. After that, Silas spirit doesn't have enough energy to maintain and is gone for a week.

If my party teleport back, they will not find any hind of what to do next and I ask my self what can I do.

First we play only once every 3 month so I dislike the idea, that they have to figure out what to do next for hours. Second I want punish them for just chicken out so the don't start to use teleport on every encounter that could be a challenge.

What would you do. Did you have an ideas?

btw sorry for my bad english